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On May 20 2010 02:07 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 02:04 bendez wrote:On May 20 2010 01:58 avilo wrote:On May 20 2010 01:56 Shiladie wrote:On May 20 2010 01:46 bendez wrote:
Argh, another non-zerg player bs theorycrafting without any replays.. agreed, this is all I see... Please actually try playing zerg above gold league before saying everything is fine and dandy... you guys are pretty adept at trolling. I'm 2k+ on eu server, same on us servers, this is not bs theorycrafting. What it is, is being rational about the changes and looking that Zergs are not abusing everything they have (NYDUS). If I was an "artosis" or some other figure posting this, you would take it at face value, so try reading and absorbing instead of continuously asking for my replay folder. nydus is 300 freaking gas and ...you know what? I'm not even gonna bother. Seriously, isn't this what you admins call "bs theorycrafting without any replays"? If not, I got tons of idea for protoss, how mothership + carriers are valid options /sarc People should really stop trolling about "post ur replay pack." If you want me to post a few games from my own, I will gladly, but you should go ask other top T's like morrow and whoever the hell else to post some games - you will have no such luck probably because many feel they have to "hide" their build orders or something silly like that.
You are the troll here. Theorycrafting without any replays to prove it.
You got tons of replays where zerg owned you using clever usage of nydus? post it. Really, what's stopping you?
Oh and in recent game on MorroW vs MoMan, MorroW admitted that terran mech is op against zerg.
Sigh these damn trolls. Admins really should close this thread.
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On May 20 2010 02:14 bendez wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 02:07 avilo wrote:On May 20 2010 02:04 bendez wrote:On May 20 2010 01:58 avilo wrote:On May 20 2010 01:56 Shiladie wrote:On May 20 2010 01:46 bendez wrote:
Argh, another non-zerg player bs theorycrafting without any replays.. agreed, this is all I see... Please actually try playing zerg above gold league before saying everything is fine and dandy... you guys are pretty adept at trolling. I'm 2k+ on eu server, same on us servers, this is not bs theorycrafting. What it is, is being rational about the changes and looking that Zergs are not abusing everything they have (NYDUS). If I was an "artosis" or some other figure posting this, you would take it at face value, so try reading and absorbing instead of continuously asking for my replay folder. nydus is 300 freaking gas and ...you know what? I'm not even gonna bother. Seriously, isn't this what you admins call "bs theorycrafting without any replays"? If not, I got tons of idea for protoss, how mothership + carriers are valid options /sarc People should really stop trolling about "post ur replay pack." If you want me to post a few games from my own, I will gladly, but you should go ask other top T's like morrow and whoever the hell else to post some games - you will have no such luck probably because many feel they have to "hide" their build orders or something silly like that. You are the troll here. Theorycrafting without any replays to prove it. You got tons of replays where zerg owned you using clever usage of nydus? post it. Really, what's stopping you? Oh and in recent game on MorroW vs MoMan, MorroW admitted that terran mech is op against zerg. Sigh these damn trolls. Admins really should close this thread.
stop asking for a replay pack.
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If terran plays defensively with mech, it is extremely difficult to beat them once they get to 125-150 supply. At that point the roach 2 supply disadvantage kicks in, and you are left with almost nothing that can beat the terran mech ball except for broodlords. And most good terrans can push your base before you get broodlords.
If you use roach you need to get burrow and harass terran and not let him build up a mass of tanks/4+ thors/hellions. It can work, but it's a totaly uphill battle the entire time. And once terrans learn to get turrets/scan/ravens at the right time, I think the roach will no longer be viable against terran mech, and zerg will have nothing except try and stop the push until they can get to broodlords (not sure if that's the correct balance or not)
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Hey guys I like dat I don't lose to zerg now I think theyre fine. I could play them to see for myself but I'd rather just argue with every zerg player about how they don't play their race correctly.
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@avilo
You're the one making a claim here and people are asking that you show proof which backs that claim. It's not unreasonable for them to ask that you post a few replays proving your point. Also, as far as I'm aware, it's part of the SC2 forum rules that you do if you're discussing issues of balance.
People are not simply going to sit there and take you at your word. If Artosis said something along the same lines, people would probably ask him for examples to show his point and I would assume he'd be able to show games that do.
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The real issue isn't that Roaches are more expensive now, and the smaller lategame army is nothing but a balance problem. However the current Zerg design is flawed.
- Zerg is about masses of units. Nerfing the roach but keeping the supply cost low is the better choice purely because of the racial identity.
- Spawn Larva is extremely powerful. If many Zerg units are strong and high in cost/supply, then Zerg needs less larvae. That makes Spawn Larva even more ridiculous. The only units that really are expensive in terms of larvae are drones and zerglings. 2 Banelings cost as much as 1 Hydralisk (except for 1 supply), so they are pretty light on larvae.
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Well, to say that I'm disappointed in blizzard for this change would be an understatement.
Now can someone tell me - without roaches being viable, how do you heat marine/siegetank?
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I am sure Zerg will be more than fine vs TLO's excellent TvZ fast expo mech after Ultralisks are buffed. But even then I still don't think it's as one sides as many people think. It has only been less than two weeks since the roach nerf for crying out loud.
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If you want me to post a few games from my own, I will gladly. -avilo
stop asking for a replay pack. -avilo
-_-...
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One side of me says it forces unit diversity and more lair tech units other than mindless roach spam (cause thats wat was happening). Kinda like in BW where after terran gets like 8 marines nothing below lair tech is going to touch, which forces zerg to get lair quickly. Another part of me however says "holy shit tvz is so fucking easy for me now and theres almost no early game threat other than some cheesy all in ling strat"
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On May 20 2010 01:59 Maggeus wrote:
Roach buff ? I'm not sure at all.
But an overall upgrade to ZvT, it is still needed, simply because Zerg don't have a way to properly react to a mech ball. What's positive with the nerf roach IMO is that zerg needs to flank instead of Burrow / Move / Unburrow on tanks.
The nerf of roach in itself was needed, but the fact is it entirely changed the MU against T. Simply because you don't need marauders anymore to counter roaches, at least 3 tanks are sufficient.
Now, flying barracks + hellion + tanks is a joke. A total joke. It's almost insane when it's properly used. The zerg has next to none possibilities, sadly, or only costly or all-in things.
Like many already said that, zerg needs a new unit. More versatility is what's needed right now.
BTW, I approve that this topic is not a joke. Of course, many are overreacting simply because they loved roaches, and still want to love them. But right now, it's not a roach problem, it's a balance problem.
Good think tanks and hellions attack mutas.
Avilo I agree with you greatly, I think a lot of the people going in rage-mode are the ones who really don't use infestors to their fullest potential. It's amazing what a group of hydra/lings/infestors can do to most Terran army makeups. Not to mention the early muta harass work wonders vs a terran who thinks roach/hydra after a scan.
Remember Zerg till hold major macro advantages, and they get all their units w/ overpowered larva injection from hatches. Terran have to build multiple starports/facts/rax just to keep up w/ army replenishment.
And my last post kind off topic but, I love how the tables have turned lol. Before it was the zergies telling us terran to learn how to play above gold, now it's our turn ^^
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So, how do you explain two of the top korean Zerg players switching from Z to T after the latest patch?
You theorycraft and refuse to post any replays to back up your claims when someone calls you out for it.
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On May 20 2010 02:23 StayFrosty wrote:
Well, to say that I'm disappointed in blizzard for this change would be an understatement.
Now can someone tell me - without roaches being viable, how do you heat marine/siegetank?
Perhaps it's not that zerg is underpowered but that terran is overpowered?
Just a thought since everyone seems to be seeing it from one side
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hum... thinking back at what Day9 said, I would say something like this: overreact? yes. tougher to make good use of roach? yes but not impossible. Screwing up pro's BO? yes, but they can adapt :3 useless? nope.
and you should look at asian servers' zerg: they abuse nydus worm :3
I strongly suggest watching day9 daily and the euro vs asia tournament.
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On May 20 2010 02:00 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 01:58 zionman wrote:
Ur saying we cant ever beat the T army, & have to resort to being lame / backstabbing .
Meh if that would b the solution , i'm quitting z , but i'm gonna try other options then this before i do tho. I would suggest you never go back to playing Brood war then, because versus Terran mech in brood war guess what little jimmmy? That is exactly what you have to do. You have to drop, macro your economy and chip away at the ball instead of trying to blunt force trauma it. did you ever play SC1? edit: oh, and MUTAS, LOTS OF THEM!
coming from the guy who has been saying zerg is so imba vs T and T can't win. Another note is this is not Bw this is sc2.
Roaches do need some sort of buff as of right now the 2 population with no buff to compensate it has made zerg struggle in zvt. Zvt has gone downhill to where its hard to win like insanely hard so there needs to be a change for this whether you agree with it or not.
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Siege Tank/Marauder was all a Terran ever needed for ground superiority against Zerg. Even before the roach nerf.
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i'm sure if we ask SEn real nice, he'll be able to provide a few asia-nydus-replays.
drops are being re-discovered right now: for now people are just looking at banelings but once zerg got used to it (again), there's bound to be more - with overlords dumping creep and all that.
but yes, artosis' conclusion of "streamlined learning" and thereby implying that zerg are further ahead, possibly at their peak is nothing short of pompous and this arrogance is the beginning of the end.
to then blame it on unit diversity, roaches or whatever excuse you might come up with is just weak.
i am by no means a fanboi of blizzards but zergs these days are making things too easy for the "it's fine" posters
On May 20 2010 02:35 blade55555 wrote:Roaches do need some sort of buff as of right now the 2 population with no buff to compensate
"to compensate"...?
this would imply that it was a balanced unit before. it simply wasn't. this wasn't some flavor change to mix things up a bit - it was a nerf where a nerf was due.
but yes, i hope marauders and void rays get their nerf bat clubbing as well
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I played CnC as well, the most competitive title of all was by far Red Alert 2, most balanced, and it boiled down to both sides just tank rushing all game pretty much.
But it was still fun and challenging. Trying to say that massing one unit cannot be fun or challenging requires you to realize how some people find checkers really fun.
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The only thing I do vs T now is go muta's blindly, its the only thing I can do to make him uneasy now.
As I've said in another thread, Once terran gets a few thor, a few tanks, a few hellions and a few vikings, they counter anything the zerg tech tree has to offer.
Tanks > hydra's, banelings, Ultralisks, zerglings, roaches at a huge range.
Hellions > zerglings if they even manage to get close.
Thor + Viking > muta's , corruptors and broodlords. And Ultralisks when you use the 250 mm cannons.
Don't even think about throwing the infestor in the mix, not only do the tanks OBLITERATE them completely, a fungal growth won't do anything against a siegetank army that is stationairy anyway. A neural parasite can't land because it dies before it is in range.
The one powerful thing terran has is range, something which the zerg lacks. This is why a good mechball can just erase the map of zerg stuff.
An overlord drop will easily be spotted when the terran is turteling, and a nydus takes a whopping 20 seconds to even pop, with 200 health, giving you way more than enough time to spot and kill it with your scv's.
Needless to say I'm looking forward to the overseer and infestor changes, maybe they will allow the zerg to get up close and personal with a mech army.
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Nydus is countered too easily to always be used.
Any terran worth their salt can just patrol 2-3 marines around their base while they push out, and there ya go, its nydus proof. 200 hp is too little, any unit basically can take it out in the 20 seconds it takes to pop up.
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EPT
