EPT[OSL] Bacchus OSL Grand Final - Jaedong vs YellOw[ArnC] -…
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
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vaMpYr
France119 Posts
On August 23 2009 06:54 Avidkeystamper wrote: Outsider. Oh, And god's garden b/c it was used in the offline preliminaries, but that really doesn't matter. god's garden is a big big zerg map , i must agree with this . one of the most Z map in history . but i disagree with outsider . TvZ: 30-38 (44.1%) [ Games ] ZvP: 12-11 (52.2%) [ Games ] PvT: 20-13 (60.6%) [ Games ] outsider is a really balanced map . u can see on this stats . P > T Z > T ( something really rare ) Z ~= P maybe the T are little disavantaged here , but i think its because T is on hard times this days , especially on so hard map like outsider . And i think fantasy vs jaedong in proleague final can show how the map can be balanced . god's garden has not been so much played in this OSL , and we can say outsider is balanced . Z dominance is not about the map , its about talent of players , motivation of players , and most about Z builds right now . last year P was completly dominating everything ( P dominance last year was one of the most violent in SC history ) because of P magic builds , but this was also because of 6 very talented players . last year this was because of bisu,best,stork,kal,jangbi,free with other good P such as tempest,pure,guemchi,sangho,pusan,shuttle,tester .. ; this year is because of jaedong,calm,effort,yellow[arnc],kwanro,Zero,luxury . and dont forgot many potential Z such as hyvaa , great , hyun , Roro , odin , savior .. I predicted this Z dominance for 6-8 month now when we were still in the P times , because i knew T and P would have been shaken by the new Z ideas and motivation . i think this Z dominance will live for a good time , like about 8 months or a year . the future will tell us about this ^^ . | ||
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
Yeah, I really don't think thats the case. When Protosses were destroying left and right, it was basically just the 6 dragons. Bisu, Best, Kal, Free, Stork, Jangbi were like still the only protosses actually winning and doing well. Everyone else just sucked as usual. Nowadays with these maps, we have all sorts of zergs winning left and right. Even mediocre zergs are able to win and make finals. Ones that used to pretty much be middle tier have now been catapulted to the top because of maps like GG and Outsider. When not a single protoss player reaches OSL RO8 and only one makes MSL RO8, there's something wrong there ehh? Also, it doesn't help that protosses keep killing each other off in like every single tourney. Latest WCG is an example of this as well. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On August 24 2009 04:57 Roffles wrote: Yeah, I really don't think thats the case. When Protosses were destroying left and right, it was basically just the 6 dragons. Bisu, Best, Kal, Free, Stork, Jangbi were like still the only protosses actually winning and doing well. Everyone else just sucked as usual. Nowadays with these maps, we have all sorts of zergs winning left and right. Even mediocre zergs are able to win and make finals. Ones that used to pretty much be middle tier have now been catapulted to the top because of maps like GG and Outsider. When not a single protoss player reaches OSL RO8 and only one makes MSL RO8, there's something wrong there ehh? Also, it doesn't help that protosses keep killing each other off in like every single tourney. Latest WCG is an example of this as well. In that case the "hugely imba" maps like Outsider would be like 75% Zerg winrate, not 55%. ESPECIALLY if EVERY Zerg is winning. Let's have a look at the finals map pool and see which maps favor Zerg. Holy World? Nope. ROTK? Nope. HBR Z seems to > P and T > Z. Outsider has been addressed before. Especially if all the Zergs dominate, that means that the actual win %'s don't hold true for the map balance. If the Zerg players are doing better than others, that means that a map with even statistics in a mu means that it actually is bad for Zerg. Almost all the maps are relatively balanced; This can't be the reason. | ||
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Warrior Madness
Canada3791 Posts
On August 24 2009 04:44 raga4ka wrote: I wonder if Jaedong will crack 4k points in kespa ? I doubt anyone will surpass his kespa pick . I imagine if GOM were sanctioned by Kespa then most certainly yes. Easily yes. Let's not forget JD made it to the quarterfinals of GOM. | ||
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On August 24 2009 05:01 Shikyo wrote: In that case the "hugely imba" maps like Outsider would be like 75% Zerg winrate, not 55%. ESPECIALLY if EVERY Zerg is winning. Let's have a look at the finals map pool and see which maps favor Zerg. Holy World? Nope. ROTK? Nope. HBR Z seems to > P and T > Z. Outsider has been addressed before. Especially if all the Zergs dominate, that means that the actual win %'s don't hold true for the map balance. If the Zerg players are doing better than others, that means that a map with even statistics in a mu means that it actually is bad for Zerg. Almost all the maps are relatively balanced; This can't be the reason. + Show Spoiler + Then wanna explain to me how we have Calm/Kwanro in MSL finals? There's gotta be some explanation behind that. Anyways, zergs have been pretty lucky as hell (I'm looking at you Type-B and Kwanro). Mass ZvZ semis and quarters means something is up. Even though map statistics and stuff might not explain it, there's gotta be something that explains why we had a mass influx of ZvZ (And I'm pretty sure it's not because zergs are getting better). Also, the qualification stages were pretty gay too. If I recall, only like a few protosses were able to make it out of stages. Instead, we had mass zergs flooding in, riding zerg favored maps to victory. Unless somehow all tosses just happened to suck for no apparent reason. | ||
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iamho
United States3347 Posts
On August 24 2009 07:02 Roffles wrote: + Show Spoiler + Then wanna explain to me how we have Calm/Kwanro in MSL finals? There's gotta be some explanation behind that. Anyways, zergs have been pretty lucky as hell (I'm looking at you Type-B and Kwanro). Mass ZvZ semis and quarters means something is up. Even though map statistics and stuff might not explain it, there's gotta be something that explains why we had a mass influx of ZvZ (And I'm pretty sure it's not because zergs are getting better). Also, the qualification stages were pretty gay too. If I recall, only like a few protosses were able to make it out of stages. Instead, we had mass zergs flooding in, riding zerg favored maps to victory. Unless somehow all tosses just happened to suck for no apparent reason. imo the reason zergs are doing so well now is because t/p builds keep getting greedier and greedier, otherwise shit zergs like kwanro would've never done so well | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
On August 24 2009 05:01 Shikyo wrote: In that case the "hugely imba" maps like Outsider would be like 75% Zerg winrate, not 55%. ESPECIALLY if EVERY Zerg is winning. Let's have a look at the finals map pool and see which maps favor Zerg. Holy World? Nope. ROTK? Nope. HBR Z seems to > P and T > Z. Outsider has been addressed before. Yes. Holy World is so balanced that they decide to quickly replace it with Holy World SE following the group stages of the OSL. I mean, nothing says balance like fixing a map in the middle of a SL season. Actually, this season has the perfect storm of almost all maps being zerg friendly. Not that they're extremely imba like Tears of the Moon or Battle Royale. But they're very playable for zergs. While there are plenty of maps that are unfriendly for terran and especially protoss. | ||
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Rostam
United States2552 Posts
On August 24 2009 07:02 Roffles wrote: Also, the qualification stages were pretty gay too. If I recall, only like a few protosses were able to make it out of stages. Instead, we had mass zergs flooding in, riding zerg favored maps to victory. Unless somehow all tosses just happened to suck for no apparent reason. Yeah, let's not forget this, only 4 protoss made it through the OSL preliminaries (God's Garden, Outsider, Return of the King) and 2 through the MSL preliminaries (Destination, Medusa, Byzantium 2). | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8552 Posts
A few promising protosses were nipped in the offlines due to bad maps like Violet and Horang2. Free and Jangbi never make the OSL anyways. Kal would've lost to ZerO w/o infested terrans given their current forms. And Stork and Bisu lost key matches on HBR. Really, the only protosses that had a good chance of going into the Ro8 fell at HBR. | ||
Harem
United States11390 Posts
On August 24 2009 07:02 Roffles wrote: + Show Spoiler + Then wanna explain to me how we have Calm/Kwanro in MSL finals? There's gotta be some explanation behind that. Most of the protosses being in same MSL group which killed a majority of them off certainly helped. | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8552 Posts
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On August 24 2009 08:11 Avidkeystamper wrote: Obv, they decided if they were in different groups, they would lose to the zergs b/c of the maps. Thus, it's still the map's fault. Don't logic me, Harem. Wasn't the msl where jangbi decided he wanted to kill bisu with protosses? (Which was obviously the worst race to pick to do it) | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8552 Posts
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On August 24 2009 09:50 Avidkeystamper wrote: He should have put Bisu into an all-zerg group. That always works for some reason. Would probably have worked this year for sure, however I don't think he had control over other groups. | ||
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Nylan
United States795 Posts
Obviously, when Savior said he would "destroy eveyone in 2009", he was speaking for The Swarm. | ||
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Sentenal
United States12398 Posts
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ssj114
Afghanistan461 Posts
I find it hilarious that people are saying that it's the worst OSL in recent history or other bla bla bla. Get over it. Jaedong is so clearly the GOAT. | ||
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BanZu
United States3329 Posts
On August 24 2009 12:58 ssj114 wrote: Jaedong proving he is the GOAT. I find it hilarious that people are saying that it's the worst OSL in recent history or other bla bla bla. Get over it. Jaedong is so clearly the GOAT. Hands down, it is. GOAT? I remember someone mentioning it but can you explain what that is? | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8552 Posts
3 were protoss players 4 were SKT T1 fans. Am I implying something? Yes. Only iamho was neither. | ||
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