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dogabutila
United States1437 Posts
"all you need are 50 science vessels and tanks when you had only been building MM" Anybody notice they increased speed cost for overlords? Cause I know you arnt proposing to slowdrop ultras and such on top of tanks. If slow for maruder can be 50/50 which is much more powerful then overlord speed.....why is it cheaper? | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On June 03 2010 03:30 HalfAmazing wrote: Another thing to point out, is that in many of these games that are being used as examples of mech being overpowered (i.e. Sheth vs QXC) there's essentially a stalemate situation where neither terran nor zerg can attack the other, without losing their entire army. The Sheth vs QXC game on steppes of war for example, Sheth throws giant wads of zerg blob at QXC's tanks, loses them, and QXC is STILL not in a position to attack, because zerg can rebuild a large enough army very quickly due to saved up resources. Clearly over time terran gains a massive advantage when zerg does this, as he simply has more resources unspent at the end of the game. If at any time QXC decided to unsiege all of his tanks and engage zerg, with both having a 200/200 army, zerg would win convincingly as he'd flank the shit out of him and keep a maxed out army due to superior production mechanics. So Terran can't lose if they don't do anything and that makes it balanced? I'm not really sure I follow your line of thought on this one. What does it matter if QXC can't move out if he's going to win by sitting back and progressively building more forces and upgrades. Don't forget that siege tanks scale much much better than enemy armor (+5 dmg/upgrade). Armor upgrades only mitigate 20% of the effect of a siege tank's weapon upgrade. This might actually be part of the problem to be honest. Not only do tanks hit a critical mass, but 3/3 tanks vs 3/3 enemy units fair better than 0/0 tanks vs 0/0 units. 2 0/0 tanks leave a 0/0 roach with 27hp. 2 3/3 tanks leave a 3/3 roach with 3hp. For that matter Thors also scale well vs ground in comparison to armor upgrades (armor upgrades offer 33% mitigation of the extra ground damage). | ||
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
That's not how mass recall works. The second you hit mass recall, all your units targeted disappear, but it's not for two seconds later that they appear under the mothership. So it's possible for your units to be in limbo, where they are being recalled to the mothership, and they are no where on the map. What happens if the mothership dies while your units are still in that teleporting limbo? They will still appear where the mothership was, meaning that you can cast a mass recall just as your mothership is about to die and the units will warp in. I tried recalling immortals, stalkers, and zealots, as well as immortals, colossi, stalkers, and zealots. The first composition did a lot of damage, killing most of my opponents army, the second composition beat the entirety of the Terran army and a few immortals were left over. The actual testing was done with either:
There are a couple flaws from what I could see. Firstly, a ghost EMP would render this useless. Secondly, later on when the Terran has more vikings, the mothership wouldn't be able to survive as long before it has to use it's recall. In tested situations where I had to recall earlier than ideally expected, there was still significant damage done to the Terran, where they had about 20% of their army leftover. The ghost EMP and mass vikings at first would make me think this strategy couldn't work, but I don't know how many Terrans would have a ghost, or would be able to use their ghost quickly enough, but the mothership moves at a decent speed for a mass recall when you allow it to accelerate to it's maximum movement. Secondly, as long as you wait until the Terran isn't near a Xel'Naga watch tower, they would have to react near instantly to your mothership to catch it in an EMP. Actual in game testing will reveal whether or not that's going to happen often, but at that stage in the game, although losing a mothership sucks, it wouldn't be game-ending as you can simply chronoboost out another, and because the Terran turtled, you should have the economic advantage. | ||
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Leonfrost
United States4 Posts
As Zerg, I feel able to consistently beat this using mass muta into broodlord, though that is considerably hard to get to if the Terran decides to run a few hellions into the worker line every few minutes and roast up some drones. Usually queen/speedlings can hold this off, though. Also, as has been said already, spreading about 10-15 mutas allows you to kill at least 2-3 thors fairly easily. From the Terran side of things, the most annoying thing players do to me is some sort of roach rush before I have enough tanks to deal with it. Hell, even a 6 pool can win fairly easily on a bad day/small map. Although, a build crafted by a friend of mine (13 fortress rofl) shuts that down fairly well, and leaves me free to mech up and expand without fear of anything on the ground. Also, I can usually have a handful of turrets and a thor up before the inevitable mutas arrive. However, the Zerg just takes the whole map and (if I'm too passive) overruns me with broodlords/mutas eventually. Usually I end it before that happens, though, but I'm relatively sure that's due in part to the Zerg losing their early army in their failed push against the Planetary Fortress, not just because of racial imbalance. Just my 2 cents. Edit: Wow! Like five new posts came up as I was writing this xD | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
On June 03 2010 02:22 Salv wrote: The strategy of not letting you opponent get ~15 colossus has been tried, and the best way to do this is to simply rush and win the game. On June 03 2010 02:22 Salv wrote: It's not a case of being outmacroed, it's a case of the Protoss producing units, which when built up enough, cannot be stopped. On June 03 2010 03:03 ThePassingShadow wrote: How much do fiftten [let's make it ten to make it a bit more realistic] colossus cost ? 300/200 x 10 = 3000/2000 If you're not putting enough pressure on your opponent to stop them from getting ten colossus from one base, then they could have won by other means even earlier. [...] You want to put the pressure on them really early before they can get a lot of colossus. I play Protoss against Terran every single day in Diamond League and against high-level Diamond League friends and the best way to deal with colossus is to prevent them from reaching critical mass. On June 03 2010 03:03 ThePassingShadow wrote:There are tons of and tons of PvT replays out there where the Terran player comes out on top. Check them out, like I have and others have. Early pressure with marines and marauders can prevent early colossus; Box your opponent in; if he cannot expand, he has no hope of making TEN colossus. Susbtituting the word "colossus" by "tanks" and "protoss" by "terran", and you'll get the original post. Just to say, how similar the two situations are, and of course, some protoss units were nerfed, and for good reason, and now the same reasoning should be applied to terran, since so far they've been farily immune to nerfing, though in my opinion needing it, or giving the other races better means to counter mech. Also, it seems a lot of the advice given here, is like a lion giving advice to a deer on how to escape death. First it was the protoss, now it's terran, though probably not to the same extent. | ||
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
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The_Piper42
United States426 Posts
I think it can be done. It's virtually the same problem Zerg had to deal with in SC:BW. | ||
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guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
On June 03 2010 03:51 The_Piper42 wrote: IdrA just destroyed TheLittleOne on Lost Temple when TLO went mech in the TL Altitude Invitational. He expanded like crazy, did a drop into the Terran main, and dealt with Thors using Broodlords (which were in turn protected from Vikings by Infestor Fungal Growths and Corruptors). I think it can be done. It's virtually the same problem Zerg had to deal with in SC:BW. In broodwar zerg had dark swarm though. For the rest of the non elite diamond players like myself I think we have an impossible time beating terran after they get a secured third. I stay in the game but in reality it's already gg because I have no way to beat upgraded mech even if I'm on 4-5 bases to their 3. It doesn't help when almost half your food count is going to drones and then the rest of your army is laughable and there's just not enough stuff you can get. As long as I end the game before they get their expo saturated I'm ok. I'm not so sure how good for the game that is but I guess the same thing is true pvt. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On June 03 2010 03:29 Konsume wrote: Hey Lz, could you count for me "how much hits it took from that thor to kill the WHOLE expansion? and also count in seconds how much time it took to kill that expansion?" + Show Spoiler + Took 28secs for a SINGLE thor to kill a WHOLE expansion With 22 hits (well 44 if you concider each attack 2 hits) 28 SECONDS!!! and it was only 6min40 in the game!!! if we get the same numbers of hit and time to kill the expansion, I would like you to look me right into my eyes and say that Tmech isn't overpowered ESPECIALY thors with mobility provided by the medivacs well an ultralisk takes 17 hits to kill a CC. | ||
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
On June 03 2010 03:37 dogabutila wrote: Anybody notice they increased speed cost for overlords? Cause I know you arnt proposing to slowdrop ultras and such on top of tanks. If slow for maruder can be 50/50 which is much more powerful then overlord speed.....why is it cheaper? you cant see it that way. look at warpgate tech it costs 50/50 and is pretty much the strongest tech/researchable thing in the whole game. still its fine. | ||
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shiftY803
200 Posts
TLO threw away that title by trying silly cheese builds a time or two rather than sticking with something solid. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
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scph
Korea (South)262 Posts
If one unit in the matchup proves to be great, there will be a way to poke at its weaknesses, unless you can mass a full bio ball and a full mech ball in one game sitting aka do the impossible. The only minor issue for the tank that I feel should be addressed (assuming it will not cause a major change) is the already mentioned overkill trait from BW that no longer exists in SC2. Tank control seems too intelligent (noob friendly) and more difficult to micro against as they don't overkill if you send in scapegoat units, which leaves the only real option to bomb drops on tanks. | ||
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xnub
Canada610 Posts
On June 03 2010 02:02 guitarizt wrote: The only problem with this is when they get +2 or +3 attack. If the game goes mid to late game I lose a large percentage of those games so I try to end it asap kind of similiar to how toss used to want to beat zerg with the mid game timing push and if zerg survived they had a large advantage. Like when idra played tlo on lt, I don't think I could ever win a game like that atm. It's really hard but I've seen other people win so I guess I just have to have insane apm and really refine a build order against mech that can still adjust to the thousand other openings terran has. I have more of a problem scouting something too late or not being able to adjust to certain openings like 4 helion preigniter push or delayed helion rine push into viking because I'm so worried about stuff like tank rine pushes, thor drops, and tank helion thor. So he is getting upgrades and you are not ? umm get upgrades ? Thors still suck vs them anything armored they tend to do shitty shitty dmg | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
I believe a speedling could run by a tank firing it and still live in SC1? I feel like tanks are also a lot more effective vs speedlings in SC2 because they all run next to each other and all get hit and die. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On June 03 2010 03:04 Lz wrote: try and break a maxed tank gol vult vessel army in scbw with hydra ling ultra or any unit combo you want and its going to fail~ straight up.. maxed Mech army has allways > zerg in scbw or sc2.. nothing new.. thats why zergs have to use there brain.. sadly they would rather QQ then actually nydas worm , drop or over expand at first sight of mech. this | ||
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Darkren
Canada1841 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On June 03 2010 04:11 FabledIntegral wrote: Tanks also do full dmg to everything. A hydra won't take half dmg vs siege tank fire like it would in SC1, it takes full dmg. Tanks didn't do half damage to hydras anyway. Explosive damage = 75% damage to medium units, which means that it takes 2 hits to kill a hydra regardless of which game you're in. On June 03 2010 04:11 FabledIntegral wrote: I believe a speedling could run by a tank firing it and still live in SC1? I feel like tanks are also a lot more effective vs speedlings in SC2 because they all run next to each other and all get hit and die. Only if the speedling has 1 armor upgrade and the tank has none. And just because micro is harder makes it an imbalance issue? If that were the case, then explain how Protoss mechanics in SC1 are less demanding than the other races, but in high-level play the races are balanced. | ||
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junemermaid
United States981 Posts
On June 02 2010 20:36 whatthemate wrote: no its just that zerg players complain. just watch some of the gomtv protosses, they humiliate terran with a build that goes like this: 1.heavy stalker opening with quarter zealot mix +1-2 sentries. 2. as time passes by army becomes more zealot heavy. 3.tricks terran into overproducing factory units. 3. charge is upgraded and zealot + forcefields buy a lot of time. brute force with a ton of gateway. inefficient but you can brute force it with stronger economy. 4.1-2 stargates you win > mass void ray. zerg just attack move too much. they play too much simcity and allow terran to critical mass tanks that's all. all the zerg players are playing them the wrong way. zerg are meant to make great use of mind games by burrowing and fighting only when they can win. most zerg players just attempt to cancel out with brute force and watch the battles go to see if their army can win the fight. that's why against terran always burrow if you cannot win the fight. zerg players need to have the mindset to force terran to get a goddamn useless raven to detect. hydras are only meant to comprise no more than 20% of your army, most of it should be a mix of roaches mutas and zerglings. This post is correct, especially with the increased regen rate from tunneling claws now. If you let the terran move out of his base on the ground without a raven after you get lair tech, you're playing the game wrong. Burrowed banelings + roaches force terran to either move around with medivacs, harass with vikings, or get a raven. use this to your advantage. Raven is a huge investment, slows down pushes, and makes your army vulnerable if it dies. I wasn't having problems with 1800 rated platinum terrans last patch when I switched to zerg (from protoss). As long as you don't crash your units into siege tank lines, mech is not unbeatable. Yeah, its difficult to play against, but you need to play smart! | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On June 03 2010 04:17 TheYango wrote: Tanks didn't do half damage to hydras anyway. Explosive damage = 75% damage to medium units, which means that it takes 2 hits to kill a hydra regardless of which game you're in. Only if the speedling has 1 armor upgrade and the tank has none. And just because micro is harder makes it an imbalance issue? If that were the case, then explain how Protoss mechanics in SC1 are less demanding than the other races, but in high-level play the races are balanced. Oh whatever. It's still the difference in damage that I'm talking about. And I never said it made it an imbalance issue, that's completely irrelevant. Although please please plesae enlighten me how you can possibly send zergling towards the enemy in SC2 save controlling them literally individually without them running right next to each other, which wouldn't happen as much in SC2. If tanks are more efficient in SC2 than SC1 at killing, are you possibly going to tell me that doesn't make tanks better? | ||
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