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On May 20 2010 01:57 Gretorp wrote:
I think roaches will get a buff. I'm OK with them have 2 supply, but at least put their regen back to what they use to be or add the armor back on . I think theoretically the regen would be much better, and they should evolve in either lair or hive tech like before so they can scale with end game toss and terran(tanks specifically)
But Gretorp, yet again this doesn't fit with the zerg theme of massing weak units to have a giant swarm.
I guess this is mildly off-topic but it seems to me that the entire theory behind the roach (essentially being a tank unit) doesn't fit with anything in brood war's zerg at all other than the ultralisk which we still have in sc2...
IMO the problem with zerg at the moment (and part of the reason they nerfed the roach's food) is the larvae injection at 200/200 supply where zergs get themselves 11 or 15 larvae at each hatchery, suicide their army and immediately have 200/200 supply again in one production cycle. If they fixed this somehow and then concentrated on individual unit balance I feel like we'd have a much better situation.
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On May 20 2010 01:41 -orb- wrote:
While I think talk about the 2 supply change has gotten a little out of hand and a little over the top, then when you look at the other side of things and see that TLO has never lost with his TvZ build you start to realize that maybe things aren't close to balanced anyways.
But then again, maybe TLO is just really really good?
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On May 20 2010 01:58 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 01:56 Shiladie wrote:On May 20 2010 01:46 bendez wrote:
Argh, another non-zerg player bs theorycrafting without any replays.. agreed, this is all I see... Please actually try playing zerg above gold league before saying everything is fine and dandy... you guys are pretty adept at trolling. I'm 2k+ on eu server, same on us servers, this is not bs theorycrafting. What it is, is being rational about the changes and looking that Zergs are not abusing everything they have (NYDUS). If I was an "artosis" or some other figure posting this, you would take it at face value, so try reading and absorbing instead of continuously asking for my replay folder.
right now your word is simply backed by your post count, nothing else, provide replays like the forum REQUIRES and you will be taken seriously, right now I could spout off about how terrans would win 100% of the time if they just fast teched to BCs and be just as credible as you are being right now...
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Imo just wait till they buff ultras and then you have your lategame beef.
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On May 20 2010 01:58 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 01:56 Shiladie wrote:On May 20 2010 01:46 bendez wrote:
Argh, another non-zerg player bs theorycrafting without any replays.. agreed, this is all I see... Please actually try playing zerg above gold league before saying everything is fine and dandy... you guys are pretty adept at trolling. I'm 2k+ on eu server, same on us servers, this is not bs theorycrafting. What it is, is being rational about the changes and looking that Zergs are not abusing everything they have (NYDUS). If I was an "artosis" or some other figure posting this, you would take it at face value, so try reading and absorbing instead of continuously asking for my replay folder.
nydus is 300 freaking gas and ...you know what? I'm not even gonna bother.
Seriously, isn't this what you admins call "bs theorycrafting without any replays"?
If not, I got tons of idea for protoss, how mothership + carriers are valid options /sarc
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If you compare the roach and the marauder now, marauders with concussive grenades are infinitely better than roaches with regen.
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I'm a ~2000 Zerg player and since the nerf I avoid roaches like the plague. It's really hard as a zerg to get a decent army out of your 200 supplies. I lose many games being 2-3 expos up but getting stomped in the 200/200 battle vs Terrans. With the small maps, it's gg after that. Hydra/Baneline/Ling, even with Infestors, is pretty even with pure Marauder/Rine/Medivac/(Tanks). Roaches are just a total waste at 200. You can use their speed to try to harass the Terran (on big maps, fu Blizzard) but you better not bring any to the big fight.
On May 20 2010 02:02 -orb- wrote:
IMO the problem with zerg at the moment (and part of the reason they nerfed the roach's food) is the larvae injection at 200/200 supply where zergs get themselves 11 or 15 larvae at each hatchery, suicide their army and immediately have 200/200 supply again in one production cycle. If they fixed this somehow and then concentrated on individual unit balance I feel like we'd have a much better situation.
That might be somewhat true on Metalopolis and LT, but on all other maps, once Zerg loses their army, they are dead. You will never get a chance to gather your army afterwards on all the other maps.
As Bey said, Zerg has to pull of something like drops/nydus or get lucky with catching the Terran off guard to win. If you just play solid macro, even if you fend off the early harass well and have map control for a long time, you probably lose.
I often feel like the only way to win vs the Terran ball is to switch to Mutas instead of Hydras, but Thors are so extremely good against them it's not really viable.
Basically: gj Blizzard not including more big maps during the Beta (which is pretty much over, to all the "it's only Beta!"-criers).
Now I wonder why I made this post if this thread is getting closed anyway.
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On May 20 2010 02:02 -orb- wrote:
IMO the problem with zerg at the moment (and part of the reason they nerfed the roach's food) is the larvae injection at 200/200 supply where zergs get themselves 11 or 15 larvae at each hatchery, suicide their army and immediately have 200/200 supply again in one production cycle. If they fixed this somehow and then concentrated on individual unit balance I feel like we'd have a much better situation.
This requires that you let the Zerg pile up a lot of resources while he is sitting pretty at 200/200.
I would presume if that's the case, maybe you are being a little too turtle-ish?
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On May 20 2010 02:02 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 01:57 Gretorp wrote:
I think roaches will get a buff. I'm OK with them have 2 supply, but at least put their regen back to what they use to be or add the armor back on . I think theoretically the regen would be much better, and they should evolve in either lair or hive tech like before so they can scale with end game toss and terran(tanks specifically) But Gretorp, yet again this doesn't fit with the zerg theme of massing weak units to have a giant swarm. I guess this is mildly off-topic but it seems to me that the entire theory behind the roach (essentially being a tank unit) doesn't fit with anything in brood war's zerg at all other than the ultralisk which we still have in sc2... IMO the problem with zerg at the moment (and part of the reason they nerfed the roach's food) is the larvae injection at 200/200 supply where zergs get themselves 11 or 15 larvae at each hatchery, suicide their army and immediately have 200/200 supply again in one production cycle. If they fixed this somehow and then concentrated on individual unit balance I feel like we'd have a much better situation.
yep, that is the larva inject strength i'm talking about too. Late game Zerg is just insanely scary, but now patch 12 it seems people are up in arms (especially about TvZ), that if a T maintains his army he does not instantly die to 1a roaches -> re-max 200/200(which there would be twice as many of pre-patch).
yes, it is hard to play versus mech, but just like in SC1, most Z are not playing versus it correctly.
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On May 20 2010 02:04 Lollersauce wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 02:02 -orb- wrote:
IMO the problem with zerg at the moment (and part of the reason they nerfed the roach's food) is the larvae injection at 200/200 supply where zergs get themselves 11 or 15 larvae at each hatchery, suicide their army and immediately have 200/200 supply again in one production cycle. If they fixed this somehow and then concentrated on individual unit balance I feel like we'd have a much better situation. This requires that you let the Zerg pile up a lot of resources while he is sitting pretty at 200/200. I would presume if that's the case, maybe you are being a little too turtle-ish?
This is what every good zerg player is doing... they get to 200/200 and then just sit around expanding. If you attack them and trade armies it'll take you ages to recreate your army while zerg will instantly be at 200/200 again.
It's not about me. I'm not being turtlish. I'm not a terran player... it's from what I'm seeing in high level games.
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On May 20 2010 02:04 bendez wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 01:58 avilo wrote:On May 20 2010 01:56 Shiladie wrote:On May 20 2010 01:46 bendez wrote:
Argh, another non-zerg player bs theorycrafting without any replays.. agreed, this is all I see... Please actually try playing zerg above gold league before saying everything is fine and dandy... you guys are pretty adept at trolling. I'm 2k+ on eu server, same on us servers, this is not bs theorycrafting. What it is, is being rational about the changes and looking that Zergs are not abusing everything they have (NYDUS). If I was an "artosis" or some other figure posting this, you would take it at face value, so try reading and absorbing instead of continuously asking for my replay folder. nydus is 300 freaking gas and ...you know what? I'm not even gonna bother. Seriously, isn't this what you admins call "bs theorycrafting without any replays"? If not, I got tons of idea for protoss, how mothership + carriers are valid options /sarc
People should really stop trolling about "post ur replay pack." If you want me to post a few games from my own, I will gladly, but you should go ask other top T's like morrow and whoever the hell else to post some games - you will have no such luck probably because many feel they have to "hide" their build orders or something silly like that.
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On May 20 2010 01:58 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 01:56 Shiladie wrote:On May 20 2010 01:46 bendez wrote:
Argh, another non-zerg player bs theorycrafting without any replays.. agreed, this is all I see... Please actually try playing zerg above gold league before saying everything is fine and dandy... you guys are pretty adept at trolling. I'm 2k+ on eu server, same on us servers, this is not bs theorycrafting. What it is, is being rational about the changes and looking that Zergs are not abusing everything they have (NYDUS). If I was an "artosis" or some other figure posting this, you would take it at face value, so try reading and absorbing instead of continuously asking for my replay folder.
It costs 100/100 and takes 20 seconds for a Nydus Worm to spawn. And units only pop out one at a time. Due to the quantity of time it takes to build, you simply cannot use this as a direct means of attack. Unless the opponent is a total n00b, putting it in an opponent's base will result in losing 100 gas, at a minimum.
Given this fact, what exactly is it that you expect Zergs to "abuse" with Nydus Worms? The most you can really do is use it to move your army without the enemy seeing it (and without possibility of being intercepted).
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On May 20 2010 02:00 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 01:58 zionman wrote:
Ur saying we cant ever beat the T army, & have to resort to being lame / backstabbing .
Meh if that would b the solution , i'm quitting z , but i'm gonna try other options then this before i do tho. I would suggest you never go back to playing Brood war then, because versus Terran mech in brood war guess what little jimmmy? That is exactly what you have to do. You have to drop, macro your economy and chip away at the ball instead of trying to blunt force trauma it. did you ever play SC1? edit: oh, and MUTAS, LOTS OF THEM!
U never listened to those day 9 podcasts then, he said mass units of zerglings & hydralisks.
& i found i did pretty well vs mech compared to sc2
Where i lose 200/200 vs terran & before he is at my base i'm back up to 178 ( due having entiure half of my map) but i lose all those units again ;;;
Spawn larva didnt save me there :'(
I'm just flustered about " how do you chip away at the ball by dropping his base when he moves out 200/200 "
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I've always played zerg until the roach nerf. then i discovered how good terran is vs zerg. I just did 1 base M&M&M a click t click winO_o
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On May 20 2010 02:02 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 01:57 Gretorp wrote:
I think roaches will get a buff. I'm OK with them have 2 supply, but at least put their regen back to what they use to be or add the armor back on . I think theoretically the regen would be much better, and they should evolve in either lair or hive tech like before so they can scale with end game toss and terran(tanks specifically) But Gretorp, yet again this doesn't fit with the zerg theme of massing weak units to have a giant swarm. I guess this is mildly off-topic but it seems to me that the entire theory behind the roach (essentially being a tank unit) doesn't fit with anything in brood war's zerg at all other than the ultralisk which we still have in sc2... IMO the problem with zerg at the moment (and part of the reason they nerfed the roach's food) is the larvae injection at 200/200 supply where zergs get themselves 11 or 15 larvae at each hatchery, suicide their army and immediately have 200/200 supply again in one production cycle. If they fixed this somehow and then concentrated on individual unit balance I feel like we'd have a much better situation.
Even ur next cycle of 200/200 wont kill it T_T
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I agree with orb. Zerg's insane larvae stacking is the problem. Seems pretty easy to fix this without affecting the early/mid game: just limit the max # larvae stacked per hatch.
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On May 20 2010 02:02 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 01:57 Gretorp wrote:
I think roaches will get a buff. I'm OK with them have 2 supply, but at least put their regen back to what they use to be or add the armor back on . I think theoretically the regen would be much better, and they should evolve in either lair or hive tech like before so they can scale with end game toss and terran(tanks specifically) But Gretorp, yet again this doesn't fit with the zerg theme of massing weak units to have a giant swarm. I guess this is mildly off-topic but it seems to me that the entire theory behind the roach (essentially being a tank unit) doesn't fit with anything in brood war's zerg at all other than the ultralisk which we still have in sc2... IMO the problem with zerg at the moment (and part of the reason they nerfed the roach's food) is the larvae injection at 200/200 supply where zergs get themselves 11 or 15 larvae at each hatchery, suicide their army and immediately have 200/200 supply again in one production cycle. If they fixed this somehow and then concentrated on individual unit balance I feel like we'd have a much better situation.
agree they should have nerfed ridiculous larvae injection first before they nerf any units
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A 2 supply tier 1 zerg unit goes against everything that gives zerg their identity.
That's my main problem with it.
The other problem with it is that a zerg 200/200 army is amazingly small compared to what you'd expect.
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It isn't the fact that roaches changed anything, it is a series of events. Zerg late game army is a joke now compared to what it used to be.. and if you were losing to 200/200 roach, do you not know what a marauder is?
Tanks are 3x as strong now thanks to the splash change, and they pretty much 2 shot roaches now in siege. Roaches are still good units, it is just a lot harder to defend attacks as Z now from my experience because you need an extra overlord (larva, and 100 min) for every 3 roaches you make.. which is a bigger change than you might think. (this is not biased either, as I am a P player)
edit:
Late game: There really isn't anything you can do, and you can't blame the unit for being too good when it is in fact the Queen that is making this all possible. Maybe they need to rework the mechanic of the queen, which most likely won't happen... but you can't blame the roach, when there is plenty of effective ways to deal with them.
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My concern over the Roach has nothing to really do with the unit itself or the supply nerf specifically. More so its due to the fact that time and again throughout the entire beta Blizzard continually makes changes in regards to purely statistics, and also continually goes against their own unit design for the game. The roach is supposed to be an easily mass-able early game tanking unit, increase to 2 supply effectively and completely defeats this unit design goal. Having anything over 0 armor goes against this unit design goal. The only way to properly balance the Roach and fit it into its intended role as a unit is to reduce to 1 supply again and nerf the STATS of the unit, make them easier to kill. The 'vision' that Blizzard seemed to have for Zerg play I think is to have Ling/Bling/Roach/Hydra armies where lings surround, blings blow stuff up, roaches take damage, and hydras are the range The roach changes move away from this vision and unit design, and that is why I think 1 supply should be returned.
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EPT
