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On June 03 2010 01:02 koppik wrote:
I think in order for it to really be imbalanced, terrans would really need to start really winning against zerg with mech in tournaments with a decent frequency.
It's hard to say "TvZ is soo terran favored" and then watch a tournament end up with 1 terran in the Ro8 (and seven zergs), or to have all the terrans use a mech-ish style and have Zerg win almost all of the games, like in some recent Asian tournaments. I guess there's the argument that "terran players suck" or that "terran play hasn't evolved enough yet", but . . .
Have there even been a lot of tournaments lately?
The argument around players seems really hypocritical.
There aren't any good Terran players isn't a valid complaint, but then saying that Zerg players aren't adapting or are a1 moving IS. Basically people are saying that you can't just say Terran players suck, but then say that Zerg players do suck (remember high profile Zerg players are claiming the matchup isn't fair or is heavily map dependent).
Likewise people say that Zerg players need time to adapt their strategies, but then claim that a lack of tournament wins are proof of balance. Well mech is a fairly new strategy, so how can people point to a lack of tournament wins while also saying the difficulties players are having are because they haven't had time to fully work out the counter strategies.
I dunno it just seems like some people are making hypocritical arugments.
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On June 03 2010 00:52 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
i wont say its perfectly balanced cause i dont know. but i wont agree its a problem yet either.
I doupt TvP is that huge of a problem cause they have immortals that rapes tanks and thors while speedlots and such just killl and blah blah blah..... THEY HAVE A COUNTER.
Problem is that zerg have 0 counter since the combination of hellions, tanks and thors will just rape anything you can throw at them.
Basicaly what I'm saying is that
PvT:
Immortals > tank / thor
speedlots > tank / thor
Blink Stalkers >= sieged tanks
.......
TvZ:
Thors > Roaches / Hydra / Muta / Corrupter and even Broodlords if supported by hellions
Tanks > Roaches (3range anyone?) / hydra (we could almost add ultra)
Hellions > zerglins
and MOST Tmech will go 2-3 thors + 8-10 tanks and 4-5 hellions.
Now...
Mutas are supposed to be better (>) than TANK (uh seriously) but can't reach em cause 2-3 thors will litteraly kill ungodly ammount of mutas. Roach is out of the question cause of the poor range they have. By the time they can hit on tanks they are kinda dead.... burrow is out of the question since most GOOD Tmechs will use towers around their tanks or do at least 1 detector. Hydras are just getting plain raped by any units of this comp, broodlords doesn't live long enough to tell the story as they have no mobility and SOOOOO easily countered by vickings/thors and muta is again out of the question since they are being raped by thors. Ultras (even with the new speed) aren't quite the solution cause of their HUGENESS and have an hardtime to even hit once. infestors NP is on a RANGE: 9 while siege tanks are on RANGE: 13. So zerg has to use drops but now Turrets have 50 more hps and hit hard (from what I beleive) than in SC1 also vicking will destroy any type of OVs that will try to do any drops and IdrA did a good point imo and altho detect towers are underused when terran learns to use them.... it's going to be zomg for Z. Finaly Nydus isn't the solution since 4-5 SCV can deal with it if you have good map awareness.
Basicaly what I'm trying to say is that Tmech isn't imba at all! Zerg needs to L2P!
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Well the counter to bio/turtling teching terran is to go 1 gate cyber duel gas SAVE THAT GAS get one robo and while that robos building build a stalker if u have the extra 50 gas. if not, zlot. when ur robos done start that immortal. you really need to be careful with the probe production, because this is just about an all-in, once that immortal is building YOU will have enough gas to add on a second robo. (immortals build slow even with crono) ur second robo should warp in right after ur 1st immortal steps out. start another immortal. crono boost...then build a stalker or two. for his first banshee that he might get. as soon as you have two immortals and 2 stalkers rally ur 2 robos to ur immortals...and ur gate way to ur stalker..you will prolly still have cash...as u get way more mins in sc2 than BW.. so you can even add on another gate AND get ur warp gate upgrade strated so even if they attack doesnt penitrate his wall...you can just remake ur army and come back for round two. beucase you have forced him to produce marines/mara. u can even get a cent throw up a shield over the two immortals so you can get up that ramp..they kill supply depots in like literally 3 shots.... then u have those extra troops rallyed ...i dont know im in diamond and i dont think iv had a terran yet to stop that build. even if he gets that first siege tank out...immortals will clean that up..you gotta figure out way to hit a terran as fast as possible. when they get room to tech..look out.
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On June 03 2010 00:52 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:people have to do what terrans did. adjust.
i mean thru how many openings and unit comps did T go since the start of the beta?
There's not going to be any BO or unit comp to counter mech for Z. There's no adjustments to be made. It comes down to trickery and battle tactics to beat mech, and generally just hoping that they screw up.
I agree it's too early to tell, but it's showing very evident signs that if mech play is perfected (yes, mech can be even stronger), it will be impossible to stop.
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The reason tanks are so much stronger in SC2 is for two reasons. One, Muta are less practical in the mid game vs mech. Two, tanks do full damage to everything, rather than reduced damage like they did in BW. As a result, a critical number of tanks is much lower than a critical number in BW.
It also doesn't hurt that Roaches are basically BW hydras with low range and higher food and SC2 Hydras are unusable due to the different damage set up.
Those are the main problems people are having, but I don't think all options have been examined enough for anyone to claim imbalance. Right now I'm just calling it hard for zerg
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I don't think the "trick" to beating mech is any particular unit by itself. It's a strategy. Whenever a top zerg crushes a top terran going mech, the zerg was aggressive. You can't play the match-up using the IdrA-style "come get me" turtling zerg. The terran will say "no thanks" and proceed to build tanks and 100 turrets on his side of the map.
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Ultras are not useful against mech. With their low HP and tanks doing a ridiculous 60 (+5) damage a shot, ultras just melt while everything around it gets killed. Dropping is good; but dangerous. A few turrets around a terrans base will cause you to lose about half of your drop force. Then its GG.
Also, I see some terrans automatically get a raven against Z if they see roaches, or against P if they suspect some DT play, so against T, hallucinations don't work. Also, burrowed roach attacks don't work.
You could go Mutalisks, but he would see that you went Muta; and just go kill your base.
Yes, Terran mech is incredibly Imbalanced.
I would suggest a huge nerf to sieged damage 60 (+5) to 45 (+5) That might not even be enough though, IMO.
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I think the only solution to tanks being imba is to make them dumber like SC:BW which overkills stuff.
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As I posted in another thread:
On June 02 2010 14:29 Salv wrote:
PvT vs siege tanks right now is a huge, huge problem, and I'm going to explain why. There are two variations to a tank heavy build that I see. The first is to make tanks, hellions, and vikings, and the second is to make tanks, marines, and vikings.
This can be beat with a unit composition of colossi, phoenixes, stalkers, zealots, immortals. The exact ratio you use I am not totally sure on, but the theory behind this is really easy. When you see tanks first being made, you need to add a stargate and start making phoenixes, it's critical that when he does push out that you have a lot of phoenix's to lift up the tanks. Phoenixes don't take much damage from vikings, so you will be able to get lifts on the tanks, and that should take care of the majority of his tank army for now. Your colossi will rip up the marines very, very quickly, you only need four seconds or so to completely decimate them. After that, you can re-lift tanks with your remaining phoenix's and then move in the rest of your army.
So what's the problem? The problem is if you opponent makes siege tanks, hellions, and vikings, you're going to in a lot of trouble. For the above strategy to work, you have to add a stargate and pump phoenix from the beginning of the game, once you know he is doing a siege tank build. If you try this versus siege tank, hellion, and vikings, it will fail really bad. The problem is that colossi and your regular army can't tear through hellions quick enough. Colossi don't hit as many because hellions are bigger, and they have more HP. You can move in with phoenix's and lift tanks, but you won't be able to get through the rest of his army in time before the tanks land, and when they do, your army is going to get smashed.
So what works versus siege tank, hellions, and vikings? Nothing. I have played over twenty games with a practice partner and he has not lost a single game, and we have tried every possible combination. Siege tanks simply destroy every thing on the ground when you hit a certain number of them (~15). Vikings also do not lose to anything in the air that Protoss can offer. Vikings beat void rays, they are even with carriers, and while they lose slightly to phoenixes in even cost, phoenixes aren't going to help you deal with the actual tank force. Every possible combination I have tried, and every possible combination has failed. Open up unit tester and try different mixtures yourself, as long as you give the Terran ~15 tanks, nothing will come close to winning.
The weakness of the Terran tank army is mobility, I could easily imagine in a game being able to harass their base with blink stalkers when they move out too far away from their main, or just counter their expansions when they push you a la SC:BW. However you still have to deal with their army at some point, and you simply cannot. The only strategies I have been able to think of are to either avoid their army and try to destroy their ability to rebuild, and then have carriers building some where on the map. Carriers will be an even resource count of vikings slightly, and I suppose if the Terran couldn't replenish, you would win the game.
The other strategy would be to not let Terran get to a critical number of tanks, unfortunately they can do this off of two base. I've tried strategies of blinking in to a Terran's base to whittle down their tank numbers, but this doesn't work very well either. The best strategy is to simply rush the Terran and kill them that way, before the option of massing tanks even opens itself up.
In Starcraft PvT, the Terran ball was very hard to kill too, when they had 3-3 upgrades it was a very difficult battle. However stasis and good flanking ensured that you could whittle it down, unfortunately that isn't possible for SC II, you cannot even effectively take away a third of their army while sacrificing your own. I am completely out of options for this style of play and I have yet to see a replay of how to properly deal with this.
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The real problem with ZvT when the game gets a little long is the Thor/Tank combo.
Nothing Zerg is really strong enough to take that on, even with flanking, without disproportionate losses. And if the T has done his job keeping some pressure on you and not letting you overexpand wildly, you are in serious trouble.
But yeah, Thor air AOE + Tank ground AOE = ouch.
Even excluding thors, a good marine support with tanks = shreds any Z ground and marines can put some serious hurt on potential muta snipers.
I'm thinking eventually either Thor or Tanks will have to be nerfed, or they will have to buff some kind of Zerg response to that. Right now in the ZvTmech lategame Z needs to outplay his opponent significantly.
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Russian Federation125 Posts
Thors aren't HARD counter for muta. i might surprise u but 4 mutas will kill 1 thor, 8mutas will kill 2 thors 12 will kill 3 thors etc. 20mutas +2corraptors will kill 5 thors and you will have 7 mutas +2 corraptors left after this if you will simply make 2 groups by 10muta and cor in each and attack from 2 sides(it isn't that hard right?  )
I mean that yeh thors counter muta but they can be killed by muta for a reasonable price and all you need for this is a little micro to not make muta stack, just A move and muta will do fine with thors. I rather often win terrans with muta just because the rely on thors too much and don't build marines vikings as antimuta support for thors. I'm 300 plat zerg.
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Hallucinations would probably be very helpful against T mech. Since toss can just hallu a few immortals to be tankfood. I do, however, think mech vs zerg is a little overpowered. Its simply impossible to do anything from the ground, a maxed terran army shouldnt rape a maxed zerg army and only lose like 20 supply. The only real viable way ive found to play against mech is to just expo everywhere and avoid terran until broodlords are out, as engaging him when he is seiged just melts my army to bits with virtually nothing done to his.
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On June 02 2010 20:02 lew wrote:
* Already one mistake in the title: terren (must be terran ofcourse :p).
I see both toss and zerg players complaining about terran tanks being imba. I hope that the admins don't close this thread because this is (in my opinion) an interesting discussion.
My questions for toss and zerg players:
1) Imagine 10 tanks protected with mines and vultures in starcraft 1. Imagine zerg units, all clumped together in 1 control group, attacking the tanks. Will the tanks win easily like they do in sc2? In my opinion: yes.
2) Imagine 10 tanks protected with vultures in starcraft 1. Imagine protoss units, all clumped together in 1 control group, attacking the tanks. Will the tanks win easily like they do in sc2? In my opinion: yes.
Terran players used to go bio, almost always. Zerg and protoss were used to response to this with "1a", which was enough (most of the time). It didn't matter if their units were clumped. Then terran players found out how to do some decent mech-builds. Protoss and zerg players kept on doing their 1a style. They attack with 1 big clumped army, which is a party for terran their sieged tanks (splash).
3) How bad are basedrops (with overlords) as a zerg? Did you ever moved a whole mech army up your ramp as a terran? It takes a lot of time. By the terran is up, you could have killed a lot of stuff. Then you just load everything back in the overlords and you retreat. Expand and repeat.
4) How bad are armydrops as a zerg? I can imagine terrans having a very hard time if a zergs loads his overlords with zerglings and ultra's, and drops it on the siege tanks. Splash will destroy a lot of their own tanks and ultra's will just finnish everything off. Thors are weak vs overlords so those will not be sniped that fast.
5) I never saw a protoss player using hallucinations against me going mech. Let those take the first shots, spread your army, spread your HT's and storm him to dead. Is this viable?
6) Make more use of a mothership. A mothership costs 400/400. An arbiter costs 100/350. Mech is immobile so you can expand a lot as a protoss. Minerals will not be a problem. A mothership can vortex, it cloacks, it attacks. But: I understand it's a little bit weak. Is it not worth the money?
All these things are theory and I want to know if they work (and if they don't: why?) and if they are true/false. I want to ask people to post as much as replays as possible. It would be nice to see terrans posting replays where their mechplay gets destroyed by a zerg or a protoss player.
The main question is: are tanks IMBA, and why? What could be a sollution? Please make sure your post has evidence in it! Be objective.
Sorry for my bad English.
Terran mech is more then fine vs toss if not a bit weak if he plays it right with immortals and stalker blinks to back of base ontop of tanks etc.
Mech vs zerg is only imba when and if you let the terran get to 200/200 of tanks and other mix viks/ravens/thors with atleast 1or2 weapons on air and ground. Then it is imba because he has 10000 turrents to speed his min and rader towers covering everwhere if he is good. But i don't know it was like that in BW to full upgrade meatel was rape and a half. Untill he gets the 200/200 mix tho mech is fine you can hars pick off tanks slow him down stop his expand slow his crawl drops nydus infestor MC blah blah
you get point
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On June 02 2010 22:25 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 22:14 avilo wrote:
to OP: no, it's not.
and to person mentioning what LZ said after playing moman, LZ was spot on.
And too many players right now have "one control group command and conquer syndrome" so that is also making mech very lol strong versus Zerg.
It is the same as SC1. If you suicide into their army, you're going to lose.
Overlord drops, nydus worms, burrowed roaches, mass MASS muta (SC1 ZvT vs mech style was mass hydra/muta), infestor usage...all of these are good versus mech. The people saying that muta's suck seem to be the ones that build 12 and stop producing them entirely.
And I actually think mass banelings have potential with muta and/or mass roaches versus mech.
edit: and oh how I miss the days of brood war where players would actually brainstorm and come up with strategies / solutions to builds and such rather than giving up and saying, "oh that's imba! nerf it blizzard!"
just sighs. those were the good old days. overlord drops are a joke given sensor towers + vikings flying around. burrowed roaches and nydus worms both depend on your opponent not playing properly, as there are very simple 100% solutions to both, and i assume you're joking when you say mass muta. mutas were good vs sc1 mech... because thors didnt exist. i dont see how infestors are gonna do anything to break a siege line. sure theyre helpful in a lot of situations but the real problem is that theres never any way for zerg to kill terran before they get this big invincible army. nothing you've suggested changes that. everyone says that you're not supposed to attack a mech ball, thats true. but if thats true then there has to be other ways to win the game. the combination of sensor towers turrets and vikings, and the fact that thors counter mutas so ridiculously hard, kinda puts an end to any of that. and again, you dont even know how to play terran. dont try to give zergs advice based on what beats you because it doesnt beat good players.
You seem to like whining that overlord drops suck, nydus sucks, and that I suck at Terran? lol?
You play Z, you know infestors are not for breaking a siege line. But fungaling a lot along with everything else may whittle down the first ball.
And no, not joking for mass muta, some T only build 2-3 thors and all tanks/hellions and vikings. Corruptor/muta/broodlord obviously is going to work, I did not mean just muta, but I meant more mutas than normal.
and btw, I do know how to play T, I was one of the first people thor meching like 13 patches ago tyvm
one problem might be that some maps are really small. Obviously incineration zone, and steppes of war might be hard zvt.
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On June 03 2010 01:13 Konsume wrote: doupt TvP is that huge of a problem cause they have immortals that rapes tanks and thors while speedlots and such just killl and blah blah blah..... THEY HAVE A COUNTER.
Ghost EMP completely nullifies immortals.
As a mid-high Platinum (now Diamond) Protoss player I was completely baffled how to stop Terran mech, so I learned Terran to see what other players would do against it. The answer? Nothing much. I roflstomp Protss players just as easily as I got crushed myself. The PvT matchup needs some work.
On paper you can get a flank on the tanks. On paper you can send in immortal to absorb siege tanks. On paper you can out-expand the Terran.
None of this works in the game. Few of the maps actually allow you to get the necessary flank. The addition of Xel'Naga watch towers and Sensor Towers makes this problem 100x worse. The hunkered-up Terran player will always see you coming, and he will be prepared. With the way bio units clump, spotting ghosts is almost impossible in the heat of battle, while your own templar have a giant glowing beacon for the Terran to target.
IMO it comes down to these two three things. My suggested solutions:
(i) Do something about the Sensor Towers. Reduce their cost and their range, and slightly increase their build time. Make the Terran work harder to establish a perimeter, because once it's up, it's impossible to get a decent flank.
(ii) Quit putting Xel'Naga watch towers on every single map.
(iii) When a Protoss player has a templar selected, highlight the units with energy that can be feedbacked. That way they can actually find the ghosts. Give the same bonus for Terran and highlight units with energy that can be EMPed.
(iv) Make Immortals immune to EMP. It is a hardened shield, after all.
I'm not attached terribly to either Protoss or Terran, and from my experience, this would encourage more diverse play than just sieging up and waiting for the Protoss player to suicide eventually.
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On June 03 2010 01:13 Konsume wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 00:52 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
i wont say its perfectly balanced cause i dont know. but i wont agree its a problem yet either.
I doupt TvP is that huge of a problem cause they have immortals that rapes tanks and thors while speedlots and such just killl and blah blah blah..... THEY HAVE A COUNTER. Problem is that zerg have 0 counter since the combination of hellions, tanks and thors will just rape anything you can throw at them. Basicaly what I'm saying is that PvT: Immortals > tank / thor speedlots > tank / thor Blink Stalkers >= sieged tanks ....... TvZ: Thors > Roaches / Hydra / Muta / Corrupter and even Broodlords if supported by hellions Tanks > Roaches (3range anyone?) / hydra (we could almost add ultra) Hellions > zerglins and MOST Tmech will go 2-3 thors + 8-10 tanks and 4-5 hellions.
Thors suck vs corrupters and broodlords hard core. 16 dmg to corrupters and 20 dmg to broodlords and they shoot very very slow. Only way thor is good vs them is if you force ball these units like a noob. As they are they spread out very very well and splash does not even hit broodlords and maybe hits 2 corrupters. Just don't force ball them like a retard.
Also thors get raped by roachs hard not even close to cost effective only thign saving them is the tanks in the back. Thors are there to deal with mutas period everythign else the tanks will rape alot better then a thor.
Ultras need a buff a nitch like the immortal. Make it so that only direct hits can dmg it and when its hit by somthing that splash direct that splash will not hit units around it. Then give it the highest threat value of any target. There you have units late game that can deal with 200/200 mech not effect early game/mid and can deal with colos as well when toss gets them in like groups of 10 : P
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On June 03 2010 01:41 dargul wrote:Thors aren't HARD counter for muta. i might surprise u but 4 mutas will kill 1 thor, 8mutas will kill 2 thors 12 will kill 3 thors etc. 20mutas +2corraptors will kill 5 thors and you will have 7 mutas +2 corraptors left after this if you will simply make 2 groups by 10muta and cor in each and attack from 2 sides(it isn't that hard right? ) I mean that yeh thors counter muta but they can be killed by muta for a reasonable price and all you need for this is a little micro to not make muta stack, just A move and muta will do fine with thors. I rather often win terrans with muta just because the rely on thors too much and don't build marines vikings as antimuta support for thors. I'm 300 plat zerg.
The only problem with this is when they get +2 or +3 attack. If the game goes mid to late game I lose a large percentage of those games so I try to end it asap kind of similiar to how toss used to want to beat zerg with the mid game timing push and if zerg survived they had a large advantage. Like when idra played tlo on lt, I don't think I could ever win a game like that atm. It's really hard but I've seen other people win so I guess I just have to have insane apm and really refine a build order against mech that can still adjust to the thousand other openings terran has. I have more of a problem scouting something too late or not being able to adjust to certain openings like 4 helion preigniter push or delayed helion rine push into viking because I'm so worried about stuff like tank rine pushes, thor drops, and tank helion thor.
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On June 03 2010 01:49 xnub wrote:
Terran mech is more then fine vs toss if not a bit weak if he plays it right with immortals and stalker blinks to back of base ontop of tanks etc.
I see this argument from Terran players everywhere, but it's not really valid. First off, ghost tech is cheap and fast, compared to either Immortal tech or Blink tech, and Ghosts hard counter Immortals (and observers, and sentries, and HTs) when any semi-competent player is using them. EMP hits before feedback, blink, charge, psi storm, force field and upgraded Colossus attacks. This means that a few ghosts can blanket an entire Protoss army in EMPs before it can even start fighting, so Immortals will die in 4 hits from tanks instead of 14, blink stalkers will die in 2 hits from tanks instead of 3, and when they arrive, even Marines will be able to take them out quickly, since they'll have had to walk through tank fire just to be able to use blink. Even then, this may work if the stalkers seriously outnumber the Terran army, but if the Terran techs a little more, they can get a Raven for PDDs, which will nullify any sort of skilled stalker play before the Protoss player can respond.
Basically, what most people consider to be Protoss players 'playing it right' is, in fact, Terran players 'playing it wrong.' The only way you can conceivably beat a highly teched Terran army is to catch it out of position, or to beat the player before they get a decent force.
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I think ones people realize u can set SCVs to auto repair and attack with 2 tanks+5Rines+5scvs and win on their first attack in every match up practically X_X
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On June 03 2010 02:02 SharkSpider wrote: The only way you can conceivably beat a highly teched Terran army is to catch it out of position, or to beat the player before they get a decent force.
And with the abundance of Xel'Naga watch towers and sensor towers, you will never catch a competent Terran out of position  . Those silly watch towers are half the problem IMO -- Terran just siege up outside of them and see everything coming.
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EPT
