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There is a difference in "I'm going to win, because I know I'm better than him". and "He is fucking trash, I'm not going to have any trouble at all."
One is trash talk, the other is just being cocky. Yes, there is a difference.
There is a difference...but the Starcraft community doesn't tend to acknowledge it. In the eyes of a lot of fans, its all just "BM".
For example In a game against the Denver Nuggets, Michael Jordan once stepped to the foul line and told rookie Dikembe Mutombo that he would shoot the free throw with his eyes closed. Before he did, he looked at Mutombo and said, “This one’s for you.” Then he closed his eyes, hit the shot and told Mutombo, “Welcome to the NBA.”
In another game, agains thte Utah Jazz, Jordan dunked on some small guard. Utah owner Larry Miller at courtside yelled for Jordan to “pick on someone your own size.”
Shortly thereafter, Jordan dunked over seven-footer Mel Turpin. “He big enough for you!” Jordan shot back.
That is how a champion trash talks. He looks someone in the eye, tells them exactly how he's gonna kick their ass, and does it.
But, I'm sure a lot of people would just criticise Jordan for "BM".
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On September 17 2010 06:12 Raevin wrote:
Its called football son
Not everywhere in the world son.
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Canada11349 Posts
On September 17 2010 06:45 awesomoecalypse wrote:Find a single post by me where I did. Every example I've given has been from great athletes in other sports. Not whiny children. Not mediocre second raters. Champions. Top notch competitors. If you honestly feel that you are better than your opponent, than stating your honest emotions is going to come across as trash talk. And I'll take honest emotions over manufactured, media-friendly "niceness" any day.
No you didn't mention Halo or whiny children. But I would suggest that because gaming culture is known for it's whiny teens, many other gamers are concerned all forms of bm and any trash talking that contains hints of bm because gaming culture's image has been hurt so bad.
Sports has that luxury of tolerating arrogant players.
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On September 17 2010 06:42 Raevin wrote:Show nested quote +that fact that bm bothers some people is proof that it works. so as long as it bothers people it will exist. it's used in all forms of competition. grow up and deal with it. Works as what? What does it do other than make you a laughing stock? Have you even checked other forums other than TL where people know IdrA just for his BM, they dont even realise the amount of work he puts in his games and how much he practices, but becuase BM is there (sometimes) he is just seen as a clown and nothing else. Sort of a circus entertaintment, yet he deserves more respect becuase of how much effort he puts, but few know that. Meaning it dosent work, its the oppossite, it works AGAINST you. Telling people to "grow up" and accept bad manners and trash talk is ironic, do you even know what it means to be a grown up? Im guessing not
Yes, I'm sure that Idra is only recognized for being a dick, not because he's a really, really fucking good player that also happens to be a hilarious dickhead.
I'm a huge cock in games. Why do people not talk about me more on random forums??
The fact that people know idra and know he is a dick proves it works. It irritates some. It pleases many. Either way, he receives more attention for it. And that's on top of his skills.
On September 17 2010 06:23 Raevin wrote:
Someone mentioned how little to nothing Flash says, and yet he is super popular and loved in Korea, and even here on TL people adore that guy.
Does anyone wanna try guessing why?
A: Great haircut
His hair is the reason everyone loves him, its just dashing!
B: Great name
After a superhero comic at that! People love comics!
C: Great player
People love how good he is at playing Brood War
Hell, ill give you 2 tries!
What does this even say about BM at all?? Between these two and you saying that no one in football talks shit... I mean, seriously?? what are you even trying to say?? Do you even know??
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I always liked the sc community because it's friendly, When people is polite and respects eachother it gives for a better game and a higher spirit.
When Artosis had his showdown with Rekrul and Rekrul was all full of himself trashing Artosis about how much better he was, after he got his arse kicked by Artosis he just ended up looking ridiculus.
The problem with arrogance and bad manner is that when people start saying that they are better then someone else they tell that to themselves aswell, and when it turns out not to be true they get pisses and blames luck and all kinds of stuff while they are still ridiculusly convinced that they are better then they actually are. and this keeps on making them angry and hostile to the player who defeated them, who in return gets pissed at the other for beeing sucha bad looser. and there you go enemies/rivals for life.
I agree it's expeptionally fun to watch the player you like fight his rival and that players fans, (It's kinda like when you coutnry is playing football and you route for them) But thats only if your players has like max 3-4 rivals and those matches are a hugh highlighy. at one point when a player gets to many enemies, you will realise that he doesn't have rivals anymore he just bad manners and dislikes everyone, and grumpy people are no fun to route for.
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What does this even say about BM at all?? Between these two and you saying that no one in football talks shit... I mean, seriously?? what are you even trying to say?? Do you even know??
Im not surprised you cant see it, since i spelled it out for you:
People love Flash and he isent BM at all, just as they love alot of these players.
Not only that but these players make a killer amount of money, something i think IdrA definatly would like one day, otherwise what is he doing in Korea right?
Conclusion: Its possible to make alot of money in Korea without being a assclown, because people will watch the games without "intarnat dramaz lol"
Do i need to explain it further or is it sinking in?
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I disagree that it's necessarily just an American thing. Football players (soccer) trash talk quite a bit. It's just not as visible or constant because of the nature of the sport (few lulls in the game, unlike say, american football).
Hell, who doesn't remember Zidane's retaliation to some pretty serious "BM."
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Im also willing to bet that if this happened:
Jaedon: lol flash mom is a total skank
Flash: F jaedon he is total loser what a ****sucker
That the majority of Koreans would not want to watch them play this game, thus rejecting your theory that being a assclown somehow makes online gaming "better"
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It depends what you mean by "bm". Scouts (in BW) are almost always a good thing, add spice to a game. Pylon hearts, mind control. Ceremonies after the game are fun... trashtalk is even cool with me to an extent.
But "bm" in most video game communities is just cussing people out and lolurmom and teabagging (oh Halo how we love thee) and really that doesn't add anything to the game at all.
In short, the game could use some more cocky semi-jerks like Idra or FBH, but idiot assholes won't add anything to the scene. Personally, being a quiet person myself, I appreciate the "manner" nature of the scene (although I suspect it you went and hung around on battle.net for a while it's not actually that much better on average).
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On September 17 2010 07:01 Raevin wrote:
Im also willing to bet that if this happened:
Jaedon: lol flash mom is a total skank
Flash: F jaedon he is total loser what a ****sucker
That the majority of Koreans would not want to watch them play this game, thus rejecting your theory that being a assclown somehow makes online gaming "better"
That was already acknowledged as being a difference in culture.
Fine whatever, but the thing I dislike most about the BW gaming scene in korea is how god awfully generic everyone seems to act. Nobody has any sort of actual personality besides FBH and to a lesser extent Bisu. It gets soooo old and boring.
I don't think SC2 or e-sports in general will ever truely thrive if people are always so annoying PC about every god damn thing.
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Pride comes before a fall...
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Conquered. Edit: i don't know why I wrote conquered. I meant to write agreed. x_X
BM is BestM. Obviously GM when it counts is cool-- like allowing a restart if someone is lagging from the start, whatever kinda stuff like that. But shittalk is besttalk.
And yeah lack of personality is a huge detriment to e-sports. I know the only reason most of my friends watched the HDH was to cross our fingers that Idra would lose and rage (tyso much White-ra you made my life!).
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Haven't read the entire thread, but I have to say I completely disagree with the OP. Maybe it's because I'm english, but to me, sportsmanship is everything and that carries through to videogames as well.
There was this friend of mine in class at uni (who coached a football/soccer team), and any time there was any remote degree of competition of any kind (even if we were just messing around playing some game with a scrunched up piece of paper in class), he always made an almost humorous amount of effort to congratulate the winners and generally be a good sportsman. This was infectious. Probably because of him I just love this attitude towards competition, and so I absolutely disdain the opposite.
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I don't think SC2 or e-sports in general will ever truely thrive if people are always so annoying PC about every god damn thing.
Culture or not, Korea has shown that the way they have done things works. Having good manners means that the focus will be on the games, people new to it all will notice the games, not the drama.
Yet no game has approached the fame and notoriety that BW had in Korea in the western world, the image of FPS proscene is abunch of fratcore, out of shape, high school dropouts who think they are "black" because they like 50 Cent while wearing New York Yankees baseball caps sideways, why would anyone want to watch them or even take them seriously other than other douchebags like them? Whatever skill they have is overshadowed by their douchy behaviour and people lose interest.
Which is why i dont believe that every american is drawn to drama and BM, if that was the case, then WoW Arena and Halo would be more popular than the NFL!!
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OP is not a good representation of Americans just so you know.
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idras rage never ceases to make me laugh, i wish he could do it more often 
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Its different when the BM is directed at you.
Because we're just not viewers, we're also participants, we don't want BM players spouting their inane garbage and discrediting our awesome ass-kickery.
When its two competitive high-level guys doing it to each other, its awesome.
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On September 17 2010 07:17 Raevin wrote:Show nested quote +I don't think SC2 or e-sports in general will ever truely thrive if people are always so annoying PC about every god damn thing. Culture or not, Korea has shown that the way they have done things works. Having good manners means that the focus will be on the games, people new to it all will notice the games, not the drama. Yet no game has approached the fame and notoriety that BW had in Korea in the western world, the image of FPS proscene is abunch of fratcore, out of shape, high school dropouts who think they are "black" because they like 50 Cent while wearing New York Yankees baseball caps sideways, why would anyone want to watch them or even take them seriously other than other douchebags like them? Whatever skill they have is overshadowed by their douchy behaviour and people lose interest. Which is why i dont believe that every american is drawn to drama and BM, if that was the case, then WoW Arena and Halo would be more popular than the NFL!!
BW is an outlier and most people acknowledge that. A lot of factors came together to bring about a nearly perfectly balanced game in a culture that would allow it to thrive.
A lot of the reason BW works there is a factor of their culture...something when replicated somewhere else might not work. Everyone is not drawn to the drama but hell, rivalries make things EXCITING. There is absolutely nothing wrong about claiming you're good when you're good.
Any response other than "My opponent is good and he played well" is met with outcry, regardless of how true "I was just better" is. Nobody actually believe Flash when he says Hyuk played well, even if that's what he says.
Seems forced to me.
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Sports are way different than starcraft, now I know i'm gonna get tons of nerds raging on me but SC is not a sport in sports its adds to the game because of the physicallity of it, if you trash talk over an nline game its so stupid, when I played the lacrosse and hockey you would beak someone than most likely fight them later or lay them out or score a bog goal to rub it in even more, if you do it in starcraft you seem like an asshole trying to make yourself feal good knowing he can never do anything to you
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On September 17 2010 06:38 boblzer0 wrote:
that fact that bm bothers some people is proof that it works. so as long as it bothers people it will exist. it's used in all forms of competition. grow up and deal with it.
Oh it works one of the most famous examples I can think of was when Daily Thompson was at the LA Olympics and the gold medal was expected to either go to him or the world record holder at the time Jurgen Hingsen. He had a tee shirt printed up with "Is the World’s Second Greatest Athlete Gay?" and wore it while he warmed up. Jurgen took exception to this which amused everybody at least in this country because thats when he pretty much admitted to the world he wasn't the best. Daly won the gold and got the world record back but you need some balls to pull off that kind of stunt. I dont normally like BM but that was funny and when its your countryman or its a player for your team that you support often you give them a bit more leeway.
Overall BM might work but popularity wise you have to be able to folllow it up with results to get the people that like an anti hero to follow you.
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EPT
