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i wouldnt mind a range reduction on the thor tbh.
apart from that, i wouldn't be surprised if sieged damage were to be "returned" to something like 35 + 35 vs armored (...eventually)
anyways... i wanted to derail this thread in order to talk about dropping stuff onto a bunch of tanks. what keeps us from doing so? is it because every kind of shittle is "armored" and it takes 6-7 vikings to two-shot overlords/medivacs/warp prisms?
if that is the case, what could possibly be wrong about that trinity losing this attribute?
or is the minimum range of sieged tanks too small (it's 2.0 - less than two marauders/roaches are in diameter)? what would fundamentally change if it were "nerfed" up to 3.0 or even 4.0?
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tech is a monster against zerg. drops only work if your opponent neglects to get anti-air (thors, vikings, marines), and if you can't do a drop, there's no way you can attack the army head on. your whole ground army will die before they even get in range of a tank. if you mass corrupters and broodlords you may have a chance...
and to spicy crab, go see Sheth vs qxc. this is what opened my eyes. you can skip to 53 or 130 min to see mech games (read slaughter). the lost temple one is more depresssing imo
EDIT: another problem that idrA mentioned that I think is huge and people may be underestimating is the sensor tower. I'm not a terran player, but I have a feeling only the pros are really seeing the power of the sensor tower. if terran goes mech, really your only chance is harassment and drops, but with the sensor tower that has a billion range, the opponent can position themself to intercept your units, be they overlords, mutalisks, or nydus worms.
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I think the main problem with mech is the map selection. mech is super balanced on larger maps. Kulas Ravine, while really choke heavy has alot of backways and stuff that mech has a hard time covering, lost temple can be good depending on positions for outmaneuvering mech, Desert Oasis is great for beating mech. the other maps tend to suck when facing mech though.
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On June 03 2010 00:24 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 00:22 Housemd wrote:
I think that we Blizzard should definitely add something like a spell to counter the terran mech army. Maybe some explosive creep tumors (for 35 energy)? When exploded they can cause 25 damage to units in a nearby radius. That'd basically be a burrowed baneling. Potentially effective, but slow to come out and will only work once as afterwards the Terran will make sure to have detection (which they should have anyways as it prevents burrowed roaches as well).
Hmmmmm...then maybe something like that is dropped from an overseer. Or even make the ultralisk a flying unit for 20 seconds in which they can use this spell. I prefer the overseer one but im trying to kill two birds in one stone. (ultralisks and this problem)
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Ultra/roach drop onto mech is very effective if they are a big ball, just use some muta/corruptor/dummy ovies to draw fire so you won't lose the valuable ones to vikings on the way in. Not the best inside their base where turrets/spread tanks will pick you apart but tends to work alright if they try and roll in your front.
Also, people are HIGHLY overrating thors AA ability if you think 2 of them hard counters mutas without significant backup.
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What Protoss player a-moves nowadays? Seriously any P that a-moves into the enemy just go reroll Zerg please.
Now onto serious business, I don't think its imbalanced, it does give terran great map control, but theres a lot of options to bust a siege. From the Protoss point of view, theres a bunch of options. Crabmortals in the front take the first siege shots pretty well, and if you focus fire a couple of crabmortals can eat a bunch of his tanks before going down. Hallucinated zealots are another good option if you're good on sentries. They have decent hp plus they spawn in pairs. The good old zealot bombing still works, even though its extremely rare to not see any anti air in a terran siege, if you see no anti air by all means go zealot bomb. It's the best method hands down, now you can even deploy the warp prism on top of them and warp directly underneath, you dont even need to load the zealots. Another option, make phoenixes and lift all tanks, then proceed with your "a-move" sir. Even if all phoenixes die, your ground units should arrive within range by the time the tanks are dropped back. And if they have viking support the answer is clear: void rays. Charge them up with a pylon or rocks or whatever beforehand and the vikings melt. The mothership too. If its an extreme turtling opponent just recall your units inside his base and nevermind his blockade.
As far as zerg goes, mass muta/choguling or broodlords sounds good i guess. If they got no turrets, then research burrow for roach and sneak them up, then pop them close to the tanks so they blow up each other. Doom drop another option, just put some empty overlords in front to take the first turret shots...
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k so i read a few posts but im short on time... Im a strong terran that loves to use mech. But one thing ive only seen once and i mean ONCE! is a protoss do something similar to SC1 using dropships with the speed upgrade and dropping zeals in the middle of my tanks
Yes... You're such a strong Terran player that you don't build Thors, Vikings, or Marines which all almost instantly kill a warp prism because it's made of paper.
I feel if Thor's bonus and or splash damage was removed so that both races could COUNTER tanks (phoenix w/ Graviton, mutas) it would be a balancing change as more vikings, or marines would be much easier to deal with for both races.
Or could the problem be having 13, 9, and 7 range on these units?
As a toss player my issue lies with ghosts nullifying what is supposed to be our hard counter to tanks. 150 gas + 150 minerals (or 200 gas, 350 minerals if you want to take into account the building) to completely kill any hope of utilizing the unit that was made specifically to kill mech is silly. Heaven forbid they start getting a raven or two in there for PDD, as blink stalkers feel like the only hope sometimes... Even then, marauders are often the choice against toss, over thors as vikings deal handily with any air threat toss has.
The lack of open space on maps might also be the problem. Almost every map has critical choke points scattered throughout which leave very small openings, and makes it extremely hard to break through or flank your opponent. Not all of us have one control group syndrome, but it doesn't make a difference.
Everyone talking about utilizing drops should realize early/mid game is not the problem. If it goes past that, that's where all of us non-terrans are having the issues and sensor towers are covering the map making no element of surprise. Perhaps the addition of sensor towers just added to this problem.
Almost every composition of units either race can get is outperformed by a large margin, and terran players will say they're not because of mistakes on their part when they end up losing. I wish the bioball days were back.
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in addition maps in sc2 are really really small, and its way easier for the sc2 terran to abuse cliff against zerg than it was in sc1
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On June 03 2010 00:19 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 00:09 Snowfield wrote:On June 03 2010 00:06 Geiko wrote:On June 03 2010 00:02 AmstAff wrote:On June 03 2010 00:00 shiftY803 wrote:On June 02 2010 23:56 PredY wrote:+ Show Spoiler +funny how everyone here argues imba/not imba but noone has suggested any balance solutions yet I suggest reducing thor splash damage to air. Then mutas become a better response to tank/hellion play, which the terran will respond to with marines/vikings etc. Right not I feel like T players simply say, "Mutas? lol build thors." MAYBE and only MAYBE its because thors are THE HARDCOUNTER to mutas? they are made to own mutas. Thors are also hard counter to hydras, and very efficient against roaches. Furthermore, what we are discussing here is exactly the fact that terran have hard counters to everything while NOTHING hard counters Thors+tanks. That said, not having hard counters doesn't meen you lost the game, just meens you have to be that much better than your opponent. Mutas attack air and ground aswell and are very effective at it, i don't really see how you can complain about a slow ass ground unit that does the same zerglings / infestors counter thors, but i guess you knew that But ohwait, now your gonna say a unit that counters the zergling and infestor, and then we make nice circles Once again you missed my point. Mutas are ok at everything but 2 thors kills infinite mutas. If the zerg is a micro god, you may need a third thor for infinite muta kill. I'm trying to find a unit composition that counters Tank+Thor and there just isn't any. If your answer to Terran mech is going mutas/lings/infestor i think you may need to experiment that for yourself to see how ridiculous that is. Explain to me how your going to mind control or zergling surround a thor sitting next to a bunch of tanks ?
While the terran army is incredibly immobile, why not drop his base, gop around, harass his mineral lines, wait till he has to fall back or pushes, then attack
2 thors will never kill an infinite amount of mutas, try it for yourself
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It keeps astounding me that people think the only way to fight thors with mutas is in a really big blob head on
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Since when do terrans push with 2 thors?
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I agree that the terran army is more cost effective than the zerg but is this actually a flaw? Or is it in fact inevitable. It seems to me that the terran army HAS to be more cost effective than a zerg army if you factor in the speed at which a zerg player can replentish a 200 supply army after that huge battle in the late game where both players loose most of their army. It is not enough for terran to win a battle against zerg in late game you have to win it with a large enough margin to not get rolled over by the tsunami of reinforcements that come flooding in right afterwards.
Given, these balance factors don't apply as much on all maps, right now terran unit retention would have an advantage on steppes of war and incineration zone type maps, while zerg has the advantage on maps like desert oasis and metalopolis. I really think that map layout means everything to this discussion.
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I think we still need to see more games to get a good idea about mech. I find it interesting that some of the top zergs are able to beat the top terrans going mech and everyone else cries imba. For now I think it's ok but it's very tough to deal with.
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One observation that holds true throughout Beta and really to other games:
When you start hearing these things from any people representing a race that is perceived to be winning too much about the other races just not learning the right BOs, the maps being coincidentally imbalanced in their favor, the other races clearly just haven't been building the right units, etc, that race is always too strong.
This is particularly true for people that main terran (I'm one of them). We heard the EXACT same arguments from Protoss about the Immortal timing pushes. Now we're saying the exact same thing to the Zerg. It's OK to admit that some things are too strong. It's not our fault.
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People definitely overstate the effectiveness of thors vs mutas in stopping mutas from harassing or being effective. It's true in a head on battle the mutas aren't going to be able to take out tanks if they're protected from thors, but mutas can tear up lone thors or dance around them to harass.
The problem though is this... Terran mech is SO cost effective vs Zerg on the whole that a Terran player is not really behind by investing in missile turrets, especially since it renders the mutas and 200/200 spire pretty ineffective. So while thors alone won't cover mutas it's just so economical and feasible for the Terran to turret up a bit without really sacrificing too much (especially since it helps with drops as well).
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On June 03 2010 00:43 Takkara wrote:
One observation that holds true throughout Beta and really to other games:
When you start hearing these things from any people representing a race that is perceived to be winning too much about the other races just not learning the right BOs, the maps being coincidentally imbalanced in their favor, the other races clearly just haven't been building the right units, etc, that race is always too strong.
This is particularly true for people that main terran (I'm one of them). We heard the EXACT same arguments from Protoss about the Immortal timing pushes. Now we're saying the exact same thing to the Zerg. It's OK to admit that some things are too strong. It's not our fault.
people have to do what terrans did. adjust.
i mean thru how many openings and unit comps did T go since the start of the beta? i dont think any other race has seen remotly as much change and adjusting then T. sure mass bio spam always was there but you saw lotsa experimenting till they ended up with the current style.
while Z/P are doing exactly the most exact thing (Z atleast tweaked the openings,P is exactly the same) as 3 motnhs ago, aclick their huge 1 control group army into a well protected tank battery and then complain its imbaimba when it doesnt work so great.
i wont say its perfectly balanced cause i dont know. but i wont agree its a problem yet either.
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I think in order for it to really be imbalanced, terrans would really need to start really winning against zerg with mech in tournaments with a decent frequency.
It's hard to say "TvZ is soo terran favored" and then watch a tournament end up with 1 terran in the Ro8 (and seven zergs), or to have all the terrans use a mech-ish style and have Zerg win almost all of the games, like in some recent Asian tournaments. I guess there's the argument that "terran players suck" or that "terran play hasn't evolved enough yet", but . . .
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On June 02 2010 22:46 ymirheim wrote:
I can't see how tanks are any less fair than broodlords which are essentially flying siege tanks. Both units got sick range, both units can only hit ground. Both units are kind of bad when you just got one or two but when they reach a critical mass they can keep any units from even getting in range.
But at the same time both units are slow, and vulnerable to attacks from the air. Taking them out when well supported by other units is hard though but not impossible.
and of course, lets also mention that BL : tank tech and cost is roughly the same, lets demonstrate
tank needs : barrack (150/0) -> factory(150/100) -> tech lab(50/50) -> siege tech (100/100)
so, 4 techs which costs (450/200)
BL needs : spawning pool(200/0) -> lair(150/100) -> infestation pit(100/100) -> hive(200/150) -> spire(200/200) -> greater spire(100/150)
and thats 6 techs and (950/700)
hmm, well, thats roughly equivalent, wouldn't you say?
lets take a gander at the cost of the units themselves.
tank = (150/125)
BL = (150/100) + (150/150) = (300/250)
well, I guess thats pretty much the same, I commend you, good reasoning comparing the tank to the BL
sarcasm win
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Hallucinate is a joke against mech. You build a bunch of sentries to hallucinate zealots that get instantly destroyed, and then what? Are you going to blow all his tanks up with those expensive sentries? You won't have enough firepower to do anything if you get enough hallucinated zealots to have any lasting effect.
On June 03 2010 00:41 ymirheim wrote:
I agree that the terran army is more cost effective than the zerg but is this actually a flaw? Or is it in fact inevitable. It seems to me that the terran army HAS to be more cost effective than a zerg army if you factor in the speed at which a zerg player can replentish a 200 supply army
It's a matter of critical mass. You can throw a 200 supply Z army at 150 supply T army, and the T army will suffer minimal losses. Zerg has no units or spells that can counter T mech once it reaches that critical mass. It doesn't really matter how strong Z's economy is, or how fast they can replenish units (it's faster, but not that much faster) when they're largely ineffective.
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i think Mech is very hard to counter, ppl just need to learn ways to counter it. i just played a 2v2(on Twilight) vs 2 terrans went mass mech, i noticed they were gonna attack and i knew they'd whipe my whole Z army, so i just Nydas wormed in there base and destroyed there entire base which led to a win. So it is really hard to counter, but players jus need to learn counters. Like alot of tournys terran barely makes it far at all, so really, not so imba
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EPT
