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On June 03 2010 00:29 Tidesson wrote:
Now onto serious business, I don't think its imbalanced, it does give terran great map control, but theres a lot of options to bust a siege. From the Protoss point of view, theres a bunch of options. Crabmortals in the front take the first siege shots pretty well, and if you focus fire a couple of crabmortals can eat a bunch of his tanks before going down. Hallucinated zealots are another good option if you're good on sentries. They have decent hp plus they spawn in pairs. The good old zealot bombing still works, even though its extremely rare to not see any anti air in a terran siege, if you see no anti air by all means go zealot bomb. It's the best method hands down, now you can even deploy the warp prism on top of them and warp directly underneath, you dont even need to load the zealots. Another option, make phoenixes and lift all tanks, then proceed with your "a-move" sir. Even if all phoenixes die, your ground units should arrive within range by the time the tanks are dropped back. And if they have viking support the answer is clear: void rays. Charge them up with a pylon or rocks or whatever beforehand and the vikings melt. The mothership too. If its an extreme turtling opponent just recall your units inside his base and nevermind his blockade.
Once a Terran gets a key number of tanks (~15), no ground army works. Immortals will die too quickly, they also have hellions to drain shields, and the splash damage when there are that many tanks will lower the immortal shields far too quickly for damage to be done. Zealot bombing doesn't work at all, they have vikings. Vikings will shoot down your warp prism before it's anywhere close to the siege tanks. Lifting siege tanks with phoenixes can work versus marine/tank/viking because your colossi can quickly clean up the marines and then your army can waltz right next to the tanks. This doesn't work versus hellion/tank/viking because hellions are sturdier and don't melt under colossi fire. You will have time for one volley of lifts before your phoenixes die to vikings, and you won't have done enough damage to the hellions to destroy the tanks. Void rays lose in equal cost numbers of vikings, badly. You can even have fully charged void rays engage vikings and they will still lose. Try some of your ideas out before you suggest them, you complain that others are just crying imba, but you're
just theorycrafting ideas that actual players know do not work.
On June 03 2010 01:13 Konsume wrote:
PvT:
Immortals > tank / thor
speedlots > tank / thor
Blink Stalkers >= sieged tanks
Wrong. That will work when they have few siege tanks (~5), and it's not a problem for a Protoss to keep a Terran in their base until later mid-game, the problem is that when they move out with many siege tanks (~15), nothing works. Immortals, speedlots, blink stalkers all die incredibly fast, you will kill two or three tanks at best. If you don't believe me, try this out yourself. All these people theorycrafting ideas of what would work is ridiculous because they haven't tried it themselves. I have played multiple PvT's with a friend of mine and every possible combination and style of attacking was attempted; nothing showed promise.
On June 02 2010 20:38 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
so imho first we need the people to adapt before we can even see if something is imba. terran was thru the most "style changes" while Ps for example still very often do exactly the same that they did 3 months ago at the start of the beta.you just cant go 2/3 gate robo and aclick vs evry strat and then cry out when it doesnt work anymore.
What does work? Explain what would be a good solution. Terran players are great at saying, "You can't just A-move anymore!", which is fine, except nothing works. I welcome a reply that proves me wrong.
On June 02 2010 21:09 Keyser wrote:
This is what seperates good players from bad ones. Bad players encounter a strategy that seems tough and then come here to whine about how overpowered it is, while good players find a way around it. It has always been that way and it will always be that way. It's the failure to take the game for what it is and trying to win, and instead trying to make Blizzard ease it up for you. All these comparisons and the theorycrafting is just rationalizing. Get out there and play more games, find and way to win and quit the whining. Yes, your whining may possibly help Blizzard, but trust me when I tell you that you're never going to get anywhere as a player when you resort to whining rather than trying..
And after your extensive testing as yielded no actual results? I have tried every composition possible, and I have tried in multiple games to play in different styles, early harass, try to keep their tank numbers low, etc. After losing 15-0 to a friend of mine where we tried multiple solutions and nothing worked remotely well, that's when I come on the forums to talk about how there seemingly is no solution.
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On June 03 2010 02:02 SharkSpider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 01:49 xnub wrote:
Terran mech is more then fine vs toss if not a bit weak if he plays it right with immortals and stalker blinks to back of base ontop of tanks etc. I see this argument from Terran players everywhere, but it's not really valid. First off, ghost tech is cheap and fast, compared to either Immortal tech or Blink tech, and Ghosts hard counter Immortals (and observers, and sentries, and HTs) when any semi-competent player is using them. EMP hits before feedback, blink, charge, psi storm, force field and upgraded Colossus attacks. This means that a few ghosts can blanket an entire Protoss army in EMPs before it can even start fighting, so Immortals will die in 4 hits from tanks instead of 14, blink stalkers will die in 2 hits from tanks instead of 3, and when they arrive, even Marines will be able to take them out quickly, since they'll have had to walk through tank fire just to be able to use blink. Even then, this may work if the stalkers seriously outnumber the Terran army, but if the Terran techs a little more, they can get a Raven for PDDs, which will nullify any sort of skilled stalker play before the Protoss player can respond. Basically, what most people consider to be Protoss players 'playing it right' is, in fact, Terran players 'playing it wrong.' The only way you can conceivably beat a highly teched Terran army is to catch it out of position, or to beat the player before they get a decent force.
Does not matter much if the stalkers blink right ontop of the tanks then its GG and he is going tanks and ghost from the start he has very very low #'s of tanks/ghost and you can break it easy. Also stalker blinking into sides of base and avoid the tank line is super easy and fast.
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This is literally the most pathetic thread I've ever read. You simply can not unify your irrational ranting with Terran's success rate in tournaments. Saying "Terran is overpowered, the only reason they haven't been winning is because the players suck" is the worst straw man argument I've ever heard.
Set up the best Z players vs the best T players, see who wins more games.
EDIT: oh and if you're a PROTOSS player whining about terran, you're incompetent. No offense.
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On June 03 2010 02:13 HalfAmazing wrote:
This is literally the most pathetic thread I've ever read. You simply can not unify your irrational ranting with Terran's success rate in tournaments. Saying "Terran is overpowered, the only reason they haven't been winning is because the players suck" is the worst straw man argument I've ever heard.
Set up the best Z players vs the best T players, see who wins more games.
EDIT: oh and if you're a PROTOSS player whining about terran, you're incompetent. No offense.
Terran mech vs zerg is op.
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On June 03 2010 02:13 HalfAmazing wrote:
This is literally the most pathetic thread I've ever read. You simply can not unify your irrational ranting with Terran's success rate in tournaments. Saying "Terran is overpowered, the only reason they haven't been winning is because the players suck" is the worst straw man argument I've ever heard.
Set up the best Z players vs the best T players, see who wins more games.
Explain why it's irrational with out using the argument that Terrans haven't dominated tournaments. Explain why the people posting here are wrong, post what the solution is.
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I've tried blinking on top of tanks. The result was that all the stalkers selected for a blink clump in the same spot and get instakilled. You can split them up, but the results are similar--you just can't kill enough before all your stalkers die to splash. You might be able to warp single stalkers next to single talks to kill them with their own splash damage, but it's a ton of effort and stalkers aren't much cheaper than tanks.
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Protoss doesn't really have much of a problem with a Terran mech build because there are so many counters to tanks and Thors. Anything from upgraded charge zealots to immortals to even void rays. A mostly mechanical Terran build is easily countered. Immortals hurt tanks early, Void Rays give vision for cliff tanks, while hitting them hard as well. Out in the open, charge zealots are pretty effective at cutting down tanks, especially if there's no biological units to back them up. Went stalker heavy ? Blink into the tanks. Obviously this doesn't work very well with tons of tanks OR with tanks that have backup, but lone tanks are doomed.
Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 01:13 Konsume wrote:
PvT:
Immortals > tank / thor
speedlots > tank / thor
Blink Stalkers >= sieged tanks Wrong. That will work when they have few siege tanks (~5), and it's not a problem for a Protoss to keep a Terran in their base until later mid-game, the problem is that when they move out with many siege tanks (~15), nothing works. Immortals, speedlots, blink stalkers all die incredibly fast, you will kill two or three tanks at best. If you don't believe me, try this out yourself. All these people theorycrafting ideas of what would work is ridiculous because they haven't tried it themselves. I have played multiple PvT's with a friend of mine and every possible combination and style of attacking was attempted; nothing showed promise.]
If that's the problem, then ... What you're doing wrong is letting your opponent get fifteen tanks. Don't let him outmacro you; put the pressure on him constantly.Don't ever let your opponent be walking around with fifteen tanks.
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I love how T's are clinging to their race with such a furry that if it gets brought down a peg or two, they will just die. Are there some things that need tweeking? Yes of course. Is the game in beta? Yes it is. So stop re-assuring yourself that you are good, when it could be a little bit more on the units you mass. Also you could just be playing mentally challenged people who don't know how to counter such things. All and all happy gaming.
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as a Zerg player i think i always lose unless i go muta, if i go ground i cant win versus mech or MnM, Marauders rape all zerg units unless you have fungal and a big army of hidra ling, but then they start to pump tanks or hellions and its just too dificult to match the T's ground.
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On June 03 2010 02:15 ThePassingShadow wrote:Immortals hurt tanks early
No... just no. Maybe if they were immune to EMP, but as it is, immortals are the least cost effective unit vs tanks.
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ThePassingShadow: You didn't read his full post apparantly.
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On June 03 2010 02:19 NeonGenesis wrote:
You didn't read his full post apparantly.
[nevermind] You were referring to someone else.
I might as well remind everyone of sensor towers again. The range on those is such that you can never reasonably catch a Terran out of position. They will always see you coming, and you can never get the flank that works so well on paper.
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nerf shuttle HP, no defilers => no zea-bombs and no plaguuuuu
did you even think before making a whole thread for this?
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On June 03 2010 02:15 ThePassingShadow wrote:
Protoss doesn't really have much of a problem with a Terran mech build because there are so many counters to tanks and Thors. Anything from upgraded charge zealots to immortals to even void rays. A mostly mechanical Terran build is easily countered. Immortals hurt tanks early, Void Rays give vision for cliff tanks, while hitting them hard as well. Out in the open, charge zealots are pretty effective at cutting down tanks, especially if there's no biological units to back them up. Went stalker heavy ? Blink into the tanks. Obviously this doesn't work very well with tons of tanks OR with tanks that have backup, but lone tanks are doomed.
If that's the problem, then ... What you're doing wrong is letting your opponent get fifteen tanks. Don't let him outmacro you; put the pressure on him constantly.Don't ever let your opponent be walking around with fifteen tanks.
Clearly you are simply theorycrafting, none of this works in a regular game. The strategy of not letting you opponent get ~15 tanks has been tried, and the best way to do this is to simply rush and win the game. Other than that, you cannot effectively keep their tank numbers low when they are content to turtle with their natural and mass up.
It's not a case of being outmacroed, it's a case of the Terran producing units, which when built up enough, cannot be stopped. It's not like the Terran is mass expanding with 5 siege tanks, and I'm just too much of a dope to attack, they stay in their base. Besides attacking right in to their choke (which can also work, but then the problem becomes, if they go tank, you have to win right away), you cannot effectively limit their tank numbers. Try some of your own ideas out before you post them, because the idea that, "Zealots own tanks, immortals own tanks, blink stalkers own tanks; how can Protoss players complain?" is getting really annoying to read when the people have no idea what they are talking about.
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first of all i can't believe some ppl saying terrans win only because they use imba units and strats and don't have any skill otherwise! wtf is that
also im sure top terrans agree that mech is really strong (vs z) and wouldn't mind if blizz nerfed smth, we would just get on with it and tweak the builds again
oh and mech vs P is crap on most of the maps (its ok on LT i think) because P can either rush or just build up zealots ht immortals void rays and own.
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On June 02 2010 20:07 Umpteen wrote:
From what I've read, the biggest difference is that tanks no longer overkill, so:
a) it's harder (impossible?) to exploit the slow seiged firing rate. Send in a zergling and only one tank will fire.
b) Spreading units out is less effective, because tanks will auto-target a broad spread of units instead of the closest.
I never played BW competitively, so if I'm wrong about this, I apologise.
EDIT: typo.
I think the no over kill, might be the biggest culprit of the imba mech play.
this no over kill reduces the effectiveness of running a unit in, or zealot bombs or anything else that was effective in sc2, this is one of the biggest buffs to the unit from sc:bw.
Id like to see it removed even for a week or two just to see how it plays out, but i doubt that would happen,
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On June 03 2010 02:32 mistermetal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 20:07 Umpteen wrote:
From what I've read, the biggest difference is that tanks no longer overkill, so:
a) it's harder (impossible?) to exploit the slow seiged firing rate. Send in a zergling and only one tank will fire.
b) Spreading units out is less effective, because tanks will auto-target a broad spread of units instead of the closest.
I never played BW competitively, so if I'm wrong about this, I apologise.
EDIT: typo. I think the no over kill, might be the biggest culprit of the imba mech play. this no over kill reduces the effectiveness of running a unit in, or zealot bombs or anything else that was effective in sc2, this is one of the biggest buffs to the unit from sc:bw. Id like to see it removed even for a week or two just to see how it plays out, but i doubt that would happen,
Yes, that could be a good test.
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On June 02 2010 20:02 lew wrote:
1) Imagine 10 tanks protected with mines and vultures in starcraft 1. Imagine zerg units, all clumped together in 1 control group, attacking the tanks. Will the tanks win easily like they do in sc2? In my opinion: yes.
From my experience in BW, zerg units even if they are not clumped and are microed will still get slaughtered by that army. The only way zerg could beat tanks in sc1 was with mutas until they got air defense, and then the only way was pretty much dark swarm. Likewise, in sc2, early/mid game you can fight tanks with micro or mutas, but then late game Zerg will have nothing to actually fight the terran army with except Brood Lords and hope that Terran doesnt have vikings along with their 5 million tanks + other units. And no hydras cant counter the vikings because vikings outrange hydras so they can attack Brood Lords without hydras hitting them. And if you bring the hydras closer to the vikings, the tanks will kill all of them.
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Platinum protoss player here.
Tanks have become more of a tier 3 unit, where they were a tier 2 unit in SC1. More often than not, I will have zealot charge, stalker blink, or a bunch of immortals to help me with the tanks.
I have yet to see a successful tank-heavy build like people would do in BW.
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IMO, T v P is well balanced.
T >> Z on most maps.
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EPT
