[SSL Autumn] Ro8 Day 2

On October 08 2024 20:03 TMNT wrote:
What is the bigger throw? Light's mech switch against Soulkey or Snow's all tech at once vs Speed?

On October 08 2024 20:24 TMNT wrote:
I think he would have won without the ensnare anyway. But yeah how do you stop that build?

On October 08 2024 20:52 prion_ wrote:
Unless SK has something really special prepped for Minstrel or Monty Hall Light still favored to win here.

On October 08 2024 21:05 TornadoSteve wrote:


as soon as Light was drawn against sk, he was not favored. The odds sk is not winning this tournament are below 30% at this point.

On October 08 2024 21:03 Simplistik wrote:
Can someone explain to me why Light doesn't defend against mutas in his main?

On October 08 2024 21:27 TMNT wrote:

Mentally checked out as someone said earlier, probably.

Also the last two maps are hugely in favour of Terran. Why couldn't he play standard? Light today reminds me of Mini vs Soulkey last season. Both opened the series with a Nexus/CC first build and got ahead, then just shot themselves in the foot repeatedly.

On October 08 2024 20:03 TMNT wrote:
What is the bigger throw? Light's mech switch against Soulkey or Snow's all tech at once vs Speed?

On October 08 2024 21:27 RowdierBob wrote:
SK too strong. Not sure who can beat him in a bo7.

On October 08 2024 20:01 PVJ wrote:
Also, also, also: The caster with Nyoken today, Xun from Saiyan's channel, is great, thanks for all the insight and play-by-play analysis. Great to hear this duo!

On October 09 2024 04:01 prion_ wrote:
Did Soulkey even make a defiler this series?

On October 08 2024 20:01 PVJ wrote:
Also, also, also: The caster with Nyoken today, Xun from Saiyan's channel, is great, thanks for all the insight and play-by-play analysis. Great to hear this duo!

On October 09 2024 08:01 Cricketer12 wrote:

Nope. No mound.

On October 09 2024 00:46 DOgMeAt wrote:

+1, amazing commentary

On October 09 2024 09:50 cheesehuehue wrote:


A defiler mound was started in the 5th game, but the game finished before the mound did.

On October 09 2024 16:31 gingerfluffmuffnr2 wrote:
Cant watch any other than Nyoken casting BW. Pure passion, entertainment is ok and deep knowledge with his partners makes the games super interesting.

Sadly the viewer numbers among english fans isnt based on merit alone, else other casters would be pretty doomed.


Seeing vultures trying to kill ultras is sad and funny at once. Light gets always hyped to heaven and never delivers

On October 09 2024 22:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Yep if he keeps going sk terran he literally never loses, even with the upgrades being a bit lacking. Honestly i think sk was really close to tapping out.

On October 09 2024 22:37 TornadoSteve wrote:
I am following the bw scene for a while now;
Besides prime Flash, i never seen a player as decisive as soulkey, ever.

On October 10 2024 00:20 Biff The Understudy wrote:

Prime Jaedong was insanely decisive. At the peak of his rivalry with Flash he really played like a machine. If there were any strategic or tactical opening, he would take it. He was genuinely terrifying.

On October 10 2024 01:31 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:


Jaedong played in an era where the game was played at a much simpler strategic level with less understanding of all possibilities and optimizations. It was easier to be decisive because the opponent had less options to choose from. Soulkey plays on a level I would argue is equal if not above flash's. The attention to detail in his flowchart decision making is unmatched. on top of that he has the best multitasking awareness/oversight over everything happening everywhere. But if anyone can/could take him it was either Light in standard game state, Rush in pure macro speed, or SnOw in pure micro control. But none of them surpass Soulkey's oversight and understanding.

On October 10 2024 01:31 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:


Jaedong played in an era where the game was played at a much simpler strategic level with less understanding of all possibilities and optimizations. It was easier to be decisive because the opponent had less options to choose from. Soulkey plays on a level I would argue is equal if not above flash's. The attention to detail in his flowchart decision making is unmatched. on top of that he has the best multitasking awareness/oversight over everything happening everywhere. But if anyone can/could take him it was either Light in standard game state, Rush in pure macro speed, or SnOw in pure micro control. But none of them surpass Soulkey's oversight and understanding.

On October 10 2024 01:45 Biff The Understudy wrote:

Interesting. You might be right though i think deeper knowledge both complexifies and simplifies your task. Your opponent might have many more options, but the flowchart of what works against what is also much better mapped out. It’s a bit like comparing modern chess players and folks from the 60s. Sure, current players have to know sooooo many more lines and know altogether so much more about the game, but someone like Fischer had to figure things out on the spot that today people know like the back of their hands.

I don’t want to argue that Jaedong was better than SK is, as you said those are different eras. But when it comes to killer instinct and pounding when you smell blood in the water, I think prime JD was an all time great.

Also, i think that while people have as much better knowledge of the game and arguably play at a higher level altogether, the scene was more competitive at the end of the KESPA era, when dozens and dozens of progamers practiced 8 hours a day in team houses. Jaedong was something like 70% ZvZ against insanely talented people who did nothing else than practice to get better.

On October 10 2024 01:50 TMNT wrote:

I wonder, where was this version of Soulkey before he won his first ASL. I know he also won a KSL before but for some reason his ASL results prior to season 16 were kind of lackluster. He also wasn't known for being a beast online either. What changed and when?

On October 10 2024 00:18 Biff The Understudy wrote:

That’s quite tragic. I wonder if it’s a case of not evaluating the situation properly or if he got into a bit of a strategic tunnel vision, and felt that he was committed on the switch even though he really wasn’t.

I feel like the ability to drastically change plans at any point is what makes the greatest players so good. I feel like Light didn’t quite bring the version of himself in this match. He still looked like a very strong Terran, but not an all time great. Soulkey really did though.

On October 10 2024 02:01 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:
Sometimes it also just takes a while for someone to have their breakthrough moment because something in their play is not yet in the right place. An example is Speed. I have followed him since 2019. He has always been fast, always had amazing control and multitasking, but he didn't utilize it like he does now. He joined team Ukkz late 2023 where he has both Light and Mini as co-members. He has without a doubt learned a lot from them two directly to improve on his play.

Likewise Soulkey has teachers in Light and Queen. Light used to practice and spon vs soulkey a lot in 2019-2022.

On October 10 2024 03:02 cheesehuehue wrote:


When was Soulkey's military service?
I would argue that this is Soulkey's second peak. The first one was back in 2017, but he didn't get as much attention because Flash was still active.

People seem to brush off that on in his way to win the WEGL Soulkey destroyed Flash and made him look like an average terran. That was in November 2017, when Flash had already won ASL 2, 3 and 4. Soulkey also displayed an other-worldly performance when he beat Flash in the ace match of the the ASL Team Battle Season 1, in March 2017.

In may 2017, he got knocked out the ASL3 ro4 by Flash (score was 2-3). And in October 2017, he lost in the ASL4 ro4 against hero (score 2-3). And then you have his KSL2 title in 2018, where he beat Last 4-0 and Sharp 4-1, in the semifinals and finals, respectively.

What I find fascinating is that during the ASL16 and 17 winners interviews he said that he felt that he was out of shape, but as he kept winning he gained more and more confidence. At the end of ASL17, he said that now he felt greedy, and would attempt to win 3 ASLs in a row. So I think what we are seeing right now is a highly motivated and greedy version of Soulkey that we hadn't seen before.

On October 10 2024 02:33 Liquid`Drone wrote:


Yeah I think it was just a case of that being his game plan, and then the idea was probably that a mech switch would be the best way to combat the mass ultra from the 'regular' position. but then the combined drop+valkyries did so much damage that mech - being more volatile because you're more dependent on spider mines - still had a chance of losing while bio, being more consistent but perhaps with a lower 'peak' couldn't lose.

SK was basically supply blocked for two minutes between the 12 and 14 minute mark, and he was continuously building overlords during that, too, At the 13:45 mark SK has 45/20 supply, virtually 0 units aside from the lone ultra in Light's base, Light is at 102 supply. Without a mech switch being underway at that point he'd have a completely untouchable bio army able to kill both SK's expansions.

On October 10 2024 03:46 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:


Soulkey getting eliminated by Brain in Ro16 ASL9 hurt people's perception of him.

On October 09 2024 22:27 Cricketer12 wrote:

It's weird because there's a world where after G4 Light is up 3-1, does SK have the fortitude to win 3 on the trot (with Minstrel and Monty Hall at the end)?

What's crazy is I think the answer is still yes. SK hasn't looked as untouchable in his ZvTs this season, but he's so adept at handling chaotic and scrappy gamestates it's difficult to imagine him losing long series like the ones we now find ourselves with.

On October 10 2024 23:33 prion_ wrote:
In the postgame interview Soulkey says he came up with the build for Pantheon around an hour before going to bed the previous night and decided to use it in the game after practicing it a couple times.

On October 10 2024 23:33 prion_ wrote:
In the postgame interview Soulkey says he came up with the build for Pantheon around an hour before going to bed the previous night and decided to use it in the game after practicing it a couple times.

On October 10 2024 23:33 prion_ wrote:
In the postgame interview Soulkey says he came up with the build for Pantheon around an hour before going to bed the previous night and decided to use it in the game after practicing it a couple times.

On October 11 2024 05:29 cheesehuehue wrote:
Surprisingly, Artosis had an interesting read on the 2nd game. The purpose of the mineral-only expansion was to hide the quick evo chamber, which is a sign of ultralisk rush. Soulkey even built a hydralisk den in his main to trick Light into thinking it was a Guardian rush (Light did scout the quick queen nest). In response, Light went for Valks and delayed his science facility, and thus also his +2 upgrade. Light's bio was too far behind in upgrades and would get destroyed by ultras, possibly explaining why he went for a mech switch.

On October 10 2024 03:46 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:


Soulkey getting eliminated by Brain in Ro16 ASL9 hurt people's perception of him. People also hyper focus on just ASL and forget anything outside of ASL even exists. So Soulkey got kind of neglected. For example people love down playing SnOw and SoMa yet they were the best two performing players beside Light in everything beside ASL.

On October 09 2024 16:14 RowdierBob wrote:
Poor Snow gonna get wrecked by SK. SK can beat him in the big macro games and has the unorthodox cheeses that hits Snow’s predictability hard.

On October 08 2024 21:03 Simplistik wrote:
Can someone explain to me why Light doesn't defend against mutas in his main?

On October 12 2024 06:34 Barneyk wrote:
Oh, and in game 1 where Light goes for the sunken bust, why did Soulkey go attack with his mutas instead of defending?

Did he think he had enough sunkens?
Did he miss the army movement of Light?
Did he think that light would turn back if he was aggressive enough with his mutas?

I was like screaming at him in my head to go defend with his mutas for quite some time before the attack hit. With the mutas damage output he would've held that.

It was so frustrating to me and I don't understand his decision making there, anyone more knowledgeable that can give some insight?

On October 12 2024 06:43 mtcn77 wrote:
Third option. Notice, JD got eliminated the same way, so it is not that different whoever is playing among them. The key is avoiding having to face the SK terran style.

On October 12 2024 04:56 Barneyk wrote:

Yeah, I've been wanting to see Snow win a premier tournament but I feel like he might be a bit to limited in his play-style and strategizing to be well rounded enough to go all the way.

Of course, he still can, it depends on a lot of factors but in bo7 series, I feel like he is going to run into someone who can outdo him...