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On January 08 2011 04:54 stk01001 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 02:33 Inex wrote:On January 08 2011 01:52 Leviwtf wrote:
I feel like BW turned out to be "balanced" and "competitive" by complete mistake, not by careful planning by blizzard. It was just dumb luck, but look now we've ruined another thread comparing BW to SC2. Even if what you say is true, you can't deny the fact that the game was (and still IS) fun to watch. It was also fun to play. War3 was fun to play and watch, right now SC2 is neither fun to play nor to watch. I play protoss and trust me when I say 90% of my games are boring. Looking at youtube commentaries and replays isn't fun either. I can't name one memorable game in SC2, but I can tell you stories about games in BW or War3. It's still a new game, that is true, but Blizz should have evolved a bit and perfected the already established game mechanic. I remain optimistic about the expansion, but only time will tell. I love how people state their opinions as if it's fact. Let me correct you. SC2 is neither fun to play or watch for YOU. I, along with A LOT of other people, belive SC2 is a very fun game to play & watch. Also ROFL at saying WC3 is fun to watch and SC2 isn't.. You said you play protoss.. how come your playing the game if it isn't fun?
WC3 and SC in general focus on totally different things, so it's completely legit to find WC3 entertaining and SC2 not, just throwing that out here.
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Your Star Wars analogy is absurd and fundamentally incorrect.
Realize that the Blizzard that made Starcraft 1 is very different from the Blizzard that made Starcraft 2. Some people romanticize Blizzard as being this wonderful company that has hundreds of developers lovingly working on Starcraft 2 -- the same developers that brought the first game into the limelight. It's been ~ten years, and Blizzard has since merged with Activision, and made only World of Warcraft expansions for the majority of the period. Their Starcraft 2 team is small, and though I'm sure they are talented, I doubt many of them had anything to do with the development of the original title, and likely have their hands tied by the demonic CEO (and other members) of Activision.
Talk about sophisms... Some people romantize, but you certainly demonize - literally - Blizzard for making financially sound decision. This does not advance your point any further, nor prove anything.
My comment does not apply to the second half of your post though, which is quite true.
(But face it people, Star Wars was never any better than Avatar and the likes)
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I bought season tickets for GSL S2 and S3 and really tried enjoying it, I really did but to put it bluntly watching GSL is boring as fuck. Whether its players, map pool, or the game itself, something about the game is simply boring compared to broodwar. I stopped paying cash to watch boring games and instead went back to Bw.
Look at this. This happened in the game Kal v Really in the MSL Ro32
+ Show Spoiler +
Or this, from the same group in MSL Ro32 Kal v Shine.
+ Show Spoiler +
The energy and excitement in these matches is so intense, it seems like you just can't get the same feeling in sc2, and these are matches in Ro32!!!. The games from last nights OSL Ro8 were even crazier and the OSL semis + finals are going to be even better. Maybe its just me, but I think a lot of Koreans feel the same way, BW is simply more fun to watch.
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On January 08 2011 04:54 stk01001 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 02:33 Inex wrote:On January 08 2011 01:52 Leviwtf wrote:
I feel like BW turned out to be "balanced" and "competitive" by complete mistake, not by careful planning by blizzard. It was just dumb luck, but look now we've ruined another thread comparing BW to SC2. Even if what you say is true, you can't deny the fact that the game was (and still IS) fun to watch. It was also fun to play. War3 was fun to play and watch, right now SC2 is neither fun to play nor to watch. I play protoss and trust me when I say 90% of my games are boring. Looking at youtube commentaries and replays isn't fun either. I can't name one memorable game in SC2, but I can tell you stories about games in BW or War3. It's still a new game, that is true, but Blizz should have evolved a bit and perfected the already established game mechanic. I remain optimistic about the expansion, but only time will tell. I love how people state their opinions as if it's fact. Let me correct you. SC2 is neither fun to play or watch for YOU. I, along with A LOT of other people, belive SC2 is a very fun game to play & watch. Also ROFL at saying WC3 is fun to watch and SC2 isn't.. You said you play protoss.. how come your playing the game if it isn't fun?
Realize that everything being said in this thread, and in general, is 'opinion'. It's implied, it would be inefficient to write "in my opinion" before every sentence.
'Belief' is often used to describe irrational attachment, be careful with that one.
If you want more 'backing' behind points, I will also contend that I enjoy watching Warcraft 3 _much_ more than I do Starcraft 2 -- while I hold Brood War in special reverence and awe.
Lots of us are playing the game because ours friends are, and to try out a new thing. It's still fun to play Warcraft 3, but its sad to see friends lists full of offline people that don't play anymore, and previously frequented channels desolate. In the end, games are primarily fun and popular because of the people that play them, not the game itself (See: World of Warcraft).
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On January 08 2011 04:47 Leviwtf wrote:
Anyone find it hilarious that this convo blew up over absolutely nothing?
The opening week of a new season of GSL doesn't get alot of live viewers coming to sit in the studio...Gee who would of guessed people don't flock to watch the pre-season or 1st games of the new season in any sport/event/etc. If this were the finals then yes that would be a huge problem, but for the first week of a new season? Come on guys.
Well, the organizers thought people would show up for the first week of the season... they did book a 5000 seater afterall.
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I love how the longer, more bloodthirsty all the BW and SC2 purist posts get, the more garbled the syntax and overall clarity becomes. When did the internet kill logic? This thread should absolutely be locked, as this topic has completely deviated from any sources or reliable statistics and has instead stagnated in the boiling stew of a million raging, angsty fans of Broodwar and easily offended 15 year olds who have only ever played Starcraft II.
Both games are popular. Fact.
Both games have a vibrant eSports community. Fact.
Love thy neighbor, take a chill pill, squeeze your stress balls and enjoy watching WHATEVER makes YOU happy!
How about we all try that?
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On January 08 2011 05:20 e4e5nf3 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 04:47 Leviwtf wrote:
Anyone find it hilarious that this convo blew up over absolutely nothing?
The opening week of a new season of GSL doesn't get alot of live viewers coming to sit in the studio...Gee who would of guessed people don't flock to watch the pre-season or 1st games of the new season in any sport/event/etc. If this were the finals then yes that would be a huge problem, but for the first week of a new season? Come on guys. Well, the organizers thought people would show up for the first week of the season... they did book a 5000 seater afterall.
The lack of Kpop entertainment certainly didn't help either lol.
In all seriousness, it was a pretty crappy opening, which I think is mainly the organizer's fault, not SC2's fault. They overestimated the audience that these players would draw, though there was still a respectable number of people in the audience. They should've had a more conventional opening and save the large stadium spectacles for the finals.
IMO, even if they did BW, there would still be a pretty scrappy showing in the audience. Would you travel out in the extreme cold to an obscure, out of the way gymnasium watch a group stage with players like Jaehoon, Modesty, Hiya, and Skyhigh?
If the event was organized in a much better location with much better players and much better organization, then it wouldn't look so scrappy.
The rest of the group stages are not a good gauge of GSL's success. People are still fatigued from GSLs every month, and the group stages are much less exciting than normal brackets. Until we get solid data from the rest of the tournament, it's too early to make any conclusions.
tl;dr: Blame the organizers, not the game.
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On January 08 2011 05:27 YerknYass wrote:
I love how the longer, more bloodthirsty all the BW and SC2 purist posts get, the more garbled the syntax and overall clarity becomes. When did the internet kill logic? This thread should absolutely be locked, as this topic has completely deviated from any sources or reliable statistics and has instead stagnated in the boiling stew of a million raging, angsty fans of Broodwar and easily offended 15 year olds who have only ever played Starcraft II.
Both games are popular. Fact.
Both games have a vibrant eSports community. Fact.
Love thy neighbor, take a chill pill, squeeze your stress balls and enjoy watching WHATEVER makes YOU happy!
How about we all try that?
i would love for everyone to sit by a campfire and sing kumbaya, but there is a lot of turmoil right now (lawsuits?). The question remains - what will Blizzard do? Improve SC2 (new maps)? Try to take down BW? Drop GOM? Work with MBC/OGN (or continue with lawsuits?)? Time will tell
I personally, would love for everything to just stay as it is, with the GSL/OSL/MSL/PL to continue on as it is.
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I believe when we look back at this thread in one year, we will find it very, very silly indeed.
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On January 08 2011 04:36 Krigwin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 04:14 Xain wrote:
For those dropping the argument that the GSL popularity is somehow linked to the quality of the two games(SC1 & 2), that kind of remind me of star wars fans and the way they argue about the old star wars versus the new ones. I always wondered why any of them realised that the star wars story was never really good, nor the acting, in any of the films. The thing is, I think it's all a nostalgia thing: most people saw the old star wars when they were young and of course loved it and sticked with it, but if you ask a children today which ones he likes, of course he's going to say the new ones (well it may depends on the parenting bias too).
You could put the same argument with Final Fantasy: lots of people liked best the 7th or the 6th, because they grew up with it.
That being said, while I think SC1 was a excellent game in its own right, a lot of what happened with it has something to do with the context in which it got out, the way the culture around videogames was evolving etc. I think SC2 has what it got to be in the position SC1 is/was, but the context may not be as favorable...
Edit: just saw Jinro's post, and just thought i'd offer my support on the map thing... You are completely and demonstrably wrong. Please don't try to bring in Star Wars on some kind of anecdotal tangent when it's clear and obvious you know nothing about cinema.
he made a good point .. just like in music .. the 40 year old guy tells you on how special the 80's music has been and that in the 90's and 10's there is no good popmusic anymore .. 50 year old guys tell you the same bout the 60/70ies and there has been no real guitar player after jimi hendrix. People tend to stick to the stuff the grew up with. I bet most of the BW promoters and SC2 haters are >30
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On January 08 2011 05:45 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 04:36 Krigwin wrote:On January 08 2011 04:14 Xain wrote:
For those dropping the argument that the GSL popularity is somehow linked to the quality of the two games(SC1 & 2), that kind of remind me of star wars fans and the way they argue about the old star wars versus the new ones. I always wondered why any of them realised that the star wars story was never really good, nor the acting, in any of the films. The thing is, I think it's all a nostalgia thing: most people saw the old star wars when they were young and of course loved it and sticked with it, but if you ask a children today which ones he likes, of course he's going to say the new ones (well it may depends on the parenting bias too).
You could put the same argument with Final Fantasy: lots of people liked best the 7th or the 6th, because they grew up with it.
That being said, while I think SC1 was a excellent game in its own right, a lot of what happened with it has something to do with the context in which it got out, the way the culture around videogames was evolving etc. I think SC2 has what it got to be in the position SC1 is/was, but the context may not be as favorable...
Edit: just saw Jinro's post, and just thought i'd offer my support on the map thing... You are completely and demonstrably wrong. Please don't try to bring in Star Wars on some kind of anecdotal tangent when it's clear and obvious you know nothing about cinema. he made a good point .. just like in music .. the 40 year old guy tells you on how special the 80's music has been and that in the 90's and 10's there is no good popmusic anymore .. 50 year old guys tell you the same bout the 60/70ies and there has been no real guitar player after jimi hendrix. People tend to stick to the stuff the grew up with. I bet most of the BW promoters and SC2 haters are >30
If our recent TL Atlanta OSL finals meet up is anything to go by, the majority are ~20. Our opinions may vary but we just think BW is more fun to watch. Most of us probably even play SC2, I do but I'd still rather watch pro BW.
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On January 08 2011 05:45 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
he made a good point .. just like in music .. the 40 year old guy tells you on how special the 80's music has been and that in the 90's and 10's there is no good popmusic anymore .. 50 year old guys tell you the same bout the 60/70ies and there has been no real guitar player after jimi hendrix. People tend to stick to the stuff the grew up with. I bet most of the BW promoters and SC2 haters are >30
Why would anyone want to be one of those people though? It shows short-sightedness and bullheadedness. I can name thirty AMAZING bands or songwriters in every decade since the 50s (and there are more in previous decades, that's just where knowledge ends). If you can't see the beauty and glory in contemporary fare (like StarCraft 2) then you are holding on to the past with a stubbornness that is childish and kinda silly.
BW = amazing
SC2 = amazing
<3 community <3
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This does not worry me much, GOMTV was not very crowded while running brood war tournaments either :p
Further, the game either makes it in the long run or it fails like wc3 more or less have done by now and it's not that important to me.
I hate the maps as much as anyone, I want the 2v2 size for 1v1 and map rotation, that would really be interesting. I picture myself watching some of my favorite players and analyzers talk about the released maps and learn them etc.
For map rotation to work the maps needs to be bigger though otherwise someone will just find a weird spot, put 2 rax/gates there etc.
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On January 07 2011 16:38 Lunchtime wrote:
LOL. Where was esports before SC2? BW was on the decline in Korea and non-existent competitively outside of Korea in 2010 on the eve of SC2's release.
Now there are SC2 columns in freaking PC World. More people are playing StarCraft in the world now than at any time during BW's life, and that's because of SC2.
The Blizzard ladder is hugely responsible for that. The average person cannot compete in Korea and signing up for third party leagues will automatically turn off 90% of the people who bought the game.
Blizzard did many things right with SC2. The game is also fun. The problem is that it is not like BW. What's wrong with being like C&C? C&C sold a ton and Dustin Browder's games were all fun (Generals, Battle for Middle Earth, Red Alert 2) and they were decently balanced for fun play, some competitive play, but they pale in comparison to the balance and depth of BW.
They need to up the ante in the new expansion packs and patches, and fast. That's about all they need to do, game-wise.
The rest is marketing. Let OSL/MSL into SC2. Let Gom focus on turning a profit from streams via advertising and the like. Allow staggered restreams across multiple regions. Start pushing SC2 in other countries. Get rid of the ridiculous requirements in Korea just to get a damn Bnet account.
Put so much money into SC2 that the BW players will move over.
None of this is new knowledge. Blizzard has already known they'd have to do all this. People are getting upset about a report from a competitor (OSL) that has everything to gain from making GSL and Blizzard look bad. Wake up.
btw, more people played bw than currently played sc2. There are 11 million copies of bw sold and god knows how many people downloaded it illegally.
Plus some of your reasoning is fairly off. The main issue is that GSLs are not that popular in korea. Why would OSL/MSL pick up something that is doing fairly poorly?
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On January 08 2011 05:20 e4e5nf3 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 04:47 Leviwtf wrote:
Anyone find it hilarious that this convo blew up over absolutely nothing?
The opening week of a new season of GSL doesn't get alot of live viewers coming to sit in the studio...Gee who would of guessed people don't flock to watch the pre-season or 1st games of the new season in any sport/event/etc. If this were the finals then yes that would be a huge problem, but for the first week of a new season? Come on guys. Well, the organizers thought people would show up for the first week of the season... they did book a 5000 seater afterall.
Exactly this is real problem, nothing to do with SC2's popularitiy. If they booked a place that seats 500 ppl this thread might be the complete opposite.
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On January 08 2011 05:27 YerknYass wrote:
Both games are popular. Fact.
Both games have a vibrant eSports community. Fact.
Love thy neighbor, take a chill pill, squeeze your stress balls and enjoy watching WHATEVER makes YOU happy!
How about we all try that?
Good post. I don't think discussion on how do increase popularity of each game respectively is a bad thing, but people need to stop treating it like a battle between SC2 and BW. Yes, they draw from similar target audiences, but those people will ultimately decide for themselves which THEY like better, so it's useless arguing your opinion against people with different opinions.
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Isn't growth more important? Regularly in the early rounds of the previous GSLs, you'd only get ten or so people.
Maybe it's just that the game's popularity isn't growing that's at issue.
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On January 08 2011 00:26 wxwx wrote:
koreans are just too into BW, they all understand how BW works and so they watch BW games. You've got to play the game yourself in order to understand what is going on in pro matches (example: I'm an sc2 player and I have no idea whats going on in BW).
I'm willing to bet that a majority of koreans just aren't getting exposed to sc2 probably because of the high price tag and the un-hackable bnet2.0. People aren't buying sc2, and LANcenters/PCBangs aren't adopting the game. Result? No one cares about sc2 pro-scene, especially since there's starleague season going on.
Solution? Someone needs to get to pirating quick, and put the game on something like Garena (I think that's the name). This could make sc2 big in China too, because only when people can play the game for free/dirt cheap will it become mainstream in asia.
As for a legal solution? Maybe blizzard can lower the price tag, provide free hand-outs to PC-bangs. Also sc2 needs a dota quick, so when people get bored of multiplayer they can just load dota, instead of playing other games/MMOs and getting hooked.
Look at the bind blizzard found themselves in:
"Let's make money by making sc2 huge so everyone will have to buy our game!"
"Oh wait, the price tag is too high and sc2 isn't taking off as an e-sport, but should we really lower the price tag, it would hurt our profits."
If anyone actually bothered to read what I posted, the main picture that I'm trying to paint is that it's unwise to have e-sports spearheaded by one company alone. They need a union/federation from all critical areas of the sport (sponsors, blizzard, broadcasters, teams, maybe a few players) spearheading the development of the sport. With 1 company (blizzard) having a monopoly over the direction e-sports is heading, we're going to see a lot of really selfish decisions, because in the end, blizzard is a company out to make money.
I find it hard to believe you have no idea what is going on in a bw game. And as a bw player who watched Starcraft 2 games in beta without actually owning the game, I can tell you it is not difficult at all to follow and understand if you can understand bw.
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On January 07 2011 08:11 pfods wrote:
I think korea needs to look outwards if it wants to survive as the mecca of starcraft and esports. They can only live on broodwar for so long, especially with so many of the pros switching over to starcraft 2. For one, a revision of how GOM presents the GSL to the west would be great. I know a lot of people that would watch if it weren't on at 4 in the morning. It's nice to have a livestream and all, but perhaps a delayed stream per each timezone would be better. Guaranteed to attract more viewers, and if they put ads in the stream, they would acquire revenue to promote themselves and the game more than they do now.
That said, I know blizzard wants starcraft 2 to succeed in esports(at least I hope they do). If korea fails to deliver, I can easily see blizzard stepping up and hosting a GSL like tournament.
None of the big players have switched over though. Very old players and some new ones that where ok (IrOn, Clare)
MVP was fairly successful but not exactly huge.
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New format is way more boring than the previous format where we had a Bo64. I don't really care for their "season." Just hold tournament like you used to!
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