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The person using mech may be inmobile but still "mobile-able" where as your stuck in your base because he has sieged up half the map.
Way to go about mobility -.-
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I lost a game against TvP when protos just massed stalker and templars. Ridicilous masses...
We both turtled until we both were at 200/200.
I wanted to try BC one game so I had saved to 15 BC and around 20 tanks. The rest were vikings, workers, mm, ghots... I was fully upgraded on the air, dont know how it was with the ground.
and....
He just crushed me.
Blinking stalkers in the base in such numbers the tanks had no chance. BC also melted to stalkers and templars.
The way I could have won would probably be with ghosts using emp better. But my comp is to old it just freezes when large battles are taking place. Not unusual with 3-5 seconds of total freeze makes it impossible to cast spells in battle.
Just a remark into the discussion. I have won many games with tech too. Before patch I were top 10 platinum.
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On June 03 2010 01:58 avilo wrote:
one problem might be that some maps are really small. Obviously incineration zone, and steppes of war might be hard zvt.
I'm not even a zerg player but I loled
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On June 02 2010 23:07 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 22:47 Keyser wrote:On June 02 2010 22:25 IdrA wrote:On June 02 2010 22:14 avilo wrote:
to OP: no, it's not.
and to person mentioning what LZ said after playing moman, LZ was spot on.
And too many players right now have "one control group command and conquer syndrome" so that is also making mech very lol strong versus Zerg.
It is the same as SC1. If you suicide into their army, you're going to lose.
Overlord drops, nydus worms, burrowed roaches, mass MASS muta (SC1 ZvT vs mech style was mass hydra/muta), infestor usage...all of these are good versus mech. The people saying that muta's suck seem to be the ones that build 12 and stop producing them entirely.
And I actually think mass banelings have potential with muta and/or mass roaches versus mech.
edit: and oh how I miss the days of brood war where players would actually brainstorm and come up with strategies / solutions to builds and such rather than giving up and saying, "oh that's imba! nerf it blizzard!"
just sighs. those were the good old days. overlord drops are a joke given sensor towers + vikings flying around. burrowed roaches and nydus worms both depend on your opponent not playing properly, as there are very simple 100% solutions to both, and i assume you're joking when you say mass muta. mutas were good vs sc1 mech... because thors didnt exist. i dont see how infestors are gonna do anything to break a siege line. sure theyre helpful in a lot of situations but the real problem is that theres never any way for zerg to kill terran before they get this big invincible army. nothing you've suggested changes that. everyone says that you're not supposed to attack a mech ball, thats true. but if thats true then there has to be other ways to win the game. the combination of sensor towers turrets and vikings, and the fact that thors counter mutas so ridiculously hard, kinda puts an end to any of that. and again, you dont even know how to play terran. dont try to give zergs advice based on what beats you because it doesnt beat good players. I guess by "never" what you are really trying to say is "in your games" since your play is often exceptionally uncreative. Cool didn't seem to have these problems vs Maka during the World Cup. The way I see it, people are way too quick to point out the counters to something that could be done. Both burrowed roaches and nydus worm was used to great effect in recent tournaments, by players who are a step above you at the moment, so obviously just because counters exist, the best players find ways and no one has an impenetrable defense. Infestors even broke a siege line in the semi finals by mind controlling tanks/thors up a cliff with an overlord scout. Basically the ways are there, but Zerg needs to be a bit more creative. On the bright side, destroying a mech ball is generally much more of a gain than destroying Zerg units. I think people, including some top players, are too quick to look for a solution that will solve the problem every time rather than consider all the options(nydus, infestors, burrowed roaches, overlord drops, mineral line harass w/lings/banes/mutas, traps etc) and find one that will suit that particular game and situation. You can find counters to all of them all day long on a forum, but in my experience from playing and watching top games there always tends to be at least one solution for every game, and all the options above are used regularly. Honestly, you're a good player, but you're never going to be among the very best if you don't quit the pessimistic "they'll just do x"-attitude and start believing you can find a way every game. maka didnt play mech, he used bio+2 fac tank which has significantly more weaknesses. he also played aggressively, while what we're talking about is pure defensive mech with viking support which is far stronger. there are very few good terrans on the asian server and ensnare is the only top one who plays pure mech regularly, but if you look at some of the sen vs tlo and check vs rainbow games it shows you how ridiculously strong mech is. ya the zergs won the series, but really those zergs shouldnt even be losing games to those terrans. infestor mc range is 3 or 4 shorter than tank range, as i said infestors are useful in alot of situations and should be made, but they are not a solution to turtle mech. i dunno what game you're talking about but infestors are not gonna let you break a tank line that you couldntve anyway. burrowed roaches are not something that you can just use to take advantage of a situation, you have to get 2 expensive slow upgrades well before hand. its a significant investment that really just isnt worth it given how easy to prevent it is, and how valuable gas is. nyduses and overlord drops are something that you can use to take advantage of vulnerabilities, but given how easy it is to prevent both of them they are not a solution to mech. they win you a game here and there, but depending on your opponent making significant, basic mistakes is not a good way to approach the game. you talk about taking advantage of weaknesses and particular situations, you dont realize just how easy it is for terran to eliminate those weaknesses, not allow those situations to happen because of sensor towers + the ridiculous efficiency of their units. when terran can see every drop coming from halfway across the map, hold attacks with a handful of units that cost a quarter as much, absolutely hard counter most of zerg's unit choices. you're making the assumption that terran has to play perfectly to be invulnerable, and thats just not the case. of course terrans have lost games, but this mech play is relatively new and very unrefined, and most top players, including all of the best terrans on the us server + morrow will tell still you that its overpowered already. you get a competent player using it and they would literally never lose to zerg on most of the current maps.
Good that they made it one less upgrade for the roaches the latest patch then. Maybe we will see more play with them when they dont need "2 expensive slow upgrades" anymore.
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On June 03 2010 04:29 rtano wrote:
I lost a game against TvP when protos just massed stalker and templars. Ridicilous masses...
We both turtled until we both were at 200/200.
I wanted to try BC one game so I had saved to 15 BC and around 20 tanks. The rest were vikings, workers, mm, ghots... I was fully upgraded on the air, dont know how it was with the ground.
and....
He just crushed me.
Blinking stalkers in the base in such numbers the tanks had no chance. BC also melted to stalkers and templars.
The way I could have won would probably be with ghosts using emp better. But my comp is to old it just freezes when large battles are taking place. Not unusual with 3-5 seconds of total freeze makes it impossible to cast spells in battle.
Just a remark into the discussion. I have won many games with tech too. Before patch I were top 10 platinum.
I don't know how, BC's literally eat stalkers alive, stalkers are a horrible counter to BC's...
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Here is how I think zergs feel!
+ Show Spoiler +
just a small picture explaining everything 
hehe
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United States1167 Posts
On June 03 2010 04:49 rtano wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 23:07 IdrA wrote:On June 02 2010 22:47 Keyser wrote:On June 02 2010 22:25 IdrA wrote:On June 02 2010 22:14 avilo wrote:
to OP: no, it's not.
and to person mentioning what LZ said after playing moman, LZ was spot on.
And too many players right now have "one control group command and conquer syndrome" so that is also making mech very lol strong versus Zerg.
It is the same as SC1. If you suicide into their army, you're going to lose.
Overlord drops, nydus worms, burrowed roaches, mass MASS muta (SC1 ZvT vs mech style was mass hydra/muta), infestor usage...all of these are good versus mech. The people saying that muta's suck seem to be the ones that build 12 and stop producing them entirely.
And I actually think mass banelings have potential with muta and/or mass roaches versus mech.
edit: and oh how I miss the days of brood war where players would actually brainstorm and come up with strategies / solutions to builds and such rather than giving up and saying, "oh that's imba! nerf it blizzard!"
just sighs. those were the good old days. overlord drops are a joke given sensor towers + vikings flying around. burrowed roaches and nydus worms both depend on your opponent not playing properly, as there are very simple 100% solutions to both, and i assume you're joking when you say mass muta. mutas were good vs sc1 mech... because thors didnt exist. i dont see how infestors are gonna do anything to break a siege line. sure theyre helpful in a lot of situations but the real problem is that theres never any way for zerg to kill terran before they get this big invincible army. nothing you've suggested changes that. everyone says that you're not supposed to attack a mech ball, thats true. but if thats true then there has to be other ways to win the game. the combination of sensor towers turrets and vikings, and the fact that thors counter mutas so ridiculously hard, kinda puts an end to any of that. and again, you dont even know how to play terran. dont try to give zergs advice based on what beats you because it doesnt beat good players. I guess by "never" what you are really trying to say is "in your games" since your play is often exceptionally uncreative. Cool didn't seem to have these problems vs Maka during the World Cup. The way I see it, people are way too quick to point out the counters to something that could be done. Both burrowed roaches and nydus worm was used to great effect in recent tournaments, by players who are a step above you at the moment, so obviously just because counters exist, the best players find ways and no one has an impenetrable defense. Infestors even broke a siege line in the semi finals by mind controlling tanks/thors up a cliff with an overlord scout. Basically the ways are there, but Zerg needs to be a bit more creative. On the bright side, destroying a mech ball is generally much more of a gain than destroying Zerg units. I think people, including some top players, are too quick to look for a solution that will solve the problem every time rather than consider all the options(nydus, infestors, burrowed roaches, overlord drops, mineral line harass w/lings/banes/mutas, traps etc) and find one that will suit that particular game and situation. You can find counters to all of them all day long on a forum, but in my experience from playing and watching top games there always tends to be at least one solution for every game, and all the options above are used regularly. Honestly, you're a good player, but you're never going to be among the very best if you don't quit the pessimistic "they'll just do x"-attitude and start believing you can find a way every game. maka didnt play mech, he used bio+2 fac tank which has significantly more weaknesses. he also played aggressively, while what we're talking about is pure defensive mech with viking support which is far stronger. there are very few good terrans on the asian server and ensnare is the only top one who plays pure mech regularly, but if you look at some of the sen vs tlo and check vs rainbow games it shows you how ridiculously strong mech is. ya the zergs won the series, but really those zergs shouldnt even be losing games to those terrans. infestor mc range is 3 or 4 shorter than tank range, as i said infestors are useful in alot of situations and should be made, but they are not a solution to turtle mech. i dunno what game you're talking about but infestors are not gonna let you break a tank line that you couldntve anyway. burrowed roaches are not something that you can just use to take advantage of a situation, you have to get 2 expensive slow upgrades well before hand. its a significant investment that really just isnt worth it given how easy to prevent it is, and how valuable gas is. nyduses and overlord drops are something that you can use to take advantage of vulnerabilities, but given how easy it is to prevent both of them they are not a solution to mech. they win you a game here and there, but depending on your opponent making significant, basic mistakes is not a good way to approach the game. you talk about taking advantage of weaknesses and particular situations, you dont realize just how easy it is for terran to eliminate those weaknesses, not allow those situations to happen because of sensor towers + the ridiculous efficiency of their units. when terran can see every drop coming from halfway across the map, hold attacks with a handful of units that cost a quarter as much, absolutely hard counter most of zerg's unit choices. you're making the assumption that terran has to play perfectly to be invulnerable, and thats just not the case. of course terrans have lost games, but this mech play is relatively new and very unrefined, and most top players, including all of the best terrans on the us server + morrow will tell still you that its overpowered already. you get a competent player using it and they would literally never lose to zerg on most of the current maps. Good that they made it one less upgrade for the roaches the latest patch then. Maybe we will see more play with them when they dont need "2 expensive slow upgrades" anymore.
He was talking about burrow + movement underground. You still need to get those 2 expensive slow upgrades.
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On June 03 2010 04:49 rtano wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 23:07 IdrA wrote:On June 02 2010 22:47 Keyser wrote:On June 02 2010 22:25 IdrA wrote:On June 02 2010 22:14 avilo wrote:
to OP: no, it's not.
and to person mentioning what LZ said after playing moman, LZ was spot on.
And too many players right now have "one control group command and conquer syndrome" so that is also making mech very lol strong versus Zerg.
It is the same as SC1. If you suicide into their army, you're going to lose.
Overlord drops, nydus worms, burrowed roaches, mass MASS muta (SC1 ZvT vs mech style was mass hydra/muta), infestor usage...all of these are good versus mech. The people saying that muta's suck seem to be the ones that build 12 and stop producing them entirely.
And I actually think mass banelings have potential with muta and/or mass roaches versus mech.
edit: and oh how I miss the days of brood war where players would actually brainstorm and come up with strategies / solutions to builds and such rather than giving up and saying, "oh that's imba! nerf it blizzard!"
just sighs. those were the good old days. overlord drops are a joke given sensor towers + vikings flying around. burrowed roaches and nydus worms both depend on your opponent not playing properly, as there are very simple 100% solutions to both, and i assume you're joking when you say mass muta. mutas were good vs sc1 mech... because thors didnt exist. i dont see how infestors are gonna do anything to break a siege line. sure theyre helpful in a lot of situations but the real problem is that theres never any way for zerg to kill terran before they get this big invincible army. nothing you've suggested changes that. everyone says that you're not supposed to attack a mech ball, thats true. but if thats true then there has to be other ways to win the game. the combination of sensor towers turrets and vikings, and the fact that thors counter mutas so ridiculously hard, kinda puts an end to any of that. and again, you dont even know how to play terran. dont try to give zergs advice based on what beats you because it doesnt beat good players. I guess by "never" what you are really trying to say is "in your games" since your play is often exceptionally uncreative. Cool didn't seem to have these problems vs Maka during the World Cup. The way I see it, people are way too quick to point out the counters to something that could be done. Both burrowed roaches and nydus worm was used to great effect in recent tournaments, by players who are a step above you at the moment, so obviously just because counters exist, the best players find ways and no one has an impenetrable defense. Infestors even broke a siege line in the semi finals by mind controlling tanks/thors up a cliff with an overlord scout. Basically the ways are there, but Zerg needs to be a bit more creative. On the bright side, destroying a mech ball is generally much more of a gain than destroying Zerg units. I think people, including some top players, are too quick to look for a solution that will solve the problem every time rather than consider all the options(nydus, infestors, burrowed roaches, overlord drops, mineral line harass w/lings/banes/mutas, traps etc) and find one that will suit that particular game and situation. You can find counters to all of them all day long on a forum, but in my experience from playing and watching top games there always tends to be at least one solution for every game, and all the options above are used regularly. Honestly, you're a good player, but you're never going to be among the very best if you don't quit the pessimistic "they'll just do x"-attitude and start believing you can find a way every game. maka didnt play mech, he used bio+2 fac tank which has significantly more weaknesses. he also played aggressively, while what we're talking about is pure defensive mech with viking support which is far stronger. there are very few good terrans on the asian server and ensnare is the only top one who plays pure mech regularly, but if you look at some of the sen vs tlo and check vs rainbow games it shows you how ridiculously strong mech is. ya the zergs won the series, but really those zergs shouldnt even be losing games to those terrans. infestor mc range is 3 or 4 shorter than tank range, as i said infestors are useful in alot of situations and should be made, but they are not a solution to turtle mech. i dunno what game you're talking about but infestors are not gonna let you break a tank line that you couldntve anyway. burrowed roaches are not something that you can just use to take advantage of a situation, you have to get 2 expensive slow upgrades well before hand. its a significant investment that really just isnt worth it given how easy to prevent it is, and how valuable gas is. nyduses and overlord drops are something that you can use to take advantage of vulnerabilities, but given how easy it is to prevent both of them they are not a solution to mech. they win you a game here and there, but depending on your opponent making significant, basic mistakes is not a good way to approach the game. you talk about taking advantage of weaknesses and particular situations, you dont realize just how easy it is for terran to eliminate those weaknesses, not allow those situations to happen because of sensor towers + the ridiculous efficiency of their units. when terran can see every drop coming from halfway across the map, hold attacks with a handful of units that cost a quarter as much, absolutely hard counter most of zerg's unit choices. you're making the assumption that terran has to play perfectly to be invulnerable, and thats just not the case. of course terrans have lost games, but this mech play is relatively new and very unrefined, and most top players, including all of the best terrans on the us server + morrow will tell still you that its overpowered already. you get a competent player using it and they would literally never lose to zerg on most of the current maps. Good that they made it one less upgrade for the roaches the latest patch then. Maybe we will see more play with them when they dont need "2 expensive slow upgrades" anymore.
He wasn't talking about Glial and Tunneling. Its burrow and tunneling.
Burrow = 100/100 100 seconds
Tunneling Claws = 150/150 110 seconds
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Just wondering something since I'm nowhere near a top player myself. Through the early stages of beta, I always heard that Tanks were now useless especially being 3 food and more expensive. I think it was Jinro who said he always wanted to go mech, but it wasn't viable. Now though everyone agrees they're at LEAST very strong, if not even imbalanced. The smart firing was there all along, so was it just the "re-centering" of splash damage that suddenly made them so much better?
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On June 03 2010 05:12 numberThirtyOne wrote:
Just wondering something since I'm nowhere near a top player myself. Through the early stages of beta, I always heard that Tanks were now useless especially being 3 food and more expensive. I think it was Jinro who said he always wanted to go mech, but it wasn't viable. Now though everyone agrees they're at LEAST very strong, if not even imbalanced. The smart firing was there all along, so was it just the "re-centering" of splash damage that suddenly made them so much better?
It was the 10hp buff.
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On June 03 2010 05:14 Opinion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 05:12 numberThirtyOne wrote:
Just wondering something since I'm nowhere near a top player myself. Through the early stages of beta, I always heard that Tanks were now useless especially being 3 food and more expensive. I think it was Jinro who said he always wanted to go mech, but it wasn't viable. Now though everyone agrees they're at LEAST very strong, if not even imbalanced. The smart firing was there all along, so was it just the "re-centering" of splash damage that suddenly made them so much better? It was the 10hp buff.
Lol .
Anyways, the roach nerf made a difference for ZvT. Previously against a mass tank army you could spam Roaches to overwhelm them. Tanks still tear through roaches, but tearing through 60 roaches + the rest of the zerg army is significantly harder than doing so vs 30 roaches + rest of the zerg army. Doubly so when the tanks were firing off center. So the Terran couldn't do a turtling strategy and come out alright.
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Agreed, the roach nerf was the main change. A 200/200 army was so much more powerful prenerf, not to mention that you could replenish very quickly even as the battle was progressing using stored-up larva.
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Sorry if this has already been mentioned... but as a protoss player I get hallucinate for scouting purposes anyway. Against terran mech I use it to hallucinate immortals (which still have hardened shields just like normal immortals) to take the initial tank shots (or even get the terran to waste an emp), it has worked pretty well for me so far (backed by blink stalkers/chargelots/templar as needed). Otherwise i'll echo the sentiment that people need to not 1a into tank masses and should instead figure out new ways to abuse mech immobility.
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 03 2010 03:46 Duelist wrote:Imagine you're at the time before all patches. On June 03 2010 02:22 Salv wrote:
The strategy of not letting you opponent get ~15 colossus has been tried, and the best way to do this is to simply rush and win the game. On June 03 2010 02:22 Salv wrote:
It's not a case of being outmacroed, it's a case of the Protoss producing units, which when built up enough, cannot be stopped. On June 03 2010 03:03 ThePassingShadow wrote:
How much do fiftten [let's make it ten to make it a bit more realistic] colossus cost ? 300/200 x 10 = 3000/2000
If you're not putting enough pressure on your opponent to stop them from getting ten colossus from one base, then they could have won by other means even earlier. [...] You want to put the pressure on them really early before they can get a lot of colossus. I play Protoss against Terran every single day in Diamond League and against high-level Diamond League friends and the best way to deal with colossus is to prevent them from reaching critical mass. On June 03 2010 03:03 ThePassingShadow wrote:There are tons of and tons of PvT replays out there where the Terran player comes out on top. Check them out, like I have and others have. Early pressure with marines and marauders can prevent early colossus; Box your opponent in; if he cannot expand, he has no hope of making TEN colossus. Susbtituting the word "colossus" by "tanks" and "protoss" by "terran", and you'll get the original post. Just to say, how similar the two situations are, and of course, some protoss units were nerfed, and for good reason, and now the same reasoning should be applied to terran, since so far they've been farily immune to nerfing, though in my opinion needing it, or giving the other races better means to counter mech. Also, it seems a lot of the advice given here, is like a lion giving advice to a deer on how to escape death. First it was the protoss, now it's terran, though probably not to the same extent.
this line of thinking was wrong all along.
in brood war games between very skilled players often went into the late game where players are essentially going to have what they want.
lets take carriers in PvT for example; if the only way to beat carriers is to end the game before the opponent gets them then terran will have to all-in the protoss player and if he wins on the all-in then hes golden but if he gets stopped then he just loses. if that were the case, would any progamer play terran? absolutely not. because instead of rewarding solid play the game is rewarding risky, gambling play by terrans and you would never want to have to count on that to win games. you want to be able to count on solid play to win.
luckily BW iss balanced in the whole length of the game in mind for the most part and it shows in that statistics for win rates dont really correlate with game length.
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mech > zerg,
i usually end up using a map control strategy and starving them out, or ill nydus with speedlings. they never expect an early nydus they always think theyre so safe in their fag blockoff shit
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I have a question - why can't we make Roaches cost 1.5 supply? Zerglings are .5 supply each. So it's definitely feasible.
That, or why not just let the Zerg supply cap be 220 instead of 200, a 10% advantage over the other two races? I feel like it'd help a lot considering the core roach/hydras are both 2 supply each!
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In my own totally professional silver league opinion (rank 2 in my division, get at me =P), i've found that the units themselves aren't imbalanced in and of themselves, but in the skill it takes to use them. For example, it doesn't take much skill to just build siege tanks and thors and turtle up. however, for a zerg player like myself, countering that is much much harder.
I have done it with mutalisks, but remember, i'm in silver league, where i'm pretty sure i'm one of the rare few who even attempts to micro his units (meaning my micro was incredible for was being compared to). Mutas can take down thors without sustaining heavy losses if you spread them out (and especially break off groups to flank), and they hold up all right to balls of vikings. i've noticed i only see one or the other, rarely both. so once i take out everything that hits air, i can obviously pick off the siege siege tanks.
but here's my problem. i have to micro to the fullest extent of my ability to take down an army that the guy basically told "go here and do whatever ya'll feel like". i'm not complaining that i have to micro a lot, i'm all for things being a challenge (kinda why i play zerg). i just think that mech is way too easy for terrans. they should have to micro more to get good results from their mech force.
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On June 03 2010 03:58 PrinceXizor wrote:
well an ultralisk takes 17 hits to kill a CC.
Can you get an ultralisk 7min into the game?
Can we compare ultralisk with thors concidering that you'll need to get 2 arse long upgrade on your hatchery in order to get to them but build the ultracavern?
Can you accept the fact that ultralisk will hit a bit harder but won't be able to hit air AT ALL! not like thor literaly dicimate everything that flies....?
+ Show Spoiler +
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On June 03 2010 03:04 Lz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 02:59 Disastorm wrote:On June 03 2010 02:53 hejakev wrote:
Platinum protoss player here.
Tanks have become more of a tier 3 unit, where they were a tier 2 unit in SC1. More often than not, I will have zealot charge, stalker blink, or a bunch of immortals to help me with the tanks.
I have yet to see a successful tank-heavy build like people would do in BW. I went up against someone who litterally just got mass tanks vikings and cloaked banshees. I had maxed supply of hydra roach and couldnt break his army. I ended up winning by dropping in his base due to his immobile army and expanding while we traded bases. I feel there was no way that a zerg could break an army like that. Granted I won due to base trading antics, but I feel that is a strange way to have to win against a build. try and break a maxed tank gol vult vessel army in scbw with hydra ling ultra or any unit combo you want and its going to fail~ straight up.. maxed Mech army has allways > zerg in scbw or sc2.. nothing new.. thats why zergs have to use there brain.. sadly they would rather QQ then actually nydas worm , drop or over expand at first sight of mech.
The difference is that in scbw you had dark swarm and lurkers which you could use to at least defend your base while now in sc2, you can't defend your base with anything and it ends up in base trading antics.
Maybe its just me but doesn't it seem like base trading is a hell of a lot more common in sc2 than in bw? It seems like base trading is almost a standard strategy nowadays in sc2? It might also just be because I play Zerg and Zerg has very few in any defensive units in sc2 as opposed to sc1 where they had defiler and lurker.
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On June 03 2010 06:04 Disastorm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 03:04 Lz wrote:On June 03 2010 02:59 Disastorm wrote:On June 03 2010 02:53 hejakev wrote:
Platinum protoss player here.
Tanks have become more of a tier 3 unit, where they were a tier 2 unit in SC1. More often than not, I will have zealot charge, stalker blink, or a bunch of immortals to help me with the tanks.
I have yet to see a successful tank-heavy build like people would do in BW. I went up against someone who litterally just got mass tanks vikings and cloaked banshees. I had maxed supply of hydra roach and couldnt break his army. I ended up winning by dropping in his base due to his immobile army and expanding while we traded bases. I feel there was no way that a zerg could break an army like that. Granted I won due to base trading antics, but I feel that is a strange way to have to win against a build. try and break a maxed tank gol vult vessel army in scbw with hydra ling ultra or any unit combo you want and its going to fail~ straight up.. maxed Mech army has allways > zerg in scbw or sc2.. nothing new.. thats why zergs have to use there brain.. sadly they would rather QQ then actually nydas worm , drop or over expand at first sight of mech. The difference is that in scbw you had dark swarm and lurkers which you could use to at least defend your base while now in sc2, you can't defend your base with anything and it ends up in base trading antics. Maybe its just me but doesn't it seem like base trading is a hell of a lot more common in sc2 than in bw? It seems like base trading is almost a standard strategy nowadays in sc2? It might also just be because I play Zerg and Zerg has very few in any defensive units in sc2 as opposed to sc1 where they had defiler and lurker.
I would agree that it's much more common than it was previously (base trading).
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/3438/chuckvsthor.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/3438/chuckvsthor.jpg )
