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As everyone knows, Dustin Browder/David Kim and friends made comments on the imbalance of PvT in the late game, the general consensus being that P has the upper hand.
There's now debates going on about how easy it is to replenish HT's in particular once you're running off 4-5 bases and the power of warp in storms.
Personally, I'd rather not see templars get nerfed into the ground, so I'm thinking of changes that could help Terrans in the late game without destroying the unit.
So, what's Terran's main counter to Templar? The ghost, clearly. The ghost's EMP has an effective range of 11, as the actual range is 10 and the radius of the blast adds a bit. Feedback range is single target, has no radius, and has an effective range of 9. On paper, this works out nicely.
Problem in the late game=
1. Replenishing HT numbers is much easier then replenishing ghost numbers due to warpgate tech. If 5 ht's are emp'ed, you can warp in a few more to replenish your numbers instantaneously.
2. Replenishing HT numbers is much easier because the cost is less, 50 minerals 150 gas to 150 minerals 150 gas.
I'm thinking if you gave ghosts the templar treatment, you could not only slightly weaken terran's early game, but also have a solid answer to mass templars in the late game (and really all toss units, emp isn't just effective vs. templar).
My suggested changes-
Step 1: Make EMP a research, cost is debatable.
Step 2: Remove the Moebius Reactor research, ghosts are instead produced with 75 energy without the upgrade.
Step 3: Add a research taking the ghost build time from 40 seconds to 30 seconds, cost is debatable.
Step 4: Lower ghost cost to 50 minerals 150 gas.
Resulting effects:
1. Easier time replenishing ghosts to fight off the templar numbers due to the lower build time and cost.
2. Going early immortals as Protoss in the early game can not be punished as hard with the small commitment to a ghost academy.
3. The lower cost and 25 more energy (1 more possible snipe) possibly makes ghost bio a reasonable response to muta ling.
4. Possibly allows templar as a more viable mid game due to the terran now having to commit to ghosts, resulting in less 2 base colossus all ins in every gsl pvt.
There are probably more effects then what I just thought of, some possibly negative. If anyone has any thoughts on this let me know.
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"the general consenses is that P has the upper hand", where did you get that from?
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I don't think I envy the job of the mods on this forum.
Second Protoss balance change thread in like, a 10 minute period.
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On October 26 2010 05:44 Logican wrote:
"the general consenses is that P has the upper hand", where did you get that from?
I would be interested in hearing the source also...but on these forums at least, it's a pretty widely expressed viewpoint.
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On October 26 2010 05:44 Logican wrote:
"the general consenses is that P has the upper hand", where did you get that from?
Blizzard
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god forbid terrans be disadvantaged at any point of the game
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Here is my suggestion: Reduce ghost cost to 150/100 (100 gas only).
EMP now gives 100 damage to shield over 3 seconds, making it possible to micro away from it from the protos side (which will give high apm players an advantage).
This will buff the underused snipe ability as well as that is unchanged. And HT will be more cost effective vs HT.
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On October 26 2010 05:47 kthnx wrote:
god forbid terrans be disadvantaged at any point of the game
Yeah, god forbid we actually have some balance at all times of the game.
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On October 26 2010 05:47 kthnx wrote:
god forbid terrans be disadvantaged at any point of the game
Exactly, they shouldn't be. Nor should any other race. No game should require one side to win in a specific window. Same applies for any other race, in any timing window. (I.E., why they are also looking at T v P early game, for the sake of helping protoss there)
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On October 26 2010 05:47 kthnx wrote:
god forbid terrans be disadvantaged at any point of the game
God forbid you ever contribute to any thread on these forums. Blizzard think Terran are overpowered early game against Protoss, but underpowered late game against Protoss. Their statistics support this. They want a solution to this problem because they believe that ideally each race should have an equal chance of winning at ANY point in the game. Do you agree with this? Yes? Ok, good, now I guess you can see why this thread was created.
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On October 26 2010 05:46 Panoptic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 05:44 Logican wrote:
"the general consenses is that P has the upper hand", where did you get that from?
I would be interested in hearing the source also...but on these forums at least, it's a pretty widely expressed viewpoint.
http://www.youtube.com/user/noobclubru#p/u/2/9OYTt_8zYHI at about 7:30 minutes in.
Also, please don't turn this thread into a flame war. Try to give criticism/your own ideas. Whether protoss is overpowered in the late game or not, blizzard thinks it's possible atm.
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On October 26 2010 05:50 Lumb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 05:47 kthnx wrote:
god forbid terrans be disadvantaged at any point of the game God forbid you ever contribute to any thread on these forums. Blizzard think Terran are overpowered early game against Protoss, but underpowered late game against Protoss. Their statistics support this. They want a solution to this problem because they believe that ideally each race should have an equal chance of winning at ANY point in the game. Do you agree with this? Yes? Ok, good, now I guess you can see why this thread was created.
It's a useless thread. Suggestions to Blizzard are always useless. As has been stated by Blizzard hundreds of times, especially on the WoW boards, they're interested in player feedback concerning potential problems. They have 0 interest in player suggestions on how to fix those problems. They will come up with the solutions themselves.
If you have feedback on perceived imbalances, they're interested in hearing about it. If your feedback concerns how to fix those problems, they're just going to ignore it and trash it.
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4-5 bases? Against a dropping terran? Wut?
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On October 26 2010 05:39 Werx wrote:
As everyone knows, Dustin Browder/David Kim and friends made comments on the imbalance of PvT in the late game, the general consensus being that P has the upper hand.
There's now debates going on about how easy it is to replenish HT's in particular once you're running off 4-5 bases and the power of warp in storms.
Personally, I'd rather not see templars get nerfed into the ground, so I'm thinking of changes that could help Terrans in the late game without destroying the unit.
So, what's Terran's main counter to Templar? The ghost, clearly. The ghost's EMP has an effective range of 11, as the actual range is 10 and the radius of the blast adds a bit. Feedback range is single target, has no radius, and has an effective range of 9. On paper, this works out nicely.
Problem in the late game=
1. Replenishing HT numbers is much easier then replenishing ghost numbers due to warpgate tech. If 5 ht's are emp'ed, you can warp in a few more to replenish your numbers instantaneously.
2. Replenishing HT numbers is much easier because the cost is less, 50 minerals 150 gas to 150 minerals 150 gas.
I'm thinking if you gave ghosts the templar treatment, you could not only slightly weaken terran's early game, but also have a solid answer to mass templars in the late game (and really all toss units, emp isn't just effective vs. templar).
My suggested changes-
Step 1: Make EMP a research, cost is debatable.
Step 2: Remove the Moebius Reactor research, ghosts are instead produced with 75 energy without the upgrade.
Step 3: Add a research taking the ghost build time from 40 seconds to 30 seconds, cost is debatable.
Step 4: Lower ghost cost to 50 minerals 150 gas.
Resulting effects:
1. Easier time replenishing ghosts to fight off the templar numbers due to the lower build time and cost.
2. Going early immortals as Protoss in the early game can not be punished as hard with the small commitment to a ghost academy.
3. The lower cost and 25 more energy (1 more possible snipe) possibly makes ghost bio a reasonable response to muta ling.
4. Possibly allows templar as a more viable mid game due to the terran now having to commit to ghosts, resulting in less 2 base colossus all ins in every gsl pvt.
There are probably more effects then what I just thought of, some possibly negative. If anyone has any thoughts on this let me know.
The reason Ghosts are more expensive then Templar is actually pretty simple. They aren't useless once they have no energy. They do 10+10 light which is actually really good, can cloak, can fire off nukes (Which albeit, take a long time). It is honestly pretty silly to say that Moebius Reactor should be removed, because every single caster in the game starts with 50 energy. You would buff ghosts to hell by removing a huge portion of research required for ghosts. 50 minerals and 150 gas it too cheap for a ghost. Give Templar a ground only 15 damage ranged attack and you can have ghosts for the same price.
Templar don't need a nerf, they take a really long time to get out (Way slower than ghosts), and the damage can be negated if you dodge storms well, or your opponent mis-clicks his storms.
Why not use more mech play? Siege tanks only got nerfed 15 damage, they still do awesome against Zealot/High Templar. Banshees are awesome, just cloak them to negate the energy so you can't be feedback for a one hit kill. There are ways around High Templar. If ghosts were a huge investment like HT, I would say that there should be a fix. But HT are a massive investment, and once they're out you're pretty much committed to using them.
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i like the idea maby wouldint add build time upgrade but just decrease it to 35 this could also make ghosts better unit in tvt and tvp just for snipe or cloak harras and since you got academy already why not make some nukes and also would make EMP less accesable early in TvP where it basicly decreases stalker hp by half and destroys immortals (i would like to see it somewhere higher in the tech tree or with kinda long reserch time so you get it like 3 min before enemy has templars with storm)
although i dont think blizz would implement such big changes before HotS (where new units will definitely destroy balance)
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I'd rather they buff alternatives to MMM than making it easier to go more MMM. HTs is a heavy investment into anti-MMM and if we mitigate that, then what's the point of teching to all this shit and they still never have to change to their composition. Hellions seem to be a good opportunity to help against the hard counter to Mech (Zealot/Stalker/Immortal). Honestly, has anyone tried Hellion/Thor/Banshee? Or Viking/Banshee/Seige? I never see Terrans attempt BCs either. Don't give that crap that you'll outright die while teching to BCs. Terrans can lose their entire army in a stupid skirmish and still defend their 2 base with relative ease. I think it's more lack of creativity. Turns out Tier 1 spam doesn't work out so well for lategame.
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On October 26 2010 05:57 DreamSailor wrote:
The reason Ghosts are more expensive then Templar is actually pretty simple. They aren't useless once they have no energy.
Neither are templar, archons aren't useless.
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On October 26 2010 05:54 Werx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 05:46 Panoptic wrote:On October 26 2010 05:44 Logican wrote:
"the general consenses is that P has the upper hand", where did you get that from?
I would be interested in hearing the source also...but on these forums at least, it's a pretty widely expressed viewpoint. http://www.youtube.com/user/noobclubru#p/u/2/9OYTt_8zYHI at about 7:30 minutes in. Also, please don't turn this thread into a flame war. Try to give criticism/your own ideas. Whether protoss is overpowered in the late game or not, blizzard thinks it's possible atm.
Thanks for that link...you should update the OP and insert that link if you want to avoid flaming.
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On October 26 2010 05:50 Lumb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 05:47 kthnx wrote:
god forbid terrans be disadvantaged at any point of the game God forbid you ever contribute to any thread on these forums. Blizzard think Terran are overpowered early game against Protoss, but underpowered late game against Protoss. Their statistics support this. They want a solution to this problem because they believe that ideally each race should have an equal chance of winning at ANY point in the game. Do you agree with this? Yes? Ok, good, now I guess you can see why this thread was created.
there're other ways to play around templar. buffing barracks units only pidgeon holes terran into rax play which i doubt blizzard wants
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On October 26 2010 06:04 kthnx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 05:50 Lumb wrote:On October 26 2010 05:47 kthnx wrote:
god forbid terrans be disadvantaged at any point of the game God forbid you ever contribute to any thread on these forums. Blizzard think Terran are overpowered early game against Protoss, but underpowered late game against Protoss. Their statistics support this. They want a solution to this problem because they believe that ideally each race should have an equal chance of winning at ANY point in the game. Do you agree with this? Yes? Ok, good, now I guess you can see why this thread was created. there're other ways to play around templar. buffing barracks units only pidgeon holes terran into rax play which i doubt blizzard wants
Using ghosts in the end game does not necessarily mean you're "pidgeon holed" into rax play. You do not need 8 barracks pumping ghosts..
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I don't understand. Ghosts are clearly stronger than HT's. Terran just get too greedy and only get 2-3 ghosts, while protoss have 10+ templar
EMP is instant, doesn't require research, requires significantly less tech, does more damage than storm, ntm ghosts can cloak and have an actual attack, unlike HT's.
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On October 26 2010 06:04 kthnx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 05:50 Lumb wrote:On October 26 2010 05:47 kthnx wrote:
god forbid terrans be disadvantaged at any point of the game God forbid you ever contribute to any thread on these forums. Blizzard think Terran are overpowered early game against Protoss, but underpowered late game against Protoss. Their statistics support this. They want a solution to this problem because they believe that ideally each race should have an equal chance of winning at ANY point in the game. Do you agree with this? Yes? Ok, good, now I guess you can see why this thread was created. there're other ways to play around templar. buffing barracks units only pidgeon holes terran into rax play which i doubt blizzard wants
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163417
Except Blizzard's main balance dude said they're looking at psistorm.
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United States11393 Posts
why do people still make these threads
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EPT
