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[SSL Autumn] Ro8 Day 2 - Page 6

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RowdierBob
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
Australia13536 Posts
October 09 2024 07:14 GMT
#101
Poor Snow gonna get wrecked by SK. SK can beat him in the big macro games and has the unorthodox cheeses that hits Snow’s predictability hard.
"Terrans are pretty much space-Australians" - H
gingerfluffmuffnr2
Profile Joined February 2024
107 Posts
October 09 2024 07:31 GMT
#102
Cant watch any other than Nyoken casting BW. Pure passion, entertainment is ok and deep knowledge with his partners makes the games super interesting.

Sadly the viewer numbers among english fans isnt based on merit alone, else other casters would be pretty doomed.


Seeing vultures trying to kill ultras is sad and funny at once. Light gets always hyped to heaven and never delivers
TornadoSteve
Profile Joined March 2018
1143 Posts
October 09 2024 11:50 GMT
#103
Well, tbf Light was easily the 2nd best player in the RO8 this season. Unfortunately for him, he faced the favorite of the whole tournament. I think he would have advanced against anyone else, snow included.
Nirli
Profile Joined February 2023
Bulgaria387 Posts
October 09 2024 12:05 GMT
#104
Can't wait for SK to 4:0 Snow.
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France8213 Posts
October 09 2024 12:24 GMT
#105
On October 09 2024 16:31 gingerfluffmuffnr2 wrote:
Cant watch any other than Nyoken casting BW. Pure passion, entertainment is ok and deep knowledge with his partners makes the games super interesting.

Sadly the viewer numbers among english fans isnt based on merit alone, else other casters would be pretty doomed.


Seeing vultures trying to kill ultras is sad and funny at once. Light gets always hyped to heaven and never delivers

SK was supply blocked forever. I don’t understand that transition. Wouldn’t have just continuing into SK terran won him the game easily.

Soulkey really looked like the better player yesterday.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28914 Posts
October 09 2024 13:11 GMT
#106
Yep if he keeps going sk terran he literally never loses, even with the upgrades being a bit lacking. Honestly i think sk was really close to tapping out.
Moderator
Cricketer12
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States14003 Posts
October 09 2024 13:27 GMT
#107
On October 09 2024 21:24 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 09 2024 16:31 gingerfluffmuffnr2 wrote:
Cant watch any other than Nyoken casting BW. Pure passion, entertainment is ok and deep knowledge with his partners makes the games super interesting.

Sadly the viewer numbers among english fans isnt based on merit alone, else other casters would be pretty doomed.


Seeing vultures trying to kill ultras is sad and funny at once. Light gets always hyped to heaven and never delivers

SK was supply blocked forever. I don’t understand that transition. Wouldn’t have just continuing into SK terran won him the game easily.

Soulkey really looked like the better player yesterday.

It's weird because there's a world where after G4 Light is up 3-1, does SK have the fortitude to win 3 on the trot (with Minstrel and Monty Hall at the end)?

What's crazy is I think the answer is still yes. SK hasn't looked as untouchable in his ZvTs this season, but he's so adept at handling chaotic and scrappy gamestates it's difficult to imagine him losing long series like the ones we now find ourselves with.
Engage, Zero target Engage, Engage, Kagari target Engage, Engage.
TornadoSteve
Profile Joined March 2018
1143 Posts
October 09 2024 13:37 GMT
#108
I am following the bw scene for a while now;
Besides prime Flash, i never seen a player as decisive as soulkey, ever.
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France8213 Posts
October 09 2024 15:18 GMT
#109
On October 09 2024 22:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Yep if he keeps going sk terran he literally never loses, even with the upgrades being a bit lacking. Honestly i think sk was really close to tapping out.

That’s quite tragic. I wonder if it’s a case of not evaluating the situation properly or if he got into a bit of a strategic tunnel vision, and felt that he was committed on the switch even though he really wasn’t.

I feel like the ability to drastically change plans at any point is what makes the greatest players so good. I feel like Light didn’t quite bring the version of himself in this match. He still looked like a very strong Terran, but not an all time great. Soulkey really did though.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France8213 Posts
October 09 2024 15:20 GMT
#110
On October 09 2024 22:37 TornadoSteve wrote:
I am following the bw scene for a while now;
Besides prime Flash, i never seen a player as decisive as soulkey, ever.

Prime Jaedong was insanely decisive. At the peak of his rivalry with Flash he really played like a machine. If there were any strategic or tactical opening, he would take it. He was genuinely terrifying.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
RJBTVYOUTUBE
Profile Joined December 2023
Netherlands1328 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-10-09 16:49:33
October 09 2024 16:31 GMT
#111
On October 10 2024 00:20 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 09 2024 22:37 TornadoSteve wrote:
I am following the bw scene for a while now;
Besides prime Flash, i never seen a player as decisive as soulkey, ever.

Prime Jaedong was insanely decisive. At the peak of his rivalry with Flash he really played like a machine. If there were any strategic or tactical opening, he would take it. He was genuinely terrifying.


Jaedong played in an era where the game was played at a simpler strategic level with less understanding of all possibilities and optimizations. It was easier to be decisive because the opponent had less options to choose from. Soulkey plays on a level I would argue is equal if not above flash's. The attention to detail in his flowchart decision making is unmatched. on top of that he has the best multitasking awareness/oversight over everything happening everywhere. But if anyone can/could take him it was either Light in standard game state, Rush in pure macro speed, or SnOw in pure micro control. But none of them surpass Soulkey's oversight and understanding.
JDON MY SOUL!
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France8213 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-10-09 16:48:22
October 09 2024 16:45 GMT
#112
(Wiki)
On October 10 2024 01:31 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2024 00:20 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On October 09 2024 22:37 TornadoSteve wrote:
I am following the bw scene for a while now;
Besides prime Flash, i never seen a player as decisive as soulkey, ever.

Prime Jaedong was insanely decisive. At the peak of his rivalry with Flash he really played like a machine. If there were any strategic or tactical opening, he would take it. He was genuinely terrifying.


Jaedong played in an era where the game was played at a much simpler strategic level with less understanding of all possibilities and optimizations. It was easier to be decisive because the opponent had less options to choose from. Soulkey plays on a level I would argue is equal if not above flash's. The attention to detail in his flowchart decision making is unmatched. on top of that he has the best multitasking awareness/oversight over everything happening everywhere. But if anyone can/could take him it was either Light in standard game state, Rush in pure macro speed, or SnOw in pure micro control. But none of them surpass Soulkey's oversight and understanding.

Interesting. You might be right though i think deeper knowledge both complexifies and simplifies your task. Your opponent might have many more options, but the flowchart of what works against what is also much better mapped out. It’s a bit like comparing modern chess players and folks from the 60s. Sure, current players have to know sooooo many more lines and know altogether so much more about the game, but someone like Fischer had to figure things out on the spot that today people know like the back of their hands.

I don’t want to argue that Jaedong was better than SK is, as you said those are different eras. But when it comes to killer instinct and pounding when you smell blood in the water, I think prime JD was an all time great.

Also, i think that while people have as much better knowledge of the game and arguably play at a higher level altogether, the scene was more competitive at the end of the KESPA era, when dozens and dozens of progamers practiced 8 hours a day in team houses. Jaedong was something like 70% ZvZ against insanely talented people who did nothing else than practice to get better.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
3404 Posts
October 09 2024 16:50 GMT
#113
On October 10 2024 01:31 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2024 00:20 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On October 09 2024 22:37 TornadoSteve wrote:
I am following the bw scene for a while now;
Besides prime Flash, i never seen a player as decisive as soulkey, ever.

Prime Jaedong was insanely decisive. At the peak of his rivalry with Flash he really played like a machine. If there were any strategic or tactical opening, he would take it. He was genuinely terrifying.


Jaedong played in an era where the game was played at a much simpler strategic level with less understanding of all possibilities and optimizations. It was easier to be decisive because the opponent had less options to choose from. Soulkey plays on a level I would argue is equal if not above flash's. The attention to detail in his flowchart decision making is unmatched. on top of that he has the best multitasking awareness/oversight over everything happening everywhere. But if anyone can/could take him it was either Light in standard game state, Rush in pure macro speed, or SnOw in pure micro control. But none of them surpass Soulkey's oversight and understanding.

I wonder, where was this version of Soulkey before he won his first ASL. I know he also won a KSL before but for some reason his ASL results prior to season 16 were kind of lackluster. He also wasn't known for being a beast online either. What changed and when?
RJBTVYOUTUBE
Profile Joined December 2023
Netherlands1328 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-10-09 17:06:12
October 09 2024 17:01 GMT
#114
On October 10 2024 01:45 Biff The Understudy wrote:
(Wiki)
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2024 01:31 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:
On October 10 2024 00:20 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On October 09 2024 22:37 TornadoSteve wrote:
I am following the bw scene for a while now;
Besides prime Flash, i never seen a player as decisive as soulkey, ever.

Prime Jaedong was insanely decisive. At the peak of his rivalry with Flash he really played like a machine. If there were any strategic or tactical opening, he would take it. He was genuinely terrifying.


Jaedong played in an era where the game was played at a much simpler strategic level with less understanding of all possibilities and optimizations. It was easier to be decisive because the opponent had less options to choose from. Soulkey plays on a level I would argue is equal if not above flash's. The attention to detail in his flowchart decision making is unmatched. on top of that he has the best multitasking awareness/oversight over everything happening everywhere. But if anyone can/could take him it was either Light in standard game state, Rush in pure macro speed, or SnOw in pure micro control. But none of them surpass Soulkey's oversight and understanding.

Interesting. You might be right though i think deeper knowledge both complexifies and simplifies your task. Your opponent might have many more options, but the flowchart of what works against what is also much better mapped out. It’s a bit like comparing modern chess players and folks from the 60s. Sure, current players have to know sooooo many more lines and know altogether so much more about the game, but someone like Fischer had to figure things out on the spot that today people know like the back of their hands.

I don’t want to argue that Jaedong was better than SK is, as you said those are different eras. But when it comes to killer instinct and pounding when you smell blood in the water, I think prime JD was an all time great.

Also, i think that while people have as much better knowledge of the game and arguably play at a higher level altogether, the scene was more competitive at the end of the KESPA era, when dozens and dozens of progamers practiced 8 hours a day in team houses. Jaedong was something like 70% ZvZ against insanely talented people who did nothing else than practice to get better.


Quantity of practice =/= quality of results though. ZvZ is still the most similar as it was back then, I just think people caught up with JD precisely because his play was the example to follow. Often the inventor/trendsetter is not the best at their own trend. You see it often in other sports and games. Someone figures out a new move or method and becomes the best. But others then have the option to analyze it from their own perspectives. Then they learn it, master it, and often push it to the next level because their unique perspective offers different insights on how it can be improved.

In addition players each have their own growth tempo and maximum potential. Some players grow really fast but max out their potential earlier than other players who grow slower but peak out higher. Such slow growing players have had a decade to keep growing. Jaedong is still one of the best in ZvZ, but the others are just as good at this point.


On October 10 2024 01:50 TMNT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2024 01:31 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:
On October 10 2024 00:20 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On October 09 2024 22:37 TornadoSteve wrote:
I am following the bw scene for a while now;
Besides prime Flash, i never seen a player as decisive as soulkey, ever.

Prime Jaedong was insanely decisive. At the peak of his rivalry with Flash he really played like a machine. If there were any strategic or tactical opening, he would take it. He was genuinely terrifying.


Jaedong played in an era where the game was played at a much simpler strategic level with less understanding of all possibilities and optimizations. It was easier to be decisive because the opponent had less options to choose from. Soulkey plays on a level I would argue is equal if not above flash's. The attention to detail in his flowchart decision making is unmatched. on top of that he has the best multitasking awareness/oversight over everything happening everywhere. But if anyone can/could take him it was either Light in standard game state, Rush in pure macro speed, or SnOw in pure micro control. But none of them surpass Soulkey's oversight and understanding.

I wonder, where was this version of Soulkey before he won his first ASL. I know he also won a KSL before but for some reason his ASL results prior to season 16 were kind of lackluster. He also wasn't known for being a beast online either. What changed and when?

See second part of my response to Biff.

Sometimes it also just takes a while for someone to have their breakthrough moment because something in their play is not yet in the right place. An example is Speed. I have followed him since 2019. He has always been fast, always had amazing control and multitasking, but he didn't utilize it like he does now. He joined team Ukkz late 2023 where he has both Light and Mini as co-members. He has without a doubt learned a lot from them two directly to improve on his play.

Likewise Soulkey has teachers in Light and Queen. Light used to practice and spon vs soulkey a lot in 2019-2022.
JDON MY SOUL!
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28914 Posts
October 09 2024 17:33 GMT
#115
On October 10 2024 00:18 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 09 2024 22:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Yep if he keeps going sk terran he literally never loses, even with the upgrades being a bit lacking. Honestly i think sk was really close to tapping out.

That’s quite tragic. I wonder if it’s a case of not evaluating the situation properly or if he got into a bit of a strategic tunnel vision, and felt that he was committed on the switch even though he really wasn’t.

I feel like the ability to drastically change plans at any point is what makes the greatest players so good. I feel like Light didn’t quite bring the version of himself in this match. He still looked like a very strong Terran, but not an all time great. Soulkey really did though.


Yeah I think it was just a case of that being his game plan, and then the idea was probably that a mech switch would be the best way to combat the mass ultra from the 'regular' position. but then the combined drop+valkyries did so much damage that mech - being more volatile because you're more dependent on spider mines - still had a chance of losing while bio, being more consistent but perhaps with a lower 'peak' couldn't lose.

SK was basically supply blocked for two minutes between the 12 and 14 minute mark, and he was continuously building overlords during that, too, At the 13:45 mark SK has 45/20 supply, virtually 0 units aside from the lone ultra in Light's base, Light is at 102 supply. Without a mech switch being underway at that point he'd have a completely untouchable bio army able to kill both SK's expansions.
Moderator
cheesehuehue
Profile Joined March 2024
Vatican City State90 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-10-09 19:08:42
October 09 2024 18:02 GMT
#116
On October 10 2024 02:01 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:
Sometimes it also just takes a while for someone to have their breakthrough moment because something in their play is not yet in the right place. An example is Speed. I have followed him since 2019. He has always been fast, always had amazing control and multitasking, but he didn't utilize it like he does now. He joined team Ukkz late 2023 where he has both Light and Mini as co-members. He has without a doubt learned a lot from them two directly to improve on his play.

Likewise Soulkey has teachers in Light and Queen. Light used to practice and spon vs soulkey a lot in 2019-2022.


When was Soulkey's military service?
I would argue that this is Soulkey's second peak. The first one was back in 2017, but he didn't get as much attention because Flash was still active.

People seem to brush off that on his way to win the WEGL Soulkey destroyed Flash and made him look like an average terran. That was in November 2017, when Flash had already won ASL 2, 3 and 4. Soulkey also displayed an other-worldly performance when he beat Flash in the ace match of the the ASL Team Battle Season 1, in March 2017.

In may 2017, he got knocked out the ASL3 ro4 by Flash (score was 2-3). And in October 2017, he lost in the ASL4 ro4 against hero (score 2-3). And then you have his KSL2 title in 2018, where he beat Last 4-0 and Sharp 4-1, in the semifinals and finals, respectively.

What I find fascinating is that during the ASL16 and 17 winners interviews he said that he felt that he was out of shape, but as he kept winning he gained more and more confidence. At the end of ASL17, he said that now he felt greedy, and would attempt to win 3 ASLs in a row. So I think what we are seeing right now is a highly motivated and greedy version of Soulkey that we hadn't seen before.




RJBTVYOUTUBE
Profile Joined December 2023
Netherlands1328 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-10-09 18:47:30
October 09 2024 18:46 GMT
#117
On October 10 2024 03:02 cheesehuehue wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2024 02:01 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:
Sometimes it also just takes a while for someone to have their breakthrough moment because something in their play is not yet in the right place. An example is Speed. I have followed him since 2019. He has always been fast, always had amazing control and multitasking, but he didn't utilize it like he does now. He joined team Ukkz late 2023 where he has both Light and Mini as co-members. He has without a doubt learned a lot from them two directly to improve on his play.

Likewise Soulkey has teachers in Light and Queen. Light used to practice and spon vs soulkey a lot in 2019-2022.


When was Soulkey's military service?
I would argue that this is Soulkey's second peak. The first one was back in 2017, but he didn't get as much attention because Flash was still active.

People seem to brush off that on in his way to win the WEGL Soulkey destroyed Flash and made him look like an average terran. That was in November 2017, when Flash had already won ASL 2, 3 and 4. Soulkey also displayed an other-worldly performance when he beat Flash in the ace match of the the ASL Team Battle Season 1, in March 2017.

In may 2017, he got knocked out the ASL3 ro4 by Flash (score was 2-3). And in October 2017, he lost in the ASL4 ro4 against hero (score 2-3). And then you have his KSL2 title in 2018, where he beat Last 4-0 and Sharp 4-1, in the semifinals and finals, respectively.

What I find fascinating is that during the ASL16 and 17 winners interviews he said that he felt that he was out of shape, but as he kept winning he gained more and more confidence. At the end of ASL17, he said that now he felt greedy, and would attempt to win 3 ASLs in a row. So I think what we are seeing right now is a highly motivated and greedy version of Soulkey that we hadn't seen before.


Soulkey getting eliminated by Brain in Ro16 ASL9 hurt people's perception of him. People also hyper focus on just ASL and forget anything outside of ASL even exists. So Soulkey got kind of neglected. For example people love down playing SnOw and SoMa yet they were the best two performing players beside Light in everything beside ASL.
JDON MY SOUL!
Nirli
Profile Joined February 2023
Bulgaria387 Posts
October 09 2024 18:51 GMT
#118
Again, SK has a champion's mentality. Same with Rain. Same with Flash. Their play is way more strategic than mechanical. Big picture = more tropheys.
prion_
Profile Joined September 2022
82 Posts
October 09 2024 18:54 GMT
#119
On October 10 2024 02:33 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2024 00:18 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On October 09 2024 22:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Yep if he keeps going sk terran he literally never loses, even with the upgrades being a bit lacking. Honestly i think sk was really close to tapping out.

That’s quite tragic. I wonder if it’s a case of not evaluating the situation properly or if he got into a bit of a strategic tunnel vision, and felt that he was committed on the switch even though he really wasn’t.

I feel like the ability to drastically change plans at any point is what makes the greatest players so good. I feel like Light didn’t quite bring the version of himself in this match. He still looked like a very strong Terran, but not an all time great. Soulkey really did though.


Yeah I think it was just a case of that being his game plan, and then the idea was probably that a mech switch would be the best way to combat the mass ultra from the 'regular' position. but then the combined drop+valkyries did so much damage that mech - being more volatile because you're more dependent on spider mines - still had a chance of losing while bio, being more consistent but perhaps with a lower 'peak' couldn't lose.

SK was basically supply blocked for two minutes between the 12 and 14 minute mark, and he was continuously building overlords during that, too, At the 13:45 mark SK has 45/20 supply, virtually 0 units aside from the lone ultra in Light's base, Light is at 102 supply. Without a mech switch being underway at that point he'd have a completely untouchable bio army able to kill both SK's expansions.


I'm not sure Light read the situation as fast ultra / crazy zerg, unless he inferred from the fast +1 armor, as he didn't see the cavern or the ultras until he dropped SK's main. I think he was planning on mech switching before the drop and didn't properly realize that the fast ultra build that SK was doing (off the hidden mineral-only) could counter the mech switch. Of course, if he went SK Terran Soulkey was probably dead, but if Soulkey didn't happen to have +4/1 ultras coming out the mech switch probably would have killed him as well.

Obviously it was a bad decision from Light, but I think his problem wasn't that he actively decided to switch into mech, but that he didn't decide reactively to abandon the mech switch and stay on bio.
cheesehuehue
Profile Joined March 2024
Vatican City State90 Posts
October 09 2024 21:20 GMT
#120
On October 10 2024 03:46 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2024 03:02 cheesehuehue wrote:
On October 10 2024 02:01 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:
Sometimes it also just takes a while for someone to have their breakthrough moment because something in their play is not yet in the right place. An example is Speed. I have followed him since 2019. He has always been fast, always had amazing control and multitasking, but he didn't utilize it like he does now. He joined team Ukkz late 2023 where he has both Light and Mini as co-members. He has without a doubt learned a lot from them two directly to improve on his play.

Likewise Soulkey has teachers in Light and Queen. Light used to practice and spon vs soulkey a lot in 2019-2022.


When was Soulkey's military service?
I would argue that this is Soulkey's second peak. The first one was back in 2017, but he didn't get as much attention because Flash was still active.

People seem to brush off that on in his way to win the WEGL Soulkey destroyed Flash and made him look like an average terran. That was in November 2017, when Flash had already won ASL 2, 3 and 4. Soulkey also displayed an other-worldly performance when he beat Flash in the ace match of the the ASL Team Battle Season 1, in March 2017.

In may 2017, he got knocked out the ASL3 ro4 by Flash (score was 2-3). And in October 2017, he lost in the ASL4 ro4 against hero (score 2-3). And then you have his KSL2 title in 2018, where he beat Last 4-0 and Sharp 4-1, in the semifinals and finals, respectively.

What I find fascinating is that during the ASL16 and 17 winners interviews he said that he felt that he was out of shape, but as he kept winning he gained more and more confidence. At the end of ASL17, he said that now he felt greedy, and would attempt to win 3 ASLs in a row. So I think what we are seeing right now is a highly motivated and greedy version of Soulkey that we hadn't seen before.


Soulkey getting eliminated by Brain in Ro16 ASL9 hurt people's perception of him.


Fair enough. Although in that ASL, Brain also beat Light and Mind, and was first in his ro24 group.
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