it appears that the WCG head admins have listened!! Lan latency+anti hack+friendly admins have returned!!! Feel free to read sanger's posts starting on page 10!!! THANK YOU SO MUCH WCG FOR LISTENING TO THE COMMUNITY!!! :D :D :D :D
WCG USAs disrespect and blatant disregard for the views of the competitive community has driven me to boycott participating in WCG USA until they get their act together. I strongly encourage anyone who reads what I have to say to post in this thread and join me in this boycott.
As of right now, WCG USA has the following problems:
1) No Lan Latency 2) An disorganized website (note that right now, when you enter "west" registration for starcraft, you actually sign up for the EAST tournaments.) 3) An outdated anti-hack launcher that runs poorly (GamOn crashes regularly and many maphacks are compatible) 4) Maps that not only are outdated, but also change depending on where you read the rules (some places it says Tau Cross, Blue Storm, Python, Gaia, while other places say Azalea, Paranoid, Gaia, and Peaks of Baekdu). 5) Most importantly:Poor leadership. Rather than appear helpful or enthusiastic, Laurent (apparently one of the organizers of WCG USA) has appeared more defensive and unaccommodating, as seen throughout the link at the top of the page, but most significantly here:
Before I address this issue, allow me to defend WCG USA. I can understand if issues exist initially. I can understand that the first qualifier would need to be postponed due to crashing launcher issues. I can understand if the decision on the mappool is poor at first and must be changed later. I can understand the lack of lan latency until GamOn updates.
That said, I absolutely cannot justify Laurent's behavior in any regard. Laurent and those involved with the WCG USA committee should be excited to hear the suggestions of the community. Instead, they appear defensive, even lashing out at respected community members who desperately want WCG USA to succeed.
Our community by itself organizes amazing tournaments such as the TSL, tournaments that have prizes, video commentary, and motivated players. The community knows the ins and outs of a well organized tournament. I would absolutely love to participate in a WCG USA that matches the community’s (reasonable and easy to accomplish) expectations of competitive play.
I have participated in the WCG tournaments since 2001, invited to represent America at the Grand Final three times and winning the PanAmerican Championship in 2007. After years of providing feedback to deaf ears, it’s quite clear to me that WCG USA needs a wake up call. I can think of no clearer message than a tournament where no competitors show up. Boycott WCG USA until they match the passion we bring to our game every day.
problem with this is wcg doesnt care if they get good players, not everyone is going to boycott, leaving shitty no name players who will win, and wcg could care less.
On April 17 2009 16:30 spydernoob wrote: problem with this is wcg doesnt care if they get good players, not everyone is going to boycott, leaving shitty no name players who will win, and wcg could care less.
you're absolutely correct, but I have to do what I must. I can think of no other solution.
I'm honestly teary w/ emotion. I'm so frustrated t.t
Unfortunately, we have nothing else in the USA. What can we do? Ignore the one event we have just because it's badly run? I think our only choice is to put up with it until SC2 brings bigger and better things.
On April 17 2009 16:33 Louder wrote: Unfortunately, we have nothing else in the USA. What can we do? Ignore the one event we have just because it's badly run? I think our only choice is to put up with it until SC2 brings bigger and better things.
I look forward to practicing for WCG USA every year, and EVERY year I grow increasingly more frustrated w/ the organization. As I said, it breaks my heart to have to boycott the tournament, but I see no other option. If you want to play in the tournament, I totally understand. But, I think a boycott will help make WCG a better tournament. If you goto the open in NY, definitely say something
I think the reasoning from Day[9] here is solid... the problem can continue to be accommodated in its various forms, or we can all deal without it for a while and when something new finally pops up we get our way. Something new is probably not going to pop up while WCG dominates.
The point here I guess is that failure is part of enterprise...when the people are not well served they stop consuming, and then somebody willing to provide the service in the form desired comes in to give it. Whether it works in this instance or not is a different matter, but I can certainly understand the motivations.
Unfortunately I have to agree with spydernoob. Judging from their behavior, it's not a stretch to believe WCG couldn't care less who shows up or who wins. They won't change anything because they don't have to. Somebody is bound to show up and win it and they wouldn't care if it were an actual worthy player like say Nony or some noob like me.
They don't care. It's been shown time and time again and I honestly don't believe that they will change their act. So long as they get results, they will continue to ignore and insult respected communities and community members as it suits them.
That being said, I do support this whole heartedly. I hate to sound so dramatic, but it's better to die on your feet than live on your knees. Sometimes you just have to stand up and get your voice heard, even if it's bound to be a drop in an ocean. Get enough drops and you got a wave. A wave of Starcraft revolution!!!
Now I'm getting emotional and way too dramatic. Time to put on some comedy movies and tone it down a bit!
I lashed out at only one community member who finds it easiest to use me as the reason that everything sucks. If defending yourself against constant attacks is wrong, then im wrong. I wont apologize for sticking up for myself.
I lashed out at only one community member who finds it easiest to use me as the reason that everything sucks. If defending yourself against constant attacks is wrong, then im wrong. I wont apologize for sticking up for myself.
Don't martyr yourself for fuck sakes.
I never name you as the sole reason for wcg not doing well this year.. NEVER. I have my complaints with you as a wcg employee but they came WAY AFTER I was already involved with issues.
You lashed out unprofessionally and now you are making up lies to try and rationalize it. This a fucking forum Laurent.. we can see your words dude.
I lashed out at only one community member who finds it easiest to use me as the reason that everything sucks. If defending yourself against constant attacks is wrong, then im wrong. I wont apologize for sticking up for myself.
Lashing out at ANY community member, ESPECIALLY one going to great lengths to help organize your tournament, is absolutely 100% unacceptable.
That said, I'd like to point out to the ENTIRE community why Laurent's above post encapsulates the problem. In his FIRST response to this thread, Laurent says nothing about the tournament, nothing about what he's doing to fix WCG, nothing about helping the community. Instead, Laurent defends himself. Moreover, he defends himself in a situation where he is undeniably in the wrong.
Laurent, allow me to restate myself.
I do not care if you are the root of WCGs problems. I do not care of your co-workers are the root of the problems. I do not care if your bosses are the root of the problems.
There are enormous, unacceptable problems with WCG
Fix it
(and stop referring to me by my first name. I have no idea who you are)
I lashed out at only one community member who finds it easiest to use me as the reason that everything sucks. If defending yourself against constant attacks is wrong, then im wrong. I wont apologize for sticking up for myself.
Lashing out at ANY community member, ESPECIALLY one going to great lengths to help organize your tournament, is absolutely 100% unacceptable.
That said, I'd like to point out to the ENTIRE community why Laurent's above post encapsulates the problem. In his FIRST response to this thread, Laurent says nothing about the tournament, nothing about what he's doing to fix WCG, nothing about helping the community. Instead, Laurent defends himself. Moreover, he defends himself in a situation where he is undeniably in the wrong.
Laurent, allow me to restate myself.
I do not care if you are the root of WCGs problems. I do not care of your co-workers are the root of the problems. I do not care if your bosses are the root of the problems.
There are enormous, unacceptable problems with WCG
Fix it
(and stop referring to me by my first name. I have no idea who you are)
a professional organizer posting on a starcraft forum defending himself against community members' attacks has got to be the most unprofessional thing in the world.
most people would just get reviewed/fired for this kind of stuff... in a professional setting.
seeing how it is, WCG USA doesn't even get much exposure anyways, so wtv. Lets just hope Blizzard starts something with SC2 and OGN comes to the USA
We need to somehow get Geoff hired on to run this event imo. Seems like any WCG thread he's always trying to contact people and relay info and get the ball rolling and as far as I know he's doing it free of charge and if anyone fucks with him he can hulk smash them to death.
I lashed out at only one community member who finds it easiest to use me as the reason that everything sucks. If defending yourself against constant attacks is wrong, then im wrong. I wont apologize for sticking up for myself.
man wcg is gonna be terrible this year poor organization isnt helping, just let geoff help you do your job, he understands what the sc community wants/needs more
edit- Besides putting on great games, it seems kind of sad to see you not go if you've practiced and trained for it. That's what I really meant. There aren't many tournaments for foreigners, so this might be one of your only chances to win something for a long time.
btw WCG does care. I refuse to believe they don't. I really do. They are ran by good people (yes that includes laurent, he has his philosophy and it is a skewed/bad one for this situation but he is a good person who has some gaming experience) and they can fix some of these issues.
To be honest a LOT of the crap/degradation we see is a result of the marriage between gaming and economics. People that sign on the dotted line and actually get shit pushed are older guys who are just getting involved in the industry to make a buck.. they don't understand that in order to actually tap this market you have to be one with the industry. Somehow that continually gets lost on people. My rant is basically saying "It isn't all their fault." They have to make decisions that are both good for the gamer and better for the investor.. while I know that there is a better way to do this they are locked up in bureaucracy that ends up making things worse.
Point is movements like this are extreme but can make a difference. I promise you they care when stuff like this happens. Especially when it is a former champion that is at the helm.
As for me I will remain in the thick of things with WCG.. as laurent puts it I will "boast" my connections and try to make things better.
On April 17 2009 17:01 deathgod6 wrote: Don't boycott Day9! We want to see you play!
Speak for yourself. The WCG USA organization has been getting progressively worse each year, despite players voicing their concerns over and over. A community boycott sounds like the best idea there is at the moment.
You would think it'd be good business practice not to alienate a group of people that are indirectly sustaining your livelihood. How quickly everyone has forgotten the necessity of success at the grass roots level in eSports
On April 17 2009 17:09 deathgod6 wrote: We trust that you will help settle this out Incontrol. God speed!
Sent my emails.. as much as laurent wants to undermine my "connections" (I simply don't want to use names for their sakes.. so call em what you will). I will have my reply in the morning.
And Laurent: You can read those too.. I don't call you mean names or say you should be fired. That isn't my place. I simply state that you passive aggressively said that I will be "put to shame" and then I voiced my concern about the lack of lan latency and said that I want to know what it was exactly YOU were talking about.
I'd even go so far as to fwd you the email if you like. Seeing as how you viewed my last messages and made it seem like that was some kind of trump card on me I am prepared for full disclosure. You may or may not be aware but I am not interested in some quibble of drama with you. I actually just want WCG to improve for the scbw community.. you for w/e reason are fighting us on that and I won't back down.
I completely agree with this sentiment and it is appalling that the players, who are supposedly the stars of the competitions are being ignored and pushed around.
I would urge everyone in TL to hear day 9's concerns and if the issues at hand aren't fixed a boycott is in demand.
laurent you must know that many extremely important players frequent this forum and are heavily tied to this community, please take this into consideration when writing your responses to one of our most respected members. also know that he is not the only one.
i think it would be utterly disgraceful of Nony day9 iNcontrol etc were forced to omit their presence from the WCG.
So..... I finished reading the thread on "WCG Online Qualifiers...." and I feel as though a lot of you guys are getting way too personal with Laurent. I actually took the time to read through the entire thread and he did give responses back to you guys quite fast.
The only complaint I have is that he constantly said "check this site.. or email these guys or ask these people" but that is unavoidable when you are the middle man. In the beginning, from what i read, he did fix some issues or at least address them such as the map pool, ladder system, and gameon. Then somewhere down the line hell broke loose and everyone got fired up and bashed on him.
I dunno but my understanding a lot of people here are taking this way too personally instead of solving it themselves.
(If you really have a problem with someone do what is most common.. talk to their supervisor or higher ups.. if anything that is what Laurent asked you guys to do when he couldn't solve an issue or answer something.. he directed to a place or to someone who could)
EDIT: Please do try to read the entire thread on "WCG Online Qualifiers..." before making any solid conclusion.
I am going to try to apply pressure with the contacts I have made thus far. In the meantime before monday I want to put up a video explaining the issues and explaining where people can contact WCG and express their dissatisfaction.
Incontrol: can you provide me a direction to flow this traffic?
FakeSteve I am going to borrow your listing. Hopefully with an iterated unified message we can shake things up a bit.
I won't play if they refuse to deny the greatness and purity the version of competitive starcraft that we play. No Hacks , smooth playable lan like latency which completely changes nearly every fiber of gameplay.
I will be posting feedback tomarrow. I want everybody who isn't Day to start there.
Our community isn't the only one. Sc2gg.net gg.net and scforall could help spread the word and encourage active parcipitation in the reform of stagnat WCG policies.
If artosis could mention his day[9] former wcg usa champion is leading a boycott of wcg usa due to: Lack of cheat prevention, Lan latency and organizational apathy then I'm sure both angles can met in the middle.
The fact is the more of the community that we can get involved the more quickly and accurately we can fix our problems.
On April 17 2009 17:53 snapcrackle wrote: So..... I finished reading the thread on "WCG Online Qualifiers...." and I feel as though a lot of you guys are getting way too personal with Laurent. I actually took the time to read through the entire thread and he did give responses back to you guys quite fast.
The only complaint I have is that he constantly said "check this site.. or email these guys or ask these people" but that is unavoidable when you are the middle man. In the beginning, from what i read, he did fix some issues or at least address them such as the map pool, ladder system, and gameon. Then somewhere down the line hell broke loose and everyone got fired up and bashed on him.
I dunno but my understanding a lot of people here are taking this way too personally instead of solving it themselves.
(If you really have a problem with someone do what is most common.. talk to their supervisor or higher ups.. if anything that is what Laurent asked you guys to do when he couldn't solve an issue or answer something.. he directed to a place or to someone who could)
EDIT: Please do try to read the entire thread on "WCG Online Qualifiers..." before making any solid conclusion.
I just read through the thread and I agree with you. It seems to me that a lot of the people don't seem to understand how exactly this kind of organizational structure works as well. Finally, incontrol doesn't seem to be aware of just how dickish he can come off as. Maybe in a community that knows the way he talks this is not a problem but I can see how Laurent would be aggravated by what comes off as bragging and arrogance from his perspective.
That being said, it's stupid to suggest that many of these suggestions are remotely difficult to implement etc. While I can understand how Laurent may be feel threatened, and his position as a middleman limits his personal ability to effect change, it's also foolish to take this sense of being personally attacked and extend that dissatisfaction to the actual work he does, or gives advice on, or whatever.
this is what we in the business world like to call a monopoly. WCG is all we foreigners have to look forward to each year in terms of big tournies. UNLESS! you can convince someone to get TSL2 started and run it during WCG USA finals and whatnot. COMPETITION FTW.
On April 17 2009 19:27 Nal_CrayOn wrote: ...;; no lan-latency?? do they even know about mutal micro?? you cannot win z vs t (idra level) without mutals...
hope wcg-usa follows the korean sc even a "bit".
you think getting murdered by latency-lurkers and not being able to dodge scourge is more fun?
On April 17 2009 19:27 Nal_CrayOn wrote: ...;; no lan-latency?? do they even know about mutal micro?? you cannot win z vs t (idra level) without mutals...
hope wcg-usa follows the korean sc even a "bit".
Exactly.. and to address Day[9]'s post which I completely agree with.. there has to be some bureaucratic structure to WCG, are there any higher ups? I mean.. some kind of punishment for not providing the basics for even, fair play?
So I guess saying I get better games on chaos launcher in op *insert op korean clan*@uswest than I would for WCG isn't an understatement... if nothing changes. Sad state of affairs.
Because protesting says I dont like you and am gonna make a fuss, but I'll end up going along with it. Boycotting says we supported you for years, either show that in return or we're gone.
WCG must get its money from somewhere. If people don't watch the games because they're ass, and they're ass because the good players don't want to play, then they'll go bankrupt, which has been a trend with foreign esport places these days.
Yeah, but I don't think Starcraft players and viewers make too much of a % of the WCG fan base (maybe they do ? I dont have the numbers), I for one don't follow anything besides SC on WCG, so I don't think they will go bankrupt if SC gets boycotted by players and viewers.
On April 17 2009 21:16 Chill wrote: LastShadow! Your time is now!
Also, Laurent martyring is cute.
Well to be fair Laurent didn't stand a chance while replying here : ). Everyone is going to immediately side with Day[9] and Inc (and are right to do so in this case). I'm just saying it was pointless of him to reply here in the first place.
Though I don't get it, is there some sort of reason for which there is no lan latency or decent anti-hack? Is there a reason for which the map list is unclear? Or is just a huge lack of coordination, some ridiculously bad organization (as in: a lack of professionalism)?
I feel your pain and frustration guys. It sucks to see such cool stuff going to waste because of some dumb decisions.
Boycotting WCG won't do anything, if anything, that will just make them less interested because USA players will do so poorly and they will think USA doesnt need a spot for BW. Everyones bitching and complaining, and rightfully so, but no one is doing anything about it. That is why I will throw my participating this year to somehow salvage this years WCG and help it.
Ok, I have sent a PM to laurent and I will try and help out WCG as much as humanly possible. I have not been able to be active due to a broken computer and my skill is probably not up to par for me to qualify for an event so I will gladly sit out this year to help make WCG not a total mess. I have competed in WCG the past four years and saw its horrible track record. I am fairly in tune with the community and have seen Starcraft from all angles and aspects. I am a member of ytech (NrG), have been in the west clan Neo.G, and even seen the depths of hell as a member of X17. I actually visited the wcg finals last year and had a blast meeting some cool people as well as learning a few things and since my skill and computer will not let me participate, I will try to help the tournament. Inc if theirs any word you can put it to help me expidite this process and help me help bridge the gap between wcg usa and its players asap let me know. I will do anything needed to help the community and make wcg anticipated for once instead of dreaded. I PMed laurent, sent WCG an email directly and complained on their website so if anyone else can point me in the direction to start putting this train back on tracks let me know, thanks.
Honestly, I don't feel like a boycott would be that effective unless we have an almost complete boycott. If even three or four of the well-known competitive players show up, the protest will be much weaker.
WCG USA.. hmm.. a yeah that was that fail of an event that you couldn't follow at all. I am not surprised that it's even worse than it looks like from the outside.
I'll boycott just so I dont have to find an excuse why I didn't make the USA finals when all the top tier players weren't playing in it:-P I really agree WCG is horrendous and really needs a completely overhaul to be successful again
I lashed out at only one community member who finds it easiest to use me as the reason that everything sucks. If defending yourself against constant attacks is wrong, then im wrong. I wont apologize for sticking up for myself.
Lashing out at ANY community member, ESPECIALLY one going to great lengths to help organize your tournament, is absolutely 100% unacceptable.
That said, I'd like to point out to the ENTIRE community why Laurent's above post encapsulates the problem. In his FIRST response to this thread, Laurent says nothing about the tournament, nothing about what he's doing to fix WCG, nothing about helping the community. Instead, Laurent defends himself. Moreover, he defends himself in a situation where he is undeniably in the wrong.
this is a great point, Laurent's initial response to Day's post just proved his case...
On April 17 2009 19:27 Nal_CrayOn wrote: ...;; no lan-latency?? do they even know about mutal micro?? you cannot win z vs t (idra level) without mutals...
hope wcg-usa follows the korean sc even a "bit".
you think getting murdered by latency-lurkers and not being able to dodge scourge is more fun?
Not to be off topic but TvZ is rly rly ez without mutas being effective. I hope your boycotting results in WCG fulfilling your demands , it would be a shame to see a grand final of dino vs lastshadow
Little history about WCG Switzerland (only once or twice held for SC/BW).
Organisators had no clue about anything - BUT they let us handle the whole event basically by ourselfes (yay casual organisators which had the guts to actually say that he has no clue about SC/BW and appreciated any help).
Whole event was very fluent (but Switzerland is small and we could bring the whole thing down at 1 Lan, was more a community meeting with tons of awkward CS/Egoshooter guys around ).
Problem: 1 Chinese was there, his nick was "Lyun)Toss" iirc (studied in Switzerland or something, he did not speak a single word of german or French and basically no english)... Organisation decided he could play (we argued against it). Seriously, he dominated the finals with Corsair/Reaver and no one of us saw this strat executed to a decent level ever before... crushing. He steamrolled nearly everyone (I think he lost about 2 games in total, games that didn't count and where played for fun). He was like 6 month's to 1 year ahead in the SC/BW *evolution* :p).
Later WCG decided that he can't play for Switzerland (-.-)
I hope you succeed in this. I hate how WCG treats gamers like shit because they can, its time the community unites and stands up for a good cause. Hopefully this will make wcg organizators realize they're screwing this up big time.
I cant believe they're making so many excuses about not having enough tools like maps, ah, lan latency, when this has been already out in the game for like 1++ year? They just fucking suck at organizing and they wont admit it.
What about creating a shadow qualifier and have all the top players play in that, organized by themselves. You have to do everything WCG USA can't without their resources. Have an official page where people sign up. Either have a ladder for unseeded players or a large qualifier bracket thing. And having offline events is almost impossible since there is no expenses covered and the US is damn huge. Takes some leadership and you probably can get some support from iccup or TL.
And then WCG USA can either take that player, backed by basically all USA SC players of any name, or some random nobody that won the official event. If WCG USA refuses then just go to WCG worldwide and play the Idra-card or something.
Anyway, all this stuff only works if all players stick together. Same for a boycott.
They really do care and really want to be what we want them to be. We just need to understand WCG has to cater to a lot of bullcrap and we need to work with them in order to get an agreeable resolution.
They are really pursuing the lan latency issue amongst other things.
On April 17 2009 16:33 Louder wrote: Unfortunately, we have nothing else in the USA. What can we do? Ignore the one event we have just because it's badly run? I think our only choice is to put up with it until SC2 brings bigger and better things.
I look forward to practicing for WCG USA every year, and EVERY year I grow increasingly more frustrated w/ the organization. As I said, it breaks my heart to have to boycott the tournament, but I see no other option. If you want to play in the tournament, I totally understand. But, I think a boycott will help make WCG a better tournament. If you goto the open in NY, definitely say something
In line with almost all of the thread, yeah wcg sucks but it is a huge tourney and they dont care so there is really nothing else we can do. The best to hope for is to have enough good players against it so there are 2 people who support your cause in the finals, and then in the finals just do stupid stuff
WCG should just sit down with me for 30 minutes and I will tell them how to run a good, lan latency / AH / good maps / fun tournament where everyone is happy. I honestly could have ran a better tournament when I was 13....
i think a better way to boycott would be to play until the WCG USA Finals and the first match, when the game starts, no one does anything, no mining, nothing. Just sit there. That will get our voice out even more in my opinion. I mean the RO8, very first game. Everyone sits down and doesn't participate in the horribly ran tournament. I think that'd be pretty good at getting the idea that WCG USA really does need to change.
WCG USA needs people who actually understand the game, and how the games are about. I mean they ARE a tournament about COMPETITIVE GAMING. So why don't they want the atmosphere to be as competitive as possible? I mean, the whole point of this tournament is to find the best players, and unite gamers around the world. If they want to achieve this, they will have to understand the competitive issues of the community.
I mean, they should have referees who know the game, and people who work for WCG to have a spirit to get the best competitive environment. They get paid from their sponsors, who get paid from their viewers. So, shouldn't they adhere to the viewers wants? Most of the viewers will be the Korean population, then the foreigners. The Korean community for starcraft, are even more competitive than anything you'll find here on TL.net. They want to have the best players, and the most enjoyable games.
In order to achieve the best players, you'll have to figure out how to get the best players. And agreeing to get the best competitive environment for the top tier american players. This will be agreeing with the communities needs, and they're not even that tough. All they need is to use their FREE resources, such as TL.net's maps which can be found here. and the Chaos launcher, or even better, the utilization of the ICCUP ladder. I'm sure just an email to the organizers of ICCUP will gladly help out with WCG. The community wants WCG to be ran as perfectly as possible, WCG should use what we have to offer for FREE.
On April 18 2009 02:42 CaucasianAsian wrote: In order to achieve the best players, you'll have to figure out how to get the best players. And agreeing to get the best competitive environment for the top tier american players. This will be agreeing with the communities needs, and they're not even that tough. All they need is to use their FREE resources, such as TL.net's maps which can be found here. and the Chaos launcher, or even better, the utilization of the ICCUP ladder. I'm sure just an email to the organizers of ICCUP will gladly help out with WCG. The community wants WCG to be ran as perfectly as possible, WCG should use what we have to offer for FREE.
/rant
WCG is a brand and a business with money invested in properties they consider "competitors" of ICCup and the like, which is a root part of this situation. They seem to develop their products in the same way they run events - like a blind man leading a retard - with no feedback from the people who matter: users (us). If they were a business that relied on customers to buy things to support them, rather than through sponsorship/advertising deals, they'd have failed a failing fail 10 years ago.
Fixing WCG wouldn't even be hard. For one they could just install Iccup on every comp and play it over that, I mean how hard is that? They could also change the map pool so it included maps like Desti, Andro, Col and Python. Those are all well known maps and I don't think many people would mind them, how hard is that?
About the economic thing, this would cost no money, maybe 1 hour of time but thats it. They would make more money, as more people would come to the event.
Unless WCG has a vendetta against running a good tournament (or Iccup) then this could work easily.
That will never happen, GameOn is the official ladder of WCG so they will stick to it.
Is a shame to see this going on at US no sorprise we at Central America got so many problems last year, there was only like 20 persons on the ladder between 2 countries... I hope you can fix your problems, maybe we will get a better tournament too if you do...
On April 18 2009 00:11 Diomedes wrote: What about creating a shadow qualifier and have all the top players play in that, organized by themselves. You have to do everything WCG USA can't without their resources. Have an official page where people sign up. Either have a ladder for unseeded players or a large qualifier bracket thing. And having offline events is almost impossible since there is no expenses covered and the US is damn huge. Takes some leadership and you probably can get some support from iccup or TL.
And then WCG USA can either take that player, backed by basically all USA SC players of any name, or some random nobody that won the official event. If WCG USA refuses then just go to WCG worldwide and play the Idra-card or something.
Anyway, all this stuff only works if all players stick together. Same for a boycott.
This is really the last chance for WCG, and hence, we could call it the Last Shadow Qualifier.
On April 18 2009 00:11 Diomedes wrote: What about creating a shadow qualifier and have all the top players play in that, organized by themselves. You have to do everything WCG USA can't without their resources. Have an official page where people sign up. Either have a ladder for unseeded players or a large qualifier bracket thing. And having offline events is almost impossible since there is no expenses covered and the US is damn huge. Takes some leadership and you probably can get some support from iccup or TL.
And then WCG USA can either take that player, backed by basically all USA SC players of any name, or some random nobody that won the official event. If WCG USA refuses then just go to WCG worldwide and play the Idra-card or something.
Anyway, all this stuff only works if all players stick together. Same for a boycott.
This is really the last chance for WCG, and hence, we could call it the Last Shadow Qualifier.
A Last Shadow Qualifier would really pressure WCG.
On April 18 2009 00:11 Diomedes wrote: What about creating a shadow qualifier and have all the top players play in that, organized by themselves. You have to do everything WCG USA can't without their resources. Have an official page where people sign up. Either have a ladder for unseeded players or a large qualifier bracket thing. And having offline events is almost impossible since there is no expenses covered and the US is damn huge. Takes some leadership and you probably can get some support from iccup or TL.
And then WCG USA can either take that player, backed by basically all USA SC players of any name, or some random nobody that won the official event. If WCG USA refuses then just go to WCG worldwide and play the Idra-card or something.
Anyway, all this stuff only works if all players stick together. Same for a boycott.
This is really the last chance for WCG, and hence, we could call it the Last Shadow Qualifier.
A Last Shadow Qualifier would really pressure WCG.
and it would gather huge huge names from all around the world sounds amazing
The thing is it seems like they could fix their problems this year (at least concerning the actual running of the online qualifiers) by just doing the same tournament format they are planning to use, but use ICCUP instaed of GamOn. It's like they're trying to re-invent the wheel or something by insisting they use GamOn when it makes sc lag and I have no clue if it even stops hacks. Not to mentin the lack of LAN latency.
I agree WCG should do a better job. But unfortunately I don't think they care too much about the national WCG USA SC qualifier. There isn't much money in it for them either way. Although you would think they want to keep their tournament legitimate in a time when other tournaments like ESWC went down the drain.
On April 18 2009 00:11 Diomedes wrote: What about creating a shadow qualifier and have all the top players play in that, organized by themselves. You have to do everything WCG USA can't without their resources. Have an official page where people sign up. Either have a ladder for unseeded players or a large qualifier bracket thing. And having offline events is almost impossible since there is no expenses covered and the US is damn huge. Takes some leadership and you probably can get some support from iccup or TL.
And then WCG USA can either take that player, backed by basically all USA SC players of any name, or some random nobody that won the official event. If WCG USA refuses then just go to WCG worldwide and play the Idra-card or something.
Anyway, all this stuff only works if all players stick together. Same for a boycott.
This is really the last chance for WCG, and hence, we could call it the Last Shadow Qualifier.
A Last Shadow Qualifier would really pressure WCG.
On April 18 2009 00:11 Diomedes wrote: What about creating a shadow qualifier and have all the top players play in that, organized by themselves. You have to do everything WCG USA can't without their resources. Have an official page where people sign up. Either have a ladder for unseeded players or a large qualifier bracket thing. And having offline events is almost impossible since there is no expenses covered and the US is damn huge. Takes some leadership and you probably can get some support from iccup or TL.
And then WCG USA can either take that player, backed by basically all USA SC players of any name, or some random nobody that won the official event. If WCG USA refuses then just go to WCG worldwide and play the Idra-card or something.
Anyway, all this stuff only works if all players stick together. Same for a boycott.
This is really the last chance for WCG, and hence, we could call it the Last Shadow Qualifier.
A Last Shadow Qualifier would really pressure WCG.
True, they might shadow rush to a conclusion a little more quickly.
Evilteletubby come on man you guys and your 'puns' are over shadowing the problems. We must organize now with sick timing senses to amend the situation!
(P.S Lastshadow raped me so hard last night I vowed to never smoke weed and play starcraft again)
Damn, all the more reasons for me to practice harder so I can get super good and boycott too :/. Good luck to all of you, I hope you guys can work it out
On April 17 2009 23:06 Velr wrote: Little history about WCG Switzerland (only once or twice held for SC/BW).
Organisators had no clue about anything - BUT they let us handle the whole event basically by ourselfes (yay casual organisators which had the guts to actually say that he has no clue about SC/BW and appreciated any help).
Whole event was very fluent (but Switzerland is small and we could bring the whole thing down at 1 Lan, was more a community meeting with tons of awkward CS/Egoshooter guys around ).
Problem: 1 Chinese was there, his nick was "Lyun)Toss" iirc (studied in Switzerland or something, he did not speak a single word of german or French and basically no english)... Organisation decided he could play (we argued against it). Seriously, he dominated the finals with Corsair/Reaver and no one of us saw this strat executed to a decent level ever before... crushing. He steamrolled nearly everyone (I think he lost about 2 games in total, games that didn't count and where played for fun). He was like 6 month's to 1 year ahead in the SC/BW *evolution* :p).
Later WCG decided that he can't play for Switzerland (-.-)
Isn't this called a strike, not a boycott?... and don't they tend to fail if you don't have some sorta player's-union (that even crappy players join) backing you up? I hope I'm not being too picky about word choice here... it's just a strike and a boycott are very different strategies. One bottleneck's supply, the other cripples or eliminates demand. Both are a fairly dangerous games to play with a company that's supports other videogames over BW already. What sorta options do you have?
For 1) WCG isn't just about BW. If you organize a boycott, the corporates may interpret that as the game being dead. That's bad for BW as e-sports. Demand for BW must remain high. So...
2) A strike may seem in order, but this'll require some organization. You wanna start up a nation-wide (or even international) player's union? I wouldn't suggest half-assing it if you do, cuz it is really easy for a strike to be broken if there isn't a strong union. If the strike breaks, what you're doing becomes an empty gesture that only hurts yourself and those you convince to follow you. I mean... if you were a superstar or you could convince a superstar to follow you, you might be able to affect something, but unfortunately I don't believe USA BW has anyone that qualifies as the face of BW.
There's a third option, I guess... you could force capital flight (get WCG's sponsors to back out), but that'd be bad for e-sports in general, would involve massive scale letter writing campaigns, boycotts and strikes (or a new federal tax on e-sports sponsorships, lol) and I wouldn't suggest any of that.
A fourth option would be to start up a competitor...
Sigh... I think I'm sounding a bit too negative. I think ideally you should work with WCG to make their BW tournaments top-notch... but if they're not listening to you it becomes a really rotten situation. Sad to hear about.
Good luck with whatever you decide. If you want it to work, take it seriously and go all the way with it.
On April 17 2009 23:06 Velr wrote: Little history about WCG Switzerland (only once or twice held for SC/BW).
Organisators had no clue about anything - BUT they let us handle the whole event basically by ourselfes (yay casual organisators which had the guts to actually say that he has no clue about SC/BW and appreciated any help).
Whole event was very fluent (but Switzerland is small and we could bring the whole thing down at 1 Lan, was more a community meeting with tons of awkward CS/Egoshooter guys around ).
Problem: 1 Chinese was there, his nick was "Lyun)Toss" iirc (studied in Switzerland or something, he did not speak a single word of german or French and basically no english)... Organisation decided he could play (we argued against it). Seriously, he dominated the finals with Corsair/Reaver and no one of us saw this strat executed to a decent level ever before... crushing. He steamrolled nearly everyone (I think he lost about 2 games in total, games that didn't count and where played for fun). He was like 6 month's to 1 year ahead in the SC/BW *evolution* :p).
Later WCG decided that he can't play for Switzerland (-.-)
Look this sucks but I don't know that singling out Laurent is a great idea. It doesn't sound like he has a great handle about what's going on (given he doesn't seem to know how maps work) so it's natural he would get upset when we all start going at him with demands when he can't understand why they are reasonable and necessary.
On April 18 2009 08:05 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: Look this sucks but I don't know that singling out Laurent is a great idea. It doesn't sound like he has a great handle about what's going on (given he doesn't seem to know how maps work) so it's natural he would get upset when we all start going at him with demands when he can't understand why they are reasonable and necessary.
which brings about the question: Why isn't someone who knows whats going on heading this project?
I dont see it as singling him out, as far as i can tell no one here actually cares about laurent or even knows who he is. He singled himself out as the "face" of wcg:bw and claimed he could make changes happen. And now he is taking personal offence when people arent exactly happy that he isnt living up to expectations. As far as I know he is getting paid to do this and should remain 100% professional with none of this crybaby bullshit. We get mad at him -> He gets mad at his superiors -> shit happens or at least thats how its supposed to happen but instead he is turning back around on us and taking offense to it.
This just seems embarrassing for the community to associate itself with. You can't just declare a boycott, you're being melodramatic and stupid. Talk to people privately, get the majority to sign up and then maybe you might have something less than a joke. If you can't back your words up then you just sound silly.
I'm not saying I agree with the farcical running of WCG USA but that doesn't change the fact.
On April 18 2009 08:05 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: Look this sucks but I don't know that singling out Laurent is a great idea. It doesn't sound like he has a great handle about what's going on (given he doesn't seem to know how maps work) so it's natural he would get upset when we all start going at him with demands when he can't understand why they are reasonable and necessary.
which brings about the question: Why isn't someone who knows whats going on heading this project?
the truth is this even will run fine with or without your support (at best) and at worst they might just pull the plug and take away USA's slots.. no usa = is it worth having a WCG sc?... dont like where thats going.
anyways im sure MasterOfChaos or similar would offer their LL an AH for use in the qualifiers, after all i'm lead to believe these tools are made for the community (and not for any intended profits) and this event sounds like its in dire need.
This just doesn't seem like a good idea to me. WCG is the biggest tournament for Starcraft Broodwar (for USA at least) every year. Regardless of how shitty the rules might be, it seems stupid to completely turn your back on the event, when you know there may not be another in the future (Starcraft 2). I think the best thing to do is just keep complaining, hope for changes, and if they don't come then you just have to accept what the rules end up being. Yeah it will suck if the rules are not up to par, but nothing will be gained by giving up on the tournament altogether.
On April 18 2009 08:48 Klive5ive wrote: This just seems embarrassing for the community to associate itself with. You can't just declare a boycott, you're being melodramatic and stupid. Talk to people privately, get the majority to sign up and then maybe you might have something less than a joke. If you can't back your words up then you just sound silly.
I'm not saying I agree with the farcical running of WCG USA but that doesn't change the fact.
What do you mean you can't just declare a boycott? How else do you think they start. And he isn't declaring one, he's just trying to rally support for the idea.
On April 18 2009 09:35 TaG]SiG wrote: the truth is this even will run fine with or without your support (at best) and at worst they might just pull the plug and take away USA's slots.. no usa = is it worth having a WCG sc?... dont like where thats going.
anyways im sure MasterOfChaos or similar would offer their LL an AH for use in the qualifiers, after all i'm lead to believe these tools are made for the community (and not for any intended profits) and this event sounds like its in dire need.
Why would Samsung, a Korean Company, give a flying fuck if there are SC players from the US competing in WCG (an event of which they are the primary sponsor) ;p?
SC will be gone from WCG soon anyway, with SC2 being released.
On April 17 2009 14:56 Laurent wrote: Also the reason the maps have been stagnant is because Blizzard wont add any new maps to battle.net for WCG.
Obv Blizzard need to make some new maps and then upload them onto battle.net so we can host games on them.
I'm assuming this is because they have to host games in "WCG" mode? Sort of like what KBK used to have.. In which case what he says is perfectly valid - they DO need Blizz to approve the maps before hand, I'm pretty sure.
Anyway, maybe that's not how it works, just saying it might be.
On April 17 2009 16:34 General Nuke Em wrote: You should enter and win USA and then at the grand finals in front of the entire world write "Laurent is an ass" with zerglings on the minimap.
This is such an awesome idea, maybe we should have someone do it
I'd love to see "WCG sucks" written in pylons/units or just have the player spam ingame: "WCG Sucks"
On April 17 2009 16:34 General Nuke Em wrote: You should enter and win USA and then at the grand finals in front of the entire world write "Laurent is an ass" with zerglings on the minimap.
This is such an awesome idea, maybe we should have someone do it
I'd love to see "WCG sucks" written in pylons/units or just have the player spam ingame: "WCG Sucks"
Or just have everybody play Terran, and have every game be a reenactment of the Canata vs. Shine game from MST.
On April 18 2009 11:58 ._. wrote: well if all the legit gosus bail, doesn't that mean the shitheads like lastgosu,dino, whats the terrans name, gonna represent WCG for USA?
MAN that would suck.
HmmMM nvm, this might just work out seeing the responses here...hope it works!
ya thats the only reason i wont stop playing it, if lastshadow somehow won we would never hear the end of it lol
I support this idea and will not be participating in WCG USA this year (I have played for the past four years). If everyone has the mindset that "no one wants to put themselves out there so I shouldn't either since it won't work," it obviously won't, so please people, put aside your selfishness and send a message to WCG staff. I am glad that they are working on it (as Inc had mentioned), but until it gets fixed, I don't think that they have a good reason for not listening to any of the community's feedback for the past few years and thus do not get the respect that should be given to the nation's largest tournament.
I believe this is a good way of letting the WCG USA staff know how seriously the community is viewing their (lack of) organization. +1 for political activism.
lol this will be funny when 3 D+ players get sent to WCG grand finals..
If that happens, it will make WCG USA look like more of a joke than sending nobody, so hopefully this DOES happen and they realize how fucked they are going to be. If people are going to spend the time to play in their tournament, then they might as well spend time organizing it, and not halfass a job that many people could easily do much better (and would probably be more than willing)
god... its like having a fucking national hockey tournament on a half frozen lake.
As a Brit and a pretty terrible player, my name doesn't carry any weight in the US scene, but I guess the majority can do more damage by just not watching/reading, WCG as a whole is becoming worse every year, whole countries not competing, not sending players, its no way to run the E-Olympics as it bills itself.
if you really want this to have any impact you have to make it official, get signatures or something and hope you get an overwhelming amount.
doing it this way relies on the assumptions that wcg knows who the good players are and cares if they go and i doubt those are very valid assumptions to make.
On April 18 2009 11:58 ._. wrote: well if all the legit gosus bail, doesn't that mean the shitheads like lastgosu,dino, whats the terrans name, gonna represent WCG for USA?
On the bright side, it means we would finally find out the answer to the age-old debate: Can a hacker beat a korean? o.O
The way I see it, WCG really needs some competition. Unfortunately, a tournament of that magnitude is really hard to organize which is probably why nobody else has yet.
On April 18 2009 14:25 IdrA wrote: if you really want this to have any impact you have to make it official, get signatures or something and hope you get an overwhelming amount.
doing it this way relies on the assumptions that wcg knows who the good players are and cares if they go and i doubt those are very valid assumptions to make.
Would you risk not competing in wcg if you could potentially use your postion to enforce change?
On April 18 2009 11:58 ._. wrote: well if all the legit gosus bail, doesn't that mean the shitheads like lastgosu,dino, whats the terrans name, gonna represent WCG for USA?
On the bright side, it means we would finally find out the answer to the age-old debate: Can a hacker beat a korean? o.O
The way I see it, WCG really needs some competition. Unfortunately, a tournament of that magnitude is really hard to organize which is probably why nobody else has yet.
i thought that question had been settled with that hungtran vs nada game on longinus ^^
On April 18 2009 14:25 IdrA wrote: if you really want this to have any impact you have to make it official, get signatures or something and hope you get an overwhelming amount.
doing it this way relies on the assumptions that wcg knows who the good players are and cares if they go and i doubt those are very valid assumptions to make.
Would you risk not competing in wcg if you could potentially use your postion to enforce change?
probably not. either theyre willing to cooperate with the community and theyll make the changes we request without a boycott, given that inc is prodding them, or theyre stubborn/just dont give a shit in which case i hardly think theyre gonna be worried about sending a 2nd class player.
if the entire american community rallied behind it and literally no one showed up to their qualifiers it would be a different story, because then theyd be forced to do something. i wont be at the first qualifier anyway because it coincides with eswc, so we'll see what happens.
I remember kinda similar threads before and I do agree, I'm not an American but the way I am I think that such a game and at this point has to have a proper tournament and organization.
I've been WCG ref in my country for WC3 for 3 years (2003-2005) and I can't say it was in any way bad here, we had BW as well and it's shocking for me that American WCG branch can't organize a tournament properly, it feels like - come on boys, you have your game, we have to give you a chance to play, so play and don't whine - as if it's something UBER cool about WCG as itself, like everyone is dieing to be there... Maybe they consider themselves a monopoly and think it's the only choice for people to prove themselves
I don't consider WCG a top class tournament because of many reasons and with things like these it's even worse for me, that's why I'm not really interested in it anymore besides the fact that I left WC community quite a time ago.
For me, these big community tournaments show a lot more. That's why I'm here and following the scene from TL.
People will show up to qualifiers regardless of a boycott. There are tons of great American SC players that if given the opportunity (if it means the top US players boycott) then by all means they won't hesitate.
WCG is indeed poorly run, it can be better. The problem is there are no alternatives to it because brood war is not big enough to use as a basis for a new tournament altogether. So an initiative has to be taken, someone has to start something to change up WCG. And respect to you Day[9] for taking action, for standing up and organinzing a boycot.
BUT...
A boycott will fail because there is money in the line, it is as simple as that. Money > ideologies. People will suffer old mappack, people will suffer latency, people will suffer a lot of administration to be enrolled in the tournaments simply because they can earn some money. Any amount will do. If you dont believe me, step away from you computer and into the real world. Money owns ideologies and good principles. Hell it even took you years before you finally did something, took an initiative to change something.
THUS...
As discussed trough this entire thread, there is no alternative, but to help WCG improve internally. And the perfect way to do so would be to have a well respected community member, with a wealth of experience and perfectly good intentions as a liason to the WCG organisation to help them set up the tournament. He could build strong and good relationships with the organisation and help them, guide them to a better tournament.
SO...
We had that, {88}Incontrol was the perfect liason to help make WCG better. A good relationship with Laurent, apparantly the man in charge of the SC/BW WCG project, would have helped enormously to make WCG better this year. But despite all good intentions (changes were made in the beginning) somewhere along the way it went wrong, people started flaming, people got offended, pride and personal issues came in between relations and it seems WCG is heading to ruins again.
IN CONCLUSION...
The only way to make WCG better this year is to restore the partnership between the community and the WCG organisation by restoring the partnership between {88}Incontrol and Laurent. Someone will have to swallow his pride and take the first step in this. But seeing it is probably the last WCG for SC/BW and there are no alternative options (we gotta wait till sc2), mutual apoligies and a renewed motivation as a result can still save this tournament.
No more boycot, no more flaming, turn your energy around and use it to improve the WCG. As hard as it may be.
In the Netherlands the tournament was going so badly in 2001 that all of the decent and good players boycotted the tournament as well. It was on the day itself. The tournament continued and 3 newbies went to Korea .
After big arguments they decided to give out one wildcard to be won between NTT, Nazgul, Oaral and Acraeus. Nazgul won and went as well.
On April 18 2009 21:44 Twisted wrote: In the Netherlands the tournament was going so badly in 2001 that all of the decent and good players boycotted the tournament as well. It was on the day itself. The tournament continued and 3 newbies went to Korea .
After big arguments they decided to give out one wildcard to be won between NTT, Nazgul, Oaral and Acraeus. Nazgul won and went as well.
is that the one where you guys boycotted because NTT got disqualified for showing up like a minute late for his games? that year i think tuig and probe or whatever went? gosh they were bad players.
On April 18 2009 12:47 Sonu wrote: hey good luck with this
imo, WCG is moronic as a whole. Some countries werent even able to participate (aka Canada, and I believe UK wasnt able to in 2007 right?).
WCG needs MAJOR change in their leadership. I am sad that a country such as the US is facing problems with WCG like this...
Even though im a Canadian I totally support this boycott
I'm pretty sure that the fact that Canada didn't send a SC player last year was a decision made on their national WCG level based on limited funding. That's the reason many countries don't send a SC player. SCII is sure to revitalize the funding and interest once it comes out, but it would be nice what is likely to be the last WCG with SC would be run well.
On April 18 2009 21:44 Twisted wrote: In the Netherlands the tournament was going so badly in 2001 that all of the decent and good players boycotted the tournament as well. It was on the day itself. The tournament continued and 3 newbies went to Korea .
After big arguments they decided to give out one wildcard to be won between NTT, Nazgul, Oaral and Acraeus. Nazgul won and went as well.
is that the one where you guys boycotted because NTT got disqualified for showing up like a minute late for his games? that year i think tuig and probe or whatever went? gosh they were bad players.
it was and actually pixel, noenoe (not 100% sure on this one) and blub went... because there was only 4 players left and 3 would qualify... they probably normally owuldnt have even survived round 1 -_-;
It's a shame, I played in WCG 2003 for wc3 1v1 and it was a lot of fun, sad to see how the situation is now.
Another thing I want to add is this is exactly the type of thing that happened in CS 1.6, the CPL's from 1999-2003 were absolutely amazing events to attend and they crashed and burned because they did not listen to the community. Their head organizer Angel Rios(this may not be his actual last name, I can't remember) constantly poured bullshit down gotfrag and the 1.6 community's throats until his organization shut down and a great number of cs 1.6 players that participated in the later tournaments were never paid prize money...
Why not swallow what little pride you have left and listen to people like incontrol?
tbh this is probably gonna be the last year for SC in WCG. So I say, just forget about everything and just have the USA finals be invite only. It's all just going to be the same people anyway
On April 18 2009 21:44 Twisted wrote: In the Netherlands the tournament was going so badly in 2001 that all of the decent and good players boycotted the tournament as well. It was on the day itself. The tournament continued and 3 newbies went to Korea .
After big arguments they decided to give out one wildcard to be won between NTT, Nazgul, Oaral and Acraeus. Nazgul won and went as well.
is that the one where you guys boycotted because NTT got disqualified for showing up like a minute late for his games? that year i think tuig and probe or whatever went? gosh they were bad players.
it was and actually pixel, noenoe (not 100% sure on this one) and blub went... because there was only 4 players left and 3 would qualify... they probably normally owuldnt have even survived round 1 -_-;
It was a benelux qualifier right? BluB deserved a spot for belgium. Didn't he even beat nazgul in the WCG Finals?
I know NoeNoe abused his way to a WCG Finals once.
WCG was a bogus format from the beginning. forcing the koreans to eliminate each other in prelims just to go against the champion from saudi arabia in the semi finals is bullshit
I was very tempted to send emails to Samsung, amBX, and ?Falcon? explaining how I will never buy any of their products because of the incompetency shown by the WCG organization.
That would be immature, however, and ignoring the fact that one email is hardly likely to change anything, and that WCG losing its sponsorship is entirely bad for the community. (Unless someone else got the sponsorship *cough*TSL*cough*)
Hell, the fact that a group of volunteers from a niche community site can run a better tournament than a PROFESSIONAL ORGANIZATION is just fucking sad. Luarent, and anyone else responsible for this bullshit should be fired.
On April 18 2009 13:34 Kerotan wrote: As a Brit and a pretty terrible player, my name doesn't carry any weight in the US scene, but I guess the majority can do more damage by just not watching/reading, WCG as a whole is becoming worse every year, whole countries not competing, not sending players, its no way to run the E-Olympics as it bills itself.
Last year I emailed the guy running WCGUK and told him about iccup launcher, modern maps, lan latency, known hackers and smurfs and that the finals really ought to be bo5. He was like "yeah, that makes sense, we'll do that" and accepted all of my recommendations without arguing.
It's not a problem with WCG, it's a problem with arrogant admins and excessive bureaucracy.
On April 18 2009 21:44 Twisted wrote: In the Netherlands the tournament was going so badly in 2001 that all of the decent and good players boycotted the tournament as well. It was on the day itself. The tournament continued and 3 newbies went to Korea .
After big arguments they decided to give out one wildcard to be won between NTT, Nazgul, Oaral and Acraeus. Nazgul won and went as well.
is that the one where you guys boycotted because NTT got disqualified for showing up like a minute late for his games? that year i think tuig and probe or whatever went? gosh they were bad players.
it was and actually pixel, noenoe (not 100% sure on this one) and blub went... because there was only 4 players left and 3 would qualify... they probably normally owuldnt have even survived round 1 -_-;
It was a benelux qualifier right? BluB deserved a spot for belgium. Didn't he even beat nazgul in the WCG Finals?
I know NoeNoe abused his way to a WCG Finals once.
It was pixel, garak and blub.
Blub wasn't all that bad (he won as well and went 2-3 in his group). He didn't win against nazgul lol.
On April 19 2009 06:10 Kwark wrote: Last year I emailed the guy running WCGUK and told him about iccup launcher, modern maps, lan latency, known hackers and smurfs and that the finals really ought to be bo5. He was like "yeah, that makes sense, we'll do that" and accepted all of my recommendations without arguing.
LOL! An attitude like that from the start would've made this thread completely unnecessary from the beginning. Too bad...
WCG, there are ALREADY METHODS in place that people use EVERY DAY that are far superior than the shit you require to be used for your tourniment. Does that make any sense? No.
Why not allow people, who clearly have the knowledge and skills to bring your tourniment to the level it needs to be, do so? There is absolutely no reason not to.
I lashed out at only one community member who finds it easiest to use me as the reason that everything sucks. If defending yourself against constant attacks is wrong, then im wrong. I wont apologize for sticking up for myself.
Lashing out at ANY community member, ESPECIALLY one going to great lengths to help organize your tournament, is absolutely 100% unacceptable.
That said, I'd like to point out to the ENTIRE community why Laurent's above post encapsulates the problem. In his FIRST response to this thread, Laurent says nothing about the tournament, nothing about what he's doing to fix WCG, nothing about helping the community. Instead, Laurent defends himself. Moreover, he defends himself in a situation where he is undeniably in the wrong.
Laurent, allow me to restate myself.
I do not care if you are the root of WCGs problems. I do not care of your co-workers are the root of the problems. I do not care if your bosses are the root of the problems.
There are enormous, unacceptable problems with WCG
Fix it
(and stop referring to me by my first name. I have no idea who you are)
Hahahahahahaha... that last sentence is going to give me joy for at least a week.
It's OK Laurent, they're only mean because they care so much!
I don't really know my stance on this. WCG USA sucks and has done so for so long it's laughable. Tournaments I can create in 30 seconds on iCCup are more organized than this annual shit. I remember one year, also ladder-based qualification, where one really good player was left out due to abuses at the top of the ladder: he finished 5th, the 4 best got to go.
Still, I doubt a boycot is the right answer, and we risk losing SC as a WCG game which would really suck. It's also quite clear that Laurent doesn't know what he's doing, but I doubt he can be held responsible for all the bad things.
Ideally WCG would just host the entire thing on iCCup and let that be the end of it. iCCup rules, end of fucking story.
I think the hopes for this WCG have been inflated too high with iNc getting into that ultimate gamer show. I don't think any of us should have expected any better from WCG, I mean they have been disappointing BW fans for many years now... At this point, with SC2 on the verge, I don't think WCG has any real reason to give a shit about SC.
Of course that doesn't mean I'm fucking pissed with the way WCG is handling themselves.
On April 19 2009 09:43 FragKrag wrote: I think the hopes for this WCG have been inflated too high with iNc getting into that ultimate gamer show. I don't think any of us should have expected any better from WCG, I mean they have been disappointing BW fans for many years now... At this point, with SC2 on the verge, I don't think WCG has any real reason to give a shit about SC.
Of course that doesn't mean I'm fucking pissed with the way WCG is handling themselves.
Well yes, but I mean it's not just that they aren't doing better, it's that they're managing to do worse somehow.
The thing with WCG is they use the gaming market as a huge advertisement for their products. I'm not going to lie though, when I was a referee for WCG they did listen to the gamers as well. I had asked for certain things and they gave them.
I'll be boycotting it too.. It makes me sad because I believe this year I actually had a chance of getting somewhere in WCG. (Not taking 1st obviously) And I have a feeling by this time next year SC2 will be out..
On April 19 2009 09:43 FragKrag wrote: I think the hopes for this WCG have been inflated too high with iNc getting into that ultimate gamer show. I don't think any of us should have expected any better from WCG, I mean they have been disappointing BW fans for many years now... At this point, with SC2 on the verge, I don't think WCG has any real reason to give a shit about SC.
Of course that doesn't mean I'm fucking pissed with the way WCG is handling themselves.
Well yes, but I mean it's not just that they aren't doing better, it's that they're managing to do worse somehow.
The feeling I get from the forums is that WCG is starting to respond. The boycott idea is a good way to jolt them into action, but it might not even be necessary anymore.
I feel much sorrow for the pure and dedicated USA BW gamers that actually want to make a difference and I agree completely with Day's suggestion of a WCG Boycott but I really think this will just end in cheapskates taking advantage that many of the good players that deserve to be there won't play and they will end up shaming USA at WCG.
On April 18 2009 01:35 G5 wrote: WCG should just sit down with me for 30 minutes and I will tell them how to run a good, lan latency / AH / good maps / fun tournament where everyone is happy. I honestly could have ran a better tournament when I was 13....
I think if you were able to win usa wcg and then very publicly denouce wcg, the admin staff and key players and short comings and then withdrew. It would affect wcg alot more and give it alot worse light then you boycotting at this stage.
Well, from everything I read thus far in all the WCG threads it would appear Incontrol the steamboat Robinson has everything under control, as his name would imply..
It looks like many of you have read around Tadzio's post. I think it deserves a little more attention:
On April 18 2009 07:49 Tadzio wrote: Isn't this called a strike, not a boycott?... and don't they tend to fail if you don't have some sorta player's-union (that even crappy players join) backing you up? I hope I'm not being too picky about word choice here... it's just a strike and a boycott are very different strategies. One bottleneck's supply, the other cripples or eliminates demand. Both are a fairly dangerous games to play with a company that's supports other videogames over BW already. What sorta options do you have?
For 1) WCG isn't just about BW. If you organize a boycott, the corporates may interpret that as the game being dead. That's bad for BW as e-sports. Demand for BW must remain high. So...
2) A strike may seem in order, but this'll require some organization. You wanna start up a nation-wide (or even international) player's union? I wouldn't suggest half-assing it if you do, cuz it is really easy for a strike to be broken if there isn't a strong union. If the strike breaks, what you're doing becomes an empty gesture that only hurts yourself and those you convince to follow you. I mean... if you were a superstar or you could convince a superstar to follow you, you might be able to affect something, but unfortunately I don't believe USA BW has anyone that qualifies as the face of BW.
There's a third option, I guess... you could force capital flight (get WCG's sponsors to back out), but that'd be bad for e-sports in general, would involve massive scale letter writing campaigns, boycotts and strikes (or a new federal tax on e-sports sponsorships, lol) and I wouldn't suggest any of that.
A fourth option would be to start up a competitor...
Sigh... I think I'm sounding a bit too negative. I think ideally you should work with WCG to make their BW tournaments top-notch... but if they're not listening to you it becomes a really rotten situation. Sad to hear about.
Good luck with whatever you decide. If you want it to work, take it seriously and go all the way with it.
Yes, there are many problems with the WCG, but if many of you choose to sit this one out then this would be the icing on the cake for Starcraft at the WCG. Definitely, with SC2 right around the corner and what is stopping the WCG from picking up another console game or dropping SC:BW altogether?
I think most of us can agree its one of the best games to spectate. But does anyone of us really want to see DDR on center stage?
Annnd... to paraphrase our beloved Dan: "Sweet, now I'll play and win."
On April 21 2009 19:53 Showtime! wrote:I think most of us can agree its one of the best games to spectate. But does anyone of us really want to see DDR on center stage?
I think if you were able to win usa wcg and then very publicly denouce wcg, the admin staff and key players and short comings and then withdrew. It would affect wcg alot more and give it alot worse light then you boycotting at this stage.
I think it would actually be kind of petty, furthermore that's the kind of scene that only plays out well in movies. Day's doing the mature thing.
Well, you have to take into consideration that this could very well be the last time we see SC:BW in WCG. Why waste it on this? Might as well go out there and compete rather then be angry and bitter. I want to see you and all the other guys playing for a spot in the WCG finals.
Why are hacks a problem during WCG? As I saw it here, in Poland, there was everything already installed, players could bring their mouse/keyboard with them and install drivers with referee supervising this procedure and that's it. All you could do was launch SC and change settings there. No real way to use any hacks (and all matches were shown on huge screens for audience so this would be noticed I believe).
On April 22 2009 06:01 Manit0u wrote: Why are hacks a problem during WCG? As I saw it here, in Poland, there was everything already installed, players could bring their mouse/keyboard with them and install drivers with referee supervising this procedure and that's it. All you could do was launch SC and change settings there. No real way to use any hacks (and all matches were shown on huge screens for audience so this would be noticed I believe).
On April 22 2009 06:01 Manit0u wrote: Why are hacks a problem during WCG? As I saw it here, in Poland, there was everything already installed, players could bring their mouse/keyboard with them and install drivers with referee supervising this procedure and that's it. All you could do was launch SC and change settings there. No real way to use any hacks (and all matches were shown on huge screens for audience so this would be noticed I believe).
On April 20 2009 16:50 Rekrul wrote: well if all you all are gunna boycott i'm gunna play and win
TY
you still couldn't win, clown.
boycotting won't do anything; they're still going to get their eyeball quota regardless if the better competitors don't go. just wait until there is more demand and more competition for SC2. if inc or laurent can get the go ahead from management that'd be kick ass, but otherwise just go and play. if you win, tell everyone in the interview not to buy samsung shit until wcg publicly announces they'll take real action against cheating and abuse and stop ignoring their player base.
I'm writing to you from the WCG HQ in South Korea where we are hard at work improving the GamOn launcher. I see many valid concerns in this thread and would like to share our thoughts and ask you to help us improve the launcher even further. Here, I'd like to only talk about the launcher and not about the operations of the tournament itself.
1) No Lan Latency
- A beta version has been completed and is in testing. We plan to release a new version of GamOn launcher next Monday. - Are there any other features that should be added to improve the launcher further? Please let us know.
3) An outdated anti-hack launcher that runs poorly (GamOn crashes regularly and many maphacks are compatible)
- GamOn crash was related to an issue with "]" character used in nicks. It has since been resolved and the client is much more stable. - We've also added checks for ZynMapHack. - Are there any other map hacks that we should add? We want to make our launcher the most secure, so please help!!!
4) Maps that not only are outdated, but also change depending on where you read the rules (some places it says Tau Cross, Blue Storm, Python, Gaia, while other places say Azalea, Paranoid, Gaia, and Peaks of Baekdu).
- There was definitely a confusion regarding the rules somewhere. The maps are Tau Cross, Blue Storm, Python and Gaia. - We looked at adding Destination and Medusa but both maps do not work properly within the map editor provided by Starcraft. Unfortunately, Blizzard signs the maps using a slightly modified version of the map editor found within Starcraft, so signing and saving the maps will result in corrupt maps. We are sorry that we cannot update the map packs to add the current and popular maps at this time.
We realize that it may already be too late, but we want to listen to the community and work with the community to improve our online tournaments. I thank you for reading this and please send any comments and feedback to me. My contact information can be found below.
Thank you,
Sang Hong World Cyber Games / Manager of Contents Development e-mail: sanger at wcg dot com
Sanger, thanks for real answers. Refreshing to see this and I'm sure you've brought a lot of optimism on WCG's Starcraft event.
Once lan latency is implemented, and the gamon client is functional, I think a great deal (most by far) of the community will feel much better about this event.
- There was definitely a confusion regarding the rules somewhere. The maps are Tau Cross, Blue Storm, Python and Gaia. - We looked at adding Destination and Medusa but both maps do not work properly within the map editor provided by Starcraft. Unfortunately, Blizzard signs the maps using a slightly modified version of the map editor found within Starcraft, so signing and saving the maps will result in corrupt maps. We are sorry that we cannot update the map packs to add the current and popular maps at this time.
- There was definitely a confusion regarding the rules somewhere. The maps are Tau Cross, Blue Storm, Python and Gaia. - We looked at adding Destination and Medusa but both maps do not work properly within the map editor provided by Starcraft. Unfortunately, Blizzard signs the maps using a slightly modified version of the map editor found within Starcraft, so signing and saving the maps will result in corrupt maps. We are sorry that we cannot update the map packs to add the current and popular maps at this time.
why do you need to do anything to the maps?
The way WCGZONE Battle.net ladders works is that we tag your account to a specific league (World Cyber Games League for example), and each player needs to create room by choosing World Cyber Games League game type and creating a map that is defined for that league. This rule defining process requires Blizzard authorize the maps and save them. I hope that was a clear enough explanation.
Don't even bother to boycott it. I can't believe this "issue" with Destination and Medusa. Every player in the whole world play the iCCup versions which work perfectly. What's wrong with theses guys?
On April 22 2009 21:16 CoL_Drake wrote: i not understand why they haver to change the maps .. just use the promaps from korea desi medusa etc and fine ...
They can't open them with map editor so they probably figured out they were laggy. hahahaha
On April 22 2009 19:17 IdrA wrote: can the launcher not be changed to recognize a different game type?
The problem is the map signature. If you remove the map signature (i.e that little blizz icon onthe map) you will suddenly be able to create a game on any map in WCG mode.
TBH, ask some friendly players on BWMN.net to copy the maps to a editable format so WCG can use them or something. I dont think anyone can claim copyright on a SC map anyway
On April 22 2009 19:17 IdrA wrote: can the launcher not be changed to recognize a different game type?
The problem is the map signature. If you remove the map signature (i.e that little blizz icon onthe map) you will suddenly be able to create a game on any map in WCG mode.
hence why i asked if they could make it so you dont have to use wcg mode
On April 22 2009 19:17 IdrA wrote: can the launcher not be changed to recognize a different game type?
The problem is the map signature. If you remove the map signature (i.e that little blizz icon onthe map) you will suddenly be able to create a game on any map in WCG mode.
hence why i asked if they could make it so you dont have to use wcg mode
well logically their tracker probably wouldnt note the game in that case... I dont really understand what you're getting at tbh. If you had the tracker set to, for example, only UMSmode maps, you would still need a signature on the map or you could theoretically win the online preliminaries by constantly playing evolves.
On April 22 2009 19:17 IdrA wrote: can the launcher not be changed to recognize a different game type?
The problem is the map signature. If you remove the map signature (i.e that little blizz icon onthe map) you will suddenly be able to create a game on any map in WCG mode.
hence why i asked if they could make it so you dont have to use wcg mode
well logically their tracker probably wouldnt note the game in that case... I dont really understand what you're getting at tbh. If you had the tracker set to, for example, only UMSmode maps, you would still need a signature on the map or you could theoretically win the online preliminaries by constantly playing evolves.
what? just set it to check for one vs one mode if 2 people who both have gamon on play a one vs one then it records the result. wgt used to work that way i think, before blizzard fucked it all up
As of right now, WCGZONE GamOn Launcher has been updated to include automatic support for LAN Latency. Currently, it makes all games default to LAN Latency (L=2)
Please test it and let us know how well it works on your system. and if there are any features that we should include, such as the variable Latency. (making room name ending with _L3 gives Latency 3).
Please make sure the Release Version of GamOn Launcher reads # GamOn 2.1 Launcher : Release Version 2.1.0.3 (Apr 23 2009 14:02:30)
We've had some machines which didn't update properly. As you all probably know, every machine needs to set same latency so everyone needs to be running GamOn or it will desync and the game will not work properly.
Thanks! Sang Hong World Cyber Games / Manager of Contents Development sanger at wcg dot com
any rational person couldnt argue with those problems. my favortie was the different lists of the map pools. bad maps is one thing, but conflicting lists that mess with peoples practicing? how that was just rediculous.
On April 22 2009 19:17 IdrA wrote: can the launcher not be changed to recognize a different game type?
The problem is the map signature. If you remove the map signature (i.e that little blizz icon onthe map) you will suddenly be able to create a game on any map in WCG mode.
hence why i asked if they could make it so you dont have to use wcg mode
well logically their tracker probably wouldnt note the game in that case... I dont really understand what you're getting at tbh. If you had the tracker set to, for example, only UMSmode maps, you would still need a signature on the map or you could theoretically win the online preliminaries by constantly playing evolves.
what? just set it to check for one vs one mode if 2 people who both have gamon on play a one vs one then it records the result. wgt used to work that way i think, before blizzard fucked it all up
Yes, but in that way there still isnt any control what map is being used. Just by toggling one on one mode doesnt mean that previously mentioned four maps are the only ones selectable to play on.
Think of it as the old Blizzard ladder. When you picked Ladder mode you could only play maps with a ladder signature, as added on certain maps (ex Lost Temple), thus there was some kind of control what map was played. Its the exact same thing here. When you play in WCG mode, only maps with this certain blizzard signature can be played. And this signature is added by a special version of Staredit, one which cannot open locked korean pro maps.
Its remarkably simple really. If you just read what i actually write you wont have to restate your question all the time. its already been answered back and forth...
On April 22 2009 19:17 IdrA wrote: can the launcher not be changed to recognize a different game type?
The problem is the map signature. If you remove the map signature (i.e that little blizz icon onthe map) you will suddenly be able to create a game on any map in WCG mode.
hence why i asked if they could make it so you dont have to use wcg mode
well logically their tracker probably wouldnt note the game in that case... I dont really understand what you're getting at tbh. If you had the tracker set to, for example, only UMSmode maps, you would still need a signature on the map or you could theoretically win the online preliminaries by constantly playing evolves.
what? just set it to check for one vs one mode if 2 people who both have gamon on play a one vs one then it records the result. wgt used to work that way i think, before blizzard fucked it all up
Yes, but in that way there still isnt any control what map is being used. Just by toggling one on one mode doesnt mean that previously mentioned four maps are the only ones selectable to play on.
Think of it as the old Blizzard ladder. When you picked Ladder mode you could only play maps with a ladder signature, as added on certain maps (ex Lost Temple), thus there was some kind of control what map was played. Its the exact same thing here. When you play in WCG mode, only maps with this certain blizzard signature can be played. And this signature is added by a special version of Staredit, one which cannot open locked korean pro maps.
Its remarkably simple really. If you just read what i actually write you wont have to restate your question all the time. its already been answered back and forth...
replay records map information, since it shows it in bwchart, replays can be uploaded to a site directly through the launcher. wgt's use to do it. therefore the site has access to the replay and the map name. set it to only accept games played on specific maps. this has all been done before. dont really see why youre arguing.
We realize the importance of LAN latency and this feature has actually been in the works for incorporation into the launcher during the third week of May, but due to the amount of e-mails we received and the huge thread here, we decided to shift things around and bring it out a little earlier than we planned.
We will continue to play test during the week and over the weekend. The next tournament will definitely be much less "laggy".
Regarding the maps, Starparty really summarized it well. I'd like to point out that many Korean pro maps even when unlocked can be opened by StarEdit but when saved it gets corrupted. For example, one of the maps when saved were changed so that there were terrains missing which gave crazy huge advantage to one of the players. As we work directly with KeSPA and map creators, it's a simple matter to get the permission to use the maps and to get unlocked maps, but as the data gets corrupted during the signing process, we haven't been able to use it for our ladders. Hope this gives a better insight.
Having said that, we are working on other methods of play like LAN over Internet with map CRC checking and automatic replay collection for results saving for operations of smaller scale tournaments.
Thanks, Sang Hong World Cyber Games / Manager of Contents Development sanger at wcg dot com
oh so you are saying that with practice (continually) you are able to maintain this level? I always assumed it was some kind of ingrained talent or something.
? congratulating them on catching up to 2 years ago is not good posting i was making valid complaints about the map pool and then pointing out that they have not accomplished anything noteworthy. inc then diverted the discussion.
I'm not talking about your valid complaints idra. Those were all fine. Your extreme negativity towards any improvement doesn't compliment the fact that 'hey guys we are happy'. Just because other people have done it better doesn't mean you have to be so cynical. They are reading this thread, they do have programmers on the job fixing the problems.
I'll make it simple. Are you happy they raised there standards? That is my point really. Be happy for ten fucking seconds man. Smiling gets easier the more you do it =).
i think the only reason dino wont be playing will be because of inactivity, not due to the no hack policy or im sure hed be bashing you some more ^^. i think this is great im really glad this is all fixed and when are the tournaments going to start? any clue inc? and also idra lol stop being such a debby downer geez
On April 24 2009 23:39 likeaboss wrote: i think the only reason dino wont be playing will be because of inactivity, not due to the no hack policy or im sure hed be bashing you some more ^^. i think this is great im really glad this is all fixed and when are the tournaments going to start? any clue inc? and also idra lol stop being such a debby downer geez
I THINK the next tourney starts on schedule which is like may 5th or something? Not sure.. but with this working perfectly they will start asap.
Let's not break out the champagne yet gentlemen...
Idra's comment on what years of mediocrity does to standards is right on. In criminal kidnappings and torture victims there is something called Stockholm Syndrome where a kidnapped prisoner actually thanks the guy who is torturing him if he does something slightly nice. it's a total loss of perspective. let's remember this is still wcg. these celebrations over one email message are insane. do you think wcg has no problems now that the lan latency thing (which was egregiously retarded to even be an issue for two seconds, like no where else in the BW tourney world) is fixed?
basically the SC community is a guy, and WCG organization has been kicking us in the nuts and poking us in the eye. now they stopped poking us in the eye and continue kicking us in the nuts, so we thank them.
On April 25 2009 00:08 fast ball player wrote: Let's not break out the champagne yet gentlemen...
Idra's comment on what years of mediocrity does to standards is right on. In criminal kidnappings and torture victims there is something called Stockholm Syndrome where a kidnapped prisoner actually thanks the guy who is torturing him if he does something slightly nice. it's a total loss of perspective. let's remember this is still wcg. these celebrations over one email message are insane. do you think wcg has no problems now that the lan latency thing (which was egregiously retarded to even be an issue for two seconds, like no where else in the BW tourney world) is fixed?
basically the SC community is a guy, and WCG organization has been kicking us in the nuts and poking us in the eye. now they stopped poking us in the eye and continue kicking us in the nuts, so we thank them.
Except we have absolutely no reason to NOT be happy about these speedy responses. Continuing to be bitter because they are long overdue is nothing but pessimistic. They didn't have to make these fixes and we'd still participate kicking and screaming because we have NO other choice in tourneys (I can get into how as a long term model this is bad for them but with bare facts: they didn't have to do this).
We got what we wanted. That is reason enough to be happy. I am thankful that I won't have a crashing program and I WILL have lan latency for my online qualification of the most important tourney of the year.
Sanger/Geoff and everyone else who contributed. Thank you for all the hard work trying to improve wcg usa~ much Love <3 so happy now that i have lan latency!!! cheers
After playing my tourney match yesterday on the Gamon client, the lan latency feature of the Gamon launcher is better than low latency on iccup. Fucking nice.
On April 30 2009 08:44 Mr.E wrote: I'm suprised that no one else has said this...
After playing my tourney match yesterday on the Gamon client, the lan latency feature of the Gamon launcher is better than low latency on iccup. Fucking nice.
How many people actually got to play yesterday, it was mostly W.O.s as far as I saw.
first 2 rounds were played yesterday. I got a by on first round and won 2nd round. My friend deraef had opponents for both rounds and got w.o on both. Probably mostly w.o's
EPT
poor organization isnt helping, just let geoff help you do your job, he understands what the sc community wants/needs more
).
.... lol.. i don really watch unless its the USA finals or world finals anyway...
.
