I am going to post the best post I've seen on the issues that I see plague zerg....
Q u o t e: i believe the strength of zerg is the ability to prevent those said super armys from ever being produced. Zerg can put an amazing amount of pressure on the enemy, adapting to whatever comes your way. A good zerg player should always have the appropriate units to deal with their enemy as they can tech switch instantly.
Ohh no... He walled in... I should just GG now? Really, I know what you're saying, but if you think in long term for the game... This can not hold to be true as players learn to stop you from stopping them from getting to the midgame units.
Q u o t e: Marines? okay roaches..marauder+mech? cracklings! banshees? HYDRAS Zealots? MOAR ROACHES..Stalker+sentry+immortal? Feed the lings more crack!+hydras+mutas!
You forgot Marines + Mauraders, which destroy Zerglings, Banelings, + Roaches. The fundamental problem with the matchup is that Marines = Zerglings (per tier), and Mauraders = Roaches (per tier / 1.5). Both Marines and Maraders are ranged and the Marauder out ranges the Roach. The Maurader hard counters the Roach. Zerglings may counter the Maurader in open field, but Marines counter the Zerglings. What happens is that the Mauraders and Marines slaughter the Zerglings as the zerglings attempt to close into melee range, and then the Mauraders wtfpown the Roaches. Once the forces collide, the advantage is greatly to the Terran.
Similarly, the Zealots own Zerglings. When these forces collide, the Zealots shread the Zerg front lines (Zerglings), and then the Protoss ranged units out range the Roach from behind the Zealots. Once Immortals come into play, the Zerg player has to withdraw the roaches or just let them die right these to open up more supply. The Zerg has to go Zerglings, and hope that the Protoss stops making Zealots. The zerg player is essentually defeated on the ground against the Protoss army. This gets worse once the Collossi comes into play. This is the reason most Zerg players Mass Mutalisks. It is due to the Protoss ground army being so superior to the zergs, that the only viable option is Air.
Q u o t e: Zerg does lack hard counters, but imagine if zerg had hard counters? their ability to tech switch so quickly would win them battles no matter the circumstance as they could pump hard counters in within seconds.
The Zerg would still need to build the Units respective building. Big deal if from there he can build units from a hatchery instead of from that building... The other races can do exactly the same thing, but without sacrificing their production que for building zealots, Mauraders, Probes and SCVs etc. For the Zerg, larva have to be budgeted between 1. Workers, 2. Supply, 3. Military. Most non-zerg players think the Hatchery is all bonus, but Zerg players know that the Larva is more of a hindrence then a boon.
Q u o t e: Play zerg like you are a disease or virus. Contain the enemy and wear him down..Never let him rest, Never let him mass anything, expand around him and spread your sight across the map. Whittle his forces down with every successful skirmish and worker raid. And then when the time is right... unleash the fury of the zerg from every angle on his base and take the match as your win.
You have it wrong. The play you described is how other players play against the Zerg. Once you add in Thors, Collossi, and Siege Tanks, the Zerg is the easiest thing in the game to choke and contain. All that mass expoing has to be done to achieve your first point, and that is to deatroy them before they can get the units which dominate every aspect of the game over the Zerg. Your first point wont hold up for long.
Basically the way I see it...
Zerg cant be aggressive because early game armies (6 pool cheese asside) destroy lings. By the time roaches is out they are hard countered by Mauraders and Immortals. To say nothing of wall offs.
Ok well thats fine, so we macro up... but wait. Our mid game army also gets demolished. Splash from storm/tank/colossi rapes our armies.
Ok so our awesome unitproduction makes up for it... except with reactors/warp in our production isnt even THAT much of an advantage. Heck it is almost a bit of a disadvantage being you have to split army/workers/supply up between them.
And then on top of this Zerg is the MOST susceptible to cheese like Banshee and Void Ray harass.
Zerg cant win early, cant win late. Where is the bunker busting "Dark swarm"m type ability.
As people get better at this game and are able to deny zerg harrass... what is zerg left with?
I am no pro. I still forget spawm larvae. But I can see what is infront of me. Every other race can sit in their base and make a well rounded army that will counter whatever zerg makes. Meanwhile Zerg , trying the same thing, will be demolished.
honestly, i'm not a pro either. but recently i've been feeling exactly this way about playing zerg in beta. good post. will a zerg pro release a wealth of information that can save us? please! ;]
If any player lets zerg sit around while they mass up an army, they will be demolished as soon as they poke out of their base. Zerg's ability to mass up drones then mass up the perfect counter to whatever army they spot is unreal with spawn larva.
Are you using banelings correctly vs bio? Banelings are completely ridiculous. Speedlings can clean up the marauders fine with all the marines dead. Because zerg has no larva issues making mass ling armies is viable. Do it.
Vs mech you really need to be making nothing but roaches whenever possible. Hydras should be minimal and only there as needed. Mech can't handle mass roach.
Vs protoss you really should just mass speedling unless they skip the robo bay, then mass roach is probably better. One of the funnest things to do is get speedlings and backstab with them (or just run in if you can) and morph some to banelings while running the other ones around. Banelings finish and go for workers and let the (s)laughter ensue.
Zerg has the most imba macro mechanic out there. This is pretty much indisputable and this general sentiment is shared by pretty much every good SC/SC2 player. Inject larva allows you to not only tech switch very effectively, but it allows you to pump drones and recover from any economic harass done to you in less than 2 minutes. And apparently you've never done a ling all-in before they patched the unit pathing because that was one of the most ridiculous strategies around. Since they patched unit pathing it's less OMGWTF but it still does wonders when done to an unsuspecting player.
Zerg has the ability to mass up enormous armies in a matter of minutes. You just lost a 100 supply army? No matter. You can replace in 5 minutes. Zerg is the aggressor race. You don't wait around for them to mass an army so you can counter it; you make an army and force them to counter you. If you're playing defensively and counter what your opponents do you're playing Zerg completely wrong. If that's how you like to play then switch to Protoss or Terran.
Zerg has the easiest time expanding. Why? Because for one their hatcheries only cost 300 while CCs and Nexuses cost 400. This means you can expand earlier and more often. In addition, the ease at which Zerg can mass armies means that you can get an army to defend your expos quickly and easily.
You underestimate the power of Zerg production capability WAY too much. The larva mechanic allows you to create any army composition near-instantaneously. The only thing preventing that from being totally broken in BW was the rate at which larva spawned. That limit is now somewhat removed with the Queen macro mechanic. Hence the bit about Zerg having the most imba macro mechanic. Like I said earlier, Zerg needs to be the aggressor. Mass mutas and force the Protoss to get Stalkers. Now switch to mass cracklings and laugh as those Stalkers melt to the claws of your lings. He got Colossi? Okay, make a crapton of Corruptors and enjoy killing expensive shit that can't even hit back. He got more stalkers again? Okay morph your Corruptors into Brood Lords, the strongest "ultimate" unit in the game and just roflstomp your opponent.
Obviously I exaggerated a bit (okay...maybe more than a bit) but you see the point? Either you're just really bad or you're playing Zerg wrong. Post some replays?
EDIT: What floophead said can also be done. Just drone whoring then macro-ing an army that counters your opponent's can work, but I find that it's usually more effective when a Zerg is the aggressor, not the defender.
fungal growth vs zealots, vs rines, vs marauders - heck - any small'ish (massed) ground unit it may not kill them directly but the immobilty is stronger than sentries' force fields.
also; not letting mutas or banshees escape your hydras is pwn
neural parasite vs colossi, thors, high templars etc and there's your increased unit diversity
I think, when you're looking for a "anti-turtle" unit, you're trying to play Zerg the same way as the other two races. You don't win games by shattering their front with Siege Tanks or Colossus. You win by out tech switching, out expanding, and out macro-opponents.
Oh yes, and don't underestimate Infestor's. They may be made of (armored) paper, but if he ignores them the Fungal Growth can be a huge boon to your army, especially against Terran bio and Protoss when they have a few Colossi. Neural Parasite isn't quite where it needs to be (useful), but you can use it if they are just a-moving into your army.
Get map control, force him to turtle, and win the economy game. That's how Zerg does it right.
as a zerg player that fast expands pretty much every game at will, i disagree. larvae was a hindrance in SC1 but now is pretty much one of our biggest strengths. If you are facing problems with larvae then you aren't macroing as well as you should be.
He has it right that zerg is the least aggressive early. Other than a baneling bust or some other all-inish type of strat, zerg can really put no pressure on the enemy early game. Both races have wall ins that completely shut down zergling aggression, and a few marauders or a cannon tower at the top of a ramp keep you from doing any sort of roach pressure.
So the best zerg can hope to do is threaten a backstab with his lings vs toss, or try and contain with lings vs terran. Really though, ZvT is more about the zerg surviving whatever harass/cheese the terran will throw at him for the first 10 minutes without taking too much economic damage so he can outproduce the terran mid game and beyond. This is not being aggressive. The terran completely dictates the match.
In both of the non-mirrors, zerg takes a heavy reactionary stance and must just sit back and survive until his macro kicks in. You drone as much as you can while trying to make just enough units to survive. About the time you take your third, you are finally ready to go on the offensive a bit, but that's like 10 minutes in.
While I guess there is nothing wrong with this, i've been seriously considering a race switch just because I prefer to be really aggressive early and I like to control the flow of a match and that is just not how zerg rolls in SC2.
yeah, i agree with you on many points The only viable option is to force the opponent to make mistakes, with faking tech or mutaharass and exp a whole lot, and pull out a roach army. Rushing to ultras is not viable, mas muta cannot win, hydras are useless, lings/blings cannot break a well rounded army, so Zergs are left to mass that nerfed-insect, roach. Pre-patch when Hydras werent useless it was different, you could fight on even-ish terms mid-game. Patch 8 totally screwed up the game in my opinion. Seriously 80 hp Tier 2 unit? are you serious Blizzard?
On April 09 2010 13:51 durron wrote: Zerg cant be aggressive because early game armies (6 pool cheese asside) destroy lings. By the time roaches is out they are hard countered by Mauraders and Immortals. To say nothing of wall offs.
Game 1 of ...
Granted that video is from before Patch 8, BUT TLO used Roaches and Zerglings, so the reduced armor has not the big impact you might want to give it. Also Nazgul never got an Immortal out ... only Zealots and Stalkers and TLO put a ton of pressure on.
On April 09 2010 13:51 durron wrote:Ok well thats fine, so we macro up... but wait. Our mid game army also gets demolished. Splash from storm/tank/colossi rapes our armies.
Well who said that you have to be able to beat them "head on"? Use tricks and harrass to pull his strings and attack somewhere else and kill a base.
Zerg have the unique ability to cover the whole map with creep tumors and get total detection ... like ultimate Xel'Naga towers. All this takes is a little micro/macro. With this ability you can also deny expansions to non-Zerg players and even "invade" their bases. So you should know exactly where your opponent is and be able to strike where he is not. The goal of the game isnt to beat his army, but rather to destroy his base. Sadly Zerg players havent gotten around to the concept of harrassing and are stuck in their "grab a Horde and A-move" and are totally discounting sneakiness (drops, harrass, Infestors).
On April 09 2010 13:51 durron wrote:Ok so our awesome unitproduction makes up for it... except with reactors/warp in our production isnt even THAT much of an advantage. Heck it is almost a bit of a disadvantage being you have to split army/workers/supply up between them.
Errr ... you have the cheapest Expo, a queen to spew extra larva and you are complaining about it? Look at it like this: - You can only build as much as you can afford and P and T have to spend LOTS of resources early on on production buildings. - You need seven barracks, factories, ... to be able to produce with the same speed as you, and you have three types of buildings. If you want to go mass air you just need a Spire and then pump Mutas from every Larva you can afford. Terran and Protoss would have to build SEVEN buildings per hatchery to have the same potential.
On April 09 2010 13:51 durron wrote:And then on top of this Zerg is the MOST susceptible to cheese like Banshee and Void Ray harass.
You actually consider this cheese? Just because you are unwilling to invest in defense (and scouting)? Investing into an AA turret or two should be mandatory, since DTs and cloaked Ghosts with Nukes can ruin your day.
On April 09 2010 13:51 durron wrote:Zerg cant win early, cant win late. Where is the bunker busting "Dark swarm"m type ability.
- Brood Lords? - You dont need to kill a bunker / turtled Terran with Tanks in the middle of the map, just go around it with Nydus. - Banelings do extra damage against buildings? Isnt a bunker a statement of self-containment? You dont NEED to bust in right then, but rather triple expand and crush him with really huge numbers 5-10 minutes later? If you absolutely must break the bunker right there and then THIS is for you.
On April 09 2010 13:51 durron wrote:As people get better at this game and are able to deny zerg harrass... what is zerg left with?
I am no pro. I still forget spawm larvae. But I can see what is infront of me. Every other race can sit in their base and make a well rounded army that will counter whatever zerg makes. Meanwhile Zerg , trying the same thing, will be demolished.
What kind of harrass are you using? There are so many tricks up the sleeves of Zerg that I doubt people can protect against them all.
Zerg is left with the same thing the others have: their imagination! Zerg usually get Infestors LAST for their army, but that unit requires energy to be effective and energy requires time. Also it might not be a good idea to have the Infestor in the main bunch of your army, but rather attack from a different angle. Many players are still forgetting their detectors and Infestors can move while burrowed (as Roaches can). Dont whine about Reapers if you dont use moving burrowed Roaches to harrass yourself. You only need 3-4 Roaches to kill a lot of workers. Dont whine about massed MMM if you dont use Fungal Growth on them to split them up, deal damage, let their Stim Pack run out and reduce the energy of the Medivacs. Dont whine about Immortals if you dont use Infestors to Mind Control them. Dont whine about air attacks if you dont build defenses against that. Think creatively and never ever discard a unit of your army as useless!
Zerg just won the latest ICCUP tourney tonight. Zerg are also dominating the latest (post-patch) round of tournaments in Korea (see the replay thread).
Guess the rest of the zerg should watch those replays and take notes.
On April 09 2010 14:15 Ryuu314 wrote: Zerg has the easiest time expanding. Why? Because for one their hatcheries only cost 300 while CCs and Nexuses cost 400. This means you can expand earlier and more often. In addition, the ease at which Zerg can mass armies means that you can get an army to defend your expos quickly and easily.
Kind of off here. 300 for the hatch plus 50 for the drone sacrifice. Each main building has it's advantages. CC lift and can be repaired. Nexus comes with its macro mechanic free of charge. And hatch is cheaper but you have to spend 2 food and 150 minerals for your macro mechanic.
Rabiator great job on giving a thorough and thoughtful answer i hate it when ppl just dismiss ppl and insult them when they're frustrated instead of doing what you did. I'm a noob and I've learned that it's hard to get real help like yours without the bm storm!
On April 09 2010 16:13 Reborn8u wrote: Rabiator great job on giving a thorough and thoughtful answer i hate it when ppl just dismiss ppl and insult them when they're frustrated instead of doing what you did. I'm a noob and I've learned that it's hard to get real help like yours without the bm storm!
There definately is some truth behind that. Tough, as we say in Germany (translated) "A taste of your own medicine" is given here.
This is a beta game and most people tend to discuss balance issues since we are all more or less new to this game. However high level players or players who claim deeper insight in the game mechanics (which excludes me of course) might feel insulted by posts like "zerg cant win" or "there is no possibility to do XYZ" - since it is way to early to say what is possible and what not. Plus it might cause a wave (remember, we are all newbies in this game) of those who feel "difficulties" through their leak of insight which leads to a huge balance issue on a higher level.
So if you ask for advice:
post a replay ask what (from your point of view) doesn't work for YOU and WHY ask what you might did wrong
But stop blaming it on all on balance, there are things left that have to be discussed but we have become a lot further towards balance by new so we have to be careful!
You underestimate the power of Zerg production capability WAY too much. The larva mechanic allows you to create any army composition near-instantaneously. The only thing preventing that from being totally broken in BW was the rate at which larva spawned. That limit is now somewhat removed with the Queen macro mechanic. Hence the bit about Zerg having the most imba macro mechanic. Like I said earlier, Zerg needs to be the aggressor. Mass mutas and force the Protoss to get Stalkers. Now switch to mass cracklings and laugh as those Stalkers melt to the claws of your lings. He got Colossi? Okay, make a crapton of Corruptors and enjoy killing expensive shit that can't even hit back. He got more stalkers again? Okay morph your Corruptors into Brood Lords, the strongest "ultimate" unit in the game and just roflstomp your opponent.
Ridiculous.
See more hydras with only 1 or 2 roaches? warp in more zealots from the proxy pylon. See mutas? warp in more stalkers from the warp prism or if you have the gas, sentries. Just heard the nydus? warp in units at your base. Warpgates allows protoss to fine tune army composition any time, anywhere. Most of the protoss army is from gateway anyways. How often do you find yourself in the situation where you need to mass off of more than 2 robos or 2 stargates?
See protoss has went more zealots and you need a thicker roach line? better start prepping those eggs.
Hatcheries cannot compete with warpgates in terms of flexibility.
How good a race's macro mechanic is has nothing to do with how the race is overall. One of the macro mechanics has to be better than the others, and when they saw that zerg's was the strongest, they balanced the rest of the race accordingly.
You underestimate the power of Zerg production capability WAY too much. The larva mechanic allows you to create any army composition near-instantaneously. The only thing preventing that from being totally broken in BW was the rate at which larva spawned. That limit is now somewhat removed with the Queen macro mechanic. Hence the bit about Zerg having the most imba macro mechanic. Like I said earlier, Zerg needs to be the aggressor. Mass mutas and force the Protoss to get Stalkers. Now switch to mass cracklings and laugh as those Stalkers melt to the claws of your lings. He got Colossi? Okay, make a crapton of Corruptors and enjoy killing expensive shit that can't even hit back. He got more stalkers again? Okay morph your Corruptors into Brood Lords, the strongest "ultimate" unit in the game and just roflstomp your opponent.
Ridiculous.
See more hydras with only 1 or 2 roaches? warp in more zealots from the proxy pylon. See mutas? warp in more stalkers from the warp prism or if you have the gas, sentries. Just heard the nydus? warp in units at your base. Warpgates allows protoss to fine tune army composition any time, anywhere. Most of the protoss army is from gateway anyways. How often do you find yourself in the situation where you need to mass off of more than 2 robos or 2 stargates?
See protoss has went more zealots and you need a thicker roach line? better start prepping those eggs.
Hatcheries cannot compete with warpgates in terms of flexibility.
Protoss can be very flexible in terms of unit composition to counter the enemy army. You're absolutely correct. However, what they can't do is completely switch their tech on its head. Keep in mind that the only units that they can warp in are gateway units. At the moment, the key to most PvZ lies in the Robo Bay units, which can't be warped in. When storm was more viable Protoss had an easier time switch army composition on the fly to adjust, but now it's much harder to do that.
Also, a common situation where I'm put into is when a Zerg threatens mass mutas and I have to start massing up stalkers as soon as I see the spire go up, often before the first muta pops because once the spawn larva mechanic kicks in it is extremely hard to keep up my production to rival that of Zerg's. Being able to switch from stalkers to zealots on the fly is not that helpful when you can't even keep up with Zerg's production.
See more hydras with only 1 or 2 roaches? warp in more zealots from the proxy pylon. See mutas? warp in more stalkers from the warp prism or if you have the gas, sentries. Just heard the nydus? warp in units at your base. Warpgates allows protoss to fine tune army composition any time, anywhere. Most of the protoss army is from gateway anyways. How often do you find yourself in the situation where you need to mass off of more than 2 robos or 2 stargates?
See protoss has went more zealots and you need a thicker roach line? better start prepping those eggs.
Hatcheries cannot compete with warpgates in terms of flexibility
If you look at the cost and the amount of buildings toss needs to tech and macro I think you'll see it's a little more balanced than that suggests. Also many ppl are finding mutas useful to harass toss and it pretty much keeps them warping in at home. I agree hatcheries cant compete in flexibility but the amount of units you can produce and the cost of those units combined with the rate you can expo can be a real nightmare for toss, especially since they nerfed storm to the point where ppl arnt even bothering with templars.
Admittidley, one thing that annoys me about zerg is how a sunken can A) Outrange a bunker and B) how they're so powerful. Anything else I have trouble against really is just me failing, but playing someone who expands everywhere super fast and sunkens alot while getting mutas makes being aggressive so hard, especially since turrets cost so much now and die so quickly.
I think zerg are perfectly fine, lots of things you can do to break defense and if you can't, just mass expand everywhere since you'll generally not be able to be pushed on by the time you've expanded enough.
You should never think of TvZ as cost to cost fight, as well as ZvP. Zerg always lose more units/food/money.
As Nony aka Liquid'Tyler stated the problem is the map. Zerg is supposed to outmacro other race and establish constant refill of army. But current maps are very small and games are wc3-like which doesn't allow zergs to play good old SCBW zerg.
Previously in sc1 maps were so big that if terran leaves his base he couldn't make it back on time. Now that terrans are very mobile + medivacs and short distance they can easily take out zerg expansions and go back to their base quickly.
On April 09 2010 17:17 Qikz wrote: Admittidley, one thing that annoys me about zerg is how a sunken can A) Outrange a bunker and B) how they're so powerful. Anything else I have trouble against really is just me failing, but playing someone who expands everywhere super fast and sunkens alot while getting mutas makes being aggressive so hard, especially since turrets cost so much now and die so quickly.
I think zerg are perfectly fine, lots of things you can do to break defense and if you can't, just mass expand everywhere since you'll generally not be able to be pushed on by the time you've expanded enough.
What stops you from running him over with marauders in this situation? Marauders eat any structure for lunch, including spine crawlers. Just gotta make sure you have a thor or some marines by the time the mutas show up. The new turrets are very effective at killing mutas.
What buildings would need to be switched to? 2 starports when you went robo to add a little phoenix oomph to stalkers? that's 300/300 which is fairly comparable to 200/200 for a spire. If you throw in lair/cyber core, it's even cheaper for protoss.
You should already have a robo for obs if nothing. You guys are already voiding templars which is effective against everything. DTs counter nothing specifically. Citadel is more of an upgrade building for again, gateway units that you can already build which is even cheaper to reach than it is to reach hydra den.
How is warping in gateway units on the fly and instead of queuing up immortals, you queue up colossus turning your tech on its head? You can really afford to mass colossi out of 2 robos early?
Have you played zerg extensively at all? I've played protoss for a while in the beginning and then I played zerg for a while, and now I've been randoming a lot. Protoss feels far more flexible and versatile than zerg. There just haven't been that many memorable PvZs where I lost to "surprise! mutas!". Ling or roach all ins, yes, but same can be said about proxy gates. Also, early game, chrono boost/protoss econ is way better than inject larvae which doesn't even come into play until the first queen.
Honestly, whenever a huge whine post like this appeared in BroodWar era, where everything seems hopeless and whatever you do you lose - it was just shit macro.
taking over the whole map / power macroing / outproducing is one style for zerg. but the nydus worm and drops give them another style, too. I wish zerg had lurkers still, though.
On April 09 2010 13:51 durron wrote: Zerg cant win early, cant win late. Where is the bunker busting "Dark swarm"m type ability.
As people get better at this game and are able to deny zerg harrass... what is zerg left with?
I am no pro. I still forget spawm larvae. But I can see what is infront of me. Every other race can sit in their base and make a well rounded army that will counter whatever zerg makes. Meanwhile Zerg , trying the same thing, will be demolished.
Why is it you think that 6 out of 8 in the finalists of the Korean PlayXP tournament are Zerg? You think it is because they are too weak? Hardly, at high level play they are still too strong.
Obviously they manage extremely well, you don't. Hence if anything is broken its you, not the race.
On April 09 2010 16:50 GoDannY wrote: This is a beta game and most people tend to discuss balance issues since we are all more or less new to this game. However high level players or players who claim deeper insight in the game mechanics (which excludes me of course) might feel insulted by posts like "zerg cant win" or "there is no possibility to do XYZ" - since it is way to early to say what is possible and what not. Plus it might cause a wave (remember, we are all newbies in this game) of those who feel "difficulties" through their leak of insight which leads to a huge balance issue on a higher level.
Especially because this is a beta there is no point in calling out "X cant win anymore". You have to expect changes to the balance and be ready to learn to play again from scratch. Too many people are stuck in their "I must win to get to Rank 1 Plat league"-mentality while forgetting the true purpose of the Beta: learning how to use every unit a race has and trying every trick it can do. I know I will be pretty annoyed WITH MYSELF when I play a 1v1 and face a Zerg who has Medivacs floating over his Roaches and sieged Tanks behind them (I plan on playing Terran myself).
Sure some changes will change the game to look different from what you expect, but no one said you have to be able to win with spending the same amount of resources and then going for an open head-on confrontation. At this point it the expectation of the player and his inability to adapt to changes which lets him lose more often than the actual changes.
Sometimes outmacroing is the only way you can defeat a turtle who is teching hardcore and Zerg with their spew-larva ability and relatively cheap Hatcheries (350 minerals is less than 400 for Terran / Protoss) have the easiest way to expand and outmacro. If you dont like macroing thats not an imbalance of the game but rather your own fault.
From my Starcraft 1 experience I know I never learned to use a High Templar properly, but since I acknowledge this mistake now I hope to do better in SC2. If you find your own blind spots it might actually help you evolve into a better player.
On April 09 2010 16:05 Geo.Rion wrote: yeah, i agree with you on many points The only viable option is to force the opponent to make mistakes, with faking tech or mutaharass and exp a whole lot, and pull out a roach army. Rushing to ultras is not viable, mas muta cannot win, hydras are useless, lings/blings cannot break a well rounded army, so Zergs are left to mass that nerfed-insect, roach. Pre-patch when Hydras werent useless it was different, you could fight on even-ish terms mid-game. Patch 8 totally screwed up the game in my opinion. Seriously 80 hp Tier 2 unit? are you serious Blizzard?
If by even terms mid-game you mean that zerg would totally rape any kind of protoss combo with pure roach/hydra (given that the toss didn't manage to do any serious damage with timed pushes/void rays/etc), then yes, it was totally even terms.
Really it's just been whine whine whine whine ever since beta first came out. Just go with the patches and find more clever ways to play. That's why it's a beta. Everyone wants to just build a bunch of crap and steamroll, then they think it's balanced. Well you can't. Deal with it, or change races.
Also I like how templars are considered "effective against everything" when they really suck hugely vs most of everything. There's little damage dealt over too long of a time span on a very small radius. I'd take Fungal Growth over storm ANYDAY.
On April 09 2010 14:15 Ryuu314 wrote: Zerg has the ability to mass up enormous armies in a matter of minutes. You just lost a 100 supply army? No matter. You can replace in 5 minutes. Zerg is the aggressor race. You don't wait around for them to mass an army so you can counter it; you make an army and force them to counter you. If you're playing defensively and counter what your opponents do you're playing Zerg completely wrong. If that's how you like to play then switch to Protoss or Terran.
...
You underestimate the power of Zerg production capability WAY too much. The larva mechanic allows you to create any army composition near-instantaneously.
I'm getting kind of annoyed with these statements. Other than 1) the fact that 5 minutes is a long period of time and if you just trashed 100 supply worth of army and don't yourself do anything for the next 5 minutes, it's your fault but 2) it's not like Zerg is sitting around with infinite minerals and gas all the time. Sure you're not building 12 hatcheries late game like you did in BW to get comparable larva production but if you think about it queens cost half a hatchery already. Well worth it, and I love the mechanic, but Zerg could always do this--they just needed more hatches.
It does to some degree reward bad macro in that people engage their zomgamove army and then watch/micro that without macroing and then go back to their hatchery with the minerals they accumulated and spawn a huge army because they were macroing poorly in the first place, but once again you could do this with more hatcheries.
One thing they might consider changing about spawn larva, however, is it does feel strange how you can keep injecting even after one round of larva has spawned and you haven't used them yet--the production Zerg can do after being maxed and waiting for a few injects to go off before engaging is somewhat unsettling. Usually in these cases they're already won though, and once again if you threw down more hatcheries in BW, you could effectively do this too.
I like zerg in this patch. They nerfed marauder so terran has to wait for an extra 100 gas and research time to push out of his base.
Zerg actually has to play well to win games in this patch. Units that don't hard counter roach actually work vs roaches now. You aren't completely fucked if you dont have an immortal when the roach hits.
I don't think zerg armies were intended to be able to fight toe to toe at equal tech/resource with protoss/terran.
I've had alot of success with speedling/muta lately. Finally roach every game is no longer the best strategy.
They should buff hydra speed movement slightly off creep. Other than that I think Zerg is fine. Nerf Immortals to like 18+20 or something so they dont 4 shot hydras.
tbh i dont know what you mean, i think your trying to say zerg is weak but that would make you retarded...so im not sure exactly what to say.
If you think zerg is weak then you dont know nothing about anything, zerg right now is the most op race in SC2, last patches reduced this margin preaty well but they still are the most op. i mean the first quote you rage on "Ohh no... He walled in... I should just GG now?" means you know nothing about the mu or just try and 2hatch each game and go OMFGBBQ when your first 6 lings from your 13pool dont get in the T's base.
zerg doesn't have to be agrresive ealry, it can very easily but it doesn't have to to win. zerg is the most moblie race, with fast ground and air units zerg harassment can be the best in the game and should be used as much as possible, don't mean you have to harass every 2-5 minutes to win... just sperates the men from the boyz is all.
Ahh... No, its 300 base + 50 for the cost of using up a drone.
Your first post, was a fail, sorry.
As for the zerg issue, well I havent figured out a way to counter it as of now (other than being agressive AND lucky/better to take down that FE asap).
I'm a firm believer in the efficiency of divide and conquer, as in destroy 1 or multiple expo or important tech buildings while moving your main force elsewhere. Taking into account how fast buildings are destroyed in Sc2, all it takes to kill an hatch is a dropship's worth of units. I'm often doing the same mistakes having my army in a single bulk, a la Wc3.
I'm not going to say that zerg isn't broke yet. Instead i'm going to send you in the direction i'm going right now with zerg. I've seen that many of the zergs armies can get raped by splash damage as the game enters the mid sized army stages of the game. Like people have noticed, tanks rape hydras and roaches. Hellions can rape zerglings, These colossus immortal stalker temp armies seem to run over zerg. Now with the temp upgrade, temps are even more effective against hydralisks. In a 1 on 1 match when the other player has got the unit composition they require, it seems like zerg can just get run over. This is true. On the other hand the tanks are slow compared to zerglings. Vikings are slow compared to mutas. And everything is slow compared to Nydus network. And on the other hand, 4 zerglings>1 zealot in comparable money, 3 zerglings> 1 stalker which makes quite a large gap. 3 zerglings>1 marauder There are many other examples of this, against many of the races other non-splash type units. Also, zerg properly macroed, has incredible versatility when it comes to when they choose to build units and en mass. Mass zerglings can come at 2 mins. Mass zergling baneling can come at about 5:10-5:40 mins. Zergling can just get a light defense early, build more drone, and then just mass an endless unstopable production later on. And their speed is unrivaled. The player has to fear moving out at any random time, 2 mins 5 mins 7 mins 10 mins. They have to fear zerglings running by into their main. They have to fear a nydus network going up. They have to fear that they dont have enough vikings to win against the much WEAKER yet FASTER muta army. So I leave you with that. Know that zerg have the dominant army against many non splash unit compositions. Know that zerg are much faster and more mobile than all the other races by a HUGE margin, even more so in sc2 than sc1. Know that the other player has to fear that speed at all times, and has to be certain before he pushes out. Know that zerg can use all that to out macro, out expand, just plain out produce your opponent. Know that zerg is a builders race. Your strength and skill with zerg will depend on how well you produce enough of each unit at required times. Know that zerg OWNS and will continue to own in sc2 ! gl with zerg
i realise that but your a drone down so you need another +50 to have the same amount once again without it your lower in your income count so its 400
Fine, then CC is 400 + mineral lost by that SCV not harvesting? I get your point but its not the reasoning behind zerg having advantage early. The main difference is the time needed to save 300 mineral, which enables you to lay it down faster than their counterpart, not the cost once its up.
Once that hatch is down, with creep and some lings/crawler+queen support, it is really hard to take out early before getting simply outharvested/outmassed. Edit: Apologies for not reading the wall of text.
i realise that but your a drone down so you need another +50 to have the same amount once again without it your lower in your income count so its 400
Fine, then CC is 400 + mineral lost by that SCV not harvesting? I get your point but its not the reasoning behind zerg having advantage early. The main difference is the time needed to save 300 mineral, which enables you to lay it down faster than their counterpart, not the cost once its up.
Once that hatch is down, with creep and some lings/crawler+queen support, it is really hard to take out early before getting simply outharvested/outmassed. Edit: Apologies for not reading the wall of text.
I agree that because zerg only has to save up 300 to build a hatchery its still faster then the other races But its the tought that it eventually costs the same & not 50less then the other races mb my train of toughts is just "wrong" while its still correct in some way i guess it just depends how you look at it
On April 09 2010 23:19 Prae wrote: I agree that because zerg only has to save up 300 to build a hatchery its still faster then the other races But its the tought that it eventually costs the same & not 50less then the other races mb my train of toughts is just "wrong" while its still correct in some way i guess it just depends how you look at it
The thing is that by expanding further you not only add another point where Drones can deliver minerals and gas, but you also add a potential three barracks / warpgates / ... So if a terran is expanding once I would always expand one more time and maybe skip the second queen at my main/natural combo to make it work fast enough. With a third hatchery you are probably guaranteed either:
not being scouted at the hidden expo (probably true for 4-player maps) or
the opponent wasting time on destroying / harrassing that one. In this case you get more time to prepare and an estimate about his forces too.
In any case you are up in production capability and sometimes an extra expo beats a queen as TheLittleOne showed us. Your economy should even beat a Terran with two OCs and you should have enough larvae to produce everything needed to overrun the opposition.
On April 09 2010 23:31 thez wrote: You're forgetting about overlords too. CC's and Nexus provide supply. Hatcheries don't
Hatcheries do actually. 1 Supply I think it is.
To the OP. Most of your concerns can be applied to BW zerg too. The great advantage Zerg has is the flexability of it's macro and the maneurvability of it's forces. Admittedly this requires a higher level of play and it's not easy.
The truth is if Zerg can go head to head to with other races with equal supply then it's actually imbalanced in favour of Zerg. The flexability of Zerg makes them very good at defending against cheese yet being economically ahead. The trick is to time your army production as late as possible so you are greatly ahead in economy when the opponents attack comes in. All good Zergs know this already.
best bet is to watch DIMAGA or korean pro replays. They really show the true power of zerg.
I do agree zerg is the weakest race right now (and im a P player now), but it isnt that far behind. The only matchup I think is totally bad is ZvT, everything else is balanced.
On April 09 2010 23:56 Klive5ive wrote: The trick is to time your army production as late as possible so you are greatly ahead in economy when the opponents attack comes in. All good Zergs know this already.
I was just about to add something to my post above, but this puts it very nicely. I have a feeling that the queen has made Zerg players become complacent about expanding. This seems to be a miscalculation and the sentence above is a good motto to keep in mind IMO. Even in BW Zerg players built Sunken Colonies to defend, but in SC2 Zerg tend to ignore it as "static defense which cant be used to attack". As long as Roaches were IMBA it was possible to simply mass them and swamp the opponent fast, but now there needs to be a change in strategy away from super early aggression towards super early expansion (with defensive play) and then getting a huge army from an economic advantage. Blizzard even made Spine Crawlers do decent damage and their ability to move on creep allows you to use them to cover a slow advance and strategic placement ... in other words to become part of your offense.
Besides a major issue with zerg diversity and lack of opportunity to do anything interesting, I think a lot of the problems you discuss have to do with the poor map design.
Once we have bases with multiple entrances and chokes that can't be blocked by a dust ball, we'll see the game develop much more.
I'm ranked 3 platinum and all of my matches are zerg. (except one, where i accidently randomed, got protoss and didnt know WTF to do so i got some zealots/sentries and went early robo for observer and got an immortal, turns out he watned to thor rush me with 2 thors in a proxy, and like 30 SCVs. Good think i could crono boost, and thors do 20 a hit to Immortals, as immortals do 55 to thors ^^)
Anyways, the ONLY MU i find hard is ZvZ.
Vs Protoss Earlier: they always tried immortal push, so FE into early speedling was a win if they didnt wall of properly.
I used to be 17-2 against protoss... thats where i got all my wins.
Vs Protoss Now: Protoss like to get alot more of an early zealot/sentry compilation, so once i scout this and he blocked his ramp, i switch directly into getting a few roaches, and try to get some Mutas out early to harass, as Sentries > Mutas, but Mutas can harass mad eco, once you get 5 or more out. Also, by now you have your main base, AND an expo saturated, and once you see him expo Hello speedling/roach rush with +1 carapace if hes going for +1 dmg. Watch him cancel his nexus to your army and GG ragequit.
I'm about a 1:1 ratio with protoss more recently wtih this Zealot/Sentry compilation as i've tried puer speedlings too many times.
Vs Old Terran: MUTA RUSH. It would always do a GREAT deal harassing them, as the turrets did nearly half the damage to Mutas before, so they would have to have >2 to stop as little at 5-6 mutas out early, and Thors never had AOE air, so these were no problem at all.
I would say i was 2:1 win ratio against old terran.
Vs New Terran: With alot of terrans still doing MMM, but some transitioning into Early Hellion into Mech (This usually destroys me, as i never like to get roaches against terran as Marauders > Roaches by too much) But pretty much what you must do is: Once you see one supply depot going up on his wall, BANELING burst with the proper timing with about 24 Zerglings. If you notice he has a decent army up by then due to a large map (desert oasis), such as 3-4 marauders, and 5-6 Marines, i tend to run most of my Z-lings straight to the mineral line, and do as much early damage as possible, OR if it's a smaller map such as Lost temple, where he can be quite close than i focus his units, que up my speedlings, and inject as much as possible, until I win, or he walls up in time. If he does, i IMMEDIATLY expo, and work on economy, as he will be building up an army to DEFEND most likely, and not take an offensive. Although i must say, Terran is the strongest race at the moment right now.
I'd say close to 1:1 ratio now, due to the fact that if they hellion rush, they have 2-3 up before i bust + marines, and on a larger map as much to 4-5 up which will demolish my Banelings as the run up, same with my speedlings. (Hellion rush > most zerg now-adays as Roaches arent a viable option due to marauders being able to outmicro)
Vs old Zerg: Roach fest. srrrrrr, timing +1 attacks.
Vs new Zerg: Sometime Roach fest, other times Speedlings into early mutas.
ZvZ is where the majority of my losses come from. I'm probably 0.75:1, or 0.66:1 in this, as i'll try one strat that i lost to last game, but then the NEXT opponents strat counters mine... I'm leaning towards FE speedlings +1 + early mutas now though. (if anyone wants, im in the... US server i think? I'm canadian, but i need a ZvZ practice partner. Anyoen in high gold, or mid-high plat will do. PM me, or add BigDates.dayton)
Summary: Zerg can fare well, as if you do choose to expand quite early, you can still usually pump enough units out fast enough to defend and Macro, mostly on maps with a natural defending the main route up (to defend against Hellion / Speedling harass mainly) otherwise. not many terran will decide to engage your army, as well burrowed banelings, and speedlings > terrans earlygame since the 20 + 15 on banelings, and if they get medivacs, hope you can get baneling speed reall fast with some roaches and z-lings, and Hydras to gun down those medis, or Mutas for harassiment.
i think as it stands, only terran needs to lose a bit of their AA abilties, or somehow hinder Hellion rushes.. (maybe by decreasing the range from that of a marine... as Roaches with speed upg on blight move about the same speed as hellions, off the blight they are too slow, and speedlings can EASILY be kited with the +10 to light UPG. Just IMO.
But yeah, Zerg isnt lacking too much, i WISH i could think so, but i cant. Terran is more OP though
On April 10 2010 00:10 Vexx wrote: Besides a major issue with zerg diversity and lack of opportunity to do anything interesting, I think a lot of the problems you discuss have to do with the poor map design.
Once we have bases with multiple entrances and chokes that can't be blocked by a dust ball, we'll see the game develop much more.
Protoss arent usually walling in and the Baneling bust has made depots somewhat of an Achilles heel if a Terran does it. I certainly dont see your point, because it works both ways. You can block the choke with minimal effort as a Zerg too, so the usual quick "bad map design" argument doesnt work for me. Zerg especially have the potential to use mass drops (one upgrade to allow all Overlords to act as shuttles) or use a Nydus into the base and thus circumvent any chokes ... but they arent using it.
"Bases with multiple entrances and chokes that can't be blocked" is an argument that signals an attitude which doesnt want to bother with learning to crack a defense. Wide open bases would give Zerg a totally unfair advantage due to their mobility. Everyone can block a choke and thus these maps are much fairer.
"lack of opportunity to do anything interesting" translates into "lack of imagination" for me. Scroll up to see a lot of suggestions for "interesting play", although most do not involve the boring "rung up to him and punch him in the face"-direct confrontation style.
On April 09 2010 16:05 Geo.Rion wrote: yeah, i agree with you on many points The only viable option is to force the opponent to make mistakes, with faking tech or mutaharass and exp a whole lot, and pull out a roach army. Rushing to ultras is not viable, mas muta cannot win, hydras are useless, lings/blings cannot break a well rounded army, so Zergs are left to mass that nerfed-insect, roach. Pre-patch when Hydras werent useless it was different, you could fight on even-ish terms mid-game. Patch 8 totally screwed up the game in my opinion. Seriously 80 hp Tier 2 unit? are you serious Blizzard?
If by even terms mid-game you mean that zerg would totally rape any kind of protoss combo with pure roach/hydra (given that the toss didn't manage to do any serious damage with timed pushes/void rays/etc), then yes, it was totally even terms.
Really it's just been whine whine whine whine ever since beta first came out. Just go with the patches and find more clever ways to play. That's why it's a beta. Everyone wants to just build a bunch of crap and steamroll, then they think it's balanced. Well you can't. Deal with it, or change races.
Also I like how templars are considered "effective against everything" when they really suck hugely vs most of everything. There's little damage dealt over too long of a time span on a very small radius. I'd take Fungal Growth over storm ANYDAY.
I am not whining. I Want to be able to make a mixed army that does well.
I cant defend these massive expansions for 1 of 2 reasons.
1) My army is pitifully sized because I spent my econ on expanding/saturating or 2) My army just gets steamrolled by a well rounded enemy force.
I keep hearing how everyones winning with Zerg. Perhaps Someone might post some replays of these Zvt and ZvP wins?
In my experiance, If i fast expand he pushes sooner and breaks me with a larger force of superior units... if i dont fast expand i lose the macro game.
I cant find at chokes. Splash decimates me.
And honestly the other races have it far easier to harrass/cheese. Why? Wall in.
If I cheese, i leave myself open to a counter.
If a toss cheese.. even if I counter I have to break downa wall + zealots + canons
On April 09 2010 14:09 Floophead_III wrote: Lol? This is not how zerg works right now at all.
If any player lets zerg sit around while they mass up an army, they will be demolished as soon as they poke out of their base. Zerg's ability to mass up drones then mass up the perfect counter to whatever army they spot is unreal with spawn larva.
Theres no way thats true. Terran turtled army or Protoss turtled army would be far superior to a zerg turtled army. It seems like I always hear people giving conflicting advice. I have most trouble against Zvt (like 10% win rate), and fair trouble against ZvP (50% win rate after patch) , my Zvz is like 90% win rate. I am top Platinum ranking.
So for example sometimes if I lose a game and ask an opponent what I did wrong I've heard so much conflicting stuff. I hear that zerg needs to get an expansion late, and then other times ill hear zerg needs to get an expansion early, other times ill hear zerg cant just mass up they have to whittle down opponents army because zerg army stands litteraly 0% chance to beat a maxed out Protoss army, and then like the above post, ill hear that zerg has to turtle up big armies...Likewise Ill hear the spine crawlers are way better than roaches to defend helions. Others will say roaches are the best way... I have no idea what to believe as everyone is giving completely contradictory advice.
Maybe its because the beta hasn't been out long enough but it basically seems to me like theres still no standard play for the zerg yet. The best advice I've been given in ZvP is to make a shit load of speedlings early on. That does seem to work. However, I'm still trying to find out real advice in ZvT that actually works, so far I have not found any. When I watch my replays and think "how could I have beaten T" the only thing that comes to mind is "I couldn't".
I think the biggest problem in ZvT is actually the fact that zerg can't scout T. I think there needs to be some way to do that, maybe make burrow a tier 1 upgrade or something so u can just burrow a unit in Ts base as a scout.
On April 09 2010 14:09 Floophead_III wrote: Lol? This is not how zerg works right now at all.
If any player lets zerg sit around while they mass up an army, they will be demolished as soon as they poke out of their base. Zerg's ability to mass up drones then mass up the perfect counter to whatever army they spot is unreal with spawn larva.
Theres no way thats true. Terran turtled army or Protoss turtled army would be far superior to a zerg turtled army. It seems like I always hear people giving conflicting advice. I have most trouble against Zvt (like 10% win rate), and fair trouble against ZvP (50% win rate after patch) , my Zvz is like 90% win rate. I am top Platinum ranking.
So for example sometimes if I lose a game and ask an opponent what I did wrong I've heard so much conflicting stuff. I hear that zerg needs to get an expansion late, and then other times ill hear zerg needs to get an expansion early, other times ill hear zerg cant just mass up they have to whittle down opponents army because zerg army stands litteraly 0% chance to beat a maxed out Protoss army, and then like the above post, ill hear that zerg has to turtle up big armies...Likewise Ill hear the spine crawlers are way better than roaches to defend helions. Others will say roaches are the best way... I have no idea what to believe as everyone is giving completely contradictory advice.
Maybe its because the beta hasn't been out long enough but it basically seems to me like theres still no standard play for the zerg yet. The best advice I've been given in ZvP is to make a shit load of speedlings early on. That does seem to work. However, I'm still trying to find out real advice in ZvT that actually works, so far I have not found any. When I watch my replays and think "how could I have beaten T" the only thing that comes to mind is "I couldn't".
I think the biggest problem in ZvT is actually the fact that zerg can't scout T. I think there needs to be some way to do that, maybe make burrow a tier 1 upgrade or something so u can just burrow a unit in Ts base as a scout.
while Im just a lowly Gold player this is my experiance in a nutshell.
I am not good, but I can look at my replays and ask myself what I could have done differently and I might have an extra 5-6 hydras or roaches but the end result is the same.
My army gets decimated into the dirt.
I wonder if returning Hydralisk speed might do a lot to give zerg the mobility it needs to harrass.
Right now it is easier and safer to run around in a Terran or Toss ball than it is to try and be agress with hydras slowing you down. And then retreating becomes a joke.
Ok I will try to respond to both posters above me in reverse order:
@Disastorm: Neither is true, it depends on the style of play. In sc2 there's not much to go on because of the constant changing of gameplay and the game itself, but turtling has the advantage of building up a strong eco while defending with minimum forces, while being hella aggressive has the advantage of pressuring your opponent in exchange for great economy. It doesn't mean that if zerg "turtles" and just builds up slowly it will die late game. On the contrary, if you try to take down expos and you can't (he just barely manages to save them) then in the long run he will overrun you. Likewise, if you're overly excited with zerg and attack all the time without doing the needed amount of damage, you will get overrun in the end due to poor eco. The trick is to be good at what you're doing. If you turtle then don't lose expands and don't get overrun before your eco kicks in, and if you are aggressive then do as much damage as possible in order to eventually take down your enemy.
@durron The trick is, again, to find balance. If you want replays go to the "Smuft Tourney" and download the replay pack. There are about 3 ZvTs in the finals where zerg just macros up. Also there are many others in the Zotac packs. Did you even bother looking for replays?
As for fighting at chokes... zerg has many other viable options: nydus, mass overlord drop, or even better: not attacking. Why waste troops when you can expand and use them for defense? Also when toss cheeses he loses eco, tech, he sometimes even gets cannons out of one base to defend. You only lose your advantage if you fight mindlessly.
Bottom line is, as long as you know what you want to do and use your units to the best of their abilities you should do fine.
On April 10 2010 02:26 CubEdIn wrote: Ok I will try to respond to both posters above me in reverse order:
@Disastorm: Neither is true, it depends on the style of play. In sc2 there's not much to go on because of the constant changing of gameplay and the game itself, but turtling has the advantage of building up a strong eco while defending with minimum forces, while being hella aggressive has the advantage of pressuring your opponent in exchange for great economy. It doesn't mean that if zerg "turtles" and just builds up slowly it will die late game. On the contrary, if you try to take down expos and you can't (he just barely manages to save them) then in the long run he will overrun you. Likewise, if you're overly excited with zerg and attack all the time without doing the needed amount of damage, you will get overrun in the end due to poor eco. The trick is to be good at what you're doing. If you turtle then don't lose expands and don't get overrun before your eco kicks in, and if you are aggressive then do as much damage as possible in order to eventually take down your enemy.
@durron The trick is, again, to find balance. If you want replays go to the "Smuft Tourney" and download the replay pack. There are about 3 ZvTs in the finals where zerg just macros up. Also there are many others in the Zotac packs. Did you even bother looking for replays?
As for fighting at chokes... zerg has many other viable options: nydus, mass overlord drop, or even better: not attacking. Why waste troops when you can expand and use them for defense? Also when toss cheeses he loses eco, tech, he sometimes even gets cannons out of one base to defend. You only lose your advantage if you fight mindlessly.
Bottom line is, as long as you know what you want to do and use your units to the best of their abilities you should do fine.
Right. And that would be great if your army could put up a decent defense. I have not found a unit comp that can effectively fight Zeal/Stalk/Immortal/COllossi or MMMTank
On April 10 2010 02:26 CubEdIn wrote: Ok I will try to respond to both posters above me in reverse order:
@Disastorm: Neither is true, it depends on the style of play. In sc2 there's not much to go on because of the constant changing of gameplay and the game itself, but turtling has the advantage of building up a strong eco while defending with minimum forces, while being hella aggressive has the advantage of pressuring your opponent in exchange for great economy. It doesn't mean that if zerg "turtles" and just builds up slowly it will die late game. On the contrary, if you try to take down expos and you can't (he just barely manages to save them) then in the long run he will overrun you. Likewise, if you're overly excited with zerg and attack all the time without doing the needed amount of damage, you will get overrun in the end due to poor eco. The trick is to be good at what you're doing. If you turtle then don't lose expands and don't get overrun before your eco kicks in, and if you are aggressive then do as much damage as possible in order to eventually take down your enemy.
@durron The trick is, again, to find balance. If you want replays go to the "Smuft Tourney" and download the replay pack. There are about 3 ZvTs in the finals where zerg just macros up. Also there are many others in the Zotac packs. Did you even bother looking for replays?
As for fighting at chokes... zerg has many other viable options: nydus, mass overlord drop, or even better: not attacking. Why waste troops when you can expand and use them for defense? Also when toss cheeses he loses eco, tech, he sometimes even gets cannons out of one base to defend. You only lose your advantage if you fight mindlessly.
Bottom line is, as long as you know what you want to do and use your units to the best of their abilities you should do fine.
Right. And that would be great if your army could put up a decent defense. I have not found a unit comp that can effectively fight Zeal/Stalk/Immortal/COllossi or MMMTank
As I said, watch the replays before saying things like that. And saying zerg cannot scout is also ridiculous. At tier two you have a ton of scouts, at tier one you can just run your ling up the ramp and see army composition, or lose an overlord to scout base. Protoss has to build cyber->robo->obs (that costs 100 gas) to get an observer and you can't be bothered to get a lair and a 50/50 upgrade?
On April 10 2010 00:10 Vexx wrote: Besides a major issue with zerg diversity and lack of opportunity to do anything interesting, I think a lot of the problems you discuss have to do with the poor map design.
Once we have bases with multiple entrances and chokes that can't be blocked by a dust ball, we'll see the game develop much more.
Protoss arent usually walling in and the Baneling bust has made depots somewhat of an Achilles heel if a Terran does it. I certainly dont see your point, because it works both ways. You can block the choke with minimal effort as a Zerg too, so the usual quick "bad map design" argument doesnt work for me. Zerg especially have the potential to use mass drops (one upgrade to allow all Overlords to act as shuttles) or use a Nydus into the base and thus circumvent any chokes ... but they arent using it.
"Bases with multiple entrances and chokes that can't be blocked" is an argument that signals an attitude which doesnt want to bother with learning to crack a defense. Wide open bases would give Zerg a totally unfair advantage due to their mobility. Everyone can block a choke and thus these maps are much fairer.
"lack of opportunity to do anything interesting" translates into "lack of imagination" for me. Scroll up to see a lot of suggestions for "interesting play", although most do not involve the boring "rung up to him and punch him in the face"-direct confrontation style.
Sorry for trying to help. I must have mistakenly conveyed the impression that I was having trouble too because your post is just full of unnecessary aggression.
The absence of interesting strategy is a comparison to other races. It's no secret zerg has no special abilities and only one caster unit. Yea, you've got speedling harass, baneling bust, muta harass, but you don't have have cloaked banshees, you don't drop nukes, you can't siege, heal or stim. You can't DT rush, void ray rush, walk or blink up cliffs or block paths with forcefield.
So I guess my lack of imagination made me focus too much on ling, bling, roach, hydra, and mutas and caused me to miss the other 7 awesome zerg units that everyone uses to make cool strategies.
Sorry for suggesting that maps should diversify the game and not limit it to frontal attacks and back door drops through small chokes and cliffs on every map. What was I thinking? I really need to get rid of this bad attitude that makes me refuse to learn.
On April 09 2010 14:00 XJungWonx wrote: then you should play protoss or terran until zerg is balanced
People who think like this should have their beta keys taken away and punched in the face.
This is beta for fucks sake... why do people care so much about their ranking? People act like we have already evolved sc2 races to their ultimate metagame and there is no advancements to be made. If you're struggling with zerg or any race then try different shit out. Giving up because you can't win the majority of the games doesn't mean the race is broken.
People like that should be strung up. Sigh why couldn't I get a key .
I still dont understand this "If your opponent turtles just expand!" saying..
Ok if your opponent ONLY made static D sure. But a good person isn't doing this. He will make a few static D and an ARMY behind his walls and then tech/macro to his hearts content.
Meanwhile you saw him turtle so you expand and go "bro load +3 +3 +3!!!"
Oh wait this good opponent, saw you expand, now he knows he has more units, better units, and higher tech... so he just pushes you , kills your expo and either finishes you off or expands himself.
The lack of abiltity to put preasure on early certainly huts Zerg imho
what a useless post. its just a wall of text that could have been replaced by "the people im playing are better then me and instead of learning to play i want to blame it on the game". go back to wc3, SC isnt the game for you, thats my advice.
On April 09 2010 16:05 Geo.Rion wrote: yeah, i agree with you on many points The only viable option is to force the opponent to make mistakes, with faking tech or mutaharass and exp a whole lot, and pull out a roach army. Rushing to ultras is not viable, mas muta cannot win, hydras are useless, lings/blings cannot break a well rounded army, so Zergs are left to mass that nerfed-insect, roach. Pre-patch when Hydras werent useless it was different, you could fight on even-ish terms mid-game. Patch 8 totally screwed up the game in my opinion. Seriously 80 hp Tier 2 unit? are you serious Blizzard?
If by even terms mid-game you mean that zerg would totally rape any kind of protoss combo with pure roach/hydra (given that the toss didn't manage to do any serious damage with timed pushes/void rays/etc), then yes, it was totally even terms.
Really it's just been whine whine whine whine ever since beta first came out. Just go with the patches and find more clever ways to play. That's why it's a beta. Everyone wants to just build a bunch of crap and steamroll, then they think it's balanced. Well you can't. Deal with it, or change races.
Also I like how templars are considered "effective against everything" when they really suck hugely vs most of everything. There's little damage dealt over too long of a time span on a very small radius. I'd take Fungal Growth over storm ANYDAY.
I am not whining. I Want to be able to make a mixed army that does well.
I cant defend these massive expansions for 1 of 2 reasons.
1) My army is pitifully sized because I spent my econ on expanding/saturating or 2) My army just gets steamrolled by a well rounded enemy force.
I keep hearing how everyones winning with Zerg. Perhaps Someone might post some replays of these Zvt and ZvP wins?
In my experiance, If i fast expand he pushes sooner and breaks me with a larger force of superior units... if i dont fast expand i lose the macro game.
I cant find at chokes. Splash decimates me.
And honestly the other races have it far easier to harrass/cheese. Why? Wall in.
If I cheese, i leave myself open to a counter.
If a toss cheese.. even if I counter I have to break downa wall + zealots + canons
On April 09 2010 16:05 Geo.Rion wrote: yeah, i agree with you on many points The only viable option is to force the opponent to make mistakes, with faking tech or mutaharass and exp a whole lot, and pull out a roach army. Rushing to ultras is not viable, mas muta cannot win, hydras are useless, lings/blings cannot break a well rounded army, so Zergs are left to mass that nerfed-insect, roach. Pre-patch when Hydras werent useless it was different, you could fight on even-ish terms mid-game. Patch 8 totally screwed up the game in my opinion. Seriously 80 hp Tier 2 unit? are you serious Blizzard?
If by even terms mid-game you mean that zerg would totally rape any kind of protoss combo with pure roach/hydra (given that the toss didn't manage to do any serious damage with timed pushes/void rays/etc), then yes, it was totally even terms.
Really it's just been whine whine whine whine ever since beta first came out. Just go with the patches and find more clever ways to play. That's why it's a beta. Everyone wants to just build a bunch of crap and steamroll, then they think it's balanced. Well you can't. Deal with it, or change races.
Also I like how templars are considered "effective against everything" when they really suck hugely vs most of everything. There's little damage dealt over too long of a time span on a very small radius. I'd take Fungal Growth over storm ANYDAY.
I am not whining. I Want to be able to make a mixed army that does well.
I cant defend these massive expansions for 1 of 2 reasons.
1) My army is pitifully sized because I spent my econ on expanding/saturating or 2) My army just gets steamrolled by a well rounded enemy force.
I keep hearing how everyones winning with Zerg. Perhaps Someone might post some replays of these Zvt and ZvP wins?
In my experiance, If i fast expand he pushes sooner and breaks me with a larger force of superior units... if i dont fast expand i lose the macro game.
I cant find at chokes. Splash decimates me.
And honestly the other races have it far easier to harrass/cheese. Why? Wall in.
If I cheese, i leave myself open to a counter.
If a toss cheese.. even if I counter I have to break downa wall + zealots + canons
On April 09 2010 14:00 XJungWonx wrote: then you should play protoss or terran until zerg is balanced
People who think like this should have their beta keys taken away and punched in the face.
This is beta for fucks sake... why do people care so much about their ranking? People act like we have already evolved sc2 races to their ultimate metagame and there is no advancements to be made. If you're struggling with zerg or any race then try different shit out. Giving up because you can't win the majority of the games doesn't mean the race is broken.
People like that should be strung up. Sigh why couldn't I get a key .
90% sure he's being sarcastic >.> telling this idiot to stop whining kinda indirectly. basically saying if you think your race is broken and cant be fixed/its impossible for you to win and you've stopped trying, just give up entirely rather than post a sob thread to the rest of us.
On April 10 2010 03:16 durron wrote: I still dont understand this "If your opponent turtles just expand!" saying..
Ok if your opponent ONLY made static D sure. But a good person isn't doing this. He will make a few static D and an ARMY behind his walls and then tech/macro to his hearts content.
Meanwhile you saw him turtle so you expand and go "bro load +3 +3 +3!!!"
Oh wait this good opponent, saw you expand, now he knows he has more units, better units, and higher tech... so he just pushes you , kills your expo and either finishes you off or expands himself.
The lack of abiltity to put preasure on early certainly huts Zerg imho
So let me get this straight:
Your opponent turtles off one base, and steamrolls you, and you think Z is imba? How about this: 1. Keep a zergling or 2-3 at his front door to make sure you know when he leaves the base. 2. Don't expand like a maniac since your natural is more than enough to take down 1-base play 3. Sacrifice a ling now and then to see his unit composition, and build accordingly 4. Get a few static defenses yourself. You can afford it since you have expand and he doesn't. 5. Don't build JUST drones or JUST army. Find a nice mix between the two and think ahead "what do I want to build towards?"
Basically, you're shouting that zerg is imba when you clearly have poor mechanics (1 base play always wins vs you = poor mechanics). I suggest you go and play 100 more games, and watch a few decent zergs play vs terr and toss, and then try to argue with 50 people that are telling you that it's not a "game problem" it's a "you're pretty bad" problem.
Edit: also, zerg's anti-reaper is ummm... QUEEN? Maybe if you wouldn't FE every game you'd realize that reaper harass is actually the WORST vs zerg, due to the queen. (is out way faster than stalker/doesn't die as easily as marines do to reap).
If terran goes 10 rax then maybe you should also 13-14pool instead of getting a hatch and there shouldn't be a problem. I even used 10pool in 2v2 games vs 2 terrans just to stop reapers and the queen comes out in time and is able to handle 2x reap harass. Maybe you guys should whine less and play more.
Ok so our awesome unitproduction makes up for it... except with reactors/warp in our production isnt even THAT much of an advantage. Heck it is almost a bit of a disadvantage being you have to split army/workers/supply up between them.
Awesome?
Late game Zerg unit production is broken.
Zerg can get 200/200 save larva, lose army and instantly spawn another 200/200 army in a matter of seconds.
Protoss and Terran can spawn another army but no where near as fast as Zerg that saved up larva before attacking. In order for Terran/toss to make an army as fast as Zerg they need to create more unit producing structures. Zerg just needs to keep spamming the r key on their queens.
19 larva is the max per hatchery right?
19x3=57. So assuming you have your main and 2 expos you can use 57 larva instantly, if you have the money. I doubt you're going to ever be able to create 57. But if you are constantly expanding and producing eventually you will hit 200/200 and your larva and money will be adding up. And since you don't have to spend 150 minerals (cost of a barracks/gateway) to inject larva you will then be able to use all 57 larva. But since you were expanding all game you will probably have another hatchery or 2. 4 Hatcheries with max larva = 76 larva total. 5 Hatcheries with max larva = 95 larva total.
It doesn't cost Zerg any money to increase their unit production capabilities just time. Spawn Larva time = 40 seconds. Gateway build time = 65 seconds. Barracks build time = 60 seconds.
And if you want to bring the queen build time into this...
Queen build time = 50 seconds Gateway > Warpgate build time = 10 seconds (You also have to research gateway > warpgate with a cybernetics core) Barrack's Reactor Addon = 50 seconds Barrack's Tech Lab Addon = 25 seconds
I'll try a summary of the best posts I've seen on this thread.
1) Zerg's #1 advantage: Production/Economy. Zerg have the easiest time fast expanding, and are able to capitalize on it faster than the other races. Now should you necessarily go all drones till you are blue in the face? No, but you can easily outdrone your opponent and build an army good enough to defend.
2) Tech Changes. While Terran/Toss have made strides in their adaptability, zerg still wins hands down. A battle might open with roach/hydra and then a swarm of lings come in to replace it.
Roaches are getting hammered by zealot/immortal army when suddenly a swarm of muta clean house.
Zerg's tech change is driven by its economy (point #1). You gain money faster than your opponent, so you can rebuild an army quicker, and that army can be of any form you choose.
3) Map Control. Because the zerg can expand easier than the other races, it gives them map control. And when the player comes to take your bases, it gives you opportunities to hit him in a spot he's weak, or to counterattack his own base.
Zerg cannot fight the other races on equal footing, but they don't have to.
Even when I win against zerg I feel I lose, because I rarely, if ever have fun, im always forced into making units scared that he will counter me with ease and knowing that if the game ever gets to the late game and I dont have a hugeass advantage I lost.
Roaches got a little nerfed? so what, zerg still is the race with most potential to own you by just playing a macrogame because they are constantly switching their army to what counters yours, while other races such as T you dont have that luxury, and in many situations you are fighting a superior army with a inferior army composition simply because its so easy for him to build whatever better counters you that its insane to try to make any solid unit composition against a Z.
On April 10 2010 04:06 D10 wrote: This is how broken zerg is (im T)
Even when I win against zerg I feel I lose, because I rarely, if ever have fun, im always forced into making units scared that he will counter me with ease and knowing that if the game ever gets to the late game and I dont have a hugeass advantage I lost.
Roaches got a little nerfed? so what, zerg still is the race with most potential to own you by just playing a macrogame because they are constantly switching their army to what counters yours, while other races such as T you dont have that luxury, and in many situations you are fighting a superior army with a inferior army composition simply because its so easy for him to build whatever better counters you that its insane to try to make any solid unit composition against a Z.
Not even gonna comment on nydus.
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my army dies and he is in my base demolishing it,
im not surewhat gameyour playing where your opponent doesnt kill your army than attack your base...
EPT
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