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On June 03 2010 06:00 Konsume wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 03:58 PrinceXizor wrote:
well an ultralisk takes 17 hits to kill a CC. Can you get an ultralisk 7min into the game? Can we compare ultralisk with thors concidering that you'll need to get 2 arse long upgrade on your hatchery in order to get to them but build the ultracavern? Can you accept the fact that ultralisk will hit a bit harder but won't be able to hit air AT ALL! not like thor literaly dicimate everything that flies....? + Show Spoiler +
if you were the person i was responding to then you are just mad you got proved wrong. yeah you can rush ultras but most zerg don't because 1 base is too crappy unlike 1 base terran. but the point is you said (if it is you) that zerg doesn't have a unit that can level expos in 28 seconds, but an ultra can.
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Why is the answer to this a base trade when every Terran I have ever talked to say "Do not basetrade with Terran." This sounds odd.
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On June 03 2010 06:35 Ordained wrote:
Why is the answer to this a base trade when every Terran I have ever talked to say "Do not basetrade with Terran." This sounds odd.
The main reason why is because they can lift buildings and you end up losing the base trade. It only works if you actually have another base/expo somewhere so that you get ahead of them once you stopped them from mining/destroyed their base. I really think the only way to beat high supply Terran mech is base trade and expo while he is atacking your base.
The terran will either continue attacking your base in which case your expo will be up and producing, or maybe even double expo, the terran can go attack your expos in which case your base is free, or the terran can split his army in which case you can destroy each piece individually. Or the terran can go back and defend his base in which case You will have both your expos and your mains still alive.
I suppose Starcraft 2 is a new game so standard strategies like this might arise that I don't believe were in SC1, and I guess theres really no problem with that. It just feels weird. I don't believe there were any standard strategies in sc1 where the counter was an expo base trade, was there?
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The major issue to me is dealing with tanks in zvt - because they do full damage to every unit, there is no real unit that can get away with doing an effective job against it. Previously, hydras could sortof do kindof something against tank, but now all units are fully effected by it. Probably the largest issue of this is the lack of overkill in starcraft 2. In starcraft bw, you could often run zerglings up to a seige tank line, and a few zerglings would absorb a LOT of shots - but in sc2, if you send a lot of zerglings towards a tank line, the shots will be spread out and most of your zerglings will be killed off.
Remove overkill, and tanks become a lot less of a problem, and will help zvt greatly.
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On June 03 2010 06:46 Disastorm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 06:35 Ordained wrote:
Why is the answer to this a base trade when every Terran I have ever talked to say "Do not basetrade with Terran." This sounds odd. The main reason why is because they can lift buildings and you end up losing the base trade. It only works if you actually have another base/expo somewhere so that you get ahead of them once you stopped them from mining/destroyed their base. I really think the only way to beat high supply Terran mech is base trade and expo while he is atacking your base. The terran will either continue attacking your base in which case your expo will be up and producing, or maybe even double expo, the terran can go attack your expos in which case your base is free, or the terran can split his army in which case you can destroy each piece individually. Or the terran can go back and defend his base in which case You will have both your expos and your mains still alive.
Agree. I was being sarcastic. I have had to do the Basetrade/ expo strategy a few times but it seems like its always a lose if they are smart. They can always find my hatchery and 1 shot it before I can get my corruptors/ mutas to every corner of the map. This is terribly one sided in the Terran's favor.
I have also done the "harrass his expos" strategy. I kept a Terran to 2 bases, me having 4, 1 mined out 3 saturated fully. 60-70 drones mining and it seemed like, when he finally got angry he just pushed out and I couldnt do anything to stop it.
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I blame the maps for the most of the balence issues, to many cliffs in prime postion for tanks
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Doom drops are doom drops, if it goes unscouted then its a huge success, but you leave yourself to base trading.
The only disadvantage Protoss have against Terran is if he cliff-humps with tanks. While its always an advantage to have observers to remove fog, its still a pain in the ass to somehow take those tanks out. Using Colossi is one prime example, but it strays away from your main group and can easily be sniped by Vikings.
I suppose the only way to counter tanks in a Protoss standpoint effectively would be to go Phoenix, but then again your also at a disadvantage because lifting tanks does get them out of the picture, but its a huge investment to go Phoenix.
We need our Arbiters back, the mothership doesn't belong.
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On June 03 2010 06:56 jamesr12 wrote:
I blame the maps for the most of the balence issues, to many cliffs in prime postion for tanks
Thats an interesting point. Every map seems to favor terran, no race gets the biggest advantage with ramp/1 entrance then terran does. Its like heaven for them.
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On June 03 2010 07:02 Denarius Jay wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 06:56 jamesr12 wrote:
I blame the maps for the most of the balence issues, to many cliffs in prime postion for tanks Thats an interesting point. Every map seems to favor terran, no race gets the biggest advantage with ramp/1 entrance then terran does. Its like heaven for them.
On the other side, if you had larger maps with wider ramps and less cliffs to abuse with tanks, I believe zerg would have a big advantage over the terran army. It's not that easy to get a good balance.
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United States47024 Posts
On June 03 2010 06:56 jamesr12 wrote:
I blame the maps for the most of the balence issues, to many cliffs in prime postion for tanks
I definitely agree with this. At the same time, I'm not sure if enough games get played on the more open custom maps (like the SC1 remakes) for us to reliably say if it's a big problem on open maps.
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Can I ask to post more REPLAYS please (especially terrans losing with mech)!
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On June 03 2010 07:18 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 06:56 jamesr12 wrote:
I blame the maps for the most of the balence issues, to many cliffs in prime postion for tanks I definitely agree with this. At the same time, I'm not sure if enough games get played on the more open custom maps (like the SC1 remakes) for us to reliably say if it's a big problem on open maps.
yeah we don't know if tanks are imba yet but they will most certianly be weaker on more SC1 like maps
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On June 02 2010 23:19 Sealteam wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 23:00 Ighox wrote:
Terran mech to me just feels like it's extremely unforgiving, it might not be totally OP and it might be mostly a map issue, but I feel like a ZvT is just waiting around for the terran to do a mistake and throw the game away.
Like moving out with tanks without turrets or a raven then dying again and again to burrowed roaches is something a lot of terrans do to throw away games, dropping works if the terran does a mistake and doesn't expect it, if he's greedy and try to expand a lot with orbital commands instead of planetary fortresses he can get easily punished for that.
It's still too early in my opinion to yell out that it's OP, but I'll gladly say that it feels slightly too strong at the moment. I agree it's unforgiving, catch a terran mech army completely out of position and it's toast... But if you have your army 100% out of position then you aren't playing in high diamond. I'm 500 diamond so take it as you will but personally I find that even if I do continually harass well, the mech army gets bored of defending and comes and stomps my 3-4 bases without a problem anyway. I feel the problem with this matchup for TvZ is not so much tanks, but thors. Imagine this matchup without grouped (4 or so) thors being so ridiculously powerful against mutas (like, one shotting 5-20 at a time if your muta control isn't insanely good). There, you can build mutas to counter the tanks. Now, the terran player can react by adding more marines to react to the muta threat, which in turn can be countered by banelings (mainly drops), and the dynamic continues. I know that everyone here is focused on the tanks, but I personally see mech as not the tanks being the problem, but all the reasons I can't counter the tanks being a problem. Also, Broodlord + Corruptor does not counter mech, thors still deal with them piecemeal IF played correctly (repairing is required, as is not blowing your own shit up with tanks). Proof: http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/6791The zerg is Artosis so it isn't a scrub match. On the matter of constantly harassing... can be effective for a little while after getting drop but it is quite an investment to baneling bomb, muta harass, ect. Once there are a sensor tower or two, a thor in the mineral line and missile turrets freaking everywhere (mech has little problem with minerals), plus responsive vikings, harass is simply not cost efficient. tl;dr - The problem isn't so much the tanks as the T mech's incredibly effective responses to any attempt to counter the tanks. Harass can be dealt with.
I think this might be one of the major problems with ZvT mech. Ever since they buffed turrets, T really don't "need" thors to hard counter muta harass. Add a sensor tower and vikings and you're fine. Mutas are not a small investment... a decent muta harassment force like say 9 of them is 900 min/900 gas, so being forced to put down a few turrets which cost only minerals and with T being flooded with spare minerals anyways due to the MULEs is no problem at all.
Also... all these theory-crafted "solutions" that the T players are tossing are all from exploiting clear and obvious MISTAKES from the T (e.g. dying to burrow roaches, nydus, overlord drop, having no AA to counter muta, etc.). If you play at a higher level where the T play doesn't have obvious holes like lower level players.. then these tactics don't work anymore. Z needs a working strategy that assumes the T plays solidly for this matchup to be balanced.
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This is an admittedly cheap-seats observation, but it seems to me there is a zerg counter to a large mech army (mass corruptors and broodlords); it just might not be accessible enough right now.
Here's my thinking, so you can straighten me out:
For a start, corruptors and broodlords are funky on a number of levels:
For a start, you're only making two units. The terran has split himself three ways (tanks, thors and vikings); only two of them can even hit you, and of those only the vikings are a real cause for concern. Assuming the thors are even out in front to begin with rather than buried in the middle to defend against mutas, you can flop a volley of broodlings at their feet and the terran's short-bus siege drivers will promptly put the whole caboodle into low orbit. We can think of siege tanks as a broodling upgrade the Terran pays for.
Ok, so - Vikings. Yes, they have some wicked range. But again the 3 unit vs 2 unit dynamic seems to apply. If I'm heavy on broodlords right off the bat, they are going to make a squealing, shitting mess of his expensive thortank carpark awfully quickly, even if he has a lot of vikings. Not the best trade to make - but wait a minute: if we suspect he has lots of vikings, we can go light on broodlords instead and start with a stonking great corruptor-ball to defend them. A stonking great corruptor-ball, moreover, we can cannibalise to replenish and augment our broodlord strike force more or less [i]in situ[i], making the broodlord's leisurely pace less of an issue.
I genuinely think the problem might not be having a counter. I think the problem might be getting to it. How do you transition to mass C/BL in the face of terran tech without getting rolled meantime? What are you transitioning from? When?
Maybe some adjustments are necessary - along the lines of the recent patch changes, maybe: tweaking hive and greater spire research times. Or maybe it's down to the players to iron something out. Or maybe I'm talking utter crap.
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Australia639 Posts
As a Terran player I feel my best matchup is vs zerg and that is strictly because of the mechball. I personally would welcome a darkswarm effect. This would make the matchup much more dynamic and focus around location and manoeuvrability rather than the zerg sending waves of units in to a brickwall in hopes of knocking it down.
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On June 02 2010 20:38 SpicyCrab wrote:show me a replay of that happening outside of some ridiculously contrived circumstance that would never actually happen in a real game. People need to be a little bit more realistic about the things they say... Really.
Have you seen Qxc vs Sheth (Sorry if i mispelled ;p) ? I Don't remember which tournament it was tho but those last 2 games were quite horrible to see for zerg players. It was map dominance from Sheth and like, 16-17 ultras at a time versus only half of Qxc army.. nothing more to do there for him, he kept going on and on from 200/200 to under 100. I mean, that was pretty ridiculous that despite having all those strong units he couldn't manage to take out 1 expansion where half Qxc's army was sitting. I saw this on Iccup tv. I realize maybe he could have done something else but still, that was a lot of units and it was at top level.
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I think Dark Swarm would fit in very nicely to this matchup. Terrans still have Hunter Seeker Missile to draw zerg from the swarm and would create alot of micro intensive fights for both sides.
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I use hallucinate ALOT in 2v2s against mech terran
works VERY well
but then again, this is with a large army, I cant see it being useful when the game is 5 mins
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On June 03 2010 03:04 Lz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 02:59 Disastorm wrote:On June 03 2010 02:53 hejakev wrote:
Platinum protoss player here.
Tanks have become more of a tier 3 unit, where they were a tier 2 unit in SC1. More often than not, I will have zealot charge, stalker blink, or a bunch of immortals to help me with the tanks.
I have yet to see a successful tank-heavy build like people would do in BW. I went up against someone who litterally just got mass tanks vikings and cloaked banshees. I had maxed supply of hydra roach and couldnt break his army. I ended up winning by dropping in his base due to his immobile army and expanding while we traded bases. I feel there was no way that a zerg could break an army like that. Granted I won due to base trading antics, but I feel that is a strange way to have to win against a build. try and break a maxed tank gol vult vessel army in scbw with hydra ling ultra or any unit combo you want and its going to fail~ straight up.. maxed Mech army has allways > zerg in scbw or sc2.. nothing new.. thats why zergs have to use there brain.. sadly they would rather QQ then actually nydas worm , drop or over expand at first sight of mech.
This thread and community whining is so horrible, I need to re-quote LZgamer again, cause I 100% agree, 100% spot on.
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On June 03 2010 08:07 Myown wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 20:38 SpicyCrab wrote:[B]
a 100/200 terran mech army runs over a 200/200 zerg.
show me a replay of that happening outside of some ridiculously contrived circumstance that would never actually happen in a real game. People need to be a little bit more realistic about the things they say... Really. Have you seen Qxc vs Sheth (Sorry if i mispelled ;p) ? I Don't remember which tournament it was tho but those last 2 games were quite horrible to see for zerg players. It was map dominance from Sheth and like, 16-17 ultras at a time versus only half of Qxc army.. nothing more to do there for him, he kept going on and on from 200/200 to under 100. I mean, that was pretty ridiculous that despite having all those strong units he couldn't manage to take out 1 expansion where half Qxc's army was sitting. I saw this on Iccup tv. I realize maybe he could have done something else but still, that was a lot of units and it was at top level.
That's also a situation where sheth could have gotten a billion corrupters and broodlords and fought instead of getting a metric shit ton of ultralisks, which are slow and melt to tank fire. Not to mention the fact that he didn't get any lings at all, which I think could have gotten at least a few hits off, not really doing a lot of damage, but at least some instead of just a ton of slow moving ultralisks that just die. Also, that game looked a lot like sheth had given up and was just being annoyed and showing how shitty ultralisks were.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/3438/chuckvsthor.jpg )
