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On August 14 2009 20:56 Uligor wrote:
I, admittedly a Fantasy fan, must disagree with the comparison between Fantasy's cheese and Jaedong's cheese.
Fantasy's cheese was not just a simple BBS, it was a smart fake wall-in strategy that was new and innovative. Jaedong's 4 pool on the other hand was not innovative at all, though to his credit he did display cleverness by hiding the additional lings.
The statement "You liked Fantasy's cheese so therefore you cannot dislike Jaedong's cheese" is therefore in my opinion inaccurate because they were different on a strategic level.
The statement is also a double-edged sword because a good portion of the Jaedong fans now cheering for Jaedong's cheese loathed Fantasy's cheese.
While I understand that the whole "cheese hate" is simply an excuse to bash another player, I still think I should point that this statement is shallow.
In my opinion, even though I don't have any "cheese is gay" feeling AT ALL. I don't even think cheesing is possible in a BoX series, the mindgames through the game are extremely important. If anything proleague is the only real place "cheese" takes place, where the better player is sniped or whatever you want to call it.
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sAw
965 Posts
Instead of enjoying one of the most anticipated matches lately you guys turn this into a flame war. Nicely done.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On August 14 2009 20:56 Uligor wrote:
I, admittedly a Fantasy fan, must disagree with the comparison between Fantasy's cheese and Jaedong's cheese.
Fantasy's cheese was not just a simple BBS, it was a smart fake wall-in strategy that was new and innovative. Jaedong's 4 pool on the other hand was not innovative at all, though to his credit he did display cleverness by hiding the additional lings.
The statement "You liked Fantasy's cheese so therefore you cannot dislike Jaedong's cheese" is therefore in my opinion inaccurate because they were different on a strategic level.
The statement is also a double-edged sword because a good portion of the Jaedong fans now cheering for Jaedong's cheese loathed Fantasy's cheese.
While I understand that the whole "cheese hate" is simply an excuse to bash another player, I still think I should point that this statement is shallow.
i think they're comparable to a certain degree; you never see a zerg make a bunch more lings and try to kill a bunker so well surrounded. it coulda blew up in his face, but he tricked fantasy pretty hard with those zerglings in his mineral line. little stuff like that, your screen being centered ever so slightly too high, and that's a win. pretty intense, definitely both executed with a specific purpose in mind that happened to pan out
though fantasy's was more of a pre-game preparation
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On August 14 2009 20:49 ShaperofDreams wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2009 20:47 Zoler wrote:On August 14 2009 20:45 ShaperofDreams wrote:On August 14 2009 20:38 Zoler wrote:On August 14 2009 20:36 ShaperofDreams wrote:
People who say the last two games sucked, or the ZvZ matchup sucks, should go play DOTA because they have 0 understanding of SC. Are you kidding me? Fantasy had the game won vs the 4pool but was like "HEY IM SO COOL IM NOT GONNA DEFEND MY BUNKER!!! LOL I LET U WIN JAEDONG!" I would fucking win that game if I played zerg. No you wouldn't. Calm your nerd rage and think clearly for a moment. In fact I advise you to re-watch the game a couple times in the future and see why Jaedong won. Also there were a LOT of mind games involved in that game. Hey dude there were no mind games at all. If you survive a 4pool you defend, can it be easier? You have a vulture coming, how hard is it to defend ur bunker til then? Fantasy is just greedy re-watch the games you are generalizing a very specific game into "4pool". If you still think you would win that game as the zerg you are a very delusional person.
Fantasy didn't see that JD had kept making lings instead of starting to build drones, he didnt show any of his extra lings and just ran around with the ones he had already shown. He then attacked the mineral line with those lings, making fanta obviously think it was just an attempt to snipe a marine or scv. So he concentrated on that while his reserve hidden lings charged on the bunker, and his lings in the mineral line blocked the scvs from repairing, if fantasy had known there were more lings he would have went to the bunker with his scvs to repair it. Was a very clever move and it fooled fantasy, however i think if he had lifted his cc quick he would have gained access to the bunker with his scvs to repair it, potentially saving him.
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best match i've seen in a while. i think people that are fans of terran forget how disgustingly hard it is to break their walls. ya fantasy messed up.. but only after jaedong played near-perfectly. JD could have played a perfect rush and still failed. both needed to happen. they did.
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Ok so basically JD was ahead or even in the first game but really blew it and then had bad micro and defense and multitask. Game 2 he was like a different player, harrassing everywhere and still had great macro even on like 5 gas and won in the end. Game 3 was a 4pool, and I'm pretty sure Fantasy could have defended it if he hadn't gone for a mech build. Game 4 was just a terrible choice for that map...
I'm kind of surprised that there were no 8raxes and the like from Fantasy. It's like he got completely mentally destroyed in game 2. :/
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United States10774 Posts
On August 14 2009 20:54 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2009 20:53 OneOther wrote:On August 14 2009 20:50 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On August 14 2009 20:48 o[twist] wrote:On August 14 2009 20:47 G.s)NarutO wrote:
Why don't people understand that this was a pure build order win in the last game? FantaSy took the risk that he can't defend vs a Zerg that is 9pooling with that wall and Jaedong went 9 pool speed so FantaSy lost.
Its not a choke - he just took a risk and it didnt pay off. it wasn't a good risk to take because it didn't have any potential benefit. why wall off against fast lings if the wall also fails against fast lings yep thats very true. he'd have been better off with a 10rax and sorta lock-and-key building placement with a bunker. there should have been some sort of backup plan for his build, which is exceedingly effective at every position but the one he spawned at. choosing to continue the path regardless was a very poor choice also, what happened to his first marine again? if i remember correctly he had enough time to lift the barracks and bring the marine to the other side of the wall, didn't he? he would have been fine then, but i don't remember how the timing exactly worked out. that was just ugly the one marine wouldn't have made a difference, fantasy would have lost those two vultures regardless and jaedong simply wouldn't have gotten a hydra den. he'd still win for sure. but yeah it's odd, no idea where it went or why he cancelled it
i actually think it would have made a huge difference. having one marine behind the wall constantly shooting at the six initial lings would have allowed fantasy to set up a much better defense before zergling speed finished. he could have at least gotten a bunker or something. i doubt jaedong would have continued to make that many zerglings if fantasy had done that. jaedong saw the opportunity and seized it.
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51497 Posts
also is there any reason why fantasy didn't attempt to get +1 weapons upgrade for tanks on outsider? i felt that if he got the upgrade, it would have helped in his pushes.
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On August 14 2009 20:58 sAw wrote:
Instead of enjoying one of the most anticipated matches lately you guys turn this into a flame war. Nicely done.
seriously this isnt even flame i mean TL has pretty high standards but for the most part people here are pretty well mannered even when hating
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
On August 14 2009 20:58 o3.power91 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2009 20:52 alffla wrote:On August 14 2009 20:52 o3.power91 wrote:On August 14 2009 20:48 pr0t0ss wrote:
MSL mean much less than OSL after all umm... no it kinda does. i cant explain it myself but MSL is just so much less prestigious and grand and whatever than OSL. It kinda depends on who you ask I guess. Although there are more arguments for the OSL being more prestigious, I still believe they are equal.
i love both of them
in terms of skill and whatever its just the same bunch of progamers and stuff vs each other
but come on all the awesome intro openings are from OSL
OSL got all those legendary things like ROYAL ROADUUu and Golden platinum mouse etc
got KIM CARRI etcet
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That last game was sooooooo disappointing/anti-climatic.
Probably worse than the Bisu/JD GOM showmatch.
Also, props to JD for salvaging game 3. That was clutch like Iris pulling it out vs. Bisu in MSL.
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
On August 14 2009 20:56 Uligor wrote:
I, admittedly a Fantasy fan, must disagree with the comparison between Fantasy's cheese and Jaedong's cheese.
Fantasy's cheese was not just a simple BBS, it was a smart fake wall-in strategy that was new and innovative. Jaedong's 4 pool on the other hand was not innovative at all, though to his credit he did display cleverness by hiding the additional lings.
The statement "You liked Fantasy's cheese so therefore you cannot dislike Jaedong's cheese" is therefore in my opinion inaccurate because they were different on a strategic level.
The statement is also a double-edged sword because a good portion of the Jaedong fans now cheering for Jaedong's cheese loathed Fantasy's cheese.
While I understand that the whole "cheese hate" is simply an excuse to bash another player, I still think I should point that this statement is shallow.
I agree that Fantasy's build on Medusa in the Proleague Final was far beyond just cheese.
On the other hand you just have to realize that Zerg simply CANNOT do that many things, it's not like you can hide your pool or anything for example.
On August 14 2009 20:59 nttea wrote:
Fantasy didn't see that JD had kept making lings instead of starting to build drones, he didnt show any of his extra lings and just ran around with the ones he had already shown. He then attacked the mineral line with those lings, making fanta obviously think it was just an attempt to snipe a marine or scv. So he concentrated on that while his reserve hidden lings charged on the bunker, and his lings in the mineral line blocked the scvs from repairing, if fantasy had known there were more lings he would have went to the bunker with his scvs to repair it. Was a very clever move and it fooled fantasy, however i think if he had lifted his cc quick he would have gained access to the bunker with his scvs to repair it, potentially saving him.
Fantasy should have expected Jaedong to continue to make lings, because that's pretty much the only thing Zerg can do after a 4 pool unless he killed tons of SCVs. You can't catch up in economy if you are on 3 drones (Fantasy had 10 SCVs after he defended for the first time).
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On August 14 2009 20:44 alffla wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2009 20:42 lazz wrote:On August 14 2009 20:41 konadora wrote:
OH MY GOD
I NEED SOME BEER this man speaks for all of us need beer to celebrate/???
exactly
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On August 14 2009 20:59 GTR wrote:
also is there any reason why fantasy didn't attempt to get +1 weapons upgrade for tanks on outsider? i felt that if he got the upgrade, it would have helped in his pushes.
he didn't get upgrades for the tanks in the PL outsider match either. i was confused about this too.
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On August 14 2009 21:00 lazz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2009 20:44 alffla wrote:On August 14 2009 20:42 lazz wrote:On August 14 2009 20:41 konadora wrote:
OH MY GOD
I NEED SOME BEER this man speaks for all of us need beer to celebrate/??? exactly
More likely to drown oneself.
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Baltimore, USA22258 Posts
On August 14 2009 20:58 o3.power91 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2009 20:52 alffla wrote:On August 14 2009 20:52 o3.power91 wrote:On August 14 2009 20:48 pr0t0ss wrote:
MSL mean much less than OSL after all umm... no it kinda does. i cant explain it myself but MSL is just so much less prestigious and grand and whatever than OSL. It kinda depends on who you ask I guess. Although there are more arguments for the OSL being more prestigious, I still believe they are equal.
No, it has nothing to do with who you ask, that is exactly how the Koreans feel about it... there have been numerous threads about this over the years.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On August 14 2009 20:58 o3.power91 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2009 20:52 alffla wrote:On August 14 2009 20:52 o3.power91 wrote:On August 14 2009 20:48 pr0t0ss wrote:
MSL mean much less than OSL after all umm... no it kinda does. i cant explain it myself but MSL is just so much less prestigious and grand and whatever than OSL. It kinda depends on who you ask I guess. Although there are more arguments for the OSL being more prestigious, I still believe they are equal.
once again, our perception greatly differs from the players themselves. OSL is held in much higher regard (don't bring up savior  ), second only to proleague
at the end of the day those are just abstract concepts and a paycheck is a paycheck, with the exception of proleague which is basically what these guys live for
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On August 14 2009 21:00 o[twist] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2009 20:59 GTR wrote:
also is there any reason why fantasy didn't attempt to get +1 weapons upgrade for tanks on outsider? i felt that if he got the upgrade, it would have helped in his pushes. he didn't get upgrades for the tanks in the PL outsider match either. i was confused about this too.
i think the +5 damage is inconsequential against Z ground forces as hydras die one hit to tanks anyway and zerglings only take 25 percent damage.
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On August 14 2009 20:53 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2009 20:52 d_so wrote:On August 14 2009 20:50 Tinithor wrote:On August 14 2009 20:48 pr0t0ss wrote:
LJD play is beautifull
it's like a classic music, like a symphony
he deserved everyone of his wins
what can fantasy do? some bunker cheese?
MSL mean much less than OSL after all
this OSL became Jaedong's coronation for the bownja, best of the best of the best al times, etc. title I just do NOT understand how people can be SO BIASED to one side or the other! I really cant! Jaedong failed in Proleague Grand Finals, Fantasy failed in OSL Semi Finals, who the fuck are YOU to judge who is better? u need to calm down. simiple fact is that, for whatever reason, OSL championships are worth the most for an individual player. Winning a few games in Proleague is commendable but doesn't hold the same clout as an OSL championship actually thats more our perspective than theirs. proleague grand final is the single most important event to every progamer
It is really not to hard to understand I believe. Pro League Grand Finals are once a year, but you have like 3 MSLs and 3OSLs during that time. What makes it that special is really that it is a unique event. And for the sponsors it should be more important than individual titles.
On the other hand, if in Round2Week3 of PL a player also has an OSL semifinal or whatever, I am 100% certain his focus will be on the individual league.
I don't know the mentallity of koreans regarding individual achievments vs team achievements though.
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Kentor
United States5784 Posts
who wants to watch some penn and teller with me before i rage sleep
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EPT
