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I am going to post the best post I've seen on the issues that I see plague zerg....
Q u o t e:
i believe the strength of zerg is the ability to prevent those said super armys from ever being produced. Zerg can put an amazing amount of pressure on the enemy, adapting to whatever comes your way. A good zerg player should always have the appropriate units to deal with their enemy as they can tech switch instantly.
Ohh no... He walled in... I should just GG now? Really, I know what you're saying, but if you think in long term for the game... This can not hold to be true as players learn to stop you from stopping them from getting to the midgame units.
Q u o t e:
Marines? okay roaches..marauder+mech? cracklings! banshees? HYDRAS
Zealots? MOAR ROACHES..Stalker+sentry+immortal? Feed the lings more crack!+hydras+mutas!
You forgot Marines + Mauraders, which destroy Zerglings, Banelings, + Roaches. The fundamental problem with the matchup is that Marines = Zerglings (per tier), and Mauraders = Roaches (per tier / 1.5). Both Marines and Maraders are ranged and the Marauder out ranges the Roach. The Maurader hard counters the Roach. Zerglings may counter the Maurader in open field, but Marines counter the Zerglings. What happens is that the Mauraders and Marines slaughter the Zerglings as the zerglings attempt to close into melee range, and then the Mauraders wtfpown the Roaches. Once the forces collide, the advantage is greatly to the Terran.
Similarly, the Zealots own Zerglings. When these forces collide, the Zealots shread the Zerg front lines (Zerglings), and then the Protoss ranged units out range the Roach from behind the Zealots. Once Immortals come into play, the Zerg player has to withdraw the roaches or just let them die right these to open up more supply. The Zerg has to go Zerglings, and hope that the Protoss stops making Zealots. The zerg player is essentually defeated on the ground against the Protoss army. This gets worse once the Collossi comes into play. This is the reason most Zerg players Mass Mutalisks. It is due to the Protoss ground army being so superior to the zergs, that the only viable option is Air.
Q u o t e:
Zerg does lack hard counters, but imagine if zerg had hard counters? their ability to tech switch so quickly would win them battles no matter the circumstance as they could pump hard counters in within seconds.
The Zerg would still need to build the Units respective building. Big deal if from there he can build units from a hatchery instead of from that building... The other races can do exactly the same thing, but without sacrificing their production que for building zealots, Mauraders, Probes and SCVs etc. For the Zerg, larva have to be budgeted between 1. Workers, 2. Supply, 3. Military. Most non-zerg players think the Hatchery is all bonus, but Zerg players know that the Larva is more of a hindrence then a boon.
Q u o t e:
Play zerg like you are a disease or virus. Contain the enemy and wear him down..Never let him rest, Never let him mass anything, expand around him and spread your sight across the map. Whittle his forces down with every successful skirmish and worker raid. And then when the time is right... unleash the fury of the zerg from every angle on his base and take the match as your win.
You have it wrong. The play you described is how other players play against the Zerg. Once you add in Thors, Collossi, and Siege Tanks, the Zerg is the easiest thing in the game to choke and contain. All that mass expoing has to be done to achieve your first point, and that is to deatroy them before they can get the units which dominate every aspect of the game over the Zerg. Your first point wont hold up for long.
Basically the way I see it...
Zerg cant be aggressive because early game armies (6 pool cheese asside) destroy lings. By the time roaches is out they are hard countered by Mauraders and Immortals. To say nothing of wall offs.
Ok well thats fine, so we macro up... but wait. Our mid game army also gets demolished. Splash from storm/tank/colossi rapes our armies.
Ok so our awesome unitproduction makes up for it... except with reactors/warp in our production isnt even THAT much of an advantage. Heck it is almost a bit of a disadvantage being you have to split army/workers/supply up between them.
And then on top of this Zerg is the MOST susceptible to cheese like Banshee and Void Ray harass.
Zerg cant win early, cant win late. Where is the bunker busting "Dark swarm"m type ability.
As people get better at this game and are able to deny zerg harrass... what is zerg left with?
I am no pro. I still forget spawm larvae. But I can see what is infront of me. Every other race can sit in their base and make a well rounded army that will counter whatever zerg makes. Meanwhile Zerg , trying the same thing, will be demolished.
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Have you been playing the same beta I have? O_O
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honestly, i'm not a pro either. but recently i've been feeling exactly this way about playing zerg in beta. good post. will a zerg pro release a wealth of information that can save us? please! ;]
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then you should play protoss or terran until zerg is balanced
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is this your resignation?
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On April 09 2010 13:57 Ryuu314 wrote:
Have you been playing the same beta I have? O_O
mind elaborate?
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can you take this to PM please? It's noobish bickering and a waste of space.
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Lol? This is not how zerg works right now at all.
If any player lets zerg sit around while they mass up an army, they will be demolished as soon as they poke out of their base. Zerg's ability to mass up drones then mass up the perfect counter to whatever army they spot is unreal with spawn larva.
Are you using banelings correctly vs bio? Banelings are completely ridiculous. Speedlings can clean up the marauders fine with all the marines dead. Because zerg has no larva issues making mass ling armies is viable. Do it.
Vs mech you really need to be making nothing but roaches whenever possible. Hydras should be minimal and only there as needed. Mech can't handle mass roach.
Vs protoss you really should just mass speedling unless they skip the robo bay, then mass roach is probably better. One of the funnest things to do is get speedlings and backstab with them (or just run in if you can) and morph some to banelings while running the other ones around. Banelings finish and go for workers and let the (s)laughter ensue.
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floophead, please show yourself a little more respect and ignore these noobs. There is nothing to be gained by trying to reason with them.
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Zerg gets to macro the shit out of the entire map in the mean time, then pump an entire army at the last second as his opponent leaves his base.
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Let me elaborate on my post.
Zerg has the most imba macro mechanic out there. This is pretty much indisputable and this general sentiment is shared by pretty much every good SC/SC2 player. Inject larva allows you to not only tech switch very effectively, but it allows you to pump drones and recover from any economic harass done to you in less than 2 minutes. And apparently you've never done a ling all-in before they patched the unit pathing because that was one of the most ridiculous strategies around. Since they patched unit pathing it's less OMGWTF but it still does wonders when done to an unsuspecting player.
Zerg has the ability to mass up enormous armies in a matter of minutes. You just lost a 100 supply army? No matter. You can replace in 5 minutes. Zerg is the aggressor race. You don't wait around for them to mass an army so you can counter it; you make an army and force them to counter you. If you're playing defensively and counter what your opponents do you're playing Zerg completely wrong. If that's how you like to play then switch to Protoss or Terran.
Zerg has the easiest time expanding. Why? Because for one their hatcheries only cost 300 while CCs and Nexuses cost 400. This means you can expand earlier and more often. In addition, the ease at which Zerg can mass armies means that you can get an army to defend your expos quickly and easily.
You underestimate the power of Zerg production capability WAY too much. The larva mechanic allows you to create any army composition near-instantaneously. The only thing preventing that from being totally broken in BW was the rate at which larva spawned. That limit is now somewhat removed with the Queen macro mechanic. Hence the bit about Zerg having the most imba macro mechanic. Like I said earlier, Zerg needs to be the aggressor. Mass mutas and force the Protoss to get Stalkers. Now switch to mass cracklings and laugh as those Stalkers melt to the claws of your lings. He got Colossi? Okay, make a crapton of Corruptors and enjoy killing expensive shit that can't even hit back. He got more stalkers again? Okay morph your Corruptors into Brood Lords, the strongest "ultimate" unit in the game and just roflstomp your opponent.
Obviously I exaggerated a bit (okay...maybe more than a bit) but you see the point? Either you're just really bad or you're playing Zerg wrong. Post some replays?
EDIT: What floophead said can also be done. Just drone whoring then macro-ing an army that counters your opponent's can work, but I find that it's usually more effective when a Zerg is the aggressor, not the defender.
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infestor
fungal growth vs zealots, vs rines, vs marauders - heck - any small'ish (massed) ground unit
it may not kill them directly but the immobilty is stronger than sentries' force fields.
also; not letting mutas or banshees escape your hydras is pwn
neural parasite vs colossi, thors, high templars etc and there's your increased unit diversity 
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There is already a good thread on Spawn Larvae/Macro mechanics. Let's keep that here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=118911¤tpage=5
I think, when you're looking for a "anti-turtle" unit, you're trying to play Zerg the same way as the other two races. You don't win games by shattering their front with Siege Tanks or Colossus. You win by out tech switching, out expanding, and out macro-opponents.
Oh yes, and don't underestimate Infestor's. They may be made of (armored) paper, but if he ignores them the Fungal Growth can be a huge boon to your army, especially against Terran bio and Protoss when they have a few Colossi. Neural Parasite isn't quite where it needs to be (useful), but you can use it if they are just a-moving into your army.
Get map control, force him to turtle, and win the economy game. That's how Zerg does it right.
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this thread is whiney.
User was warned for this post.
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On April 09 2010 15:12 PhiliBiRD wrote:
this thread is whiney.
This post is useful.
User was warned for this post.
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as a zerg player that fast expands pretty much every game at will, i disagree. larvae was a hindrance in SC1 but now is pretty much one of our biggest strengths. If you are facing problems with larvae then you aren't macroing as well as you should be.
and... 6-pool cheese? are you joking?
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He has it right that zerg is the least aggressive early. Other than a baneling bust or some other all-inish type of strat, zerg can really put no pressure on the enemy early game. Both races have wall ins that completely shut down zergling aggression, and a few marauders or a cannon tower at the top of a ramp keep you from doing any sort of roach pressure.
So the best zerg can hope to do is threaten a backstab with his lings vs toss, or try and contain with lings vs terran. Really though, ZvT is more about the zerg surviving whatever harass/cheese the terran will throw at him for the first 10 minutes without taking too much economic damage so he can outproduce the terran mid game and beyond. This is not being aggressive. The terran completely dictates the match.
In both of the non-mirrors, zerg takes a heavy reactionary stance and must just sit back and survive until his macro kicks in. You drone as much as you can while trying to make just enough units to survive. About the time you take your third, you are finally ready to go on the offensive a bit, but that's like 10 minutes in.
While I guess there is nothing wrong with this, i've been seriously considering a race switch just because I prefer to be really aggressive early and I like to control the flow of a match and that is just not how zerg rolls in SC2.
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hmm, maybe try the Antpile defense while powering drones
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On April 09 2010 16:03 nodule wrote:
hmm, maybe try the Antpile defense while powering drones
lol. While this would work, it is certainly not aggressive!
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yeah, i agree with you on many points
The only viable option is to force the opponent to make mistakes, with faking tech or mutaharass and exp a whole lot, and pull out a roach army. Rushing to ultras is not viable, mas muta cannot win, hydras are useless, lings/blings cannot break a well rounded army, so Zergs are left to mass that nerfed-insect, roach.
Pre-patch when Hydras werent useless it was different, you could fight on even-ish terms mid-game. Patch 8 totally screwed up the game in my opinion.
Seriously 80 hp Tier 2 unit? are you serious Blizzard?
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EPT
