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Does anyone know how well Hellions fare vs Hydras in cost in a real game scenario (flanking behind roaches)? It seems to me that if you get critical mass and micro them a bit they can be really good.
The reason behind me asking is that I normally do a pretty fast hellion eco harass when infernal preignitor is completed, if I can get into the zergs base and i don't suicide to many of the hellions i find myself in a pretty good position with 2 factories up and a growing M&M ball. However, if I don't do enough damage to the zerg hydras I'm in trouble because hydras are really good against M&M unless you are marine heavy.
At work, so can't post any replays. And most games usually end pretty early after 5 hellions with preignitor kill off every single worker.
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Hellions are helpful as long as they aren't taking the brunt of the hydra/roach damage right away. I find that tanks +MMM is what really seals the deal vs hydra mass though.
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Hellion Marauder (w/ Medivacs later on.) combination is pretty useful against Mass Hydra / Roach combination. But I'm not too sure about just attacking Mass Hydras with only Hellions.
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ravens are extremely helpful versus hydras use the point defence drone i think its what it is call
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After I do a reactor hellion rush and I see him going hydras I can't stop laughing.
You alrdy have the unit, and a building to pump them out, I then add 1 more factory and begin the upgrade. Mass mara and hellions, flank with the hellions and gg hydras.
Hellion Hydra
100 min vs 100 min 50 gas
22 dmg to light 12 universal
6 range 5 range ( Unless upgraded to 6 )
( I might be wrong about that 22 dmg )
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As a Zerg player I find Mass M&M much more difficult to deal with than Hellions.
Hellions are good for harassment but they just melt against a good amount of hydra/roach, almost everything zerg have has the potential to kill hellions except banelings and zerglings where as M&M as zerg you really need baneling/hydra/roach or infestor/hydra/roach.
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But hellions wont counter roaches and mutas..
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On May 12 2010 21:17 OPSavioR wrote:
But hellions wont counter roaches and mutas..
and why would you point that out in a "Hellion vs Hydras" thread?
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Canada9720 Posts
On May 12 2010 21:33 preaCor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2010 21:17 OPSavioR wrote:
But hellions wont counter roaches and mutas.. and why would you point that out in a "Hellion vs Hydras" thread?
i'd look to his sig for the answer to that one. i'm guessing it's his dogma for more than just forum posts
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United States47024 Posts
On May 12 2010 20:42 Competent wrote:
After I do a reactor hellion rush and I see him going hydras I can't stop laughing.
You alrdy have the unit, and a building to pump them out, I then add 1 more factory and begin the upgrade. Mass mara and hellions, flank with the hellions and gg hydras.
Hellion Hydra
100 min vs 100 min 50 gas
22 dmg to light 12 universal
6 range 5 range ( Unless upgraded to 6 )
( I might be wrong about that 22 dmg )
It's 24, but comparative damage numbers are worthless without also noting attack speeds. Especially since the Hellion attacks 3 times slower than the Hydralisk.
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On May 12 2010 21:40 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2010 20:42 Competent wrote:
After I do a reactor hellion rush and I see him going hydras I can't stop laughing.
You alrdy have the unit, and a building to pump them out, I then add 1 more factory and begin the upgrade. Mass mara and hellions, flank with the hellions and gg hydras.
Hellion Hydra
100 min vs 100 min 50 gas
22 dmg to light 12 universal
6 range 5 range ( Unless upgraded to 6 )
( I might be wrong about that 22 dmg ) It's 24, but comparative damage numbers are worthless without also noting attack speeds. Especially since the Hellion attacks 3 times slower than the Hydralisk.
Thanks correcting the 22 dmg to 24. Now what needs to be taken into consideration is how many targets the hellion can hit compared to the hydra's speed.
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i feel like since the range upgrade, hellions are really really powerful.
i just won a game vs zerg where i started with hellion harrass into fast banshees, got by base busted though due to baneling bust, but could also kill almost all his workers and rebuild my base elsewhere thanks to mules.
The game came down to me having hellions with igniter vs his unupgraded mutas, and dear lord did he lose. It wasnt big number fights, rather 5v5 but he did not stand a chance to the kiting especially off creep. Some battles i didnt lose a single hellion in a 5v5
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Hellion damage is difficult to assess easily as it's very dependant on splash. The DPS against a single unit, even if it is light, is horrible but if it can hit multiple units it's quite good. Being so dependant on splash is for me the reason that the hellion and mech builds suck vs protoss but do quite well vs zerg.
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On May 12 2010 21:37 CTStalker wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2010 21:33 preaCor wrote:On May 12 2010 21:17 OPSavioR wrote:
But hellions wont counter roaches and mutas.. and why would you point that out in a "Hellion vs Hydras" thread? i'd look to his sig for the answer to that one. i'm guessing it's his dogma for more than just forum posts
Thats unnessecary, he points out that its not a very good counter to hydras compared to marines, since marines do so much better against other options Z might switch to.
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On May 12 2010 20:42 Competent wrote:
After I do a reactor hellion rush and I see him going hydras I can't stop laughing.
You alrdy have the unit, and a building to pump them out, I then add 1 more factory and begin the upgrade. Mass mara and hellions, flank with the hellions and gg hydras.
Hellion Hydra
100 min vs 100 min 50 gas
22 dmg to light 12 universal
6 range 5 range ( Unless upgraded to 6 )
( I might be wrong about that 22 dmg )
hellions do attack at 6 range but the AoE weapon actually reaches as far as 6.65
-- alas that tiny bit extra is less than the diameter of any unit other than a broodling.
damage vs light is 14 (+2) and can become 24(+2) with the preigniter.
damage vs non-lights is 8 (+1) ofc.
sounds fun but once you include the rate of fire/duration/attack cycle:
hydra goes lama every 0.83 seconds (against ground targets - it spits 10% faster at air units) for 12 damage -> 14.46dps
pre-igniter-hellion vs lights only attacks every 2.50 seconds for 24dmg vs light -> 9.60 dps
w/o pre-igniter but still light targets -> 5.60 dps
and vs everything else -> 3.20 dps
and if you speed into the skirmish and want to go for splash damage "up close" you can be sure they'll be hit by multiple rows of hydras as well.
for comparison: marine does 6 dmg every 0.8608seconds -> 6.97dps for 50 minerals. buy two and you get more dps, more total HP etc... sure 1 less range but at least it can be healed.
also... that's before stimpack, which adds another 50% dps...
sry, im still not convinced by hellions...
maybe, just maybe, if they took the 1 armor of the marauder (which has more range than a rine and is likely to shoot from the second row) and gave it to the hellion... *shrug*
also, instead of the thin line it spews, i'd prefer an arc, 6 long, 15° "wide".
this would result in a maximum width of 1.55 and thereby hitting more than just 1 hydra (1.25 diameter)
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Hellions sounds great in theory and boy have I tried to use them beyond the early game but I always get punished by roaches and mutas and the hellions end up being the liability that cost me the game in the end.
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On May 12 2010 20:42 Competent wrote:
After I do a reactor hellion rush and I see him going hydras I can't stop laughing.
You alrdy have the unit, and a building to pump them out, I then add 1 more factory and begin the upgrade. Mass mara and hellions, flank with the hellions and gg hydras.
Hellion Hydra
100 min vs 100 min 50 gas
22 dmg to light 12 universal
6 range 5 range ( Unless upgraded to 6 )
( I might be wrong about that 22 dmg )
It's really really hard to do any sort of theorycrafting on this since you can't take the micro capabilities of the hellions into effect. You can just dart in, get in a really good position and with enough hellions take out 5-6 hydras in a single attack. But with both players a-moving I'm sure the hydras will end up killing off all your hellions with them doing very little damage. Looking for some empirical data here 
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Hellions get destroyed by hydras, the firing delay, awkward aoe line means that sending hellions into a hydra blob means that the hellions just die before they can fire and they have really bad dps unless you can get a good arc off which is really unreliable, even with marauders taking most of the damage using hellion and marauders tends to be a mistake
Better to use marines or tanks
Hellion harass has to be really effective for it to not lose you the game, thor drops are less vulnerable hilariously enough and thors never stop being useful and you tech fast so you can do something weird if you want
I don't like hellions at all except vs tons of zerglings
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tanks work better and more reliably.
Hellions are only worthwhile if you can get the line to hit multiple and something else is taking hits beside the hellions
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On May 12 2010 21:54 Viruuus wrote:
i feel like since the range upgrade, hellions are really really powerful.
i just won a game vs zerg where i started with hellion harrass into fast banshees, got by base busted though due to baneling bust, but could also kill almost all his workers and rebuild my base elsewhere thanks to mules.
The game came down to me having hellions with igniter vs his unupgraded mutas, and dear lord did he lose. It wasnt big number fights, rather 5v5 but he did not stand a chance to the kiting especially off creep. Some battles i didnt lose a single hellion in a 5v5
Eh?
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Hydra has 80 HP
Hellion has 90 HP
If the DPS really is what Roemy posted it's a no contest in head up fights.
Useful if you can kite OFF creep or gank some drones though.
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On May 12 2010 17:49 Odge wrote:
Does anyone know how well Hellions fare vs Hydras in cost in a real game scenario (flanking behind roaches)? It seems to me that if you get critical mass and micro them a bit they can be really good.
The reason behind me asking is that I normally do a pretty fast hellion eco harass when infernal preignitor is completed, if I can get into the zergs base and i don't suicide to many of the hellions i find myself in a pretty good position with 2 factories up and a growing M&M ball. However, if I don't do enough damage to the zerg hydras I'm in trouble because hydras are really good against M&M unless you are marine heavy.
At work, so can't post any replays. And most games usually end pretty early after 5 hellions with preignitor kill off every single worker.
If you are getting early hellions, I highly recommend reactor first on factory to mass up and do an early harass - preigniter is amazing but you trade the higher damage for a much lower hellion count.
But yeah, hellions with the upgrade can crisp hydras very quickly, however all the zerg has to do is make roaches to counter, so you would want to bring marauders as well. Hellion + Mara is very strong, especially when you add Thors later.
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I was just wondering, why do roaches counter hellions so well? Is it their hp? I thought hellions out range roaches.
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Calgary25971 Posts
I don't even know what this OP is getting at. Are Hellions good vs Hydras? Yes.
Don't make a thread for self-evident questions.
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EPT
