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On April 09 2010 14:15 Ryuu314 wrote:
Zerg has the ability to mass up enormous armies in a matter of minutes. You just lost a 100 supply army? No matter. You can replace in 5 minutes. Zerg is the aggressor race. You don't wait around for them to mass an army so you can counter it; you make an army and force them to counter you. If you're playing defensively and counter what your opponents do you're playing Zerg completely wrong. If that's how you like to play then switch to Protoss or Terran.
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You underestimate the power of Zerg production capability WAY too much. The larva mechanic allows you to create any army composition near-instantaneously.
I'm getting kind of annoyed with these statements. Other than 1) the fact that 5 minutes is a long period of time and if you just trashed 100 supply worth of army and don't yourself do anything for the next 5 minutes, it's your fault but 2) it's not like Zerg is sitting around with infinite minerals and gas all the time. Sure you're not building 12 hatcheries late game like you did in BW to get comparable larva production but if you think about it queens cost half a hatchery already. Well worth it, and I love the mechanic, but Zerg could always do this--they just needed more hatches.
It does to some degree reward bad macro in that people engage their zomgamove army and then watch/micro that without macroing and then go back to their hatchery with the minerals they accumulated and spawn a huge army because they were macroing poorly in the first place, but once again you could do this with more hatcheries.
One thing they might consider changing about spawn larva, however, is it does feel strange how you can keep injecting even after one round of larva has spawned and you haven't used them yet--the production Zerg can do after being maxed and waiting for a few injects to go off before engaging is somewhat unsettling. Usually in these cases they're already won though, and once again if you threw down more hatcheries in BW, you could effectively do this too.
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I like zerg in this patch. They nerfed marauder so terran has to wait for an extra 100 gas and research time to push out of his base.
Zerg actually has to play well to win games in this patch. Units that don't hard counter roach actually work vs roaches now. You aren't completely fucked if you dont have an immortal when the roach hits.
I don't think zerg armies were intended to be able to fight toe to toe at equal tech/resource with protoss/terran.
I've had alot of success with speedling/muta lately. Finally roach every game is no longer the best strategy.
They should buff hydra speed movement slightly off creep. Other than that I think Zerg is fine. Nerf Immortals to like 18+20 or something so they dont 4 shot hydras.
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tbh i dont know what you mean, i think your trying to say zerg is weak but that would make you retarded...so im not sure exactly what to say.
If you think zerg is weak then you dont know nothing about anything, zerg right now is the most op race in SC2, last patches reduced this margin preaty well but they still are the most op. i mean the first quote you rage on "Ohh no... He walled in... I should just GG now?" means you know nothing about the mu or just try and 2hatch each game and go OMFGBBQ when your first 6 lings from your 13pool dont get in the T's base.
zerg doesn't have to be agrresive ealry, it can very easily but it doesn't have to to win. zerg is the most moblie race, with fast ground and air units zerg harassment can be the best in the game and should be used as much as possible, don't mean you have to harass every 2-5 minutes to win... just sperates the men from the boyz is all.
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offtopic// i dont know why ppl say hatchery costs 350 YES it does cost 350 but your 1 drone down so its still 400 logically..
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Ahh...
No, its 300 base + 50 for the cost of using up a drone.
Your first post, was a fail, sorry.
As for the zerg issue, well I havent figured out a way to counter it as of now (other than being agressive AND lucky/better to take down that FE asap).
I'm a firm believer in the efficiency of divide and conquer, as in destroy 1 or multiple expo or important tech buildings while moving your main force elsewhere. Taking into account how fast buildings are destroyed in Sc2, all it takes to kill an hatch is a dropship's worth of units. I'm often doing the same mistakes having my army in a single bulk, a la Wc3.
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On April 09 2010 22:58 AeroGear wrote:
Ahh...
No, its 300 base + 50 for the cost of using up a drone.
Your first post, was a fail, sorry.
i realise that but your a drone down so you need another +50 to have the same amount once again without it your lower in your income count so its 400
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I'm not going to say that zerg isn't broke yet. Instead i'm going to send you in the direction i'm going right now with zerg. I've seen that many of the zergs armies can get raped by splash damage as the game enters the mid sized army stages of the game. Like people have noticed, tanks rape hydras and roaches. Hellions can rape zerglings, These colossus immortal stalker temp armies seem to run over zerg. Now with the temp upgrade, temps are even more effective against hydralisks. In a 1 on 1 match when the other player has got the unit composition they require, it seems like zerg can just get run over. This is true. On the other hand the tanks are slow compared to zerglings. Vikings are slow compared to mutas. And everything is slow compared to Nydus network. And on the other hand, 4 zerglings>1 zealot in comparable money, 3 zerglings> 1 stalker which makes quite a large gap. 3 zerglings>1 marauder There are many other examples of this, against many of the races other non-splash type units. Also, zerg properly macroed, has incredible versatility when it comes to when they choose to build units and en mass. Mass zerglings can come at 2 mins. Mass zergling baneling can come at about 5:10-5:40 mins. Zergling can just get a light defense early, build more drone, and then just mass an endless unstopable production later on. And their speed is unrivaled. The player has to fear moving out at any random time, 2 mins 5 mins 7 mins 10 mins. They have to fear zerglings running by into their main. They have to fear a nydus network going up. They have to fear that they dont have enough vikings to win against the much WEAKER yet FASTER muta army. So I leave you with that. Know that zerg have the dominant army against many non splash unit compositions. Know that zerg are much faster and more mobile than all the other races by a HUGE margin, even more so in sc2 than sc1. Know that the other player has to fear that speed at all times, and has to be certain before he pushes out. Know that zerg can use all that to out macro, out expand, just plain out produce your opponent. Know that zerg is a builders race. Your strength and skill with zerg will depend on how well you produce enough of each unit at required times. Know that zerg OWNS and will continue to own in sc2 ! gl with zerg 
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On April 09 2010 23:02 Prae wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2010 22:58 AeroGear wrote:
Ahh...
No, its 300 base + 50 for the cost of using up a drone.
Your first post, was a fail, sorry. i realise that but your a drone down so you need another +50 to have the same amount once again without it your lower in your income count so its 400
Wait, what?
By that logic, nexus and cc's cost 450, because you need a worker in the first place to build them.
The hatch costs 300. It takes a worker, that's 50 mins which takes into account the replacement for the worker itself.
If we imagine a hypothetical where I have 1 scv and you have 1 drone, it works like this.
1 worker, 50 mins each.
I send scv to build CC, that costs 400. 450 spent (not taking into account the heaps long loss of mining time) all up.
1 drone, 50 mins.
1 hatch, 300 mins. 350 mins spent.
1 replacement worker, 50 mins. 400 mins.
The zerg costs 50 minerals less to expand then the other races.
QED motherfuckers.
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i realise that but your a drone down so you need another +50 to have the same amount once again without it your lower in your income count so its 400
Fine, then CC is 400 + mineral lost by that SCV not harvesting? I get your point but its not the reasoning behind zerg having advantage early. The main difference is the time needed to save 300 mineral, which enables you to lay it down faster than their counterpart, not the cost once its up.
Once that hatch is down, with creep and some lings/crawler+queen support, it is really hard to take out early before getting simply outharvested/outmassed.
Edit: Apologies for not reading the wall of text.
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On April 09 2010 23:10 AeroGear wrote:Show nested quote +
i realise that but your a drone down so you need another +50 to have the same amount once again without it your lower in your income count so its 400
Fine, then CC is 400 + mineral lost by that SCV not harvesting? I get your point but its not the reasoning behind zerg having advantage early. The main difference is the time needed to save 300 mineral, which enables you to lay it down faster than their counterpart, not the cost once its up. Once that hatch is down, with creep and some lings/crawler+queen support, it is really hard to take out early before getting simply outharvested/outmassed.
Edit: Apologies for not reading the wall of text.
I agree that because zerg only has to save up 300 to build a hatchery its still faster then the other races
But its the tought that it eventually costs the same & not 50less then the other races mb my train of toughts is just "wrong" while its still correct in some way i guess it just depends how you look at it
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You're forgetting about overlords too. CC's and Nexus provide supply. Hatcheries don't
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why don't u just ask idra why he switched to zerg? he loved playing protoss...
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On April 09 2010 23:19 Prae wrote:
I agree that because zerg only has to save up 300 to build a hatchery its still faster then the other races
But its the tought that it eventually costs the same & not 50less then the other races mb my train of toughts is just "wrong" while its still correct in some way i guess it just depends how you look at it
The thing is that by expanding further you not only add another point where Drones can deliver minerals and gas, but you also add a potential three barracks / warpgates / ... So if a terran is expanding once I would always expand one more time and maybe skip the second queen at my main/natural combo to make it work fast enough. With a third hatchery you are probably guaranteed either:
- not being scouted at the hidden expo (probably true for 4-player maps) or
- the opponent wasting time on destroying / harrassing that one. In this case you get more time to prepare and an estimate about his forces too.
In any case you are up in production capability and sometimes an extra expo beats a queen as TheLittleOne showed us. Your economy should even beat a Terran with two OCs and you should have enough larvae to produce everything needed to overrun the opposition.
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On April 09 2010 23:31 thez wrote:
You're forgetting about overlords too. CC's and Nexus provide supply. Hatcheries don't
Hatcheries do actually. 1 Supply I think it is.
To the OP. Most of your concerns can be applied to BW zerg too.
The great advantage Zerg has is the flexability of it's macro and the maneurvability of it's forces.
Admittedly this requires a higher level of play and it's not easy.
The truth is if Zerg can go head to head to with other races with equal supply then it's actually imbalanced in favour of Zerg. The flexability of Zerg makes them very good at defending against cheese yet being economically ahead.
The trick is to time your army production as late as possible so you are greatly ahead in economy when the opponents attack comes in. All good Zergs know this already.
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best bet is to watch DIMAGA or korean pro replays. They really show the true power of zerg.
I do agree zerg is the weakest race right now (and im a P player now), but it isnt that far behind. The only matchup I think is totally bad is ZvT, everything else is balanced.
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On April 09 2010 23:56 Klive5ive wrote:
The trick is to time your army production as late as possible so you are greatly ahead in economy when the opponents attack comes in. All good Zergs know this already.
I was just about to add something to my post above, but this puts it very nicely. I have a feeling that the queen has made Zerg players become complacent about expanding. This seems to be a miscalculation and the sentence above is a good motto to keep in mind IMO. Even in BW Zerg players built Sunken Colonies to defend, but in SC2 Zerg tend to ignore it as "static defense which cant be used to attack". As long as Roaches were IMBA it was possible to simply mass them and swamp the opponent fast, but now there needs to be a change in strategy away from super early aggression towards super early expansion (with defensive play) and then getting a huge army from an economic advantage. Blizzard even made Spine Crawlers do decent damage and their ability to move on creep allows you to use them to cover a slow advance and strategic placement ... in other words to become part of your offense.
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Besides a major issue with zerg diversity and lack of opportunity to do anything interesting, I think a lot of the problems you discuss have to do with the poor map design.
Once we have bases with multiple entrances and chokes that can't be blocked by a dust ball, we'll see the game develop much more.
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On April 09 2010 23:08 iaguz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2010 23:02 Prae wrote:On April 09 2010 22:58 AeroGear wrote:
Ahh...
No, its 300 base + 50 for the cost of using up a drone.
Your first post, was a fail, sorry. i realise that but your a drone down so you need another +50 to have the same amount once again without it your lower in your income count so its 400 Wait, what? By that logic, nexus and cc's cost 450, because you need a worker in the first place to build them. The hatch costs 300. It takes a worker, that's 50 mins which takes into account the replacement for the worker itself. If we imagine a hypothetical where I have 1 scv and you have 1 drone, it works like this. 1 worker, 50 mins each. I send scv to build CC, that costs 400. 450 spent (not taking into account the heaps long loss of mining time) all up. 1 drone, 50 mins. 1 hatch, 300 mins. 350 mins spent. 1 replacement worker, 50 mins. 400 mins. The zerg costs 50 minerals less to expand then the other races. QED motherfuckers.
You forgot to consider a few things, like the permanent loss of the drone in one case and not the other. What happens when your scv returns to gather?
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I'm ranked 3 platinum and all of my matches are zerg.
(except one, where i accidently randomed, got protoss and didnt know WTF to do so i got some zealots/sentries and went early robo for observer and got an immortal, turns out he watned to thor rush me with 2 thors in a proxy, and like 30 SCVs. Good think i could crono boost, and thors do 20 a hit to Immortals, as immortals do 55 to thors ^^)
Anyways, the ONLY MU i find hard is ZvZ.
Vs Protoss Earlier: they always tried immortal push, so FE into early speedling was a win if they didnt wall of properly.
I used to be 17-2 against protoss... thats where i got all my wins.
Vs Protoss Now: Protoss like to get alot more of an early zealot/sentry compilation, so once i scout this and he blocked his ramp, i switch directly into getting a few roaches, and try to get some Mutas out early to harass, as Sentries > Mutas, but Mutas can harass mad eco, once you get 5 or more out. Also, by now you have your main base, AND an expo saturated, and once you see him expo Hello speedling/roach rush with +1 carapace if hes going for +1 dmg. Watch him cancel his nexus to your army and GG ragequit.
I'm about a 1:1 ratio with protoss more recently wtih this Zealot/Sentry compilation as i've tried puer speedlings too many times.
Vs Old Terran: MUTA RUSH. It would always do a GREAT deal harassing them, as the turrets did nearly half the damage to Mutas before, so they would have to have >2 to stop as little at 5-6 mutas out early, and Thors never had AOE air, so these were no problem at all.
I would say i was 2:1 win ratio against old terran.
Vs New Terran: With alot of terrans still doing MMM, but some transitioning into Early Hellion into Mech (This usually destroys me, as i never like to get roaches against terran as Marauders > Roaches by too much) But pretty much what you must do is: Once you see one supply depot going up on his wall, BANELING burst with the proper timing with about 24 Zerglings. If you notice he has a decent army up by then due to a large map (desert oasis), such as 3-4 marauders, and 5-6 Marines, i tend to run most of my Z-lings straight to the mineral line, and do as much early damage as possible, OR if it's a smaller map such as Lost temple, where he can be quite close than i focus his units, que up my speedlings, and inject as much as possible, until I win, or he walls up in time. If he does, i IMMEDIATLY expo, and work on economy, as he will be building up an army to DEFEND most likely, and not take an offensive. Although i must say, Terran is the strongest race at the moment right now.
I'd say close to 1:1 ratio now, due to the fact that if they hellion rush, they have 2-3 up before i bust + marines, and on a larger map as much to 4-5 up which will demolish my Banelings as the run up, same with my speedlings. (Hellion rush > most zerg now-adays as Roaches arent a viable option due to marauders being able to outmicro)
Vs old Zerg: Roach fest. srrrrrr, timing +1 attacks.
Vs new Zerg: Sometime Roach fest, other times Speedlings into early mutas.
ZvZ is where the majority of my losses come from.
I'm probably 0.75:1, or 0.66:1 in this, as i'll try one strat that i lost to last game, but then the NEXT opponents strat counters mine... I'm leaning towards FE speedlings +1 + early mutas now though. (if anyone wants, im in the... US server i think? I'm canadian, but i need a ZvZ practice partner. Anyoen in high gold, or mid-high plat will do. PM me, or add BigDates.dayton)
Summary: Zerg can fare well, as if you do choose to expand quite early, you can still usually pump enough units out fast enough to defend and Macro, mostly on maps with a natural defending the main route up (to defend against Hellion / Speedling harass mainly) otherwise. not many terran will decide to engage your army, as well burrowed banelings, and speedlings > terrans earlygame since the 20 + 15 on banelings, and if they get medivacs, hope you can get baneling speed reall fast with some roaches and z-lings, and Hydras to gun down those medis, or Mutas for harassiment.
i think as it stands, only terran needs to lose a bit of their AA abilties, or somehow hinder Hellion rushes.. (maybe by decreasing the range from that of a marine... as Roaches with speed upg on blight move about the same speed as hellions, off the blight they are too slow, and speedlings can EASILY be kited with the +10 to light UPG. Just IMO.
But yeah, Zerg isnt lacking too much, i WISH i could think so, but i cant. Terran is more OP though
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On April 10 2010 00:10 Vexx wrote:
Besides a major issue with zerg diversity and lack of opportunity to do anything interesting, I think a lot of the problems you discuss have to do with the poor map design.
Once we have bases with multiple entrances and chokes that can't be blocked by a dust ball, we'll see the game develop much more.
Protoss arent usually walling in and the Baneling bust has made depots somewhat of an Achilles heel if a Terran does it. I certainly dont see your point, because it works both ways. You can block the choke with minimal effort as a Zerg too, so the usual quick "bad map design" argument doesnt work for me. Zerg especially have the potential to use mass drops (one upgrade to allow all Overlords to act as shuttles) or use a Nydus into the base and thus circumvent any chokes ... but they arent using it.
"Bases with multiple entrances and chokes that can't be blocked" is an argument that signals an attitude which doesnt want to bother with learning to crack a defense. Wide open bases would give Zerg a totally unfair advantage due to their mobility. Everyone can block a choke and thus these maps are much fairer.
"lack of opportunity to do anything interesting" translates into "lack of imagination" for me. Scroll up to see a lot of suggestions for "interesting play", although most do not involve the boring "rung up to him and punch him in the face"-direct confrontation style.
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EPT
