|
Let's all take a step back and ask ourselves, "are we overreacting to this roach nerf?" From my point of view, people are way overreacting to the nerf.
Before the nerf what were Zergs doing in SC2? They were literally spamming roaches up to 200 supply and 1a moving around the map and Z was undisputedly > T for the longest time.
What are Zergs doing in SC2 after the roach nerf? They are still doing the same roach spam, it just now is not "autowin" if the T is not playing as perfect as a god.
Are Zerg players being objective here? Zerg has been imbalanced due to larva inject for many patches versus Terran, and now that Terrans are beginning to stand a chance and win versus Zerg in the late game...everyone is jumping on the "omg roach overnerfed!"
To me it seems like a lot of people are not truly being objective (that includes artosis with his "over-nerfed post").
Yes, Terran mech got stronger versus Zerg, but really to the point where now Terran can win in the late game. Before, a Terran versus Zerg match that went into the late game versus a good Zerg was impossible to win for a good Terran due to larva inject alone. Did Terrans complain much?
ell, I always did because TvZ used to be impossible if you had a defensive macro style  but all Terrans struggled along anyways, doing bio, biomech, thor mech, etc. and now it is possible to win with a macro style versus a macro zerg.
Perhaps Blizzard did not just nerf the roach because it was "too good" but also because it was "too easy." Did anyone ever consider this? In the past years I played cnc heavily, and I think it helps give a bit more perspective sometimes on balance and unit ratios, because when I look at pre-roach nerf games, Z are literally just massing roaches over half of their games - and winning.
You can still mass roaches, but not just roaches. It feels like there has been more Zerg whining about roaches in the past 4 or so days then there has been whining the entire beta, even from Terrans or Protosses.
Zerg cannot just click roach click roach click roach anymore, I am surprised at the amount of SC1 players and "hardcore" that are unused to the concept of having to build other units instead of 1 of a "best unit." Zerg also has burrow that is underused, though more prevalent now finally at top level.
And despite people saying ultra's are bad, they are pretty damn good late game when you get there. Do they need buffs? Yah, probably.
And as for TvZ mech, I am facepalming at everyone's whines. Do you not remember the last few years of SC1 or does all that RTS knowledge go out the window when you're playing a new RTS named SC2?
When mech vs Z started getting popular in proleague and on destination, people were starting to cry, "omg this is unstoppable" until people realized that you cannot play versus mech the same as you would bio. You cannot just try and overpower it and out muscle it.
Out-macroing T mech, counter-dropping into the main, and backstabs, were all very good against T mech in SC1...why are Zergs refusing to do this in SC2?!
Zerg even has the nydus worm available just for that mobility. Zergs right now are not using all their options they can versus Terran mech. And I will just say about the nydus worm, this is one of the most abusive things in the game for Zerg, and Zergs are completely ignoring it and playing stubborn suiciding into the Terran ball.
And you...can build like...many nydus networks!! Abuse it! I expected nydus networks to be heavily nerfed like 5 patches ago, but people still refuse to abuse it like it should be abused, and that's by building a ton of them and networking everywhere on the map.
Especially near the end of mid-game, and start of late-game, and versus something like mech, it is essential, so start using em...start thinking like the SC1 players, and stop thinking like "i wanna mass roach" cnc players.
thoughts?
|
While I think talk about the 2 supply change has gotten a little out of hand and a little over the top, then when you look at the other side of things and see that TLO has never lost with his TvZ build you start to realize that maybe things aren't close to balanced anyways.
|
Argh, another non-zerg player bs theorycrafting without any replays..
|
My main concern is that Zerg is losing their racial identity as the "massing" race. Two roaches out of an egg? Possible larvae abuse.
|
I agree that people who switched race because of the latest patch are over reacting, every body knows they should have been at 2 supply from the beginning.
But I believe this nerf comes at the wrong moment, they changed the supply cost only after they nerfed the unit many times in the first patches. I feel they should restore the regen or give them 2 armor now.
Makes me really wonder what the hell they were thinking when they first launched the beta with the original roach in it. It was so strong I can't believe they did not see this in alpha stage.
|
Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
I really believe that the way they changed aoe damage (siege tank, archon) really buffed terran a lot and because of that greatly nerfed zerg. People were just finding out that the siege tank basically rapes everything. I think it was a lot closer to balanced for TvZ before the 'big nerf' on roaches. Really, roaches were not THAT bad balance wise.
A more valid point however is that too many roaches were used. Both in sheer numbers of roaches and number of games. However, the nerf greatly messed up TvZ I feel. The macro style of play is greatly weakened for the zergs, and that is kind of sad. Zerg really needs to fend off the harassment 90%+ or they will fall; they need a pretty big advantage.
Now I think that zergs can adapt if they start doing things differently. Drops/Nydus and good infestor use are both valid opportunities. But the days of just attacking head on for zerg are numberd if it continues like this. They now need sneaky play, which the terran needed before-- basically switching roles.
Kind of sad.
|
Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
And to add to this, I really, really hope they add a unit or two for zerg. This has been discussed countless of times and I'm not trying to derail this thread. But in the state it's in right now, zerg will not be so much fun..
|
The only concern I have is their racial identity as a swarm. I can take hit on the health nerf or cost increase, but limiting zergs numbers is hitting under the belt!
Now zerg are bland and kind of boring when they lost this feeling, this is the lone patch that made me switch race, too terran (I love terran now, not going back). And I love your guide Avilo, you are a great player. Something should be done to roaches, but dont just step on zergs toes and identity. Give another unit or buff zerglings late game so zerg can see the swarm feeling (not the respawn feeling, that just suck).
I hope Blizzard does something creative with the zerg.
|
I am expecting a roach buff in the next patch, I agree it's like blizz don't really realise the entire implications of their changes..
|
On May 20 2010 01:49 Beyonder wrote:
I really believe that the way they changed aoe damage (siege tank, archon) really buffed terran a lot and because of that greatly nerfed zerg. People were just finding out that the siege tank basically rapes everything. I think it was a lot closer to balanced for TvZ before the 'big nerf' on roaches. Really, roaches were not THAT bad balance wise.
A more valid point however is that too many roaches were used. Both in sheer numbers of roaches and number of games. However, the nerf greatly messed up TvZ I feel. The macro style of play is greatly weakened for the zergs, and that is kind of sad. Zerg really needs to fend off the harassment 90%+ or they will fall; they need a pretty big advantage.
Now I think that zergs can adapt if they start doing things differently. Drops/Nydus and good infestor use are both valid opportunities. But the days of just attacking head on for zerg are numberd if it continues like this. They now need sneaky play, which the terran needed before-- basically switching roles.
Kind of sad.
well it is pretty arguable that they were not bad balance wise b4 the patch. There were many games where T would be in a defensive position due to Z massing roaches (still happens now of course) and the T could score 20 drone kills and still be in a losing position because of larva inject and the sheer number of roaches that could make Zergs army count sustain them to get back the drone losses with ease, which made T die from sinking the original money into the harrass that ended up utterly pointless.
and as for harrassment like you mentioned...that is one of my points as well. Pre-patch, Zergs did not need to worry about harrassment so much. They could re-coup the drone losses easily with larva-inject because they already had a huge number of roaches on the field to sustain them if they took any economical damage whatsoever.
Now, exactly like you said, in patch 12 if the same thing occurs, Zerg, just like T and P, are not instantly back in the game if they lose 20+ drones 
|
On May 20 2010 01:50 Beyonder wrote:
And to add to this, I really, really hope they add a unit or two for zerg. This has been discussed countless of times and I'm not trying to derail this thread. But in the state it's in right now, zerg will not be so much fun..
I really doubt blizzard will add a new unit at this point of the beta. Zerg needs a new unit, but why add it for free when you can charge people on next expansion? It's sad but true.
|
On May 20 2010 01:46 bendez wrote:
Argh, another non-zerg player bs theorycrafting without any replays..
agreed, this is all I see...
Please actually try playing zerg above gold league before saying everything is fine and dandy...
|
I think roaches will get a buff. I'm OK with them have 2 supply, but at least put their regen back to what they use to be or add the armor back on . I think theoretically the regen would be much better, and they should evolve in either lair or hive tech like before so they can scale with end game toss and terran(tanks specifically)
|
Ur saying we cant ever beat the T army, & have to resort to being lame / backstabbing .
Meh if that would b the solution , i'm quitting z , but i'm gonna try other options then this before i do tho.
|
On May 20 2010 01:56 Shiladie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 01:46 bendez wrote:
Argh, another non-zerg player bs theorycrafting without any replays.. agreed, this is all I see... Please actually try playing zerg above gold league before saying everything is fine and dandy...
you guys are pretty adept at trolling. I'm 2k+ on eu server, same on us servers, this is not bs theorycrafting. What it is, is being rational about the changes and looking that Zergs are not abusing everything they have (NYDUS).
If I was an "artosis" or some other figure posting this, you would take it at face value, so try reading and absorbing instead of continuously asking for my replay folder.
|
Roach buff ? I'm not sure at all.
But an overall upgrade to ZvT, it is still needed, simply because Zerg don't have a way to properly react to a mech ball. What's positive with the nerf roach IMO is that zerg needs to flank instead of Burrow / Move / Unburrow on tanks.
The nerf of roach in itself was needed, but the fact is it entirely changed the MU against T. Simply because you don't need marauders anymore to counter roaches, at least 3 tanks are sufficient.
Now, flying barracks + hellion + tanks is a joke. A total joke. It's almost insane when it's properly used. The zerg has next to none possibilities, sadly, or only costly or all-in things.
Like many already said that, zerg needs a new unit. More versatility is what's needed right now.
BTW, I approve that this topic is not a joke. Of course, many are overreacting simply because they loved roaches, and still want to love them. But right now, it's not a roach problem, it's a balance problem.
|
On May 20 2010 01:58 zionman wrote:
Ur saying we cant ever beat the T army, & have to resort to being lame / backstabbing .
Meh if that would b the solution , i'm quitting z , but i'm gonna try other options then this before i do tho.
I would suggest you never go back to playing Brood war then, because versus Terran mech in brood war guess what little jimmmy? That is exactly what you have to do. You have to drop, macro your economy and chip away at the ball instead of trying to blunt force trauma it.
did you ever play SC1?
edit: oh, and MUTAS, LOTS OF THEM!
|
I think the problem is more in the early game than the late game. Its harder to defend the all in rushes that were already almost impossible to defend (warp gate rushes, especially on small maps). Mid and late game doesn't really appear to be a problem since players can just mass hydra brood lord and it pretty much makes up for the lack of roaches.
|
On May 20 2010 01:54 bendez wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 01:50 Beyonder wrote:
And to add to this, I really, really hope they add a unit or two for zerg. This has been discussed countless of times and I'm not trying to derail this thread. But in the state it's in right now, zerg will not be so much fun.. I really doubt blizzard will add a new unit at this point of the beta. Zerg needs a new unit, but why add it for free when you can charge people on next expansion? It's sad but true.
I had this one idea once for a moment is that theyre going to give out the game with the galaxy editor and they expect people to actually make adjustments to the units and see what kind of ideas are being made. Then, once an expansion is going to get out they simply look at what ideas seem to be the most balanced and fun and implement them.
That said, the possible unit ideas is limited and not limitless and its bound to happen that one of the ideas has a lot in common with what blizzard will do. It also happened to left 4 dead 2, where people were claiming that some of the new special infected were exact copies of their ideas. Some of these ideas were actually never posted on the forums (funny) and some even claimed they deserved credit for it (funnier).
|
i agree with the nydus part i use them in most of my game, they are soo powerful, for example when ur enemy start to move his army to go to ur base, just put a nydus in his base and the time he come to yours (or he retreat) u kill him like 1/3% of his base.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
