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Let's all take a step back and ask ourselves, "are we overreacting to this roach nerf?" From my point of view, people are way overreacting to the nerf.
Before the nerf what were Zergs doing in SC2? They were literally spamming roaches up to 200 supply and 1a moving around the map and Z was undisputedly > T for the longest time.
What are Zergs doing in SC2 after the roach nerf? They are still doing the same roach spam, it just now is not "autowin" if the T is not playing as perfect as a god.
Are Zerg players being objective here? Zerg has been imbalanced due to larva inject for many patches versus Terran, and now that Terrans are beginning to stand a chance and win versus Zerg in the late game...everyone is jumping on the "omg roach overnerfed!"
To me it seems like a lot of people are not truly being objective (that includes artosis with his "over-nerfed post").
Yes, Terran mech got stronger versus Zerg, but really to the point where now Terran can win in the late game. Before, a Terran versus Zerg match that went into the late game versus a good Zerg was impossible to win for a good Terran due to larva inject alone. Did Terrans complain much?
ell, I always did because TvZ used to be impossible if you had a defensive macro style  but all Terrans struggled along anyways, doing bio, biomech, thor mech, etc. and now it is possible to win with a macro style versus a macro zerg.
Perhaps Blizzard did not just nerf the roach because it was "too good" but also because it was "too easy." Did anyone ever consider this? In the past years I played cnc heavily, and I think it helps give a bit more perspective sometimes on balance and unit ratios, because when I look at pre-roach nerf games, Z are literally just massing roaches over half of their games - and winning.
You can still mass roaches, but not just roaches. It feels like there has been more Zerg whining about roaches in the past 4 or so days then there has been whining the entire beta, even from Terrans or Protosses.
Zerg cannot just click roach click roach click roach anymore, I am surprised at the amount of SC1 players and "hardcore" that are unused to the concept of having to build other units instead of 1 of a "best unit." Zerg also has burrow that is underused, though more prevalent now finally at top level.
And despite people saying ultra's are bad, they are pretty damn good late game when you get there. Do they need buffs? Yah, probably.
And as for TvZ mech, I am facepalming at everyone's whines. Do you not remember the last few years of SC1 or does all that RTS knowledge go out the window when you're playing a new RTS named SC2?
When mech vs Z started getting popular in proleague and on destination, people were starting to cry, "omg this is unstoppable" until people realized that you cannot play versus mech the same as you would bio. You cannot just try and overpower it and out muscle it.
Out-macroing T mech, counter-dropping into the main, and backstabs, were all very good against T mech in SC1...why are Zergs refusing to do this in SC2?!
Zerg even has the nydus worm available just for that mobility. Zergs right now are not using all their options they can versus Terran mech. And I will just say about the nydus worm, this is one of the most abusive things in the game for Zerg, and Zergs are completely ignoring it and playing stubborn suiciding into the Terran ball.
And you...can build like...many nydus networks!! Abuse it! I expected nydus networks to be heavily nerfed like 5 patches ago, but people still refuse to abuse it like it should be abused, and that's by building a ton of them and networking everywhere on the map.
Especially near the end of mid-game, and start of late-game, and versus something like mech, it is essential, so start using em...start thinking like the SC1 players, and stop thinking like "i wanna mass roach" cnc players.
thoughts?
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While I think talk about the 2 supply change has gotten a little out of hand and a little over the top, then when you look at the other side of things and see that TLO has never lost with his TvZ build you start to realize that maybe things aren't close to balanced anyways.
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Argh, another non-zerg player bs theorycrafting without any replays..
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My main concern is that Zerg is losing their racial identity as the "massing" race. Two roaches out of an egg? Possible larvae abuse.
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I agree that people who switched race because of the latest patch are over reacting, every body knows they should have been at 2 supply from the beginning.
But I believe this nerf comes at the wrong moment, they changed the supply cost only after they nerfed the unit many times in the first patches. I feel they should restore the regen or give them 2 armor now.
Makes me really wonder what the hell they were thinking when they first launched the beta with the original roach in it. It was so strong I can't believe they did not see this in alpha stage.
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
I really believe that the way they changed aoe damage (siege tank, archon) really buffed terran a lot and because of that greatly nerfed zerg. People were just finding out that the siege tank basically rapes everything. I think it was a lot closer to balanced for TvZ before the 'big nerf' on roaches. Really, roaches were not THAT bad balance wise.
A more valid point however is that too many roaches were used. Both in sheer numbers of roaches and number of games. However, the nerf greatly messed up TvZ I feel. The macro style of play is greatly weakened for the zergs, and that is kind of sad. Zerg really needs to fend off the harassment 90%+ or they will fall; they need a pretty big advantage.
Now I think that zergs can adapt if they start doing things differently. Drops/Nydus and good infestor use are both valid opportunities. But the days of just attacking head on for zerg are numberd if it continues like this. They now need sneaky play, which the terran needed before-- basically switching roles.
Kind of sad.
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
And to add to this, I really, really hope they add a unit or two for zerg. This has been discussed countless of times and I'm not trying to derail this thread. But in the state it's in right now, zerg will not be so much fun..
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The only concern I have is their racial identity as a swarm. I can take hit on the health nerf or cost increase, but limiting zergs numbers is hitting under the belt!
Now zerg are bland and kind of boring when they lost this feeling, this is the lone patch that made me switch race, too terran (I love terran now, not going back). And I love your guide Avilo, you are a great player. Something should be done to roaches, but dont just step on zergs toes and identity. Give another unit or buff zerglings late game so zerg can see the swarm feeling (not the respawn feeling, that just suck).
I hope Blizzard does something creative with the zerg.
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I am expecting a roach buff in the next patch, I agree it's like blizz don't really realise the entire implications of their changes..
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On May 20 2010 01:49 Beyonder wrote:
I really believe that the way they changed aoe damage (siege tank, archon) really buffed terran a lot and because of that greatly nerfed zerg. People were just finding out that the siege tank basically rapes everything. I think it was a lot closer to balanced for TvZ before the 'big nerf' on roaches. Really, roaches were not THAT bad balance wise.
A more valid point however is that too many roaches were used. Both in sheer numbers of roaches and number of games. However, the nerf greatly messed up TvZ I feel. The macro style of play is greatly weakened for the zergs, and that is kind of sad. Zerg really needs to fend off the harassment 90%+ or they will fall; they need a pretty big advantage.
Now I think that zergs can adapt if they start doing things differently. Drops/Nydus and good infestor use are both valid opportunities. But the days of just attacking head on for zerg are numberd if it continues like this. They now need sneaky play, which the terran needed before-- basically switching roles.
Kind of sad.
well it is pretty arguable that they were not bad balance wise b4 the patch. There were many games where T would be in a defensive position due to Z massing roaches (still happens now of course) and the T could score 20 drone kills and still be in a losing position because of larva inject and the sheer number of roaches that could make Zergs army count sustain them to get back the drone losses with ease, which made T die from sinking the original money into the harrass that ended up utterly pointless.
and as for harrassment like you mentioned...that is one of my points as well. Pre-patch, Zergs did not need to worry about harrassment so much. They could re-coup the drone losses easily with larva-inject because they already had a huge number of roaches on the field to sustain them if they took any economical damage whatsoever.
Now, exactly like you said, in patch 12 if the same thing occurs, Zerg, just like T and P, are not instantly back in the game if they lose 20+ drones 
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On May 20 2010 01:50 Beyonder wrote:
And to add to this, I really, really hope they add a unit or two for zerg. This has been discussed countless of times and I'm not trying to derail this thread. But in the state it's in right now, zerg will not be so much fun..
I really doubt blizzard will add a new unit at this point of the beta. Zerg needs a new unit, but why add it for free when you can charge people on next expansion? It's sad but true.
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On May 20 2010 01:46 bendez wrote:
Argh, another non-zerg player bs theorycrafting without any replays..
agreed, this is all I see...
Please actually try playing zerg above gold league before saying everything is fine and dandy...
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I think roaches will get a buff. I'm OK with them have 2 supply, but at least put their regen back to what they use to be or add the armor back on . I think theoretically the regen would be much better, and they should evolve in either lair or hive tech like before so they can scale with end game toss and terran(tanks specifically)
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Ur saying we cant ever beat the T army, & have to resort to being lame / backstabbing .
Meh if that would b the solution , i'm quitting z , but i'm gonna try other options then this before i do tho.
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On May 20 2010 01:56 Shiladie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 01:46 bendez wrote:
Argh, another non-zerg player bs theorycrafting without any replays.. agreed, this is all I see... Please actually try playing zerg above gold league before saying everything is fine and dandy...
you guys are pretty adept at trolling. I'm 2k+ on eu server, same on us servers, this is not bs theorycrafting. What it is, is being rational about the changes and looking that Zergs are not abusing everything they have (NYDUS).
If I was an "artosis" or some other figure posting this, you would take it at face value, so try reading and absorbing instead of continuously asking for my replay folder.
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Roach buff ? I'm not sure at all.
But an overall upgrade to ZvT, it is still needed, simply because Zerg don't have a way to properly react to a mech ball. What's positive with the nerf roach IMO is that zerg needs to flank instead of Burrow / Move / Unburrow on tanks.
The nerf of roach in itself was needed, but the fact is it entirely changed the MU against T. Simply because you don't need marauders anymore to counter roaches, at least 3 tanks are sufficient.
Now, flying barracks + hellion + tanks is a joke. A total joke. It's almost insane when it's properly used. The zerg has next to none possibilities, sadly, or only costly or all-in things.
Like many already said that, zerg needs a new unit. More versatility is what's needed right now.
BTW, I approve that this topic is not a joke. Of course, many are overreacting simply because they loved roaches, and still want to love them. But right now, it's not a roach problem, it's a balance problem.
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On May 20 2010 01:58 zionman wrote:
Ur saying we cant ever beat the T army, & have to resort to being lame / backstabbing .
Meh if that would b the solution , i'm quitting z , but i'm gonna try other options then this before i do tho.
I would suggest you never go back to playing Brood war then, because versus Terran mech in brood war guess what little jimmmy? That is exactly what you have to do. You have to drop, macro your economy and chip away at the ball instead of trying to blunt force trauma it.
did you ever play SC1?
edit: oh, and MUTAS, LOTS OF THEM!
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I think the problem is more in the early game than the late game. Its harder to defend the all in rushes that were already almost impossible to defend (warp gate rushes, especially on small maps). Mid and late game doesn't really appear to be a problem since players can just mass hydra brood lord and it pretty much makes up for the lack of roaches.
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On May 20 2010 01:54 bendez wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 01:50 Beyonder wrote:
And to add to this, I really, really hope they add a unit or two for zerg. This has been discussed countless of times and I'm not trying to derail this thread. But in the state it's in right now, zerg will not be so much fun.. I really doubt blizzard will add a new unit at this point of the beta. Zerg needs a new unit, but why add it for free when you can charge people on next expansion? It's sad but true.
I had this one idea once for a moment is that theyre going to give out the game with the galaxy editor and they expect people to actually make adjustments to the units and see what kind of ideas are being made. Then, once an expansion is going to get out they simply look at what ideas seem to be the most balanced and fun and implement them.
That said, the possible unit ideas is limited and not limitless and its bound to happen that one of the ideas has a lot in common with what blizzard will do. It also happened to left 4 dead 2, where people were claiming that some of the new special infected were exact copies of their ideas. Some of these ideas were actually never posted on the forums (funny) and some even claimed they deserved credit for it (funnier).
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i agree with the nydus part i use them in most of my game, they are soo powerful, for example when ur enemy start to move his army to go to ur base, just put a nydus in his base and the time he come to yours (or he retreat) u kill him like 1/3% of his base.
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On May 20 2010 01:57 Gretorp wrote:
I think roaches will get a buff. I'm OK with them have 2 supply, but at least put their regen back to what they use to be or add the armor back on . I think theoretically the regen would be much better, and they should evolve in either lair or hive tech like before so they can scale with end game toss and terran(tanks specifically)
But Gretorp, yet again this doesn't fit with the zerg theme of massing weak units to have a giant swarm.
I guess this is mildly off-topic but it seems to me that the entire theory behind the roach (essentially being a tank unit) doesn't fit with anything in brood war's zerg at all other than the ultralisk which we still have in sc2...
IMO the problem with zerg at the moment (and part of the reason they nerfed the roach's food) is the larvae injection at 200/200 supply where zergs get themselves 11 or 15 larvae at each hatchery, suicide their army and immediately have 200/200 supply again in one production cycle. If they fixed this somehow and then concentrated on individual unit balance I feel like we'd have a much better situation.
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On May 20 2010 01:41 -orb- wrote:
While I think talk about the 2 supply change has gotten a little out of hand and a little over the top, then when you look at the other side of things and see that TLO has never lost with his TvZ build you start to realize that maybe things aren't close to balanced anyways.
But then again, maybe TLO is just really really good?
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On May 20 2010 01:58 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 01:56 Shiladie wrote:On May 20 2010 01:46 bendez wrote:
Argh, another non-zerg player bs theorycrafting without any replays.. agreed, this is all I see... Please actually try playing zerg above gold league before saying everything is fine and dandy... you guys are pretty adept at trolling. I'm 2k+ on eu server, same on us servers, this is not bs theorycrafting. What it is, is being rational about the changes and looking that Zergs are not abusing everything they have (NYDUS). If I was an "artosis" or some other figure posting this, you would take it at face value, so try reading and absorbing instead of continuously asking for my replay folder.
right now your word is simply backed by your post count, nothing else, provide replays like the forum REQUIRES and you will be taken seriously, right now I could spout off about how terrans would win 100% of the time if they just fast teched to BCs and be just as credible as you are being right now...
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Imo just wait till they buff ultras and then you have your lategame beef.
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On May 20 2010 01:58 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 01:56 Shiladie wrote:On May 20 2010 01:46 bendez wrote:
Argh, another non-zerg player bs theorycrafting without any replays.. agreed, this is all I see... Please actually try playing zerg above gold league before saying everything is fine and dandy... you guys are pretty adept at trolling. I'm 2k+ on eu server, same on us servers, this is not bs theorycrafting. What it is, is being rational about the changes and looking that Zergs are not abusing everything they have (NYDUS). If I was an "artosis" or some other figure posting this, you would take it at face value, so try reading and absorbing instead of continuously asking for my replay folder.
nydus is 300 freaking gas and ...you know what? I'm not even gonna bother.
Seriously, isn't this what you admins call "bs theorycrafting without any replays"?
If not, I got tons of idea for protoss, how mothership + carriers are valid options /sarc
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If you compare the roach and the marauder now, marauders with concussive grenades are infinitely better than roaches with regen.
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I'm a ~2000 Zerg player and since the nerf I avoid roaches like the plague. It's really hard as a zerg to get a decent army out of your 200 supplies. I lose many games being 2-3 expos up but getting stomped in the 200/200 battle vs Terrans. With the small maps, it's gg after that. Hydra/Baneline/Ling, even with Infestors, is pretty even with pure Marauder/Rine/Medivac/(Tanks). Roaches are just a total waste at 200. You can use their speed to try to harass the Terran (on big maps, fu Blizzard) but you better not bring any to the big fight.
On May 20 2010 02:02 -orb- wrote:
IMO the problem with zerg at the moment (and part of the reason they nerfed the roach's food) is the larvae injection at 200/200 supply where zergs get themselves 11 or 15 larvae at each hatchery, suicide their army and immediately have 200/200 supply again in one production cycle. If they fixed this somehow and then concentrated on individual unit balance I feel like we'd have a much better situation.
That might be somewhat true on Metalopolis and LT, but on all other maps, once Zerg loses their army, they are dead. You will never get a chance to gather your army afterwards on all the other maps.
As Bey said, Zerg has to pull of something like drops/nydus or get lucky with catching the Terran off guard to win. If you just play solid macro, even if you fend off the early harass well and have map control for a long time, you probably lose.
I often feel like the only way to win vs the Terran ball is to switch to Mutas instead of Hydras, but Thors are so extremely good against them it's not really viable.
Basically: gj Blizzard not including more big maps during the Beta (which is pretty much over, to all the "it's only Beta!"-criers).
Now I wonder why I made this post if this thread is getting closed anyway.
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On May 20 2010 02:02 -orb- wrote:
IMO the problem with zerg at the moment (and part of the reason they nerfed the roach's food) is the larvae injection at 200/200 supply where zergs get themselves 11 or 15 larvae at each hatchery, suicide their army and immediately have 200/200 supply again in one production cycle. If they fixed this somehow and then concentrated on individual unit balance I feel like we'd have a much better situation.
This requires that you let the Zerg pile up a lot of resources while he is sitting pretty at 200/200.
I would presume if that's the case, maybe you are being a little too turtle-ish?
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On May 20 2010 02:02 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 01:57 Gretorp wrote:
I think roaches will get a buff. I'm OK with them have 2 supply, but at least put their regen back to what they use to be or add the armor back on . I think theoretically the regen would be much better, and they should evolve in either lair or hive tech like before so they can scale with end game toss and terran(tanks specifically) But Gretorp, yet again this doesn't fit with the zerg theme of massing weak units to have a giant swarm. I guess this is mildly off-topic but it seems to me that the entire theory behind the roach (essentially being a tank unit) doesn't fit with anything in brood war's zerg at all other than the ultralisk which we still have in sc2... IMO the problem with zerg at the moment (and part of the reason they nerfed the roach's food) is the larvae injection at 200/200 supply where zergs get themselves 11 or 15 larvae at each hatchery, suicide their army and immediately have 200/200 supply again in one production cycle. If they fixed this somehow and then concentrated on individual unit balance I feel like we'd have a much better situation.
yep, that is the larva inject strength i'm talking about too. Late game Zerg is just insanely scary, but now patch 12 it seems people are up in arms (especially about TvZ), that if a T maintains his army he does not instantly die to 1a roaches -> re-max 200/200(which there would be twice as many of pre-patch).
yes, it is hard to play versus mech, but just like in SC1, most Z are not playing versus it correctly.
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On May 20 2010 02:04 Lollersauce wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 02:02 -orb- wrote:
IMO the problem with zerg at the moment (and part of the reason they nerfed the roach's food) is the larvae injection at 200/200 supply where zergs get themselves 11 or 15 larvae at each hatchery, suicide their army and immediately have 200/200 supply again in one production cycle. If they fixed this somehow and then concentrated on individual unit balance I feel like we'd have a much better situation. This requires that you let the Zerg pile up a lot of resources while he is sitting pretty at 200/200. I would presume if that's the case, maybe you are being a little too turtle-ish?
This is what every good zerg player is doing... they get to 200/200 and then just sit around expanding. If you attack them and trade armies it'll take you ages to recreate your army while zerg will instantly be at 200/200 again.
It's not about me. I'm not being turtlish. I'm not a terran player... it's from what I'm seeing in high level games.
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On May 20 2010 02:04 bendez wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 01:58 avilo wrote:On May 20 2010 01:56 Shiladie wrote:On May 20 2010 01:46 bendez wrote:
Argh, another non-zerg player bs theorycrafting without any replays.. agreed, this is all I see... Please actually try playing zerg above gold league before saying everything is fine and dandy... you guys are pretty adept at trolling. I'm 2k+ on eu server, same on us servers, this is not bs theorycrafting. What it is, is being rational about the changes and looking that Zergs are not abusing everything they have (NYDUS). If I was an "artosis" or some other figure posting this, you would take it at face value, so try reading and absorbing instead of continuously asking for my replay folder. nydus is 300 freaking gas and ...you know what? I'm not even gonna bother. Seriously, isn't this what you admins call "bs theorycrafting without any replays"? If not, I got tons of idea for protoss, how mothership + carriers are valid options /sarc
People should really stop trolling about "post ur replay pack." If you want me to post a few games from my own, I will gladly, but you should go ask other top T's like morrow and whoever the hell else to post some games - you will have no such luck probably because many feel they have to "hide" their build orders or something silly like that.
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On May 20 2010 01:58 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 01:56 Shiladie wrote:On May 20 2010 01:46 bendez wrote:
Argh, another non-zerg player bs theorycrafting without any replays.. agreed, this is all I see... Please actually try playing zerg above gold league before saying everything is fine and dandy... you guys are pretty adept at trolling. I'm 2k+ on eu server, same on us servers, this is not bs theorycrafting. What it is, is being rational about the changes and looking that Zergs are not abusing everything they have (NYDUS). If I was an "artosis" or some other figure posting this, you would take it at face value, so try reading and absorbing instead of continuously asking for my replay folder.
It costs 100/100 and takes 20 seconds for a Nydus Worm to spawn. And units only pop out one at a time. Due to the quantity of time it takes to build, you simply cannot use this as a direct means of attack. Unless the opponent is a total n00b, putting it in an opponent's base will result in losing 100 gas, at a minimum.
Given this fact, what exactly is it that you expect Zergs to "abuse" with Nydus Worms? The most you can really do is use it to move your army without the enemy seeing it (and without possibility of being intercepted).
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On May 20 2010 02:00 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 01:58 zionman wrote:
Ur saying we cant ever beat the T army, & have to resort to being lame / backstabbing .
Meh if that would b the solution , i'm quitting z , but i'm gonna try other options then this before i do tho. I would suggest you never go back to playing Brood war then, because versus Terran mech in brood war guess what little jimmmy? That is exactly what you have to do. You have to drop, macro your economy and chip away at the ball instead of trying to blunt force trauma it. did you ever play SC1? edit: oh, and MUTAS, LOTS OF THEM!
U never listened to those day 9 podcasts then, he said mass units of zerglings & hydralisks.
& i found i did pretty well vs mech compared to sc2
Where i lose 200/200 vs terran & before he is at my base i'm back up to 178 ( due having entiure half of my map) but i lose all those units again ;;;
Spawn larva didnt save me there :'(
I'm just flustered about " how do you chip away at the ball by dropping his base when he moves out 200/200 "
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I've always played zerg until the roach nerf. then i discovered how good terran is vs zerg. I just did 1 base M&M&M a click t click winO_o
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On May 20 2010 02:02 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 01:57 Gretorp wrote:
I think roaches will get a buff. I'm OK with them have 2 supply, but at least put their regen back to what they use to be or add the armor back on . I think theoretically the regen would be much better, and they should evolve in either lair or hive tech like before so they can scale with end game toss and terran(tanks specifically) But Gretorp, yet again this doesn't fit with the zerg theme of massing weak units to have a giant swarm. I guess this is mildly off-topic but it seems to me that the entire theory behind the roach (essentially being a tank unit) doesn't fit with anything in brood war's zerg at all other than the ultralisk which we still have in sc2... IMO the problem with zerg at the moment (and part of the reason they nerfed the roach's food) is the larvae injection at 200/200 supply where zergs get themselves 11 or 15 larvae at each hatchery, suicide their army and immediately have 200/200 supply again in one production cycle. If they fixed this somehow and then concentrated on individual unit balance I feel like we'd have a much better situation.
Even ur next cycle of 200/200 wont kill it T_T
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I agree with orb. Zerg's insane larvae stacking is the problem. Seems pretty easy to fix this without affecting the early/mid game: just limit the max # larvae stacked per hatch.
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On May 20 2010 02:02 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 01:57 Gretorp wrote:
I think roaches will get a buff. I'm OK with them have 2 supply, but at least put their regen back to what they use to be or add the armor back on . I think theoretically the regen would be much better, and they should evolve in either lair or hive tech like before so they can scale with end game toss and terran(tanks specifically) But Gretorp, yet again this doesn't fit with the zerg theme of massing weak units to have a giant swarm. I guess this is mildly off-topic but it seems to me that the entire theory behind the roach (essentially being a tank unit) doesn't fit with anything in brood war's zerg at all other than the ultralisk which we still have in sc2... IMO the problem with zerg at the moment (and part of the reason they nerfed the roach's food) is the larvae injection at 200/200 supply where zergs get themselves 11 or 15 larvae at each hatchery, suicide their army and immediately have 200/200 supply again in one production cycle. If they fixed this somehow and then concentrated on individual unit balance I feel like we'd have a much better situation.
agree they should have nerfed ridiculous larvae injection first before they nerf any units
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A 2 supply tier 1 zerg unit goes against everything that gives zerg their identity.
That's my main problem with it.
The other problem with it is that a zerg 200/200 army is amazingly small compared to what you'd expect.
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It isn't the fact that roaches changed anything, it is a series of events. Zerg late game army is a joke now compared to what it used to be.. and if you were losing to 200/200 roach, do you not know what a marauder is?
Tanks are 3x as strong now thanks to the splash change, and they pretty much 2 shot roaches now in siege. Roaches are still good units, it is just a lot harder to defend attacks as Z now from my experience because you need an extra overlord (larva, and 100 min) for every 3 roaches you make.. which is a bigger change than you might think. (this is not biased either, as I am a P player)
edit:
Late game: There really isn't anything you can do, and you can't blame the unit for being too good when it is in fact the Queen that is making this all possible. Maybe they need to rework the mechanic of the queen, which most likely won't happen... but you can't blame the roach, when there is plenty of effective ways to deal with them.
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My concern over the Roach has nothing to really do with the unit itself or the supply nerf specifically. More so its due to the fact that time and again throughout the entire beta Blizzard continually makes changes in regards to purely statistics, and also continually goes against their own unit design for the game. The roach is supposed to be an easily mass-able early game tanking unit, increase to 2 supply effectively and completely defeats this unit design goal. Having anything over 0 armor goes against this unit design goal. The only way to properly balance the Roach and fit it into its intended role as a unit is to reduce to 1 supply again and nerf the STATS of the unit, make them easier to kill. The 'vision' that Blizzard seemed to have for Zerg play I think is to have Ling/Bling/Roach/Hydra armies where lings surround, blings blow stuff up, roaches take damage, and hydras are the range The roach changes move away from this vision and unit design, and that is why I think 1 supply should be returned.
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On May 20 2010 02:07 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 02:04 bendez wrote:On May 20 2010 01:58 avilo wrote:On May 20 2010 01:56 Shiladie wrote:On May 20 2010 01:46 bendez wrote:
Argh, another non-zerg player bs theorycrafting without any replays.. agreed, this is all I see... Please actually try playing zerg above gold league before saying everything is fine and dandy... you guys are pretty adept at trolling. I'm 2k+ on eu server, same on us servers, this is not bs theorycrafting. What it is, is being rational about the changes and looking that Zergs are not abusing everything they have (NYDUS). If I was an "artosis" or some other figure posting this, you would take it at face value, so try reading and absorbing instead of continuously asking for my replay folder. nydus is 300 freaking gas and ...you know what? I'm not even gonna bother. Seriously, isn't this what you admins call "bs theorycrafting without any replays"? If not, I got tons of idea for protoss, how mothership + carriers are valid options /sarc People should really stop trolling about "post ur replay pack." If you want me to post a few games from my own, I will gladly, but you should go ask other top T's like morrow and whoever the hell else to post some games - you will have no such luck probably because many feel they have to "hide" their build orders or something silly like that.
You are the troll here. Theorycrafting without any replays to prove it.
You got tons of replays where zerg owned you using clever usage of nydus? post it. Really, what's stopping you?
Oh and in recent game on MorroW vs MoMan, MorroW admitted that terran mech is op against zerg.
Sigh these damn trolls. Admins really should close this thread.
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On May 20 2010 02:14 bendez wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 02:07 avilo wrote:On May 20 2010 02:04 bendez wrote:On May 20 2010 01:58 avilo wrote:On May 20 2010 01:56 Shiladie wrote:On May 20 2010 01:46 bendez wrote:
Argh, another non-zerg player bs theorycrafting without any replays.. agreed, this is all I see... Please actually try playing zerg above gold league before saying everything is fine and dandy... you guys are pretty adept at trolling. I'm 2k+ on eu server, same on us servers, this is not bs theorycrafting. What it is, is being rational about the changes and looking that Zergs are not abusing everything they have (NYDUS). If I was an "artosis" or some other figure posting this, you would take it at face value, so try reading and absorbing instead of continuously asking for my replay folder. nydus is 300 freaking gas and ...you know what? I'm not even gonna bother. Seriously, isn't this what you admins call "bs theorycrafting without any replays"? If not, I got tons of idea for protoss, how mothership + carriers are valid options /sarc People should really stop trolling about "post ur replay pack." If you want me to post a few games from my own, I will gladly, but you should go ask other top T's like morrow and whoever the hell else to post some games - you will have no such luck probably because many feel they have to "hide" their build orders or something silly like that. You are the troll here. Theorycrafting without any replays to prove it. You got tons of replays where zerg owned you using clever usage of nydus? post it. Really, what's stopping you? Oh and in recent game on MorroW vs MoMan, MorroW admitted that terran mech is op against zerg. Sigh these damn trolls. Admins really should close this thread.
stop asking for a replay pack.
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If terran plays defensively with mech, it is extremely difficult to beat them once they get to 125-150 supply. At that point the roach 2 supply disadvantage kicks in, and you are left with almost nothing that can beat the terran mech ball except for broodlords. And most good terrans can push your base before you get broodlords.
If you use roach you need to get burrow and harass terran and not let him build up a mass of tanks/4+ thors/hellions. It can work, but it's a totaly uphill battle the entire time. And once terrans learn to get turrets/scan/ravens at the right time, I think the roach will no longer be viable against terran mech, and zerg will have nothing except try and stop the push until they can get to broodlords (not sure if that's the correct balance or not)
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Hey guys I like dat I don't lose to zerg now I think theyre fine. I could play them to see for myself but I'd rather just argue with every zerg player about how they don't play their race correctly.
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@avilo
You're the one making a claim here and people are asking that you show proof which backs that claim. It's not unreasonable for them to ask that you post a few replays proving your point. Also, as far as I'm aware, it's part of the SC2 forum rules that you do if you're discussing issues of balance.
People are not simply going to sit there and take you at your word. If Artosis said something along the same lines, people would probably ask him for examples to show his point and I would assume he'd be able to show games that do.
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The real issue isn't that Roaches are more expensive now, and the smaller lategame army is nothing but a balance problem. However the current Zerg design is flawed.
- Zerg is about masses of units. Nerfing the roach but keeping the supply cost low is the better choice purely because of the racial identity.
- Spawn Larva is extremely powerful. If many Zerg units are strong and high in cost/supply, then Zerg needs less larvae. That makes Spawn Larva even more ridiculous. The only units that really are expensive in terms of larvae are drones and zerglings. 2 Banelings cost as much as 1 Hydralisk (except for 1 supply), so they are pretty light on larvae.
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Well, to say that I'm disappointed in blizzard for this change would be an understatement.
Now can someone tell me - without roaches being viable, how do you heat marine/siegetank?
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I am sure Zerg will be more than fine vs TLO's excellent TvZ fast expo mech after Ultralisks are buffed. But even then I still don't think it's as one sides as many people think. It has only been less than two weeks since the roach nerf for crying out loud.
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If you want me to post a few games from my own, I will gladly. -avilo
stop asking for a replay pack. -avilo
-_-...
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One side of me says it forces unit diversity and more lair tech units other than mindless roach spam (cause thats wat was happening). Kinda like in BW where after terran gets like 8 marines nothing below lair tech is going to touch, which forces zerg to get lair quickly. Another part of me however says "holy shit tvz is so fucking easy for me now and theres almost no early game threat other than some cheesy all in ling strat"
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On May 20 2010 01:59 Maggeus wrote:
Roach buff ? I'm not sure at all.
But an overall upgrade to ZvT, it is still needed, simply because Zerg don't have a way to properly react to a mech ball. What's positive with the nerf roach IMO is that zerg needs to flank instead of Burrow / Move / Unburrow on tanks.
The nerf of roach in itself was needed, but the fact is it entirely changed the MU against T. Simply because you don't need marauders anymore to counter roaches, at least 3 tanks are sufficient.
Now, flying barracks + hellion + tanks is a joke. A total joke. It's almost insane when it's properly used. The zerg has next to none possibilities, sadly, or only costly or all-in things.
Like many already said that, zerg needs a new unit. More versatility is what's needed right now.
BTW, I approve that this topic is not a joke. Of course, many are overreacting simply because they loved roaches, and still want to love them. But right now, it's not a roach problem, it's a balance problem.
Good think tanks and hellions attack mutas.
Avilo I agree with you greatly, I think a lot of the people going in rage-mode are the ones who really don't use infestors to their fullest potential. It's amazing what a group of hydra/lings/infestors can do to most Terran army makeups. Not to mention the early muta harass work wonders vs a terran who thinks roach/hydra after a scan.
Remember Zerg till hold major macro advantages, and they get all their units w/ overpowered larva injection from hatches. Terran have to build multiple starports/facts/rax just to keep up w/ army replenishment.
And my last post kind off topic but, I love how the tables have turned lol. Before it was the zergies telling us terran to learn how to play above gold, now it's our turn ^^
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So, how do you explain two of the top korean Zerg players switching from Z to T after the latest patch?
You theorycraft and refuse to post any replays to back up your claims when someone calls you out for it.
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On May 20 2010 02:23 StayFrosty wrote:
Well, to say that I'm disappointed in blizzard for this change would be an understatement.
Now can someone tell me - without roaches being viable, how do you heat marine/siegetank?
Perhaps it's not that zerg is underpowered but that terran is overpowered?
Just a thought since everyone seems to be seeing it from one side
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hum... thinking back at what Day9 said, I would say something like this: overreact? yes. tougher to make good use of roach? yes but not impossible. Screwing up pro's BO? yes, but they can adapt :3 useless? nope.
and you should look at asian servers' zerg: they abuse nydus worm :3
I strongly suggest watching day9 daily and the euro vs asia tournament.
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On May 20 2010 02:00 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 01:58 zionman wrote:
Ur saying we cant ever beat the T army, & have to resort to being lame / backstabbing .
Meh if that would b the solution , i'm quitting z , but i'm gonna try other options then this before i do tho. I would suggest you never go back to playing Brood war then, because versus Terran mech in brood war guess what little jimmmy? That is exactly what you have to do. You have to drop, macro your economy and chip away at the ball instead of trying to blunt force trauma it. did you ever play SC1? edit: oh, and MUTAS, LOTS OF THEM!
coming from the guy who has been saying zerg is so imba vs T and T can't win. Another note is this is not Bw this is sc2.
Roaches do need some sort of buff as of right now the 2 population with no buff to compensate it has made zerg struggle in zvt. Zvt has gone downhill to where its hard to win like insanely hard so there needs to be a change for this whether you agree with it or not.
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Siege Tank/Marauder was all a Terran ever needed for ground superiority against Zerg. Even before the roach nerf.
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i'm sure if we ask SEn real nice, he'll be able to provide a few asia-nydus-replays.
drops are being re-discovered right now: for now people are just looking at banelings but once zerg got used to it (again), there's bound to be more - with overlords dumping creep and all that.
but yes, artosis' conclusion of "streamlined learning" and thereby implying that zerg are further ahead, possibly at their peak is nothing short of pompous and this arrogance is the beginning of the end.
to then blame it on unit diversity, roaches or whatever excuse you might come up with is just weak.
i am by no means a fanboi of blizzards but zergs these days are making things too easy for the "it's fine" posters
On May 20 2010 02:35 blade55555 wrote:Roaches do need some sort of buff as of right now the 2 population with no buff to compensate
"to compensate"...?
this would imply that it was a balanced unit before. it simply wasn't. this wasn't some flavor change to mix things up a bit - it was a nerf where a nerf was due.
but yes, i hope marauders and void rays get their nerf bat clubbing as well
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I played CnC as well, the most competitive title of all was by far Red Alert 2, most balanced, and it boiled down to both sides just tank rushing all game pretty much.
But it was still fun and challenging. Trying to say that massing one unit cannot be fun or challenging requires you to realize how some people find checkers really fun.
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The only thing I do vs T now is go muta's blindly, its the only thing I can do to make him uneasy now.
As I've said in another thread, Once terran gets a few thor, a few tanks, a few hellions and a few vikings, they counter anything the zerg tech tree has to offer.
Tanks > hydra's, banelings, Ultralisks, zerglings, roaches at a huge range.
Hellions > zerglings if they even manage to get close.
Thor + Viking > muta's , corruptors and broodlords. And Ultralisks when you use the 250 mm cannons.
Don't even think about throwing the infestor in the mix, not only do the tanks OBLITERATE them completely, a fungal growth won't do anything against a siegetank army that is stationairy anyway. A neural parasite can't land because it dies before it is in range.
The one powerful thing terran has is range, something which the zerg lacks. This is why a good mechball can just erase the map of zerg stuff.
An overlord drop will easily be spotted when the terran is turteling, and a nydus takes a whopping 20 seconds to even pop, with 200 health, giving you way more than enough time to spot and kill it with your scv's.
Needless to say I'm looking forward to the overseer and infestor changes, maybe they will allow the zerg to get up close and personal with a mech army.
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Nydus is countered too easily to always be used.
Any terran worth their salt can just patrol 2-3 marines around their base while they push out, and there ya go, its nydus proof. 200 hp is too little, any unit basically can take it out in the 20 seconds it takes to pop up.
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to be honest. in your opinion im overreacting. i think thats not nice to say. i was really worried about mechanics. because when you look at the roles of the races now you see: terran can mass very hard and zerg uses big, expensive units. terran has good abilitys to macro up and harass, while zerg should better play defensive, to not be outmicroed (talking about reaperharass, hellionharass, bansheeharass). i think toss is the real race, which still uses its style from broodwar. everything else changed dramatically. i used today the nydus, also mass roaches, mass hydras and ling/baneling combo. some tactics failed, some didnt. i still won with the roachnerf very costeffective. the enemy couldnt do anything. my baneling, ling combo failed hard, due to wall-in toss (why i wanted to use banelings) with fast voidrays. there are some things, that really should have been changed and the not massing mechanics from the roach really dont fit into zerg-playstyle, you must admit
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This thread is awesome. Avilo is in my plat league and used to be #1, so I definitely respect his terran skills. Our league is very strong compared to most, so that is saying something.
However, have you guys seen the recent Day[9] cast about TLO's build versus zerg? It is just one example of high-level play where the zerg player gets rolled by a primarily mech-based build.
I honestly agree with Blizzard's thinking in a way, despite also thinking that the patch was way too much of a nerf. Assuming high level TvZ is heavily unbalanced in T's favor now, they will presumably reflect on that information and react accordingly next time. You don't learn how to fix the game unless you try something at any rate. Two-supply roach was just the first thing they decided to test.
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United States17042 Posts
In addition to the larvae inject, the other problem is that there isn't any decision that goes along with it (the same thing that iirc nony was saying, as well as archerofaiur). Larvae inject should be capped, but if there was an option for z's to do something else, they might not just store up larvae.
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tbh 2 supply means very little to me, i use roaches as a deffence to tech up to hydras and then have like 5-12 roaches as a small little wall for my hydras.
besides, ppl who just mass roaches are nubs.
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On May 20 2010 02:02 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 01:57 Gretorp wrote:
I think roaches will get a buff. I'm OK with them have 2 supply, but at least put their regen back to what they use to be or add the armor back on . I think theoretically the regen would be much better, and they should evolve in either lair or hive tech like before so they can scale with end game toss and terran(tanks specifically) But Gretorp, yet again this doesn't fit with the zerg theme of massing weak units to have a giant swarm. I guess this is mildly off-topic but it seems to me that the entire theory behind the roach (essentially being a tank unit) doesn't fit with anything in brood war's zerg at all other than the ultralisk which we still have in sc2... IMO the problem with zerg at the moment (and part of the reason they nerfed the roach's food) is the larvae injection at 200/200 supply where zergs get themselves 11 or 15 larvae at each hatchery, suicide their army and immediately have 200/200 supply again in one production cycle. If they fixed this somehow and then concentrated on individual unit balance I feel like we'd have a much better situation.
yeah you're right about the characteristics of z, i completely forgot about their theme. This is so tough.
THey can't take out larva inject b/c it will change dynamics too much of Z. Blizzard put so much time into larva mechanics, to got without them would be forsaking tons of work they've done. I don't think the larva inject is a huge problem. It needs to be altered a bit, but I do agree that zerg end game is quite hard to transition to.
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If anything it is simply maps to blame. In SC1 playing against mech was the same deal, except there was no larvae mechanic to save your ass when your hydras and mutas were taken out by tank + goliath. It is the maps, terran mech arrive at your front door in no time; thereby, reducing the number one problem with mech play - mobility.
Additionally, because of the doodads in the environment, flanking has become nearly non existant and instead all we have is a series of chokes. Vs mech will be alot easier to play with distances are long and flanks are a viable option.
Hence, I'm interested in how blizzard will include user generated maps in their ladder mappool and not have it turn into a imbalanced joke like WC3.
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Zerg 200/200 is supposed to be extremely strong but difficult to get. Zerg is supposed to have many relatively costy units that have low hp and supply usage for their cost(For instance, SCBW Hydralisk). Zerg's supposed to be the strongest race 200/200. SC2 just ruins the entire concept.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Yes, you are all overreacting. Blog it.
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EPT
