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On February 15 2009 07:52 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2009 07:44 Hydrolisko wrote:On February 15 2009 07:41 Shikyo wrote:On February 15 2009 07:39 Hydrolisko wrote:
why has the video been removed??? I watched it hours ago and it worked fine. I am watching it again now and it still works just perfectly. Unless you mean some other video that I'm unaware of. on youtube? can you link me? It says user has removed video for me. Why would you try to find the videos on youtube when www.youku.com has all the videos up like an hour after the matches are done? http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNzIwMTMzNzI=.htmlLink to the first match of CJ vs Lecaf.
because its annoying as hell trying to get youku fullscreen to work
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What I do is use this site to download the youku videos. Then you can use whatever media player you want to play them!
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Unfortunately Youku is blocked from where I am... (Japan. I wonder why.)
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On February 15 2009 05:26 koreasilver wrote:
Jaedong always gets screwed by these things. It's his fault, really.
Yeah, he gets overconfident in his own micro ability. I think part of the reason he goes 12 hatch even if he can smell a rush coming is cuz he wants to show off his oh so awesome drone micro. When it works, he looks amazing, but when it doesn't, he looks retarded.
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Jaedong is getting too cocky i guess. this is why every pro slumps.
They gotta treat every game like its 2-2 tiebreaking for a title.
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Uh guys
you do realize that it's too early in the game to "smell a rush coming" before you 12 hatch?
if a zerg goes 9pool or overpool vs. terran it's because they had it planned in advance. there's nothing indicating that jaedong got "too cocky with micro". that's a completely unfounded claim.
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On February 17 2009 10:42 StRyKeR wrote:
Uh guys
you do realize that it's too early in the game to "smell a rush coming" before you 12 hatch?
if a zerg goes 9pool or overpool vs. terran it's because they had it planned in advance. there's nothing indicating that jaedong got "too cocky with micro". that's a completely unfounded claim.
Uh, that's exactly the problem
Skyhigh vs Jaedong? Really? Anyone saw this snipe coming from 50 miles away so in response Jaedong 12 hatches... and then does NOT scout. The combined factor of no scouting + 12 hatch is a pretty glaring "WTF?" moment to me given the circumstances. They had to have known that CJ had a response to Jaedong because I mean, that's really all that stood in their way.
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i still stand by the argument that it was surprise that owned jaedong, not cockiness. if jaedong were really cocky he would have brought out 4 drones to super micro his way out of a bunker rush. he brought like 7, just to be sure.
if jaedong even guessed such a brilliant cheese would occur he wouldn't have ruled out the possibility and would have scouted.
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It's obvious the coaching staff isn't stupid. What I think happened is that after practicing on this map, they decided the best way to fend off a cheese is to 12 Hatch like 7 drones, like Stryker mentioned, and fast gas. However, no one could have expected the depth of Skyhigh's plan, so that's why it seemed as if they didn't prepare for it. It's not possible that the coaching staff didn't see this coming. It's just hard to see the logic behind it when things don't work out. IMO.
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On February 17 2009 14:35 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2009 10:42 StRyKeR wrote:
Uh guys
you do realize that it's too early in the game to "smell a rush coming" before you 12 hatch?
if a zerg goes 9pool or overpool vs. terran it's because they had it planned in advance. there's nothing indicating that jaedong got "too cocky with micro". that's a completely unfounded claim. Uh, that's exactly the problem Skyhigh vs Jaedong? Really? Anyone saw this snipe coming from 50 miles away so in response Jaedong 12 hatches... and then does NOT scout. The combined factor of no scouting + 12 hatch is a pretty glaring "WTF?" moment to me given the circumstances. They had to have known that CJ had a response to Jaedong because I mean, that's really all that stood in their way.
Got to agree with this. Whether it was surprise or cockiness that got him, Jaedong should have been on his toes. He should have understood that this guy had been sent out to snipe him, and even worse, on a two player map. He should have been prepared for something cheesy, or at the very least, scout early! For the love of god!
Jaedong remains one of the most mechanically skilled players to play the game. But his metagame sense is what's going to keep him from accomplishing what July or Savior have done.
Granted, this is just one game and everyone makes mistakes, but he's made mistakes like this before. You don't need precognition to anticipate a cheese like this, you just have to be smart. Sometimes, you just have to play it safe.
Think, Jaedong! You could be so much greater than you are!
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Of course, with hindsight it's easy to say that Jaedong should have scouted after 12hatching.
12hatch is THE most standard opening in ZvT, and it's so standardized that it's actually weird if a Zerg doesn't 12hatch in ZvT, even if progamers have started to deviate these recent days.
Jaedong opened in a very normal manner; he wasn't expecting what Skyhigh brought for that game, and seriously, would anyone have expected what Skyhigh was going to do that game? Proxy rax bunker rush into mech build sure, since it's been used many times on the map, but NO ONE would have expected a proxy in-base barrack with a fake bunker rush.
It is Jaedong's fault for being rather vulnerable in the early game, but saying that he was stupid for 12hatching and not drone scouting is pretty stupid.
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On February 13 2009 08:50 Origami wrote:
Looking at the map list and the potential threats (namely Jaedong), I have to guess that this match is going to be all about the Terrans for CJ. Every single map outside of map 1 and 7 has a noticeable T>Z ratio.
If CJ can force out Jaedong early without losing Skyhigh early, they might actually win. I honestly feel it's going to come down to that.
WTF can you read minds? He posted this on the first page before results were in.
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On February 17 2009 15:11 koreasilver wrote:
Of course, with hindsight it's easy to say that Jaedong should have scouted after 12hatching.
12hatch is THE most standard opening in ZvT, and it's so standardized that it's actually weird if a Zerg doesn't 12hatch in ZvT, even if progamers have started to deviate these recent days.
Jaedong opened in a very normal manner; he wasn't expecting what Skyhigh brought for that game, and seriously, would anyone have expected what Skyhigh was going to do that game? Proxy rax bunker rush into mech build sure, since it's been used many times on the map, but NO ONE would have expected a proxy in-base barrack with a fake bunker rush.
It is Jaedong's fault for being rather vulnerable in the early game, but saying that he was stupid for 12hatching and not drone scouting is pretty stupid.
You're absolutely right in that Skyhigh really did a brilliant Proxy in-base fake bunker rush strategy.
The only problem I have is using a standard opening against an opponent you can be 90% sure is about to have a very specific build to throw you off.
It is Jaedong though and it is OZ, they probably DO know better. If they thought 12 hatch was the way to go there isn't really a thing I can do to dispute it.
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BTW iirc jaedongs overlord saw for like a second the scv.
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It's just a cheese.
Skyhigh was not super smart or anything.
Jaedongs was not super stupid or anything.
It was just a cheese, which is fine.
But not fun.
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Skyhigh's build was pretty brilliant. If he tried to do a normal bunker rush it probably would have failed as Jaedong was obviously prepared for it because he reacted like fucking lightning to the bunker, and he already got owned by a bunker rush in a rather humiliating way by FBH on the same map.
It wasn't "just a cheese", it was a smart build by Skyhigh.
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On February 17 2009 15:11 erin[go]bragh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2009 14:35 Jayme wrote:On February 17 2009 10:42 StRyKeR wrote:
Uh guys
you do realize that it's too early in the game to "smell a rush coming" before you 12 hatch?
if a zerg goes 9pool or overpool vs. terran it's because they had it planned in advance. there's nothing indicating that jaedong got "too cocky with micro". that's a completely unfounded claim. Uh, that's exactly the problem Skyhigh vs Jaedong? Really? Anyone saw this snipe coming from 50 miles away so in response Jaedong 12 hatches... and then does NOT scout. The combined factor of no scouting + 12 hatch is a pretty glaring "WTF?" moment to me given the circumstances. They had to have known that CJ had a response to Jaedong because I mean, that's really all that stood in their way. Got to agree with this. Whether it was surprise or cockiness that got him, Jaedong should have been on his toes. He should have understood that this guy had been sent out to snipe him, and even worse, on a two player map. He should have been prepared for something cheesy, or at the very least, scout early! For the love of god! Jaedong remains one of the most mechanically skilled players to play the game. But his metagame sense is what's going to keep him from accomplishing what July or Savior have done. Granted, this is just one game and everyone makes mistakes, but he's made mistakes like this before. You don't need precognition to anticipate a cheese like this, you just have to be smart. Sometimes, you just have to play it safe. Think, Jaedong! You could be so much greater than you are!
No, Jaedong really had no chance since he did not know of such a strategy. The element of surprise was 95% of the win. Suppose we go with what you say and Jaedong scouted early, say ridiculously early, with the 9th drone. Would he have sent it to 5 o'clock? Nay. He would have sent it to Skyhigh's base. He would have seen no barracks at home and correctly guessed cheese. Would he have guessed that there was a barracks at 5 o'clock? Terrans can build a barracks anywhere. It might have been in the center and Jaedong could have missed it. It could be at 7 o'clock (which happened before). It could be anywhere, really. He would then send 5 drones out to his nat, where the SCV will have begun making a bunker.
And the same thing we saw in this game would have repeated, because it wasn't about scouting the cheese. No one checks 5 o'clock, and it wasn't on the list of potential cheeses that Jaedong was considering. The entire strategy hinged on Jaedong not knowing the possibility of an in-base rax.
Zerg players will now realize to send the second overlord behind the mineral line first, but this was not a mistake in-game. It's like Jaedong played against someone who found an "EASY" button hidden in the corner of the map and all it took to counter it was to press it first. It was purely a metagame mistake, and as you said, part of the metagame sense that Jaedong needs to get better at.
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On February 17 2009 15:08 Avidkeystamper wrote:
It's obvious the coaching staff isn't stupid. What I think happened is that after practicing on this map, they decided the best way to fend off a cheese is to 12 Hatch like 7 drones, like Stryker mentioned, and fast gas. However, no one could have expected the depth of Skyhigh's plan, so that's why it seemed as if they didn't prepare for it. It's not possible that the coaching staff didn't see this coming. It's just hard to see the logic behind it when things don't work out. IMO.
This is a really smart post
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EPT
