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On July 24 2009 10:27 Tensai176 wrote:
I fail to see what Canata did was cheese... Let alone bunker rushes a cheese. I understood Cheese as being an all-in attack that if failed, puts one at a decisive disadvantage.
In Canata vs. Jaedong game, If the bunker rush failed, although being at a disadvantage it is definitely not decisive and it was certainly not an all-in attack (He made a CC to expand for gods sake).
The only way I see a bunker rush being cheese if the terran goes BBS or the terran sends out like 7-12 scvs. Canata used a unique strategy against Jaedong but that's a farcry from being a cheese build.
The fact that bunker rush / 8 rax is not labeled as cheese because its not an all-in attack seriously tells me that Terran gets a crapload of advantage in TvZ. They should be an all-in attack but T can perform these strategies without much risk, and at the same time, if Z wanted to do early ling production by early pool, it is considered a cheese solely on the fact that it is in all-in? Hmm...what were Blizzard workers thinking when they designed this matchup...
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erm...without much risk? lol
do you know what happens when you fail an 8 rax? v_v
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my god insanity
action packed, crazy un predictable Ro8
thx for the quick write-up!
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Braavos36400 Posts
Yeah, I'd like to echo the fact that the op is awesome for putting in the little recaps.
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United States13896 Posts
Just saw the games, can't believe Bisu, EffOrt and Jaedong all managed to lose in the same set of games. Thank god the format is going to be forgiving in giving the losers a week to compose themselves and prepare for what will have to be strong performances next week.
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On July 24 2009 12:04 AzureEye wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2009 10:27 Tensai176 wrote:
I fail to see what Canata did was cheese... Let alone bunker rushes a cheese. I understood Cheese as being an all-in attack that if failed, puts one at a decisive disadvantage.
In Canata vs. Jaedong game, If the bunker rush failed, although being at a disadvantage it is definitely not decisive and it was certainly not an all-in attack (He made a CC to expand for gods sake).
The only way I see a bunker rush being cheese if the terran goes BBS or the terran sends out like 7-12 scvs. Canata used a unique strategy against Jaedong but that's a farcry from being a cheese build. The fact that bunker rush / 8 rax is not labeled as cheese because its not an all-in attack seriously tells me that Terran gets a crapload of advantage in TvZ. They should be an all-in attack but T can perform these strategies without much risk, and at the same time, if Z wanted to do early ling production by early pool, it is considered a cheese solely on the fact that it is in all-in? Hmm...what were Blizzard workers thinking when they designed this matchup...
I think that 1) the people who originally designed SC are gone, since it was 11 YEARS AGO, and 2) they definitely didn't intend to have the game turn out this way. They just went with what turned out to be a good thing.
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On July 24 2009 10:38 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2009 00:27 Shikyo wrote:On July 23 2009 22:51 jello_biafra wrote:
Can't believe after so many years idiots still complain about the "imba" of TvZ, makes me sick.
Damn good games today, nicely played by all winners. The ~55% TvZ winrate over those years definitely has nothing to do with that. xellos nada boxer oov vs.... yellow and a bunch of trash for like 5 years on horribly imbalanced maps and it only comes out 55%> clearly zerg is stronger than terran. you just skipped over all the good zerg players of the time to prop up your illegitimate argument. Gorush, July, Chojja were all top Zerg players early into starcraft and were hardly considered trash. All of them - in fact every major zerg player in history and the majority of the minor ones, have weak zvt's compared to their other match ups. Coincidence? Or maybe its just a harder match up for zergs than it is terrans?
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
Before Gorush / Savior, zerg had no idea how to play ZvT.
Before Bisu, protoss had no idea how to play PvZ.
It's not coincidence, zerg just had no concept of mutalisk micro and defiler use.
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...
you are kidding right?
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On July 25 2009 06:59 Tien wrote:
Before Gorush / Savior, zerg had no idea how to play ZvT.
Before Bisu, protoss had no idea how to play PvZ.
It's not coincidence, zerg just had no concept of mutalisk micro and defiler use. um...no. There were many many meta game shifts in every match up. Yeah, Savior and Gorush's management style definitely was be start of the modern era, which is more balanced, but its not as if zvt or pvz was stagnant before hand. Ra for example influenced pvz a LOT. Tvz hasn't always been t>z, same with z>p. Its just general trends that create the over all imbalance, but theres bene times where its not been true.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
Yes
Savior 3 hatch muta -> 3 gas defiler standardized ZvT. Before that, zergs never really had a standard build order against terran. Mutalisk micro / defiler usage truly changed the entire matchup. That's a fact.
Yellow / Chojja / Julyzerg. All strong players, but got smashed in the face by terrans more often than not.
About ZvP. Before Bisu standardized fast expo -> corsair. There was no real standardized PvZ build that could face anything zergs threw at it.
Sure you had nal_ra with the 1 gate tech builds, but zergs always had the upperhand in the matchup.
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On July 26 2009 00:57 Tien wrote:
Yes
Savior 3 hatch muta -> 3 gas defiler standardized ZvT. Before that, zergs never really had a standard build order against terran. Mutalisk micro / defiler usage truly changed the entire matchup. That's a fact.
Yellow / Chojja / Julyzerg. All strong players, but got smashed in the face by terrans more often than not.
About ZvP. Before Bisu standardized fast expo -> corsair. There was no real standardized PvZ build that could face anything zergs threw at it.
Sure you had nal_ra with the 1 gate tech builds, but zergs always had the upperhand in the matchup.
Your an idiot. Perhaps you'd like to watch some replays from the era you speak of, when zerg had no "standard" buiid orders against terran...because they did. And there were standardized pvz builds before bisu as well, and standardized zerg responses. Fuck this post was so full of ignorant trash. God Im pissed.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
They had standardized builds yes, but completely inferior compared to builds today.
And the creation of mulalisk micro and defiler usage changed the game completely.
That's my entire point.
I started following the scene in 2002. I saw how the zergs were playing, and I saw how they were getting smashed by terrans. Everyone seems to have forgotten this. Boxer, Iloveoov, nada, xellos, sync all made mince meat out of zergs.
I was also playing on the old school server gamei as well as iccup. ZvT was a nightmare without mutalisk micro and defiler usage. ZvT is a lot easier today than it was before.
When did you start following starcraft? Not even a year. It's okay, you're a newcomer to the scene. I'll excuse your ignorance.
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On July 26 2009 07:16 Tien wrote:
They had standardized builds yes, but completely inferior compared to builds today.
And the creation of mulalisk micro and defiler usage changed the game completely.
That's my entire point.
I started following the scene in 2002. I saw how the zergs were playing, and I saw how they were getting smashed by terrans. Everyone seems to have forgotten this. Boxer, Iloveoov, nada, xellos, sync all made mince meat out of zergs.
I was also playing on the old school server gamei as well as iccup. ZvT was a nightmare without mutalisk micro and defiler usage. ZvT is a lot easier today than it was before.
When did you start following starcraft? Not even a year. It's okay, you're a newcomer to the scene. I'll excuse your ignorance. You JUST said that there was no standard build orders in the past. Now you are saying the standard build orders werent good enough and there was imbalance. What the fuck. Why are you randomly pretending your having a completely different argument with me than you actually are?
And I've been around since the day starcraft came out, so eat me.
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Bisu phael!!!!
i wonder if he's gonna play better in the PL playoffs
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EPT
