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On January 25 2008 20:34 LaZyScV wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2008 20:27 Aesop wrote:
Lets say that Goliaths against Carriers are a slightly unwise choice considering the peculiarities of this map. But what else is there to play for terrans? I think it might be good would be to counter it with mass Wraiths, no countering with goliaths + dropships - or at least use them properly and not run 3 straight into 8 carriers!
I think an early aggressive MM build into MM/Tank contain to drop would probably be nice, at least vs. the gay reaver drop>carrier rush build. Heavy marines can take care of early shuttle harass as well as early carrier via kill interceptors ez.
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4/4
Wasn't going to get burned hoping Savior will start winning games again, plus it was Katrina.
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4/4 yeah we have some decent protoss here !!  BeSt in the OSL, Kal in the MSL
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beating nowadays savior doesn't make a protoss decent ...
At least seeing frozean lose was nice ...
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On January 25 2008 20:51 trollbone wrote:4/4 yeah we have some decent protoss here !! Much in the OSL, Anytime in the MSL
fixed
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On January 25 2008 20:42 noobienoob wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2008 20:34 LaZyScV wrote:On January 25 2008 20:27 Aesop wrote:
Lets say that Goliaths against Carriers are a slightly unwise choice considering the peculiarities of this map. But what else is there to play for terrans? I think it might be good would be to counter it with mass Wraiths, no countering with goliaths + dropships - or at least use them properly and not run 3 straight into 8 carriers! I think an early aggressive MM build into MM/Tank contain to drop would probably be nice, at least vs. the gay reaver drop>carrier rush build. Heavy marines can take care of early shuttle harass as well as early carrier via kill interceptors ez.
it could work in theory.. but when the toss sees the mm, and he will see because you have to reveal them to use, he won't build early carriers, just sticks to reaver + ground force..
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On January 25 2008 21:06 Agahnim wrote:fixed
you don't have to fix if it's not broken.. Best for the win!
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On January 25 2008 21:13 freelander wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2008 20:42 noobienoob wrote:On January 25 2008 20:34 LaZyScV wrote:On January 25 2008 20:27 Aesop wrote:
Lets say that Goliaths against Carriers are a slightly unwise choice considering the peculiarities of this map. But what else is there to play for terrans? I think it might be good would be to counter it with mass Wraiths, no countering with goliaths + dropships - or at least use them properly and not run 3 straight into 8 carriers! I think an early aggressive MM build into MM/Tank contain to drop would probably be nice, at least vs. the gay reaver drop>carrier rush build. Heavy marines can take care of early shuttle harass as well as early carrier via kill interceptors ez. it could work in theory.. but when the toss sees the mm, and he will see because you have to reveal them to use, he won't build early carriers, just sticks to reaver + ground force.. yeah, but hopefully by then the toss will have taken out his own assimilators, if not the terran killing the enemy assimilators himself. but yeah, pretty tough for that build to work anyway especially considering the rush distance between bases :/
ISLAND MAPS = IMBA jk :p nite
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On January 25 2008 20:42 noobienoob wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2008 20:34 LaZyScV wrote:On January 25 2008 20:27 Aesop wrote:
Lets say that Goliaths against Carriers are a slightly unwise choice considering the peculiarities of this map. But what else is there to play for terrans? I think it might be good would be to counter it with mass Wraiths, no countering with goliaths + dropships - or at least use them properly and not run 3 straight into 8 carriers! I think an early aggressive MM build into MM/Tank contain to drop would probably be nice, at least vs. the gay reaver drop>carrier rush build. Heavy marines can take care of early shuttle harass as well as early carrier via kill interceptors ez.
Good job! You figured out how to counter someone in brood war when you can see into the future and know their build ahead of time! Unfortuneately it doesnt work that way
Make no mistake. Frozean reacted very well to muches build. Under normal circumstances he wouldve won. However he got FUCKED royally in the early game sequences. Much got 6 or 7 scv kills + a marine. Then much reacted perfectly and killed his front gases while frozean did a fricking 8 scv all in attack! THEN much expanded and got that up earlier. And STILL frozean made a game out of it despite much's perfect carrier micro and frozean being very sloppy with dropships.
To some otheres: Please stop saying bullshit about the balance of the map at this point. It's much too early to tell, and that game was no indication what so ever.
Dropship + Goliath is a perfectly fine counter to muchs build. Frozean just needed better execution throughout the game, specially early game. Stop this black and white theorycrafting, when execution is the main factor.
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Hungary11305 Posts
On January 25 2008 20:34 LaZyScV wrote:
P has lost its game(s?) against Z on Troy as far as I know.
Yarnc beat Backho on this one, as the only match ZvP so far. I think the imbalance is not as bad, as the protoss has to leave his base to claim the fast expansion, which is wide open for the zerg to attack.
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On January 25 2008 21:35 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2008 20:42 noobienoob wrote:On January 25 2008 20:34 LaZyScV wrote:On January 25 2008 20:27 Aesop wrote:
Lets say that Goliaths against Carriers are a slightly unwise choice considering the peculiarities of this map. But what else is there to play for terrans? I think it might be good would be to counter it with mass Wraiths, no countering with goliaths + dropships - or at least use them properly and not run 3 straight into 8 carriers! I think an early aggressive MM build into MM/Tank contain to drop would probably be nice, at least vs. the gay reaver drop>carrier rush build. Heavy marines can take care of early shuttle harass as well as early carrier via kill interceptors ez. Good job! You figured out how to counter someone in brood war when you can see into the future and know their build ahead of time! Unfortuneately it doesnt work that way
Well what do you propose smarty? I was just thinking back to the Upmagic vs. Bisu game on Katrina (the one where he didn't get raped ), MM drops seemed pretty effective during that game.
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Troy looks balanced to me so far because of the many strategic options available to all races. EVENTUALLY there may be an imbalance but at this point theres just too many things to try, and too many things progamers will not be prepared for there to be any clear imbalance. A bit like 815 in some ways.
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On January 25 2008 21:39 noobienoob wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2008 21:35 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:On January 25 2008 20:42 noobienoob wrote:On January 25 2008 20:34 LaZyScV wrote:On January 25 2008 20:27 Aesop wrote:
Lets say that Goliaths against Carriers are a slightly unwise choice considering the peculiarities of this map. But what else is there to play for terrans? I think it might be good would be to counter it with mass Wraiths, no countering with goliaths + dropships - or at least use them properly and not run 3 straight into 8 carriers! I think an early aggressive MM build into MM/Tank contain to drop would probably be nice, at least vs. the gay reaver drop>carrier rush build. Heavy marines can take care of early shuttle harass as well as early carrier via kill interceptors ez. Good job! You figured out how to counter someone in brood war when you can see into the future and know their build ahead of time! Unfortuneately it doesnt work that way Well what do you propose smarty? I was just thinking back to the Upmagic vs. Bisu game on Katrina (the one where he didn't get raped ), MM drops seemed pretty effective during that game.
You missed the point. Of course mnm drops seem pretty effective after the fact. But frozean was already commited to something else. Switching strats at the point he scouted carrier wouldve been completely ineffcient and would have failed miserably. Of course if he had prepared mnm + tank drops from the begining it would have worked against THAT strat, but most likely in that case much would have used a completely different build. Do you see how that works?
Its like someone going 2 hatch lurker ling/all in. And you go, Hey terran shouldve just gone 3 rax 1 fact bunk/turret/tank push at front and owned the nat! Yes that wouldve worked but thats an extremely narrow and risky strategy that only works in certain situations. Just like Ups mnm drop. You dont see Up doing that every tvp do you? The idea behind pro gamer level play is to use the most versitile and effecient build possible and then streamline/adjust it based on what you scout. Certain very very intelligent bw pros will "read" there opponents and design builds specifically to counter there style. However, many progamers will randomly change their style and usual builds for just this reason.
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No I didn't miss the point, when he scouted that Much had destroyed his own assimilators, there's really only one logical build that would follow, and that would be carriers. Or DT/reaver drop, followed by guess what? Carriers. MM opens up viability for scan as well as the ability to somewhat prevent drops. So yeah.
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Ok I'll explain. Nice nick by the way.
In order to do a mnm drop strat after going 1 fact 1 starport no acad. Youd essentially have to go all in off one base. This is incredibly risky given the fact that off one base mnm/tank is not a very strong build and has a very small timing window. If you couple with this with the fact that frozean was at a significant disadvantage from muchs strong 2 zeal attack and failed scv all in the timing window is essentially none existant.
So frozean made the safer/more solid choice of using his existing units to do the maximum damage he could (and he was successful, taking out a nexus 3 goons and a shuttle with only 8 marines and 3 tanks). Keep in mind his attack was lauched ASAP off of 1 fact and 1 port after wraith. While making a cc. So the timing was about the same as a mnm + tank / dropship strategy wouldve been.
And there are many more logical builds on semi island maps besides simply rushing to carriers. Watch some anytime vods on 815
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Point well taken. I already agreed that the strat you quoted wouldn't work before you even posted it though. Oh well. I still think it's pretty obvious PvT is imbalanced in favor of P on this map, and not just because of carriers.
On January 25 2008 21:27 noobienoob wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2008 21:13 freelander wrote:On January 25 2008 20:42 noobienoob wrote:On January 25 2008 20:34 LaZyScV wrote:On January 25 2008 20:27 Aesop wrote:
Lets say that Goliaths against Carriers are a slightly unwise choice considering the peculiarities of this map. But what else is there to play for terrans? I think it might be good would be to counter it with mass Wraiths, no countering with goliaths + dropships - or at least use them properly and not run 3 straight into 8 carriers! I think an early aggressive MM build into MM/Tank contain to drop would probably be nice, at least vs. the gay reaver drop>carrier rush build. Heavy marines can take care of early shuttle harass as well as early carrier via kill interceptors ez. it could work in theory.. but when the toss sees the mm, and he will see because you have to reveal them to use, he won't build early carriers, just sticks to reaver + ground force.. yeah, but hopefully by then the toss will have taken out his own assimilators, if not the terran killing the enemy assimilators himself. but yeah, pretty tough for that build to work anyway especially considering the rush distance between bases :/ ISLAND MAPS = IMBA jk :p nite
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On January 25 2008 22:05 noobienoob wrote:Point well taken. I already agreed that the strat you quoted wouldn't work before you even posted it though. Oh well. I still think it's pretty obvious PvT is imbalanced in favor of P on this map, and not just because of carriers. Show nested quote +On January 25 2008 21:27 noobienoob wrote:On January 25 2008 21:13 freelander wrote:On January 25 2008 20:42 noobienoob wrote:On January 25 2008 20:34 LaZyScV wrote:On January 25 2008 20:27 Aesop wrote:
Lets say that Goliaths against Carriers are a slightly unwise choice considering the peculiarities of this map. But what else is there to play for terrans? I think it might be good would be to counter it with mass Wraiths, no countering with goliaths + dropships - or at least use them properly and not run 3 straight into 8 carriers! I think an early aggressive MM build into MM/Tank contain to drop would probably be nice, at least vs. the gay reaver drop>carrier rush build. Heavy marines can take care of early shuttle harass as well as early carrier via kill interceptors ez. it could work in theory.. but when the toss sees the mm, and he will see because you have to reveal them to use, he won't build early carriers, just sticks to reaver + ground force.. yeah, but hopefully by then the toss will have taken out his own assimilators, if not the terran killing the enemy assimilators himself. but yeah, pretty tough for that build to work anyway especially considering the rush distance between bases :/ ISLAND MAPS = IMBA jk :p nite
How is it obvious? I disagree Terran has a lot of options. And psst, you were the one who posted the strat;) I quoted you remember?
Even a solid FD style play into something like a expo -> 2 fact acad 4th fact 1 starport 2 armory + take third base is completely viable.
Not to mention many many gimmicky strats. Both obvious and undiscovered.
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Yes I admitted to myself before you posted my own quote that the strategy wouldn't work. As for the imbalance, let's take this as an example: 2 gate aggressive zeal into goon harass, but the target is just to take out an assimilator. After that, all factory units become useless until Terran gets dropships. What's a terran supposed to do there? Make a bunker?
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Yes ? If you scout a 2 gate before gas you would most definitely make a bunk near the gases. Pump rines off 1 fact and make an early vult then machine after. Use scvs to block the front and once you get your shop make a tank + siege mode. Then start cc. Youll be ahead if you micro well.
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The assimilator can't be repaired; once it dies, it dies. Sorry I meant 1gate zeal cyber>2 gate goon. After the assimilator goes down the toss pretty much gets to do whatever he wants. Well, now I'm thinking unit hop over gas with lifted builds, Lol
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EPT
