On June 03 2010 02:53 hejakev wrote: Platinum protoss player here. Tanks have become more of a tier 3 unit, where they were a tier 2 unit in SC1. More often than not, I will have zealot charge, stalker blink, or a bunch of immortals to help me with the tanks. I have yet to see a successful tank-heavy build like people would do in BW.
I went up against someone who litterally just got mass tanks vikings and cloaked banshees. I had maxed supply of hydra roach and couldnt break his army. I ended up winning by dropping in his base due to his immobile army and expanding while we traded bases. I feel there was no way that a zerg could break an army like that. Granted I won due to base trading antics, but I feel that is a strange way to have to win against a build.
Maps need to be bigger. solves the problem. Also Mothership (LOL i know it's actually good in this case for once) and carriers (LOL again yeah, try it instead of knocking it, I've tried it already so shh) do pretty well in addition to ground units. motherships do wonders by vortex/mass recall and less so the cloak. but as in sc1 the best way to beat a TON of tanks is keep them sieged by their base and catch them when they are moving.
On June 03 2010 02:29 PredY wrote: first of all i can't believe some ppl saying terrans win only because they use imba units and strats and don't have any skill otherwise! wtf is that also im sure top terrans agree that mech is really strong (vs z) and wouldn't mind if blizz nerfed smth, we would just get on with it and tweak the builds again oh and mech vs P is crap on most of the maps (its ok on LT i think) because P can either rush or just build up zealots ht immortals void rays and own.
On June 03 2010 02:15 ThePassingShadow wrote: Protoss doesn't really have much of a problem with a Terran mech build because there are so many counters to tanks and Thors. Anything from upgraded charge zealots to immortals to even void rays. A mostly mechanical Terran build is easily countered. Immortals hurt tanks early, Void Rays give vision for cliff tanks, while hitting them hard as well. Out in the open, charge zealots are pretty effective at cutting down tanks, especially if there's no biological units to back them up. Went stalker heavy ? Blink into the tanks. Obviously this doesn't work very well with tons of tanks OR with tanks that have backup, but lone tanks are doomed.
If that's the problem, then ... What you're doing wrong is letting your opponent get fifteen tanks. Don't let him outmacro you; put the pressure on him constantly.Don't ever let your opponent be walking around with fifteen tanks.
Clearly you are simply theorycrafting, none of this works in a regular game. The strategy of not letting you opponent get ~15 tanks has been tried, and the best way to do this is to simply rush and win the game. Other than that, you cannot effectively keep their tank numbers low when they are content to turtle with their natural and mass up.
It's not a case of being outmacroed, it's a case of the Terran producing units, which when built up enough, cannot be stopped. It's not like the Terran is mass expanding with 5 siege tanks, and I'm just too much of a dope to attack, they stay in their base. Besides attacking right in to their choke (which can also work, but then the problem becomes, if they go tank, you have to win right away), you cannot effectively limit their tank numbers. Try some of your own ideas out before you post them, because the idea that, "Zealots own tanks, immortals own tanks, blink stalkers own tanks; how can Protoss players complain?" is getting really annoying to read when the people have no idea what they are talking about.
How much do fifteen tanks cost ? 150/125 x 15 = 2250/1875
If you're not putting enough pressure on your opponent to stop them from getting fifteen tanks from one base, then they could have won by other means even earlier. By the way, I never said "zealots own tanks" etcetera. They have to be used appropriately. You want to put the pressure on them really early before they can get a lot of tanks. I play Protoss against Terran every single day in Diamond League and against high-level Diamond League friends and the best way to deal with tanks is to prevent them from reaching critical mass.
I'm really not trying to start an aggressive discussion here; please don't post things like "when the people have no idea what they are talking about". Watch some replays; it'll really help. There are tons of and tons of PvT replays out there where the Protoss player comes out on top. Check them out, like I have and others have. Early pressure with zealots, sentries and stalkers can prevent early tanks; tech into immortals or void rays if you see an extremely marauder-heavy army. Box your opponent in; if he cannot expand, he has no hope of making FIFTEEN siege tanks. If your opponent is just hanging back in his base using siege tanks for defence, check to see how many he has. If he's only got one and you can break through to take it out, do so and keep putting pressure on him; maybe use a proxy pylon to reinforce. If he's got more tanks than you can handle, just keep his natural under your control, keep macroing, expand yourself, and you should come out ahead. Make sure to scout around the map to make sure he doesn't float any CCs over there. It's pretty effective.
Again, I'd like to stress that I'm only trying to be helpful here, not attacking you.
On June 03 2010 02:53 hejakev wrote: Platinum protoss player here. Tanks have become more of a tier 3 unit, where they were a tier 2 unit in SC1. More often than not, I will have zealot charge, stalker blink, or a bunch of immortals to help me with the tanks. I have yet to see a successful tank-heavy build like people would do in BW.
I went up against someone who litterally just got mass tanks vikings and cloaked banshees. I had maxed supply of hydra roach and couldnt break his army. I ended up winning by dropping in his base due to his immobile army and expanding while we traded bases. I feel there was no way that a zerg could break an army like that. Granted I won due to base trading antics, but I feel that is a strange way to have to win against a build.
try and break a maxed tank gol vult vessel army in scbw with hydra ling ultra or any unit combo you want and its going to fail~ straight up.. maxed Mech army has allways > zerg in scbw or sc2.. nothing new.. thats why zergs have to use there brain.. sadly they would rather QQ then actually nydas worm , drop or over expand at first sight of mech.
On June 03 2010 02:15 ThePassingShadow wrote:Immortals hurt tanks early
No... just no. Maybe if they were immune to EMP, but as it is, immortals are the least cost effective unit vs tanks.
If they get a ghost academy, AND a ghost, AND a tank, AND siege mode, and have enough energy to EMP an immortal, I don't think we're talking about 'early' anymore.
It takes a LONG time to build up a mech army, just take advantage of that and expand~! You should be able to have 3 saturated bases and a 4th coming vs a 2 base mech timing push.
On June 03 2010 03:04 Lz wrote: try and break a maxed tank gol vult vessel army in scbw with hydra ling ultra or any unit combo you want and its going to fail~ straight up.. maxed Mech army has allways > zerg in scbw or sc2.. nothing new.. thats why zergs have to use there brain.. sadly they would rather QQ then actually nydas worm , drop or over expand at first sight of mech.
The problem LZ is that the maps tend to be a little too small for this. but besides that i agree with you (as a random/zerg player)
On June 03 2010 02:53 hejakev wrote: Platinum protoss player here. Tanks have become more of a tier 3 unit, where they were a tier 2 unit in SC1. More often than not, I will have zealot charge, stalker blink, or a bunch of immortals to help me with the tanks. I have yet to see a successful tank-heavy build like people would do in BW.
I went up against someone who litterally just got mass tanks vikings and cloaked banshees. I had maxed supply of hydra roach and couldnt break his army. I ended up winning by dropping in his base due to his immobile army and expanding while we traded bases. I feel there was no way that a zerg could break an army like that. Granted I won due to base trading antics, but I feel that is a strange way to have to win against a build.
try and break a maxed tank gol vult vessel army in scbw with hydra ling ultra or any unit combo you want and its going to fail~ straight up.. maxed Mech army has allways > zerg in scbw or sc2.. nothing new.. thats why zergs have to use there brain.. sadly they would rather QQ then actually nydas worm , drop or over expand at first sight of mech.
Hi Lz! CatZ dropped all over you in Lost Temple last Sunday night with banelings into your workers, roaches and hydras on cliffs, and even ended up with some broodlords, but when you decided it was time to move out, he still got rolled. (Here's the game)
Do you think (as I did) that infestors would be the only real way to deal with your 10+ tanks and 5 thors?
I think terran mech needs a slight nerf. You can't expect every kind of build be perfectly balanced between races. I just hope Blizzard don't overdo it when they get to it. If terran mech gets nerf significantly, zerg will just start to roll over terrans if everything else stays the same.
On June 03 2010 03:07 superbabosheki wrote: It takes a LONG time to build up a mech army, just take advantage of that and expand~! You should be able to have 3 saturated bases and a 4th coming vs a 2 base mech timing push.
Agreed. It's so funny when a Zerg masses up to 200/200 off of 2 bases, sends his "OVERWHELMINGLY HUGE, UNSTOPPABLE, SUPER DUPER ARMY (HEY IT'S 200/200 AFTER ALL!) into a defensively positioned mech army, loses, then doesn't have the production capacity to reproduce a large enough army in time, and loses when terran counters. Stop trying to win in the first 10 minutes, set up for the long game, and zerg does quite well vs mech. Don't be stupid and impatient.
I think theres tons of ways to counter mech. 1 such way is to go for more nydus worms, drops and mutas and banelings. Zerg has lots of mobility and if you can use that mobility in the early-mid game mech is significantly weaker.
On June 03 2010 03:04 EleanorRIgby wrote: Maybe give mutas a hive tech upgrade that nullifies splash damage?
Or just spread your mutas like a big boy?
I'm just tired of the complaining really, i have a zerg practice partner and we have probably played 20 tvz mech games and he has found a style that really stands up to it if not more.
On June 03 2010 02:53 hejakev wrote: Platinum protoss player here. Tanks have become more of a tier 3 unit, where they were a tier 2 unit in SC1. More often than not, I will have zealot charge, stalker blink, or a bunch of immortals to help me with the tanks. I have yet to see a successful tank-heavy build like people would do in BW.
I went up against someone who litterally just got mass tanks vikings and cloaked banshees. I had maxed supply of hydra roach and couldnt break his army. I ended up winning by dropping in his base due to his immobile army and expanding while we traded bases. I feel there was no way that a zerg could break an army like that. Granted I won due to base trading antics, but I feel that is a strange way to have to win against a build.
try and break a maxed tank gol vult vessel army in scbw with hydra ling ultra or any unit combo you want and its going to fail~ straight up.. maxed Mech army has allways > zerg in scbw or sc2.. nothing new.. thats why zergs have to use there brain.. sadly they would rather QQ then actually nydas worm , drop or over expand at first sight of mech.
Hi Lz! CatZ dropped all over you in Lost Temple last Sunday night with banelings into your workers, roaches and hydras on cliffs, and even ended up with some broodlords, but when you decided it was time to move out, he still got rolled. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNAUspM640AHere's the game)
Do you think (as I did) that infestors would be the only real way to deal with your 10+ tanks and 5 thors?
i think he lost his natural to a thor on his cliff.. and he didnt expand very much.. THINK BW.. Becasue mech works same way.. 3 base terran (1 of those being a GOLD) vs. 4 base zerg no gold.. who going to win... hmmmm Terran due to there units allways being more cost effective.
On June 03 2010 03:19 Lz wrote: i think he lost his natural to a thor on his cliff.. and he didnt expand very much.. THINK BW.. Becasue mech works same way.. 3 base terran (1 of those being a GOLD) vs. 4 base zerg no gold.. who going to win... hmmmm Terran due to there units allways being more cost effective.
Hey Lz, could you count for me "how much hits it took from that thor to kill the WHOLE expansion? and also count in seconds how much time it took to kill that expansion?"
Took 28secs for a SINGLE thor to kill a WHOLE expansion With 22 hits (well 44 if you concider each attack 2 hits)
28 SECONDS!!! and it was only 6min40 in the game!!!
if we get the same numbers of hit and time to kill the expansion, I would like you to look me right into my eyes and say that Tmech isn't overpowered ESPECIALY thors with mobility provided by the medivacs
Another thing to point out, is that in many of these games that are being used as examples of mech being overpowered (i.e. Sheth vs QXC) there's essentially a stalemate situation where neither terran nor zerg can attack the other, without losing their entire army. The Sheth vs QXC game on steppes of war for example, Sheth throws giant wads of zerg blob at QXC's tanks, loses them, and QXC is STILL not in a position to attack, because zerg can rebuild a large enough army very quickly due to saved up resources. Clearly over time terran gains a massive advantage when zerg does this, as he simply has more resources unspent at the end of the game. If at any time QXC decided to unsiege all of his tanks and engage zerg, with both having a 200/200 army, zerg would win convincingly as he'd flank the shit out of him and keep a maxed out army due to superior production mechanics.
On June 02 2010 20:47 GoDannY wrote: To my honest opinion this is the main issue and it's no longer like "swarming a-click", it is more and people begged for it: more caster/ability-heavy play (see overseer buff and infestor changes).
Zerg has such powerful abilities/casters vs Mech too.. such as.. uh.. frenzy.. and uhh.. infested terran... and corruption... yeah. Why not changelings too? Don't even mention FG vs tanks. It's good against bio, and that's nice, but it's terrible vs Mech.
I mean really GoDannY, how often do you play Zerg? Would you mind pointing me to these awesome casters and abilities I don't know about?
EPT
