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On August 15 2010 03:37 Saracen wrote:
I don't understand why everyone hates on Desert Oasis. I have a sneaking suspicion it's because 1base all-ins are significantly less effective on that map...
I don't know either, outside of some toss shenanigans with forcefield and potentially drops, honestly I've never seen anything from DO that can really annoy me. Z has a lot of map control on that map and consequently, the siege/thor on cliff is readily dealt with. The long distance makes T and P pushes a nightmare. About the only thing I don't like about it as Z is probably how ZvZ ends up pretty one-tempo.
On August 15 2010 04:15 Hilberer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 03:37 Saracen wrote:
I don't understand why everyone hates on Desert Oasis. I have a sneaking suspicion it's because 1base all-ins are significantly less effective on that map... Becouse the nat is so far away from the main and there are 2 entrence to the nat. Making it easy to hellion harras or just rush up as p and forcefield the ramp.
I can understand the P forcefield one, but that's where maintaining a good vision of the map comes in handy. Considering we have an awesome tool to hold watchtowers in lings, it is really hard to miss most things that Toss would toss at you. Just be more wary if you scout a robo facility, 4gate has to traverse across all the way if you deny proxy pylon.
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Kulas is intolerable.
Steppes is OK, but a little tight when playing T
LT cliffs suck balls, otherwise map is fine.
Everything else is fine, I only really veto Kulas 100% of the time. Steppes of war, LT and Scrap Station can be lame in some situations, but are alright most of the time.
In order of best to worst:
Xel'Naga Caverns (this map makes me cream my pants due to its wide open areas where my zerglings can roam and be happy, not to mention the cross spawns)
Desert Oasis
Metalopolis
Delta Quadrant
Blistering Sands
Scrap Station
Lost Temple
Steppes Of War
Kulas Ravine
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On August 15 2010 03:37 Saracen wrote:
I don't understand why everyone hates on Desert Oasis. I have a sneaking suspicion it's because 1base all-ins are significantly less effective on that map...
Although I personally don't mind it (Z player) I think people are put off by the cliff overlooking the main, which can easily be exploited and take out all of your gas, when sieged tanks get to it. This I think, is even worse than a cliff in the natural...
EDIT: Just realised I was talking about the wrong map. +3 retard points for me.
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I think zerg should not be as afraid from cliffs over naturals, as is usually assumed by default. After downloading replay packs from recent tournaments and analyzing % in sc2gears, I noticed zergs actually win many games on Kulas, against the usual reasoning. At least in these recent tourneys.
It could be because more cliffs provide more hiding placements for overlords, or because zergs mobilize themselves to the max, assuming the map is tough for them. I don't know. Note that in most cases you can defend even very early, before lair - spine crawlers + overlords; after lair gets easier.
Meanwhile zergs lose a lot of games on Metalopolis. It could be because they try to get the rich minerals, and sieged tanks shoot them from the xel'naga towers. Both these map claims seemed counter-intuitive to me, but the data doesn't lie.
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there is no good map for zerg
metalopolis isnt thaaat bad though
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DO IS A GOOD ZERG MAP FFS.
It's probably the only zerg-favored map in the entire pool.
Flanking is easily done because you have vision of the entire map and theres so much open space (talking zvt here). You can hatch first like every game cause rush distance is so retardedly long. AND mutas are imba on this map due to insane mobility and short air distance.
Kulas sucks for insane # of cliffs/narrow chokes.
LT sucks cause of that stupid nat cliff but I'm having 2nd thoughts about it cause it's still a really good map in vz/vp.
Steppes/DQ are the only other two worth considering because they have rush distances of like what, 20 seconds? (compared to scrap which has like 60, do has like 80, blis has like 70) DQ is probably the worse one though cause the natural is wide as hell, the backdoor has a fucking cliff on it.
Right now I did kulas, steppes, dq. I do 1-base muta on LT specifically cause of that nat cliff. >.>
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@ohN, going hatch before pool is dangerous because of reaper play on DO. And all the cool kidslike their reaper cheese.
I am actually sad they removed Incineration Zone. Though it was so heavily anti zerg, I had lots of luck on that map and mutas were godly.
Right now, my least favorite map is Kulas. All the other maps are bearable. Even on DQ, most players (terrans) do not get their expo, and even when they do they are so easy to baneling bomb.
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I don't check off any maps, but I suppose I would knock kulas off, but that would be it. Actually naw, FE to the gold is too much fun! ^^ After all, they can't abuse the high ground if you don't get your nat!
In terms of desert oasis, I actually like FE builds on it, since the rush distance is HUGE. The ramp to your main is tiny, so you shouldn't have any trouble defending from run-by attacks, and by the time they move to your base you will probably have a whole extra production cycle on them.
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On August 15 2010 03:48 StarcraftGuy4U wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 03:19 fdsdfg wrote:On August 15 2010 03:13 StarcraftGuy4U wrote:
Kulas is an absolutely abysmal map for zerg, lost temple however with cunning overlord placement and spinecrawlers on the edge of your cliff is actually quite easily defended, and a sloppy terran will suicide two tanks before he realizes.
Well, there's two issues: 1 a siege tank at the far end cannot be reached by the spine crawlers and can power them down 2: a viking can scare away the overlords and there's not a damn thing you can do about it unless you have mutas If he has tanks, medevacs, and vikings, and you have NO answer, you are going to lose for other reasons. The FAST tank drop is the problem, not ANY tank drop.
What are you tlaking about? That IS the standard fast drop build. Please don't say things if you don't know what you're talking about. You already have a starport, it's not hard to get a viking.
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On August 15 2010 05:17 ohN wrote:
DO IS A GOOD ZERG MAP FFS.
It's probably the only zerg-favored map in the entire pool.
Flanking is easily done because you have vision of the entire map and theres so much open space (talking zvt here). You can hatch first like every game cause rush distance is so retardedly long. AND mutas are imba on this map due to insane mobility and short air distance.
Kulas sucks for insane # of cliffs/narrow chokes.
LT sucks cause of that stupid nat cliff but I'm having 2nd thoughts about it cause it's still a really good map in vz/vp.
Steppes/DQ are the only other two worth considering because they have rush distances of like what, 20 seconds? (compared to scrap which has like 60, do has like 80, blis has like 70) DQ is probably the worse one though cause the natural is wide as hell, the backdoor has a fucking cliff on it.
Right now I did kulas, steppes, dq. I do 1-base muta on LT specifically cause of that nat cliff. >.>
The biggest issue with DO (and Steppes) is when siege tanks park on the cliff outside your base - the walk distance is so long that it's difficult to do anything about the tanks, vikings can spot the high ground pretty easily at no risk, and the only thing you can really do about is is mass mutas. Engaging his army head-on with mass mutas is.. very rarely doable.
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DO and KR are absolutely abysmal, as a third I prefer to downvote LT. I actually kind of like delta quadrant and dislike Xelnaga caverns which is completely opposite of most zergs...I actually have never lost a game on Xelnaga caverns but it seems like every time I play it people find new ways to annoy me on it so maybe It's just mental lol.
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Baa?21246 Posts
I love Desert Oasis lol.
My three voted down maps arE:
LT, Kula (cliff FFFFU)
Steppes of War (the ridiculously short rush distance makes stuff like a fast Thor-marine push literally unstoppable for me)
If I had another vote I'd do TerranDelta Quadrant.
I love:
Scrap Station, Desert Oasis
Neutral towards Metalopolis, Blistering Sands, Xel Naga.
I highly encourage people to give DO another try. Speedling Muta gives a great amount of map control, and easy transition to Hydralisks. Expos are easy to take, so you can support your sudden tech switches while containing T/P. As long as you watch out for Void Rays/Banshees, that map should be a Zerg paradise imo...
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dislikes:
large ramps
cliffs over expos
close expos with rocks
short distances to opponents
various chokes
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As terran my strongest maps against Zerg are
Delta Quadrant
Steppes of War
Kulas Ravine
My weakest are
Xel'naga caverns
Desert Oasis
Blistering Sands
With cross position Metalopolis being one of the best for Zerg, while short distance Metalopolis being one of the best for Terran.
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As mediocre Diamond Zerg IMO
Blistering Sands: Great map, love the backdoor entrance
Desert Oasis: I refuse to play on. Terran siege can hit your main and bases are so close quick air raids are even more deadly
Scrap Station: Love the map. This map produces the most fun games so far.
Steppes of War: Hate it. Bases are so close it makes cheezy all in quick rushes too common. If games extent past the 10 minute mark, a fun map though
Xel Naga: Love the wide open map in the middle (well as wide open as these maps get). Probably highest win percentage
Kulas: Despite the built in disadvantages of cliffs over looking naturals, I've found this to be a great map. Lings can really dominate on this map IMO.
Lost Temple: I don't like this map, cliffs overlooking natural and the middle of the map is a death trap for us non-cliff users.
Metalopolis: Balanced and fair map.
Delta Quadrant: IMO this map gives a huge advantage to Terran. Essentially allowing them to 2base turtle
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(2) Blistering Sands
(2) Desert Oasis
(2) Scrap Station
(2) Steppes Of War
(2) Xel'Naga Caverns
(4) Kulas Ravine
(4) Lost Temple
(4) Metalopolis
(4) Delta Quadrant
I vetoed:
(4) Kulas Ravine
(4) Lost Temple
(2) Steppes Of War
I dislike the fast rush on steppes and the cliffs.
I love mutaling, so DO is one of my favorite maps. I also like the 4 player maps as rushes are harder (except the silly cliff ones).
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United States22883 Posts
This has been discussed before. Search please.
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EPT
