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My preferred style of beating a trash-talker is just to stay silent and win. Unfortunately this fails to silence many trash-talkers in online games. Playing a large amount of HoN, some people will just complain and trash-talk regardless of what is being a said.
I played a ladder game a week or two ago against a toss who tried to proxy gate me. In response I added another gate before my cyber and made two zealots before he even made one (he was pretty bad). I had 4 zealots by the time I took his proxy down so I decided to send them to his base while I expanded so they didn't just sit around. He had 2 stalkers which tried to kite half my zealots while the other two took down probes (and they took down quite a few). He then says to me: "Zealout rush more noob."
I soon won, but not before he called me a scrub as well. This is the kind of BM people do not want to see in the community. If SC players have to stigmatize the "healthy" kind of BM as well to get rid of this stupid shit, fine. The less we see of this baseless trash-talk and braggadocio, the better off we are.
I think playing the mental game is fine, but professional athletes do it to gain an edge. If professional gamers did it to gain an edge, well that'd be one thing. But the concept of BM/GM didn't arise from professionals. It arouse from regular people. This etiquette is put in place to keep things civil and constructive so as to put the focus on THE GAME, rather some bullshit pissing match.
Most BMers are not top players. And when they BM other people who are worse, by telling them they're bad, or doing whatever, they are seemingly forgetting their own flaws. When you fail to empathize with an inferior opponent, you are ignoring your own weaknesses. People who ignore their own weaknesses are delusional pricks. And the worse the weakness, the more delusional you are. That's why seeing BM from a silver league player seems a lot more ridiculous than seeing BM from a professional athlete, even disregarding the "interweb" factor.
All that being said, pounding a trash-talker down is so god-damned satisfying.
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Someone mentioned how little to nothing Flash says, and yet he is super popular and loved in Korea, and even here on TL people adore that guy.
Does anyone wanna try guessing why?
A: Great haircut
His hair is the reason everyone loves him, its just dashing!
B: Great name
After a superhero comic at that! People love comics!
C: Great player
People love how good he is at playing Brood War
Hell, ill give you 2 tries!
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in starcraft 2 you try to build the perfect game, good manners goes with that. in ball sports you're commonly trying to beat a man in a contest for the ball, bm is part of a psychological ploy to get him to screw up. you're not there to execute the perfect tackle, you're there to beat that asshole. beating a guy who bms in a ball sport just feels good. sc2 has a better intellectual ideal and executing a 'clean' game feels really good. bm brings it down.
besides sc2 is a very draining game and matches are played consecutively, emotional damage carries across games and so if you get into shit it could potentially mess up the rest of your tourney/games/laddering, so being a dick has a greater impact than a ball sport that you play once a week and as a result people hate bm more.
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Advantages of having good manners as a progamer:
1. You will have more fans in general, look how loved TLO is, there isent a person in SC2 community who hates that guy. Then look at IdrA and how many outright celebrated his defeat at GSL.
2. You have more "friends" amongst the pros, you can practice more matchups. If you are an assclown they naturally dont want play matches with you
3. Its alot easier to play SC2, you can focus on the game instead of the next, immature, asshat reply while you are throwing shit at each other
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the best way to go is to be like TLO or Nony, cocky before the games but not a whiny bitch after losing.
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Someone mentioned how little to nothing Flash says, and yet he is super popular and loved in Korea, and even here on TL people adore that guy.
Does anyone wanna try guessing why?
A: Great haircut
His hair is the reason everyone loves him, its just dashing!
B: Great name
After a superhero comic at that! People love comics!
C: Great player
People love how good he is at playing Brood War
Hell, ill give you 2 tries!
The best will always be popular.
But look at someone like FirebatHero.
A good player, yes.
But hardly a Bonjwa, or even a truly dominant player like Bisu or Stork. There are many players who have accomplished just as much or more than him.
Yet he had a ton of fans, far more than most players on his level.
Why? Because he showed emotion. He brought liveliness to games, and made his rivalries more personal.
He also had a lot of people who hated him, for exactly the same reasons.
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But look at someone like FirebatHero.
A good player, yes.
But hardly a Bonjwa, or even a truly dominant player like Bisu or Stork. There are many players who have accomplished just as much or more than him.
Yet he had a ton of fans, far more than most players on his level.
Why? Because he showed emotion. He brought liveliness to games, and made his rivalries more personal.
He also had a lot of people who hated him, for exactly the same reasons.
You don't have to be a douche to show emotion.
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On September 17 2010 05:45 mierin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 05:43 figq wrote:
Ever seen chess players talking trash to each other? Scientists that argue about a solution? Well, playing strategy games is closer to these activities. I feel sorry for the described culture. Bobby Fischer? And yes, scientists/professors arguing about solutions is pretty much the norm... Arguing with trash talking however. There is no problem with trash talk, it's just noise. It means nothing. People who use it have been trained to believe it is important for some reason.
(i don't even know how to spell trash, apparently)
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You don't have to be a douche to show emotion.
Not all trash talk is "being a douche".
Saying, "I am the greatest. I'm gonna go out there and win, because I'm better than the other players" isn't be a douche, even if its cocky--its just giving your honest opinion.
Yet a lot of Starcraft fans would call that "BM" and demand that players spout some humble nonsense like, "I am a very flawed player still, but my hope is that through hard work and perseverence I will be able to win against my excellent opponents."
A lot of people seem to think I'm advocating acting like a 12 year old Modern Warfare player, and thats really not what I meant. Obviously calling everyone a fag, or making excuses every time you lose, isn't "badass", its just whiny childish bullshit.
But showing emotion, and being unafraid to state your honest opinion, even if that opinion is that you're the best (or at least, better than your opponent)? I think that can only help Starcraft.
edit: Michael Jordan and Muhammed Ali talked trash and acted cocky, but they acted NOTHING like some Halo-playing manchild. There's a big difference.
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that fact that bm bothers some people is proof that it works. so as long as it bothers people it will exist. it's used in all forms of competition. grow up and deal with it.
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On September 17 2010 06:22 Stossel wrote:
My preferred style of beating a trash-talker is just to stay silent and win. Unfortunately this fails to silence many trash-talkers in online games. Playing a large amount of HoN, some people will just complain and trash-talk regardless of what is being a said.
I played a ladder game a week or two ago against a toss who tried to proxy gate me. In response I added another gate before my cyber and made two zealots before he even made one (he was pretty bad). I had 4 zealots by the time I took his proxy down so I decided to send them to his base while I expanded so they didn't just sit around. He had 2 stalkers which tried to kite half my zealots while the other two took down probes (and they took down quite a few). He then says to me: "Zealout rush more noob."
I soon won, but not before he called me a scrub as well. This is the kind of BM people do not want to see in the community. If SC players have to stigmatize the "healthy" kind of BM as well to get rid of this stupid shit, fine. The less we see of this baseless trash-talk and braggadocio, the better off we are.
I think playing the mental game is fine, but professional athletes do it to gain an edge. If professional gamers did it to gain an edge, well that'd be one thing. But the concept of BM/GM didn't arise from professionals. It arouse from regular people. This etiquette is put in place to keep things civil and constructive so as to put the focus on THE GAME, rather some bullshit pissing match.
Most BMers are not top players. And when they BM other people who are worse, by telling them they're bad, or doing whatever, they are seemingly forgetting their own flaws. When you fail to empathize with an inferior opponent, you are ignoring your own weaknesses. People who ignore their own weaknesses are delusional pricks. And the worse the weakness, the more delusional you are. That's why seeing BM from a silver league player seems a lot more ridiculous than seeing BM from a professional athlete, even disregarding the "interweb" factor.
All that being said, pounding a trash-talker down is so god-damned satisfying.
This is the most intelligent post I've read in this thread so far.
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I dont think it is exclusive to SC. You cite other sports, but people flip out over stuff like that all the time there too. I think they get a bit more desensitized as it happens more (whereas being a sport is sort of a novelty for sc).
The other difference is you are on a message board, so you see all the reactions at the same time. If you visit an mma forum, you can see similar complaints about athletes not being classy, or something harming the image of the sport etc. I'm sure someone is at home raging on their couch whenever a soccer player does something BM  . I dont know if SC is particularly worse with this, but I feel it's not unreasonably more higher than anywhere else.
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Maybe the rest of the world is right and us americans are jerks?
Oh wait, what do i care, Im not gunna get upset because someone is typing mean words after they lose. Makes sports and games more entertaining imo.
Note:
I dont BM but I find it funny as hell
Edit:
On the subject of IdrA, being infamous for BM is better than not being known at all. I know he is one of the best zergs in the world and im not trying to imply that he is only famous for BM but people know about it and discuss it and for him thats good I doubt he cares if people dont like him, people are discussing him and thats what matters.
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On September 17 2010 06:38 awesomoecalypse wrote:Not all trash talk is "being a douche". Saying, "I am the greatest. I'm gonna go out there and win, because I'm better than the other players" isn't be a douche, even if its cocky--its just giving your honest opinion.
That's not trash talking.
Yet a lot of Starcraft fans would call that "BM" and demand that players spout some humble nonsense like,
BM != Trashtalk
A lot of people seem to think I'm advocating acting like a 12 year old Modern Warfare player, and thats really not what I meant. Obviously calling everyone a fag, or making excuses every time you lose, isn't "badass", its just whiny childish bullshit.
Then don't use Halo or CoD as examples.
But showing emotion, and being unafraid to state your honest opinion, even if that opinion is that you're the best (or at least, better than your opponent)? I think that can only help Starcraft.
Have you seen TLO play? Or the IEM 3rd place game in Germany between Dimaga and Tarson? That's emotion.
You don't have to trash talk to show emotion.
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This isnt xbox live and true sc players would prefer to keep it that way.
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that fact that bm bothers some people is proof that it works. so as long as it bothers people it will exist. it's used in all forms of competition. grow up and deal with it.
Works as what? What does it do other than make you a laughing stock?
Have you even checked other forums other than TL where people know IdrA just for his BM, they dont even realise the amount of work he puts in his games and how much he practices, but becuase BM is there (sometimes) he is just seen as a clown and nothing else. Sort of a circus entertaintment, yet he deserves more respect becuase of how much effort he puts, but few know that.
Meaning it dosent work, its the oppossite, it works AGAINST you.
Telling people to "grow up" and accept bad manners and trash talk is ironic, do you even know what it means to be a grown up? Im guessing not
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On September 17 2010 03:12 awesomoecalypse wrote:
Maybe its just because I'm an American, but this makes no sense to me.
At least in America, we *expect* our athletes to talk trash. We like it, and we idolize them for it.
No. I don't really. I think it makes them look like big dumb douchebags.
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Then don't use Halo or CoD as examples.
Find a single post by me where I did.
Every example I've given has been from great athletes in other sports.
Not whiny children. Not mediocre second raters.
Champions. Top notch competitors.
You don't have to trash talk to show emotion.
If you honestly feel that you are better than your opponent, than stating your honest emotions is going to come across as trash talk.
And I'll take honest emotions over manufactured, media-friendly "niceness" any day.
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On September 17 2010 06:45 awesomoecalypse wrote:If you honestly feel that you are better than your opponent, than stating your honest emotions is going to come across as trash talk. And I'll take honest emotions over manufactured, media-friendly "niceness" any day.
There is a difference in "I'm going to win, because I know I'm better than him". and "He is fucking trash, I'm not going to have any trouble at all."
One is trash talk, the other is just being cocky. Yes, there is a difference.
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And I'll take honest emotions over manufactured, media-friendly "niceness" any day.
Do you live in USA? What niceness is there in the media? Snooki got beaten up, Lohan is drugged up and is suiing, some woman beat her kids up, some priests molested some kids, global meltdown, all dying in 2012, iran has nuclear bombs, we all die tomorrow, al quaeda is back is bombing YOUR HOUSE NOW! etc
There is no "niceness" in the media, not even in politics (especially american politics). Its a fear mongering campaign so you spend your money on guns, incase some terrorist shows up, you buy the magazines to see how BM lohan is and how TOTALLY KEWL IT IS DAWG etc
There is also no niceness online, anywhere. How cool would it be if SC2 was the first to achieve that?
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EPT
