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dormer
United States1314 Posts
On November 30 2010 17:09 AT_Tack wrote: *cough* Boxer eliminated Nada in Season 2... Not in the Ro64... Ro8, wasn't it? That's the point - of course they might meet later, but they won't be set up to play against each other in the first round. | ||
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borny
China481 Posts
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robertdinh
803 Posts
On November 30 2010 17:11 borny wrote: With no seeding at all I think it is pretty good that they do some "behind the scene set ups" as it would suck to have some of the best and most famous players against each other right away. Once 2011 starts with a proper seeding system this should stop. How is it fair that certain players get brackets favored towards them making S-class, while others do not? That sorta ruins the integrity of the tournament. Boxer and nada both had much easier routes to the ro8 in GSL 2 than the other brackets. | ||
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xlnt
Sweden106 Posts
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IntoTheEmo
Singapore1169 Posts
On November 30 2010 17:14 robertdinh wrote: How is it fair that certain players get brackets favored towards them making S-class, while others do not? That sorta ruins the integrity of the tournament. Boxer and nada both had much easier routes to the ro8 in GSL 2 than the other brackets. Oh, I don't follow GSL as much and forgot about that, that's a pretty good point, and yeah, general consensus here seems to be that it's "okay" to do this so GOM would get more viewers / it would be more interesting for the people watching. So not only are the players denied some extra cash, they are set back for the upcoming tournaments too  , if that is the case. | ||
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adeezy
United States1428 Posts
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necmon
194 Posts
I think they will eventually have seeding procedures that are openly admitted starting from next season :-) | ||
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Falcon_NL
Netherlands236 Posts
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Nemireck
Canada1875 Posts
On November 30 2010 17:14 robertdinh wrote: How is it fair that certain players get brackets favored towards them making S-class, while others do not? That sorta ruins the integrity of the tournament. Boxer and nada both had much easier routes to the ro8 in GSL 2 than the other brackets. It's not "fair", seeding, in and of itself is not "fair". The entire point of seeding a tournament is to give the forcasted best players the best chance of making it to the later rounds of the tournament. This is why Federer and Nadal are always the 1 and 2 seeds in tennis, to ensure that should the two best players in tennis today meet up, it's for the championship, and not a first-round knock-out. Given the general lack of substantive statistics that can be used to accurately rank the best players in SC2 (due to it's being incredibly new), the earlier seasons are going to have to rely on behind-the-scenes seeding and are not going to be incredibly accurate. At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter how the seeding breaks down, because the winner of the tournament, at some point or another, is going to have to beat the second-best player at the tournament. And despite different prize-money awards for better placement, at the end of the day, winning is the only thing that matters, so the "fairness" of the seeding is a moot point. | ||
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papaz
Sweden4149 Posts
I don't actually mind it sine I love watching the Emperor play. He has such a fun style to watch that i even enjoy watching TvT which I usually find very boring. | ||
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IntoTheEmo
Singapore1169 Posts
On November 30 2010 17:25 adeezy wrote: Evidence can be garnered either way to showcase bracket fixing or not fixing. That's for sure. However assuming that bracket fixing is real, it doesn't guarantee anything. No matter what RO8 is no easy feat, and pretty much anyone who has made it there I see their skill level as being top notch. Once again, even though it's not guaranteed, it doesn't mean it's right to do it. Also, since seeding for future tournaments would be based on the present ones, any sort of shenanigans now will be carried over to that. Don't people realize how serious this is? On November 30 2010 17:32 Nemireck wrote: It's not "fair", seeding, in and of itself is not "fair". The entire point of seeding a tournament is to give the forcasted best players the best chance of making it to the later rounds of the tournament. This is why Federer and Nadal are always the 1 and 2 seeds in tennis, to ensure that should the two best players in tennis today meet up, it's for the championship, and not a first-round knock-out. Given the general lack of substantive statistics that can be used to accurately rank the best players in SC2 (due to it's being incredibly new), the earlier seasons are going to have to rely on behind-the-scenes seeding and are not going to be incredibly accurate. At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter how the seeding breaks down, because the winner of the tournament, at some point or another, is going to have to beat the second-best player at the tournament. And despite different prize-money awards for better placement, at the end of the day, winning is the only thing that matters, so the "fairness" of the seeding is a moot point. Sure, that's because tennis has been around for years, and they are seeded for past wins, even BW has seeds too. But see, last season was Boxer's first GSL, and if was given any special treatment it would not be very fair to the other players, giving them to IdrA or Fruitdealer or the like would be more reasonable if they did do such a thing. Also I hear Liverpool and Manchester United are going to play each other in an early round of one of the English Cups soon ^^. | ||
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mKw
Denmark33 Posts
regardless im happy they pull some strings. otherwise im sure we would see foreigners matched up on Ro64. | ||
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adeezy
United States1428 Posts
On November 30 2010 17:34 IntoTheEmo wrote: Once again, even though it's not guaranteed, it doesn't mean it's right to do it. Also, since seeding for future tournaments would be based on the present ones, any sort of shenanigans now will be carried over to that. Don't people realize how serious this is? I think people are over-emphasizing the effect of the seeded bracket is. From what I read earlier, you don't even keep up with the GSL that much. And if you actually read through the brackets youll see everything is meant to be fairly even. Not too much of any certain matchups. There wasn't a lot of protoss in this GSL and you didnt see any PvP... etc. Random seeding is definitely worst. If you think what they are doing is so bad and so serious, what do you recommend that could possibly be better. | ||
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IntoTheEmo
Singapore1169 Posts
On November 30 2010 17:39 adeezy wrote: I think people are over-emphasizing the effect of the seeded bracket is. From what I read earlier, you don't even keep up with the GSL that much. And if you actually read through the brackets youll see everything is meant to be fairly even. Not too much of any certain matchups. There wasn't a lot of protoss in this GSL and you didnt see any PvP... etc. Random seeding is definitely worst. If you think what they are doing is so bad and so serious, what do you recommend that could possibly be better. We're not talking about random seeding, we're talking about randomly generated Ro64 brackets so people have an equal chance, seeing as there is so much money on the line. Also, I'm glad you asked, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=165437, Bacchus OSL, note how crowd favourites like Snow and Soulkey still managed to find each other in the earlier rounds, and all the players played the same maps. | ||
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Metalwing
Turkey1038 Posts
On November 30 2010 14:38 silentreality wrote: Plus like everybody has said, it can only help SC2 grow. How exactly will that help SC2 grow when you prevent new players to shine in the sake of favoring certain players? Is it just me thinking this way? EDIT: On November 30 2010 16:31 IntoTheEmo wrote: 10000% agree. Not saying GOMtv DID rig their tournament, but after reading like 3/4 of the posts here, many of which support a rigging of a tournament so early in the life of a competitive game, I am honestly shocked. Are people oblivious to the fact that the livelihood of the other players are also at stake in such a tournament? That they feel that it's okay to do it so that they can see the more popular players go at it in the later rounds. I mean yeah it's great for fans and it would be beneficial for GOMtv to have it that way too. But people forget that the true focus of e-sports should be supporting the players. And no I do not mean supporting the veterans/hyped players. Everyone needs to have a somewhat fair chance. From a GSL thread, If they did encourage participation of their tournament, but blatantly made it so top players were favored in either a map pool or in a choice of match-up, well, basically that is a slap in the face to the newcomers to the scene, at least in the opinion. Also, to me, this does not seem like the right way to promote e-sports. (Once again I'm not saying GOM rigged anything). Here's an example. You're  TurN, a really promising rookie (he's seriously 7-0 in PL) who just made it through to the Ro32 of OSL. Wow you're on your way to a Royal Road. Lets assume advancing through rounds increases your payout exponentially. OGN sets up their own Ro32 brackets (not based on Ro64).Grats, you're paired up against  Bisu, arguably #1 Protoss in BW, who was knocked out early last OSL and thus OGN wants him to advance to Ro16 this season to make the brackets more interesting.Okay not too bad. It's still possible that you might win. Then OGN removes the thumbs down feature on their Map pool. It ends up being: TurN vs BisuGame 1: Central Plains Game 2: Empire of the Sun Game 3: Central Plains (Really farfetched, but meh trying to illustrate a point I guess) Central Plains is a heavily Protoss favored map. 25ish PvPs so far. How would you feel? From what I understand for GSL, at least according to the thread I searched for here, Ro16 is worth 4 more times prize money than Ro32. It's one thing to get randomly matched up against someone really good (like OSL group selection etc), but if it wasn't, that's over $1000 USD that you just lost to a tournament wanting to showcase their star attractions in the final rounds. If you have read it up till this point, thanks for reading, I felt strongly compelled to voice my opinion regarding this. Edit: wow i totally screwed up using TLPD, fixed that LOL slightly embarassing This is what I was talking about. | ||
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adeezy
United States1428 Posts
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sh0gun
Australia3 Posts
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Nemireck
Canada1875 Posts
On November 30 2010 17:34 IntoTheEmo wrote: Once again, even though it's not guaranteed, it doesn't mean it's right to do it. Also, since seeding for future tournaments would be based on the present ones, any sort of shenanigans now will be carried over to that. Don't people realize how serious this is? Sure, that's because tennis has been around for years, and they are seeded for past wins, even BW has seeds too. But see, last season was Boxer's first GSL, and if was given any special treatment it would not be very fair to the other players, giving them to IdrA or Fruitdealer or the like would be more reasonable if they did do such a thing. Also I hear Liverpool and Manchester United are going to play each other in an early round of one of the English Cups soon ^^. You're missing the point though, regardless of how much information one has, seeding is an intentional method that gives an unfair advantage to the player(s) who are forecast to be the best, in order to ensure that the best players play in the most important matches, thus increasing the ratings of the given sport (and seeding is used in every sport that I know of). If you support seeding based on past performance, then by default, you have to support any and every other type of seeding, because regardless of the specific process used, seeding is an unfair method of deciding who plays who at the start of the tournament. And even so, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter, because eventually the best player wins, and so it doesn't matter how the tournament match order was decided. | ||
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NrG.ZaM
United States267 Posts
They're even doing the same thing in GSL3, half the terran players are on each side of the bracket, this is madness! I've never seen this kind of favoritism before, completely stacking half the bracket just to give boxer a better shot. | ||
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adeezy
United States1428 Posts
Ro64: TvT: If they prepared this, how could they have. Ro32: TvP (enough said Ro16: TvT (vs loner): Couldve been a TvZ but Loner hung on a thread, also couldve been a protoss. The availiable opponents were : 2 T, 1 p 1 Z Ro8 TvT( Vs Nada): Couldve been Leenock: if Nada lost (which almost happened). At this stage fromt he other bracket there was 3 Terran, 3 Protoss, and 2 Zerg, any couldve been his Ro8 Fighter Ro4 TvZ In GSL 3 he had a TvT first, and he couldve had another TvZ but Joon lost to Polt. I hope this is enough evidence to go against GomTV protecting boxer. On November 30 2010 17:58 NrG.ZaM wrote: GOM so trying to give boxer a free ride, I mean, half the terrans in GSL2 were on his side of the bracket. HALF, on HALF the bracket! Unacceptable. They're even doing the same thing in GSL3, half the terran players are on each side of the bracket, this is madness! I've never seen this kind of favoritism before, completely stacking half the bracket just to give boxer a better shot. Those are serious accusations. i just browsed thorugh the bracket and Honestly, Every bracket has about equal distribution. There was another TvT ina different group. (sc vs Lyn) and in general it doesn't look as what you are accusing. Like I said, I just want to attribute this whole topic and mentality of people to their whole paranoia attitude that seems prevalent. Some occasions that come to mind is Idra vs Nony (people were saying Idra lost and didnt try for MLG Dallas), the whole SangHo business, a few topics that came up (and got closed) about audio cheating, and just little posts here and there. | ||
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