On July 08 2010 03:06 TheYango wrote: [quote] "Accountability" is not that straightforward when involved with something so easily misinterpreted as written word on the internet.
It's one thing to be accountable for things you actually said. It's another story when people take quotes out of context, can't see sarcastic tone as it's not expressed well in written form, or just plain misunderstand you.
But this is no different then real life when people can twist what you say. If it acts as impetus for people to put more thought into what they're saying, then it's really hard to argue against.
In real life you have a limited audience in front of you, you know who that audience is, you know exactly what you're sharing with whom. If you don't want someone to know something, you don't talk about it in his presence.
The internet is a much more powerful medium. On the internet, your audience is potentially every single person who has access to a computer. That includes your family, all your friends, your teachers, the people at work, your future employers. It also includes criminals, thieves, crazies, etc., etc.. Even better, your message doesn't fade over time. Are you sure you want everything you write today to be associated with you 20 years from now? Do you really want just anyone in the world to be able to associate your post with a name and an address if he doesn't like what you write?
Thinking this is going to turn the battle.net forums into a great forum where nobody posts unless they've got something important to say is naive. The general quality of posting will probably go up as a result, but having all real names exposed on a forum like that is just asking for trouble.
But everything you post are potentially read by everyone in the world already! The only difference is that now people can associate those posts with the real you, aka it adds accountability.
On July 08 2010 03:33 789 wrote:
On July 08 2010 03:12 Bibdy wrote: Why does accountability require your full name?
Why can't they just use any personalized unique identifier for your forum persona?
Seriously, this is just a damn online video game forum. Why is it so important that it needs to plaster something like your full name around in order to create that accountability? You would achieve the exact same effect of accountability by forcing people to post with a single identifier on the account. Whether its real or not, its still locked to that account and you can't change it without buying another one. Exact same effect as buying another account to generate a fake full name, only this time you did it to be a troll. Not to protect your identity.
One cannot fathom why they chose real name over any kind of unique identifier. They HAVE to know its important to a lot of people. They can't be THAT stupid.
Does anyone honestly think that it makes a difference to the CONTENT of your posts if you were forced to post everywhere on the internet with your current forumID on this site, than with your full name?
I'm willing to bet the content won't change. It only becomes a decision based on the desire to post at all.
This is a very good point that this guy has made more than a few times. Why go with real names when you could get the job done with a single unique identifier for that account. It brings accountibility without the privacy concerns - if you're in the habit of being a bad poster/troll people will come to recognize your name. It will also help the moderators. They don't need to worry about IPs, cd keys, or any of that jazz. They can just simply hand out the punishment to the account tied to that name.
It adds far less accountability, as the quote above notes people aren't afraid of what other people thinks about their ID but they are afraid of what they think about the real them.
Basically what happens is that they don't post things that they wouldn't want people to know, if the only punishment against flaming is that they are now unable to post people would still flame. If however their friends and family can potentially find out about this behavior then it is an extremely strong deterrent.
On July 08 2010 03:36 Graven wrote: And again, if there was no danger in being harrassed then there'd be no prevention of flaming/trolling to begin with, which is what was intended.
No, the danger is not about being harassed ffs, the danger is that someone you already know and cares about in real life finds out. Also the dangers of being harassed for posting on a forum will be no more than the danger of being harassed for walking down the street irl. Sure, more reads your posts, but there are also much more posts to be read. If you argue in a topic, there will be 20 others arguing in the same topic, why would he track down just you? The only reason celebrities have a problem with things like this is because they are known by everyone, just because people can see your name on a forum doesn't mean that they know you. It is just like how people on the street can see your face which is extremely intimate information but do anyone actually care about it?
Names are not a big deal and since it doesn't even come with a picture it is even less intimate than what millions already have on facebook which is open to all. I bet that a stalker or harasser would more likely seek out people who live near them on facebook with a picture they like rather than attacking a random bnet poster which will be one in a million of faceless names.
Except it only adds accountability for people with uncommon names. John Smith can post whatever the hell he pleases because there's a million others out there.
It isn't perfect but it is the strongest accountability you can have.
Do you really need to bring in that level of accountibility? It's the forum of a game. Do you really need to be held accountible in real life for the things you say there? If you think so, you need to take GAMES a little less seriously.
What's wrong with the accountibility of a unique name? Sure it isn't as much as tieing posts about a GAME to their real life repuation ... which I think is a step over the line. You have a habit of flaming and trolling? Your account gets banned from posting in any forum tied to it. You want to post in a forum again ... you have to buy a new game. That's far enough imo.
When you discuss with other people it is no longer just a game.
I think that this will revolutionize internet forums to the better. Why was facebook so successful? Because it made people use their real names. Real names makes people take it much more seriously, and it only works as long as everyone do it which is why Blizzard needs to do it this way.
If it becomes a huge problem they will most likely change it to only include WoW, but in WoW it will work perfectly. Hopefully in the end people will realize that it isn't such a huge deal to reveal your name on the net.
My name is Johan Strååt if anyone wonders. You can probably dig up a picture with that, but who cares really...
You are ignoring the fact that a gaming habit is something you want to hide from certain high level employers. Perhaps even more seriously this risks completely shutting out people who work with children/as teachers since they many of them cannot be seen socializing at the same places as the children they teach, no matter if it's online or offline. police officers will suddenly have to behave in a videogame setting as they do in RL etc etc.... All in all there are lots of reason why people might want their online and offline lives separate even ignoring the saftety concerns that most proponents seem to think are insignificant.
I'd say that when people realize how common it is for people to game the stigma about gaming will stop. The only reason the stigma is still there is because it is possible for people to hide that they game, once people realize that just about every guy below the age of 30 games now and then it should stop, but since people are afraid of talking about it that isn't common knowledge.
On July 08 2010 04:40 Razor[cF] wrote: Find me one post where a female is happy about the changes. At least where the girl is not a gamerwhore.
Gamerwhore - A female player who likes the attention of being female to supplement the lack of self esteem in real life.
This girl sure ain't happy:
how much u wanna bet klockan either
1.) doesnt watch this
or
2.) watches it but doesn't acknowledge the dozen+ great points it makes
(i know u werent replying to klockan but that's who im singling out because i already know he is actually an intelligent person)
She seems paranoid, not daring to speak in team speak just because she is afraid of people knowing that she is a female. And then in the end she starts to rant about a ton of random conspiracy theories, she seems to be very irrational.
Of course there are points that are of concern, but everybody seems to blow it all out of proportion. An extremely huge amount of people use facebook and they survived, this will not be even close as revealing as facebook is. Also Blizzard could add privacy options to disallow anyone who isn't a wow/sc2 player from viewing their posts, thus in an instant fixing all issues relating to your work or so.
This isn't paranoid at all. I remember before I stopped playing WoW I had 3 female friends who were in my guild an we played together a lot an ALL of them did the same basic thing to avoid exactly what she said in her video. I'm sure that other female games do the same beside the "Gamerwhores" or whatever you wanna call that type of person an yes I have run into a few and they do nothing but cause problems.(Yes speaking from my experiences in WoW)
Facebook has some security features, quite extensive ones for those that mind. Plus, the shear amount of users on Facebook provides an additional level of protection. That said... there have been Facebook stalkings and murders I'm sure.
I (having no faith in humanity) will simply wait until we get the first SC2 Forum killing/stalking/sexual predator. It will happen at some point, of that you need not doubt. The secondary problem some of you seem to be missing is that most of these forums are public, Participation is not required.
Lurkers (as in those that read but don't post) can and do frequent the threads, and all it takes is one crazy to set it off.
I doubt anyone will commit a murder because they were cheesed by some n00b on sc2, but it is the principle of the matter that blizzard is ignoring. If i want to have my real name for everyone to see i should have the choice to do so.
On July 08 2010 05:28 Saturnize wrote: I doubt anyone will commit a murder because they were cheesed by some n00b on sc2, but it is the principle of the matter that blizzard is ignoring. If i want to have my real name for everyone to see i should have the choice to do so.
Why? It's happened with other games, and those games surely don't make it as easy as realID is going to.
Yes.. if you want to have your name for everyone to see then you should have to choice to do so. Exactly. And you already have that choice, right now... You can make that your username. So what exactly are you saying?
On July 08 2010 04:24 StarBrift wrote: This is great. I've been opposed to idiotic kids playing cool behind a fake identity since the internet began. If you don't have balls enough to say what you want to say in public, then don't say it at all. Blizzard is doing this to prevent trolling and abusive behavior. Well worth it imo.
And you honestly think endangering people by broadly outing them; Revealing almost everything about their lives is going to do any better ?
It will just create more paranoia for regular players and dive flamers/trolls deeper underground, kind of like those oh-so-intelligent terrorism laws...
I've stated it before but when I was 14-15, if I had access to a persons name and address, a few heated online arguments could have ended in a VERY bad way... And I wasn't the only one, about 95% of Q2-CS players were broadly immature, impulsive and cocky little brats asking for trouble.
How old are you, seriously ?
What are you talking about? Do you really think people will seek other people out over disputes on the internet? And if you claim that you would have done that at 14 then dude, you were fucked up. Are you seriously going to argue that voilent retribution would be the standard?
Even if all that was true. Why are you saying stuff to people online that makes them want to kill you? Don't say stuff that you don't stand for and you'll be fine.
Also I don't think you understand the concept here. By introducing this you will MAKE kids less cocky. That's the whole point of any authority. People know something is bad for them so they don't do it. It has to do with intelligence not with animal instincts.
The fact that you use "they are going to murder each other" as an argument shows how weak your standpoint is.
On July 08 2010 05:28 Saturnize wrote: I doubt anyone will commit a murder because they were cheesed by some n00b on sc2, but it is the principle of the matter that blizzard is ignoring. If i want to have my real name for everyone to see i should have the choice to do so.
Why? It's happened with other games, and those games surely don't make it as easy and realID is going to.
Yes.. if you want to have your name for everyone to see then you should have to choice to do so. Exactly. And you already have that choice, right now... You can make that your username. So what exactly are you saying?
Ok, it COULD happen. But the chances of it happening are pretty slim wouldn't you agree?
That blizzard shouldn't force us to use our real names for our ID of course.
Slim, maybe, but with the entire internet able to view, obsess and obtain the information very, very easily? It's not as if the BNET forms or WoW forms are private. People who don't have accounts can still open them up and browse.
It's like covering your self in bloody fish and jumping into shark infested waters. Something bad WILL happen eventually.
On July 08 2010 05:28 Saturnize wrote: I doubt anyone will commit a murder because they were cheesed by some n00b on sc2, but it is the principle of the matter that blizzard is ignoring. If i want to have my real name for everyone to see i should have the choice to do so.
Why? It's happened with other games, and those games surely don't make it as easy and realID is going to.
Ok, it COULD happen. But the chances of it happening are pretty slim wouldn't you agree?
Of couse I agree, but does it really matter? Beyond someone being killed, there is tons of other bad shit that can happen. You can get your email spammed, your phone harrassed, your home harrassed, your family or children harrassed. Your children kidnapped. Your computer hacked. Your actual ID taken.
and the funny thing is I still haven't even read what the benefit of forcing realID is.
On July 08 2010 05:22 travis wrote: klockan you really think facebook is comparable to a video game forum? you don't see how vastly different those 2 things are?
one is public, one is private(if desired). one is used to socialize with friends and family, the other is used to publicly express views.
The point was that most who have facebook haven't activated most of the privacy features and it is still fine. I understand that there are those who are uneasy about it and I understand that people really don't want to be forced to do things, but I believe that it is the best for gaming overall to remove a bit of privacy surrounding it. Currently people are almost as secretive and uneasy about their gaming habits as their porn habits, which is just wrong in my opinion. Gaming isn't a sin and people shouldn't have to be ashamed for doing it.
But this is no different then real life when people can twist what you say. If it acts as impetus for people to put more thought into what they're saying, then it's really hard to argue against.
In real life you have a limited audience in front of you, you know who that audience is, you know exactly what you're sharing with whom. If you don't want someone to know something, you don't talk about it in his presence.
The internet is a much more powerful medium. On the internet, your audience is potentially every single person who has access to a computer. That includes your family, all your friends, your teachers, the people at work, your future employers. It also includes criminals, thieves, crazies, etc., etc.. Even better, your message doesn't fade over time. Are you sure you want everything you write today to be associated with you 20 years from now? Do you really want just anyone in the world to be able to associate your post with a name and an address if he doesn't like what you write?
Thinking this is going to turn the battle.net forums into a great forum where nobody posts unless they've got something important to say is naive. The general quality of posting will probably go up as a result, but having all real names exposed on a forum like that is just asking for trouble.
But everything you post are potentially read by everyone in the world already! The only difference is that now people can associate those posts with the real you, aka it adds accountability.
On July 08 2010 03:33 789 wrote:
On July 08 2010 03:12 Bibdy wrote: Why does accountability require your full name?
Why can't they just use any personalized unique identifier for your forum persona?
Seriously, this is just a damn online video game forum. Why is it so important that it needs to plaster something like your full name around in order to create that accountability? You would achieve the exact same effect of accountability by forcing people to post with a single identifier on the account. Whether its real or not, its still locked to that account and you can't change it without buying another one. Exact same effect as buying another account to generate a fake full name, only this time you did it to be a troll. Not to protect your identity.
One cannot fathom why they chose real name over any kind of unique identifier. They HAVE to know its important to a lot of people. They can't be THAT stupid.
Does anyone honestly think that it makes a difference to the CONTENT of your posts if you were forced to post everywhere on the internet with your current forumID on this site, than with your full name?
I'm willing to bet the content won't change. It only becomes a decision based on the desire to post at all.
This is a very good point that this guy has made more than a few times. Why go with real names when you could get the job done with a single unique identifier for that account. It brings accountibility without the privacy concerns - if you're in the habit of being a bad poster/troll people will come to recognize your name. It will also help the moderators. They don't need to worry about IPs, cd keys, or any of that jazz. They can just simply hand out the punishment to the account tied to that name.
It adds far less accountability, as the quote above notes people aren't afraid of what other people thinks about their ID but they are afraid of what they think about the real them.
Basically what happens is that they don't post things that they wouldn't want people to know, if the only punishment against flaming is that they are now unable to post people would still flame. If however their friends and family can potentially find out about this behavior then it is an extremely strong deterrent.
On July 08 2010 03:36 Graven wrote: And again, if there was no danger in being harrassed then there'd be no prevention of flaming/trolling to begin with, which is what was intended.
No, the danger is not about being harassed ffs, the danger is that someone you already know and cares about in real life finds out. Also the dangers of being harassed for posting on a forum will be no more than the danger of being harassed for walking down the street irl. Sure, more reads your posts, but there are also much more posts to be read. If you argue in a topic, there will be 20 others arguing in the same topic, why would he track down just you? The only reason celebrities have a problem with things like this is because they are known by everyone, just because people can see your name on a forum doesn't mean that they know you. It is just like how people on the street can see your face which is extremely intimate information but do anyone actually care about it?
Names are not a big deal and since it doesn't even come with a picture it is even less intimate than what millions already have on facebook which is open to all. I bet that a stalker or harasser would more likely seek out people who live near them on facebook with a picture they like rather than attacking a random bnet poster which will be one in a million of faceless names.
Except it only adds accountability for people with uncommon names. John Smith can post whatever the hell he pleases because there's a million others out there.
It isn't perfect but it is the strongest accountability you can have.
Do you really need to bring in that level of accountibility? It's the forum of a game. Do you really need to be held accountible in real life for the things you say there? If you think so, you need to take GAMES a little less seriously.
What's wrong with the accountibility of a unique name? Sure it isn't as much as tieing posts about a GAME to their real life repuation ... which I think is a step over the line. You have a habit of flaming and trolling? Your account gets banned from posting in any forum tied to it. You want to post in a forum again ... you have to buy a new game. That's far enough imo.
When you discuss with other people it is no longer just a game.
I think that this will revolutionize internet forums to the better. Why was facebook so successful? Because it made people use their real names. Real names makes people take it much more seriously, and it only works as long as everyone do it which is why Blizzard needs to do it this way.
If it becomes a huge problem they will most likely change it to only include WoW, but in WoW it will work perfectly. Hopefully in the end people will realize that it isn't such a huge deal to reveal your name on the net.
My name is Johan Strååt if anyone wonders. You can probably dig up a picture with that, but who cares really...
You are ignoring the fact that a gaming habit is something you want to hide from certain high level employers. Perhaps even more seriously this risks completely shutting out people who work with children/as teachers since they many of them cannot be seen socializing at the same places as the children they teach, no matter if it's online or offline. police officers will suddenly have to behave in a videogame setting as they do in RL etc etc.... All in all there are lots of reason why people might want their online and offline lives separate even ignoring the saftety concerns that most proponents seem to think are insignificant.
I'd say that when people realize how common it is for people to game the stigma about gaming will stop. The only reason the stigma is still there is because it is possible for people to hide that they game, once people realize that just about every guy below the age of 30 games now and then it should stop, but since people are afraid of talking about it that isn't common knowledge.
On July 08 2010 04:56 travis wrote:
On July 08 2010 04:43 ta2 wrote:
On July 08 2010 04:40 Razor[cF] wrote: Find me one post where a female is happy about the changes. At least where the girl is not a gamerwhore.
Gamerwhore - A female player who likes the attention of being female to supplement the lack of self esteem in real life.
2.) watches it but doesn't acknowledge the dozen+ great points it makes
(i know u werent replying to klockan but that's who im singling out because i already know he is actually an intelligent person)
She seems paranoid, not daring to speak in team speak just because she is afraid of people knowing that she is a female. And then in the end she starts to rant about a ton of random conspiracy theories, she seems to be very irrational.
Of course there are points that are of concern, but everybody seems to blow it all out of proportion. An extremely huge amount of people use facebook and they survived, this will not be even close as revealing as facebook is. Also Blizzard could add privacy options to disallow anyone who isn't a wow/sc2 player from viewing their posts, thus in an instant fixing all issues relating to your work or so.
This isn't paranoid at all. I remember before I stopped playing WoW I had 3 female friends who were in my guild an we played together a lot an ALL of them did the same basic thing to avoid exactly what she said in her video. I'm sure that other female games do the same beside the "Gamerwhores" or whatever you wanna call that type of person an yes I have run into a few and they do nothing but cause problems.(Yes speaking from my experiences in WoW)
Many females don't hide that they are females in wow, as long as they don't flirt with everyone around, posts or in some other way makes a big deal out of it they are typically left alone. Girls don't speak since they are afraid that people will react in a certain way, but people are not that bad.
On July 08 2010 05:28 Saturnize wrote: I doubt anyone will commit a murder because they were cheesed by some n00b on sc2, but it is the principle of the matter that blizzard is ignoring. If i want to have my real name for everyone to see i should have the choice to do so.
Why? It's happened with other games, and those games surely don't make it as easy and realID is going to.
Ok, it COULD happen. But the chances of it happening are pretty slim wouldn't you agree?
Of couse I agree, but does it really matter? Beyond someone being killed, there is tons of other bad shit that can happen. You can get your email spammed, your phone harrassed, your home harrassed, your family or children harrassed. Your children kidnapped. Your computer hacked.
and the funny thing is I still haven't even read what the benefit of forcing realID is.
I'm not promoting the Real ID in anyway, I'm just trying to be as unbiased as possible.
On July 08 2010 05:28 Saturnize wrote: I doubt anyone will commit a murder because they were cheesed by some n00b on sc2, but it is the principle of the matter that blizzard is ignoring. If i want to have my real name for everyone to see i should have the choice to do so.
Why? It's happened with other games, and those games surely don't make it as easy and realID is going to.
Ok, it COULD happen. But the chances of it happening are pretty slim wouldn't you agree?
Of couse I agree, but does it really matter? Beyond someone being killed, there is tons of other bad shit that can happen. You can get your email spammed, your phone harrassed, your home harrassed, your family or children harrassed. Your children kidnapped. Your computer hacked.
and the funny thing is I still haven't even read what the benefit of forcing realID is.
I'm not promoting the Real ID in anyway, I'm just trying to be as unbiased as possible.
well good for you (not sarcasm)
I am not being biased either. where is the benefit of this at? the only purpose I can even see for it is information collecting. Aren't they limiting us to only one account anyways? So what is the benefit, what's the justification?
i don´t know but i would´nt feel comfortable with people like this
knowing my real name.
Many females don't hide that they are females, as long as they don't flirt with everyone around, posts or in some other way makes a big deal out of it they are typically left alone. Girls don't speak since they are afraid that people will react in a certain way, but people are not that bad.
On July 08 2010 04:24 StarBrift wrote: This is great. I've been opposed to idiotic kids playing cool behind a fake identity since the internet began. If you don't have balls enough to say what you want to say in public, then don't say it at all. Blizzard is doing this to prevent trolling and abusive behavior. Well worth it imo.
And you honestly think endangering people by broadly outing them; Revealing almost everything about their lives is going to do any better ?
It will just create more paranoia for regular players and dive flamers/trolls deeper underground, kind of like those oh-so-intelligent terrorism laws...
I've stated it before but when I was 14-15, if I had access to a persons name and address, a few heated online arguments could have ended in a VERY bad way... And I wasn't the only one, about 95% of Q2-CS players were broadly immature, impulsive and cocky little brats asking for trouble.
How old are you, seriously ?
What are you talking about? Do you really think people will seek other people out over disputes on the internet? And if you claim that you would have done that at 14 then dude, you were fucked up. Are you seriously going to argue that voilent retribution would be the standard?
Even if all that was true. Why are you saying stuff to people online that makes them want to kill you? Don't say stuff that you don't stand for and you'll be fine.
Also I don't think you understand the concept here. By introducing this you will MAKE kids less cocky. That's the whole point of any authority. People know something is bad for them so they don't do it. It has to do with intelligence not with animal instincts.
The fact that you use "they are going to murder each other" as an argument shows how weak your standpoint is.
It has to do with a filter. So you're advocating that big brother is always watching. In that case, walk around everyday with a microphone on and allow all of your friends, family, employers, etc... be able to listen to any second they want. That is the same thing. I wouldn't want what I say to friends at a gathering to somehow come back to bite me in the ass with people I don't know just as I wouldn't want something I post on forums about telling some noob to respec and l2p.
Many females don't hide that they are females, as long as they don't flirt with everyone around, posts or in some other way makes a big deal out of it they are typically left alone. Girls don't speak since they are afraid that people will react in a certain way, but people are not that bad.
You need to hang around the irc channel more. Or really, anywhere where a girl occasional makes an appearance. Anyways, i think the effect of this is overblown - however, with communities such as 4chan, it still makes me nervous.
Why is everyone getting all bothered by the most extreme cases, like a murder as a result of RealID? The most likely scenario that would happen is some idiot kid getting upset, finding your email/phone number and putting it into every **SIGN UP YOU WIN TODAY** pop up he can find, or spamming your facebook etc. Small scale harrassment such as that is what would be the most prevelant problem, and is more than enough reason not to use REALid.
On July 08 2010 05:38 Klockan3 wrote: Many females don't hide that they are females in wow, as long as they don't flirt with everyone around, posts or in some other way makes a big deal out of it they are typically left alone. Girls don't speak since they are afraid that people will react in a certain way, but people are not that bad.
My sister plays video games and you're just dead wrong. My sister generally goes out of her way to keep it on the down low, but when it does get out it gets really creepy. From my experience of seeing my sister play - they are not left alone.
I don't understand what your screenshot is supposed to show.
Yes, poor screencap on my part. There is a warning at the bottom in red text.
"Help keep these forums a fun and safe place for everyone - please report any Code of Conduct violations you see, including:
•Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities. •Posts containing personal information about other players. Physical/email addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos. •Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated."
EPT![[image loading]](http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/2856/lolft.jpg)
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