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It's not that they're not going to drink anymore, I'm fine with that. I really couldn't care less what you do, or don't do with your time. What pisses me off about alcoholics is that they aren't addressing the root cause of their problem. Their problem has never, and will never be alcohol, in my opinion. It's their extremist behavior. So, instead of addressing the behavior that caused the problem in the first place, they demonize and vilify alcohol and other related substances/activities. What they're doing isn't solving the problem. They've only found a new place to foster their extremism, but this time they do so in a "healthy and holy" environment.
How about this little thing I like to call self control? I have a friend that is "recovering" from alcoholism right now, and it's good because he really did have a problem controlling himself with alcohol, and he probably would have killed himself soon had he not done something about it. But, like every alcoholic I've ever met, he's not just stopping at alcohol. He won't go to parties, he won't go to strip clubs, anything, anywhere that might have alcohol around. Instead of just looking at himself and saying "damn dude, I've gotta control myself," he vilifies the drink, and the environments. Instead of taking some fucking responsibility for his actions, he blames the drink.
And it doesn't even end there, he's pretty much going to cut ties with people who still party and whatnot. Honestly, I can control myself. I went out the other night with some friends and had TWO drinks all night. Wow, alcohol is so bad. Those environments always lead to more, without fail (which is what he said, putting yourself [ie anyone, not just him] in those environments leads down a dangerous road, blah blah blah). It's complete bullshit, and these fucking twelve steppers are starting to piss me off.
The worst thing about them is that they're almost always the first people to talk about accountability in life, and self-respect, and responsibility and all those other lovely words that they like to throw around, yet none of them will own up to what THEY did, and the actions THEY take. They blame everything but themselves. I am, personally, living proof that alcohol does not turn you into an alcoholic, that going to bars does not turn you into a degenerate, that having women in your life doesn't turn you into a sex-fiend, etc. But tell that to a recovering alcoholic and you're met with all kinds of bullshit about how awful your lifestyle is, and how you need to stop living the way you are before things get worse, and all that other nonsense that I'm sure many people here have heard before.
I'm just fucking sick of it. Instead of living your life to one extreme or the other, find the middle ground. Happy people find the middle ground, and they live a balanced life.
That's the end of my rant, I had to get that out somewhere because it's driving me insane.
EDIT: I think that South Park episode hit this issue right on the head. It's the one where the statue of Mary is perioding.
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Watch the south park episode when Stan's dad has a drinking problem. It's hilarious and reaches the same conclusion you do.
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On August 26 2009 07:32 ilistis wrote:
Watch the south park episode when Stan's dad has a drinking problem. It's hilarious and reaches the same conclusion you do.
I ninja'd that in there.
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Alcoholism is (usually) not the same as kids partying to hard. It comes later and it's ugly.
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Calgary25980 Posts
You realize for some people self-control isn't as easy as for you. Everyone has their demons. I follow a logical pattern of thinking like you for everything in my life, except for food. For some people, if there is alcohol in their house, they have to drink it. Other people have a similar problem with drugs. For me, if I have junk food in my house, I have to eat it. I can't explain it. Sooner or sooner, it's going to get eaten if I'm alone. So it's easy to pass judgement on people if you've never felt this irrational kind of behaviour, but I'm telling you it's a strange dent in someone's logical process. I have two solutions: Take your way and learn to control myself, which is somewhat mentally exhausting and likely doomed to fail, or the other way and just never have junk food in my house at all. And that's how I have to live. So I can see how people with alcoholism have to make the similar black or white decision in their lives.
So maybe it's not as easy as "learn some self control". I've never experienced it for anything else, so I can't comment. Surely some people here have felt a similar draw to video games, where it has to either be all the way on or all the way off. For these people there really can be no middle ground.
I'm not sure why you even care, even if that person is passing judgement on you.
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You're being highly insensitive. The reason recovering alcoholics avoid parties/anywhere alcohol is served isn't part of some grand holier than thou strategy or anything like that. Really the slightest thing can send an alcoholic into relapse, and guess what, parties have a lot of those temptations. I know of a guy like 40 years old who was a recovering alcoholic and hadnt drank for like 10 years. One day he had a drink with some friends at a bar and that was it. Thats all it took for him to end up on the street as an alcoholic again.
Again, I really don't think you at all know what you are talking about when it comes to alcohol addiction, and the people who are seriously addicted don't do it because they don't care. You might as well tell someone addicted to gambling to man up.
Also Alcohol doesnt effect everyone the same way (suprise) and just because you can drink without becoming and alcoholic doesnt mean alcoholics don't exist.
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For some people not going near alcohol, not having alcohol in their house, or not going out to places where alcohol is prevalent IS having self control.
I agree with you in principle... but principle doesn't always work in reality.
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On August 26 2009 07:42 Chill wrote:
You realize for some people self-control isn't as easy as for you. Everyone has their demons. I follow a logical pattern of thinking like you for everything in my life, except for food. For some people, if there is alcohol in their house, they have to drink it. Other people have a similar problem with drugs. For me, if I have junk food in my house, I have to eat it. I can't explain it. Sooner or sooner, it's going to get eaten if I'm alone. So it's easy to pass judgement on people if you've never felt this irrational kind of behaviour, but I'm telling you it's a strange dent in someone's logical process. I have two solutions: Take your way and learn to control myself, which is somewhat mentally exhausting and likely doomed to fail, or the other way and just never have junk food in my house at all. And that's how I have to live. So I can see how people with alcoholism have to make the similar black or white decision in their lives.
So maybe it's not as easy as "learn some self control". I've never experienced it for anything else, so I can't comment. Surely some people here have felt a similar draw to video games, where it has to either be all the way on or all the way off. For these people there really can be no middle ground.
I'm not sure why you even care, even if that person is passing judgement on you.
I used to be the same way with junk food. We'd get some in the house, and I'd have to eat it. And not just a little bit, but a lot of it. I'd eat a whole damn box of those strawberry shortcake rolls, and not think twice. Then one day, I realized that it's incredibly unhealthy for me to do so, so I stopped eating like a pig when there was junk food in the house. There is still, very often, junk food in my house, but instead of eating all of it, I just have a little bit. I also had some pretty extreme OCD about some things (constantly washing my hands, biting the skin off of my fingers around my nails, and then more, and a bunch of other shit), and I stopped being that way because I realized how destructive it was.
The point is, you aren't powerless over it. You are, in fact, very controlling over what you do, and I can attest to that through personal experience. Your attitude that you're "likely to fail" is the exact reason that you fail. You aren't willing to work for it, so you take the easy road. It irritates me that people aren't willing to take control over their own lives. Especially in this situation where these people become the most hypocritical on the planet. Because they aren't fixing the problem, they're just replacing their addiction with another that they deem to be better than the last, and then condemn ever single person who can live a healthy, balanced lifestyle that includes things that they can't control.
On August 26 2009 07:48 fusionsdf wrote:
You're being highly insensitive. The reason recovering alcoholics avoid parties/anywhere alcohol is served isn't part of some grand holier than thou strategy or anything like that. Really the slightest thing can send an alcoholic into relapse, and guess what, parties have a lot of those temptations. I know of a guy like 40 years old who was a recovering alcoholic and hadnt drank for like 10 years. One day he had a drink with some friends at a bar and that was it. Thats all it took for him to end up on the street as an alcoholic again.
Again, I really don't think you at all know what you are talking about when it comes to alcohol addiction, and the people who are seriously addicted don't do it because they don't care. You might as well tell someone addicted to gambling to man up.
Also Alcohol doesnt effect everyone the same way (suprise) and just because you can drink without becoming and alcoholic doesnt mean alcoholics don't exist.
It's not even that they won't go to those places, it's the way they condemn people who do that really irritates the hell out of me.
Maybe I am wrong, and there is actually something that physically drives people to drink, and I'm fine with that. Like I said, I don't even care if they don't drink, they can do whatever they want. But what pisses me off is that they demonize all the activity and don't put the blame where it belongs, which is on themselves.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On August 26 2009 07:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2009 07:42 Chill wrote:
You realize for some people self-control isn't as easy as for you. Everyone has their demons. I follow a logical pattern of thinking like you for everything in my life, except for food. For some people, if there is alcohol in their house, they have to drink it. Other people have a similar problem with drugs. For me, if I have junk food in my house, I have to eat it. I can't explain it. Sooner or sooner, it's going to get eaten if I'm alone. So it's easy to pass judgement on people if you've never felt this irrational kind of behaviour, but I'm telling you it's a strange dent in someone's logical process. I have two solutions: Take your way and learn to control myself, which is somewhat mentally exhausting and likely doomed to fail, or the other way and just never have junk food in my house at all. And that's how I have to live. So I can see how people with alcoholism have to make the similar black or white decision in their lives.
So maybe it's not as easy as "learn some self control". I've never experienced it for anything else, so I can't comment. Surely some people here have felt a similar draw to video games, where it has to either be all the way on or all the way off. For these people there really can be no middle ground.
I'm not sure why you even care, even if that person is passing judgement on you. Your attitude that you're "likely to fail" is the exact reason that you fail. You aren't willing to work for it, so you take the easy road. It irritates me that people aren't willing to take control over their own lives. Especially in this situation where these people become the most hypocritical on the planet. Because they aren't fixing the problem, they're just replacing their addiction with another that they deem to be better than the last, and then condemn ever single person who can live a healthy, balanced lifestyle that includes things that they can't control.
Consider that this isn't true, as backed up by personal emperical evidence.
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On August 26 2009 07:47 Chill wrote:Thanks for your contribution.
i was editing my post with info, you were too dam quick lol.
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you are extrapolating way too far from your own experiences. Just because you can conquer some of your own behaviors (congrats) doesnt mean alcoholism doesnt exist, or that people should just man up.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On August 26 2009 07:54 stroggos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2009 07:47 Chill wrote:On August 26 2009 07:46 stroggos wrote:
5 pages incoming.
Thanks for your contribution. i was editing my post with info, you were too dam quick lol.
Oh, 5 pages incoming from you. Sorry. I thought you meant like "Hahaha this stupid thread is going to have 5 pages instantly." Alright, ignore my warning.
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You can't really change anything, despite what the world tells you.
If your overall setup(your genes, your experience, your mental capacity, your opennes to opinions of others) is to be an alchoholic, you'll be one. If your overall setup is to be a recovering alcoholic that is annoying, you'll be that. You'll change if your overall setup allows it, you won't if it doesn't.
A river can't flow the way you want it unless what you want is what already is.
Believing humans are different is an illusion.
/end post that doesn't quite belong here
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Osaka27149 Posts
Your post shows a startling ignorance towards what alcohol is, and what it does to a person who becomes dependent on it. It isn't just a matter of "self-control". It is an addiction. Historically TL has the attitude that addiction can be overcome by "growing a pair", but that is just typical bullshit.
You express disappointment that your friend, who doesn't want to drink, will not go to parties or strip clubs. Where alcohol is served. Where there is tremendous pressure to drink. People who want to handle their problems sometimes do so by removing "triggers" from their lifestyle. You should be supportive of this. In one breath you say "he probably would have killed himself" and in the next you say "he should come to places where alcohol is served".. What kind of logic is that?
It is fine to be disappointed that your friend has changed, but saying things like "I am living proof blah blah blah" is ridiculous. Everyone is different. Instead of ranting about it, or looking down at someone, try a little empathy. It will go a long way.
edit:
Maybe I am wrong, and there is actually something that physically drives people to drink, and I'm fine with that. Like I said, I don't even care if they don't drink, they can do whatever they want. But what pisses me off is that they demonize all the activity and don't put the blame where it belongs, which is on themselves.
I really think you should read a little bit about what alcohol does to a person before posting. It will give you some perspective.
edit 2:
On August 26 2009 07:55 fusionsdf wrote:
you are extrapolating way too far from your own experiences. Just because you can conquer some of your own behaviors (congrats) doesnt mean alcoholism doesnt exist, or that people should just man up.
What he said, basically.
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Osaka27149 Posts
On August 26 2009 07:54 stroggos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2009 07:47 Chill wrote:On August 26 2009 07:46 stroggos wrote:
5 pages incoming.
Thanks for your contribution. i was editing my post with info, you were too dam quick lol.
lol, I almost banned you when I saw the warning edited out.
In future though, don't reserve spots. Less people will read it in the end anyway by the time you get your 5 pages up, and it will be out of context with the flow of conversation.
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I used to feel the same way you do about this, but it's time for a little perspective; some recovering alcoholics know they have extremely poor self control. And, like all people you'll ever meet, they project their own problems on their environment, which is why such thing as bars and parties are "vilified" by these sobering alcoholics. So basically what I'm getting at is: people don't want to look in the mirror. They'll do every thing imaginable to avoid facing their problems. Even to the point of substance abuse... (see what I did there? Eh? Eh?)
So the next time a "former" alcoholic looks down on ,or people who drink, or whatever, just remember: they're doing everything they can to divert attention from themselves. I'm afraid we are all guilty of this defense mechanism when faced with our weaknesses.
The whole "man up" thing is usually something I preach, but most of us realize by now that there are many people who can't overcome whatever they are attempting to repress.
EDIT: *shrugs* shit happens.
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I actually had an alcohol problem a few months ago and I can say not everyone has the same will. About 2-3 years ago I'd drink casually, maybe every weekend or so but I didn't feel the need to drink. And then my life kinda took wierd turns and it led me to the point where if there was alcohol in my room, I'd have to take a few drinks to "forget about stuff" and "further enjoy stuff". And when I mean "a few drinks", I mean anywhere from 14 to 26oz in a night. Luckily for me a few months away from home and a few changes made me lose that bad habit and I can casually drink again (although it might be a bit early to say that, right? idk), but I can see how people can easily become alcoholics.
TLDR: everybody's different. Tolerance differs from one person to another. L2Empathy.
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On August 26 2009 07:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:
Maybe I am wrong, and there is actually something that physically drives people to drink, and I'm fine with that.
http://tinyurl.com/nbwx36
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Katowice25012 Posts
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A bit offtopic, but still ontopic in some sort of way, but I drink 3-4 cans a beer every night, I dont have any family with history of alcohol abuse, but can this be dangerous to me? Do I risk becomming an alcoholic?
I dont drink couse I need to, I just like it :D When I come home from a hard days work, I enjoy getting the buzz while playing starcraft and watching house lol.
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Katowice25012 Posts
The point is, you aren't powerless over it. You are, in fact, very controlling over what you do, and I can attest to that through personal experience.
for what its worth your "personal experience" is nowhere even near parallel to what an addict experiences and the conclusions you draw are very much directly against how brain chemistry actually works and the findings of nearly all research on the topic
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Snet
United States3573 Posts
On August 26 2009 09:17 Epicfailguy wrote:
A bit offtopic, but still ontopic in some sort of way, but I drink 3-4 cans a beer every night, I dont have any family with history of alcohol abuse, but can this be dangerous to me? Do I risk becomming an alcoholic?
I dont drink couse I need to, I just like it :D When I come home from a hard days work, I enjoy getting the buzz while playing starcraft and watching house lol.
It's not alcoholism until you are physically dependent on the substance to feel normal. You would be categorized as a casual drinker. You will know you're an alcoholic when you have to drink 3-4 beers before work, during work, and when you're off work.
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On August 26 2009 09:17 Epicfailguy wrote:
A bit offtopic, but still ontopic in some sort of way, but I drink 3-4 cans a beer every night, I dont have any family with history of alcohol abuse, but can this be dangerous to me? Do I risk becomming an alcoholic?
I dont drink couse I need to, I just like it :D When I come home from a hard days work, I enjoy getting the buzz while playing starcraft and watching house lol.
Everyone reacts differently to alcohol.
Almost invariably it's the choices of the person that begins the addiction. Run an experiment really... go for one week only drinking 1 can (this way you have the temptation) but stop at one. Don't go grabbing a second one or grab a third one or whatever... stick to one.
If you can do that you're pretty much good to go. Alcoholics drink a lot of alcohol man... we're talking a 12 pack a day or more. They drink so much that it begins to impact the rest of their lives. If your drink intake goes up and you find yourself coming late to work all of a sudden or your grades start plunging you might wanna take a look at what you're doing.
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You know, the whole thing was kind of a blind rage thing going on. Mostly due to what was said about what is a perfectly acceptable lifestyle, in my opinion, by someone that has a problem. So... yeah. Mods close please?
I do want to respond specifically to this, though, as there seems to be confusion (which is my fault for not being more clear in my writing) as to why I was angry:
On August 26 2009 08:09 Manifesto7 wrote:
Your post shows a startling ignorance towards what alcohol is, and what it does to a person who becomes dependent on it. It isn't just a matter of "self-control". It is an addiction. Historically TL has the attitude that addiction can be overcome by "growing a pair", but that is just typical bullshit.
You express disappointment that your friend, who doesn't want to drink, will not go to parties or strip clubs. Where alcohol is served. Where there is tremendous pressure to drink. People who want to handle their problems sometimes do so by removing "triggers" from their lifestyle. You should be supportive of this. In one breath you say "he probably would have killed himself" and in the next you say "he should come to places where alcohol is served".. What kind of logic is that?
It is fine to be disappointed that your friend has changed, but saying things like "I am living proof blah blah blah" is ridiculous. Everyone is different. Instead of ranting about it, or looking down at someone, try a little empathy. It will go a long way.
It's not that he won't go to whatever places, it's the condemnation of the acts themselves, rather than saying "man, I can't do that anymore, because it causes major problems for me" he blames the situation, and says they lead down a bad path without fail (Which clearly isn't true, and that's what I meant by I am living proof of that not being true, as well as millions of others are).
Most of my post was me being pissed off, and (not being ignorant of, but rather just ignoring the research because I was mad, because I think we've all had a HS health class, where, though you don't get very in depth research on the matter, you certainly learn about addiction, and how alcoholism can be genetic, etc). So, really, this whole thing was a way for me to blow off steam without pissing the wrong people off. So, I've kinda realized the whole time that it was a problem, but I was mad, and A) needed to blow off some steam (which this provides a great outlet for), and B) be kind of verbally (or textually, in this case) smacked straight again (which this place also provides).
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On August 26 2009 09:31 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2009 09:17 Epicfailguy wrote:
A bit offtopic, but still ontopic in some sort of way, but I drink 3-4 cans a beer every night, I dont have any family with history of alcohol abuse, but can this be dangerous to me? Do I risk becomming an alcoholic?
I dont drink couse I need to, I just like it :D When I come home from a hard days work, I enjoy getting the buzz while playing starcraft and watching house lol. Everyone reacts differently to alcohol. Almost invariably it's the choices of the person that begins the addiction. Run an experiment really... go for one week only drinking 1 can (this way you have the temptation) but stop at one. Don't go grabbing a second one or grab a third one or whatever... stick to one. If you can do that you're pretty much good to go. Alcoholics drink a lot of alcohol man... we're talking a 12 pack a day or more. They drink so much that it begins to impact the rest of their lives. If your drink intake goes up and you find yourself coming late to work all of a sudden or your grades start plunging you might wanna take a look at what you're doing.
Yeah thanks man  , then I dont think I have anything to worry about.
Getting a job was the best thing that ever happened to me, I've had/still have some depressions and shit, and getting to work with nice colleges and geting my mind on something else is like a fucking cure, and I woudnt risk fucking that up, so I guess something bad holds me back from drinking to much, which is a bit ironic.
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It's stupid and ignorant to claim that nothing but willpower and the decision to be a moderate controls a person's likelihood to become an alcohol. I'd actually call it borderline stupid. Genetics are the #1 factor in determining one's susceptibility to alcohol.
If you have never experience an addiction or dependence, then you're lucky. It's straight up retarded for you to vilify OTHER people for vilifying environments wherein they will be exposed to a drug (yes) where they may not be able to resist it. Depending on your level of dependence it may have quite literally nothing to do with your mental discipline. So please, shut up.
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Osaka27149 Posts
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EPT
