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Braavos36375 Posts
On November 09 2007 15:13 FieryBalrog wrote:
What sucks is that Savior losing reveals the increasing lack of promising new Zerg players these days. Not much new guard to replace the Savior-Chojja-GoRush generation apart from maybe Jaedong and an increasingly irrelevant GGplay.
Jaedong and Kwanro are "newish" but GGPlay is not even close, the guy has been around forever.
If I had to classify Zerg player evolution, it'd be:
Yellow (Start of BW to ~2003)
Chojja and Gorush (2002-2004)
Chojja and July (2004-2005)
July and Savior (2005-2006)
Savior (2006-2007)
?????? (2007-2008)
Yellow and Chojja both had a resurgence for one season in 2006.
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United States7488 Posts
On November 10 2007 00:15 SlickR wrote:
Savior lost because 2-4 patches back(don't remember exactly when) the terrans recieved quite a big bump in stats, like the Goliath now fires anti-air missles very very fast, Vulture got also increased attack speed, while the zerg got some reduction in stats. This is why Savior lost, this is why there hasen't been any Zerg player in any final for half a year now.
And this is why we see more and more terran players getting to the finals. If you can't beat a terran player in 10 minutes you're a gooner.
So Blizzard should immidiatly return the balance to the game back, reduce the goliath anit-air attack speed and reduce siege tank damage to 60, while bring back the movement speed of the hydralisk and attack speed of mutalisk.
The last real balance changes were 1.08, which was quite a while back. Check the patch history here.
The most recent Starleague finals (Daum OSL) was won by a Zerg player.
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On November 10 2007 00:45 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2007 15:13 FieryBalrog wrote:
What sucks is that Savior losing reveals the increasing lack of promising new Zerg players these days. Not much new guard to replace the Savior-Chojja-GoRush generation apart from maybe Jaedong and an increasingly irrelevant GGplay. Jaedong and Kwanro are "newish" but GGPlay is not even close, the guy has been around forever. If I had to classify Zerg player evolution, it'd be: Yellow (Start of BW to ~2003) Chojja and Gorush (2002-2004) Chojja and July (2004-2005) July and Savior (2005-2006) Savior (2006-2007) ?????? (2007-2008) Yellow and Chojja both had a resurgence for one season in 2006.
I think you missed H.O.T.-Forever, that guy was pioneer in hydra-lurk ZvP =)
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Braavos36375 Posts
I edited my post to make it more accurate, but yeah the stuff that early on I am not that familiar with.
Either way those guys aren't very important compared to the other names there.
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On November 10 2007 00:40 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2007 23:35 fanatacist wrote:
Everyone is bashing Mind for beating Savior... But you must realize that you are all like intrigue on IRC. This is the summary of that conversation:
intriguesomniac: MIND SUCKS
FanaBatHero: No he doesn't. It's not like Mind sucked every game and just stole wins from Savior.
intriguesomniac: But savior wasn't playing to his fullest!
FanaBatHero: That doesn't take anything away from Mind, because he performed well even if Savior for some reason did not. You can't say that Mind sucks and Savior just messed up and it would never happen again, like it was some sort of accident. Mind has skill.
intriguesomniac: Mind sucks for beating Savior
And I think that last underlined statement is what summarizes your feelings. It's not his actual skill level which sucks terribly (be honest - he's good. Even a slumping Savior would be hard to beat. Sure he has his flaws, but he's new, too!), it's the fact that everyone hates him for beating Savior and therefore he MUST suck.
As for "no-name" players beating such prestigious titles as "The Maestro," do you think no one started off at the very bottom and rose to the top? How many people really liked Savior when he just emerged as ipxzerg and started winning his games? Even Boxer must have gotten some of this hate as a "no-namer" that won tournaments way back in the day. It's a fact that "no-name" players evolve to become the Maestro, the Revolutionist, the Emperor, so on and so forth.
So everyone who posts ignorant statements like "MIND SUCKS AT SC LOL" or "i hate deez noname players T_T dey sux nd beet da best," get a reality check. The no-names of today are the leaders of tomorrow. And everyone who blindly classifies anyone who got to MSL semi-finals and beat Savior as a "one-trick pony," could be in for a rough awakening. Not every victory to a person who has lower or even non-existent stats is a fluke, not every rising unknown is a flash in the pan. Wake up.
It's okay to be upset that one of your favorite players is slumping, is losing, and losing to newer players. It's okay to resent the man that smited the king off his throne. But this is the MSL semi-finals. Don't take anything away from that player in terms of achievement or skill, because if you do, you just have your head up your ass.
This doesn't go to everyone who has posted, obviously. Just my 2 cents. I think it's assumed that when people say "Mind sucks" they mean "I'm a fan of Savior, this result sucks." It's just fans being fans. Mind is a progamer. Sure he got a little lucky getting the right matchups on his way to the semis, but I don't think anyone who is saying "Mind sucks" actually thinks he's bad at Starcraft. He's a professional gamer in Korea who made the finals of one of the two most prestigious leagues. He doesn't suck. This feeling is very understandable, we as fans have an emotional attachment with the players and thus we feel angry and disappointed when one of our favorites loses to someone who we have no clue about. I'm sure many felt the same way when Savior beat Reach for his first MSL. It's the natural flow of things. That said, Mind did not really show anything those games. Savior played badly and Mind was solid, but did not distinguish himself. He played good, sure, but I have no question that Savior a few months ago would've crushed him. This is the core of why people are mad, Savior has played so much better. Mind does suck compared to Savior at his peak.
I agree with everything in that statement.
But there ARE people that denounce Mind as just some kid who got lucky entirely, there ARE people that deny the presence of any skill in his play. Sure, riding one MU all the way to semi's is pretty lucky, but it also takes skill to win those matches. It's not like rock-paper-scissors, Mind rolls TvT = instawin. Sure, he isn't the most refined player, but he is also relatively very new. He is raw - everyone can see that. But he has skill. Just because he hasn't refined that skill to the point of being distinguishing doesn't mean that this is all there is to this new player, in my opinion.
Also the fact that he beat Savior had nothing to do with luck. Is Savior slumping? Yes. Was he better than Mind at his peak? Definitely. But it's time for even die-hard fans to face the truth - it doesn't matter if Savior was better than Mind at one point; Mind proved his strength RIGHT NOW. He has SKILL. Like I said, I understand the sentiment that Savior was better at one point and his fans want to see a comeback, a return of the champion, a Rocky IV. I understand the disliking of Mind for it. But it's no reason to DISRESPECT him for it. I voted for Savior in the Liquibet, and when I saw the results, I shared the common response of "WTF?!" But after watching the games, I feel the victory is very much justified.
Anyone who watched the games has no right to outright disrespect or denounce his SKILL. Only his victory.
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On November 10 2007 00:43 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2007 00:15 SlickR wrote:
Savior lost because 2-4 patches back(don't remember exactly when) the terrans recieved quite a big bump in stats, like the Goliath now fires anti-air missles very very fast, Vulture got also increased attack speed, while the zerg got some reduction in stats. This is why Savior lost, this is why there hasen't been any Zerg player in any final for half a year now.
And this is why we see more and more terran players getting to the finals. If you can't beat a terran player in 10 minutes you're a gooner.
So Blizzard should immidiatly return the balance to the game back, reduce the goliath anit-air attack speed and reduce siege tank damage to 60, while bring back the movement speed of the hydralisk and attack speed of mutalisk. I'm not sure if you're trolling or being serious, but you have no idea what you're talking about.
Look at the post count. Makes things obvious ):.
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On November 09 2007 08:46 DJEtterStyle wrote:
It's also interesting to note that every one of Mind's wins was off of a one-rax CC build, and his two losses were the games in which he deviated from this formula.
I noticed that as well and thought: Wouldn't this be very different if it was one of the more aggressive zergs on the opposite keyboard? In all those games I found myself thinking: "Okay, if sAviOr would just start making tons of lings now he will demolish this noob! (which he prooved not to be in the end)" Then again, he would probably not use that build against someone like July or kwanro. The fact that sAviOrs playstyle is well known and documented must have had something to do with it.
Mind might be a new rising star, but he will have to do a lot more cool stuff before I will ever start rooting for him. Right now he feels more like a smart typical player, nothing exceptional.
And I'm still wondering what went wrong in game four when he pushed all that crap in and it died. I was certain the maestro would come out on top there...
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Mind won. Won in a bo5 vs Savior who, even not having the magic anymore, is still a solid zerg player. Won 3:2 by straight play, without cheesy or funky shit. I don't really understand people who deny him skill.
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On November 10 2007 00:46 semioldguy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2007 00:15 SlickR wrote:
Savior lost because 2-4 patches back(don't remember exactly when) the terrans recieved quite a big bump in stats, like the Goliath now fires anti-air missles very very fast, Vulture got also increased attack speed, while the zerg got some reduction in stats. This is why Savior lost, this is why there hasen't been any Zerg player in any final for half a year now.
And this is why we see more and more terran players getting to the finals. If you can't beat a terran player in 10 minutes you're a gooner.
So Blizzard should immidiatly return the balance to the game back, reduce the goliath anit-air attack speed and reduce siege tank damage to 60, while bring back the movement speed of the hydralisk and attack speed of mutalisk. The last real balance changes were 1.08, which was quite a while back. Check the patch history here. The most recent Starleague finals (Daum OSL) was won by a Zerg player.
Actually blizzard don't show most of the balance changes they make. That 1.08 patch has the balance changes becose there is quite a lot of changes but in patches that only 3-4 units are changed they don't write it down. I know this becose i've played all blizzard games from warcraft 2 to warcraft 2 and i always see a change on balance in the game with every 2-3 patches but nothing saying in the patch text. So in your face!
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Braavos36375 Posts
I think it's more just Savior fans venting frustration. It's difficult to win a Bo5 vs any zerg that's Savior's level, peak or not.
That said, the 5th game was just horrific. Mind simply macros for 20 minutes and rolls over Savior, you could insert any Terran that knows how to 1-rax cc into Mind's slot and they would've won that game. The disappointment and lashing out is precisely because Savior is capable of so much more.
Again, of course Mind deserved it, he played better than Savior did. He's skilled obviously, he showed solid macro and drops and attacked at the right times. He even showed a little brilliance in the Python game if you believe the guy who started the thread about his "feint."
It's just frustrating that an "ordinary" person took down someone who used to be a ZvT god, that's all. This seems more like Mind played ordinary or good, and Savior played bad, rather than Mind playing the series of his life and Savior playing average or good.
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Wow, someone managed to be more wrong than Carlo. I'm impressed.
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United States1381 Posts
On November 10 2007 05:16 SlickR wrote:
Actually blizzard don't show most of the balance changes they make. That 1.08 patch has the balance changes becose there is quite a lot of changes but in patches that only 3-4 units are changed they don't write it down. I know this becose i've played all blizzard games from warcraft 2 to warcraft 2 and i always see a change on balance in the game with every 2-3 patches but nothing saying in the patch text. So in your face!
Oh dear me. lol?
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United States1381 Posts
On November 10 2007 00:55 fanatacist wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2007 00:40 Hot_Bid wrote:On November 09 2007 23:35 fanatacist wrote:
Everyone is bashing Mind for beating Savior... But you must realize that you are all like intrigue on IRC. This is the summary of that conversation:
intriguesomniac: MIND SUCKS
FanaBatHero: No he doesn't. It's not like Mind sucked every game and just stole wins from Savior.
intriguesomniac: But savior wasn't playing to his fullest!
FanaBatHero: That doesn't take anything away from Mind, because he performed well even if Savior for some reason did not. You can't say that Mind sucks and Savior just messed up and it would never happen again, like it was some sort of accident. Mind has skill.
intriguesomniac: Mind sucks for beating Savior
And I think that last underlined statement is what summarizes your feelings. It's not his actual skill level which sucks terribly (be honest - he's good. Even a slumping Savior would be hard to beat. Sure he has his flaws, but he's new, too!), it's the fact that everyone hates him for beating Savior and therefore he MUST suck.
As for "no-name" players beating such prestigious titles as "The Maestro," do you think no one started off at the very bottom and rose to the top? How many people really liked Savior when he just emerged as ipxzerg and started winning his games? Even Boxer must have gotten some of this hate as a "no-namer" that won tournaments way back in the day. It's a fact that "no-name" players evolve to become the Maestro, the Revolutionist, the Emperor, so on and so forth.
So everyone who posts ignorant statements like "MIND SUCKS AT SC LOL" or "i hate deez noname players T_T dey sux nd beet da best," get a reality check. The no-names of today are the leaders of tomorrow. And everyone who blindly classifies anyone who got to MSL semi-finals and beat Savior as a "one-trick pony," could be in for a rough awakening. Not every victory to a person who has lower or even non-existent stats is a fluke, not every rising unknown is a flash in the pan. Wake up.
It's okay to be upset that one of your favorite players is slumping, is losing, and losing to newer players. It's okay to resent the man that smited the king off his throne. But this is the MSL semi-finals. Don't take anything away from that player in terms of achievement or skill, because if you do, you just have your head up your ass.
This doesn't go to everyone who has posted, obviously. Just my 2 cents. I think it's assumed that when people say "Mind sucks" they mean "I'm a fan of Savior, this result sucks." It's just fans being fans. Mind is a progamer. Sure he got a little lucky getting the right matchups on his way to the semis, but I don't think anyone who is saying "Mind sucks" actually thinks he's bad at Starcraft. He's a professional gamer in Korea who made the finals of one of the two most prestigious leagues. He doesn't suck. This feeling is very understandable, we as fans have an emotional attachment with the players and thus we feel angry and disappointed when one of our favorites loses to someone who we have no clue about. I'm sure many felt the same way when Savior beat Reach for his first MSL. It's the natural flow of things. That said, Mind did not really show anything those games. Savior played badly and Mind was solid, but did not distinguish himself. He played good, sure, but I have no question that Savior a few months ago would've crushed him. This is the core of why people are mad, Savior has played so much better. Mind does suck compared to Savior at his peak. I agree with everything in that statement. But there ARE people that denounce Mind as just some kid who got lucky entirely, there ARE people that deny the presence of any skill in his play. Sure, riding one MU all the way to semi's is pretty lucky, but it also takes skill to win those matches. It's not like rock-paper-scissors, Mind rolls TvT = instawin. Sure, he isn't the most refined player, but he is also relatively very new. He is raw - everyone can see that. But he has skill. Just because he hasn't refined that skill to the point of being distinguishing doesn't mean that this is all there is to this new player, in my opinion. Also the fact that he beat Savior had nothing to do with luck. Is Savior slumping? Yes. Was he better than Mind at his peak? Definitely. But it's time for even die-hard fans to face the truth - it doesn't matter if Savior was better than Mind at one point; Mind proved his strength RIGHT NOW. He has SKILL. Like I said, I understand the sentiment that Savior was better at one point and his fans want to see a comeback, a return of the champion, a Rocky IV. I understand the disliking of Mind for it. But it's no reason to DISRESPECT him for it. I voted for Savior in the Liquibet, and when I saw the results, I shared the common response of "WTF?!" But after watching the games, I feel the victory is very much justified. Anyone who watched the games has no right to outright disrespect or denounce his SKILL. Only his victory.
Mind played well, even great. but I don't think there was anything that outstanding about his play. Savior played like a mediocre Zerg, not his usual, world-dominating supremely impenetrable self.
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Braavos36375 Posts
On November 10 2007 05:26 FieryBalrog wrote:
Mind played well, but I don't think there was anything that outstanding about his play. Savior played like a mediocre Zerg, not his usual, world-dominating supremely impenetrable self.
It's really kind of tragic.
When was the last time Savior actually played like his normal self ZvT?
Probably vs Nada, Shinhan3 OSL Finals Game 4.
I agree with whoever said that Bisu "broke" him.
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United States1381 Posts
On November 10 2007 05:29 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2007 05:26 FieryBalrog wrote:
Mind played well, but I don't think there was anything that outstanding about his play. Savior played like a mediocre Zerg, not his usual, world-dominating supremely impenetrable self. It's really kind of tragic. When was the last time Savior actually played like his normal self ZvT? Probably vs Nada, Shinhan3 OSL Finals Game 4. I agree with whoever said that Bisu "broke" him.
Its funny, after Bisu you'd expect the new Protoss gen to start taking Savior down, but its been the opposite- Stork and Free steamrolled, but every other T player taking him down each tourney- FBH, Iris and now Mind...
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On November 10 2007 05:26 FieryBalrog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2007 00:55 fanatacist wrote:On November 10 2007 00:40 Hot_Bid wrote:On November 09 2007 23:35 fanatacist wrote:
Everyone is bashing Mind for beating Savior... But you must realize that you are all like intrigue on IRC. This is the summary of that conversation:
intriguesomniac: MIND SUCKS
FanaBatHero: No he doesn't. It's not like Mind sucked every game and just stole wins from Savior.
intriguesomniac: But savior wasn't playing to his fullest!
FanaBatHero: That doesn't take anything away from Mind, because he performed well even if Savior for some reason did not. You can't say that Mind sucks and Savior just messed up and it would never happen again, like it was some sort of accident. Mind has skill.
intriguesomniac: Mind sucks for beating Savior
And I think that last underlined statement is what summarizes your feelings. It's not his actual skill level which sucks terribly (be honest - he's good. Even a slumping Savior would be hard to beat. Sure he has his flaws, but he's new, too!), it's the fact that everyone hates him for beating Savior and therefore he MUST suck.
As for "no-name" players beating such prestigious titles as "The Maestro," do you think no one started off at the very bottom and rose to the top? How many people really liked Savior when he just emerged as ipxzerg and started winning his games? Even Boxer must have gotten some of this hate as a "no-namer" that won tournaments way back in the day. It's a fact that "no-name" players evolve to become the Maestro, the Revolutionist, the Emperor, so on and so forth.
So everyone who posts ignorant statements like "MIND SUCKS AT SC LOL" or "i hate deez noname players T_T dey sux nd beet da best," get a reality check. The no-names of today are the leaders of tomorrow. And everyone who blindly classifies anyone who got to MSL semi-finals and beat Savior as a "one-trick pony," could be in for a rough awakening. Not every victory to a person who has lower or even non-existent stats is a fluke, not every rising unknown is a flash in the pan. Wake up.
It's okay to be upset that one of your favorite players is slumping, is losing, and losing to newer players. It's okay to resent the man that smited the king off his throne. But this is the MSL semi-finals. Don't take anything away from that player in terms of achievement or skill, because if you do, you just have your head up your ass.
This doesn't go to everyone who has posted, obviously. Just my 2 cents. I think it's assumed that when people say "Mind sucks" they mean "I'm a fan of Savior, this result sucks." It's just fans being fans. Mind is a progamer. Sure he got a little lucky getting the right matchups on his way to the semis, but I don't think anyone who is saying "Mind sucks" actually thinks he's bad at Starcraft. He's a professional gamer in Korea who made the finals of one of the two most prestigious leagues. He doesn't suck. This feeling is very understandable, we as fans have an emotional attachment with the players and thus we feel angry and disappointed when one of our favorites loses to someone who we have no clue about. I'm sure many felt the same way when Savior beat Reach for his first MSL. It's the natural flow of things. That said, Mind did not really show anything those games. Savior played badly and Mind was solid, but did not distinguish himself. He played good, sure, but I have no question that Savior a few months ago would've crushed him. This is the core of why people are mad, Savior has played so much better. Mind does suck compared to Savior at his peak. I agree with everything in that statement. But there ARE people that denounce Mind as just some kid who got lucky entirely, there ARE people that deny the presence of any skill in his play. Sure, riding one MU all the way to semi's is pretty lucky, but it also takes skill to win those matches. It's not like rock-paper-scissors, Mind rolls TvT = instawin. Sure, he isn't the most refined player, but he is also relatively very new. He is raw - everyone can see that. But he has skill. Just because he hasn't refined that skill to the point of being distinguishing doesn't mean that this is all there is to this new player, in my opinion. Also the fact that he beat Savior had nothing to do with luck. Is Savior slumping? Yes. Was he better than Mind at his peak? Definitely. But it's time for even die-hard fans to face the truth - it doesn't matter if Savior was better than Mind at one point; Mind proved his strength RIGHT NOW. He has SKILL. Like I said, I understand the sentiment that Savior was better at one point and his fans want to see a comeback, a return of the champion, a Rocky IV. I understand the disliking of Mind for it. But it's no reason to DISRESPECT him for it. I voted for Savior in the Liquibet, and when I saw the results, I shared the common response of "WTF?!" But after watching the games, I feel the victory is very much justified. Anyone who watched the games has no right to outright disrespect or denounce his SKILL. Only his victory. Mind played well, even great. but I don't think there was anything that outstanding about his play. Savior played like a mediocre Zerg, not his usual, world-dominating supremely impenetrable self.
True that.
Same to Hot_Bid's post.
But obviously what I said wasn't directed at you guys.
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On November 10 2007 05:33 FieryBalrog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2007 05:29 Hot_Bid wrote:On November 10 2007 05:26 FieryBalrog wrote:
Mind played well, but I don't think there was anything that outstanding about his play. Savior played like a mediocre Zerg, not his usual, world-dominating supremely impenetrable self. It's really kind of tragic. When was the last time Savior actually played like his normal self ZvT? Probably vs Nada, Shinhan3 OSL Finals Game 4. I agree with whoever said that Bisu "broke" him. Its funny, after Bisu you'd expect the new Protoss gen to start taking Savior down, but its been the opposite- Stork and Free steamrolled, but every other T player taking him down each tourney- FBH, Iris and now Mind...
I think it's very likely Savior doesn't view T as dangerous and slacked his practice against them significantly in an attempt to jack up his ZvP game against Bisu.
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On November 10 2007 06:47 KissBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2007 05:33 FieryBalrog wrote:On November 10 2007 05:29 Hot_Bid wrote:On November 10 2007 05:26 FieryBalrog wrote:
Mind played well, but I don't think there was anything that outstanding about his play. Savior played like a mediocre Zerg, not his usual, world-dominating supremely impenetrable self. It's really kind of tragic. When was the last time Savior actually played like his normal self ZvT? Probably vs Nada, Shinhan3 OSL Finals Game 4. I agree with whoever said that Bisu "broke" him. Its funny, after Bisu you'd expect the new Protoss gen to start taking Savior down, but its been the opposite- Stork and Free steamrolled, but every other T player taking him down each tourney- FBH, Iris and now Mind... I think it's very likely Savior doesn't view T as dangerous and slacked his practice against them significantly in an attempt to jack up his ZvP game against Bisu.
That's the simplest explanation.
But there's simply no proof of that and it doesn't sound like something a good player would do. Maybe it is like Savior has said, maybe it's all in the maps. Maybe he just has too many games to play. Maybe it's something else.
But to say that Bisu "broke" him is laughable. He still as strong vP as ever. He's owned every single protoss since Bisu short of 1 cheesy win nalra pulled of right after that MSL loss.
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On November 10 2007 05:33 FieryBalrog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2007 05:29 Hot_Bid wrote:On November 10 2007 05:26 FieryBalrog wrote:
Mind played well, but I don't think there was anything that outstanding about his play. Savior played like a mediocre Zerg, not his usual, world-dominating supremely impenetrable self. It's really kind of tragic. When was the last time Savior actually played like his normal self ZvT? Probably vs Nada, Shinhan3 OSL Finals Game 4. I agree with whoever said that Bisu "broke" him. Its funny, after Bisu you'd expect the new Protoss gen to start taking Savior down, but its been the opposite- Stork and Free steamrolled, but every other T player taking him down each tourney- FBH, Iris and now Mind... Iris and Hwasin both pushed him hard before he lost to Bisu.
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United States1381 Posts
On November 10 2007 11:47 Pyrthas wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2007 05:33 FieryBalrog wrote:On November 10 2007 05:29 Hot_Bid wrote:On November 10 2007 05:26 FieryBalrog wrote:
Mind played well, but I don't think there was anything that outstanding about his play. Savior played like a mediocre Zerg, not his usual, world-dominating supremely impenetrable self. It's really kind of tragic. When was the last time Savior actually played like his normal self ZvT? Probably vs Nada, Shinhan3 OSL Finals Game 4. I agree with whoever said that Bisu "broke" him. Its funny, after Bisu you'd expect the new Protoss gen to start taking Savior down, but its been the opposite- Stork and Free steamrolled, but every other T player taking him down each tourney- FBH, Iris and now Mind... Iris and Hwasin both pushed him hard before he lost to Bisu.
The difference is, now they're not only pushing him, they're breaking him. And now its players like FBH and Mind who are no world-class Terrans like Hwasin or Iris... definitely not yet, anyway.
And even when Iris pushed him, Savior looked very dangerous, an impenetrably patient Zerg. OTOH at no point in this series did he really look threatening. Some cheesy crap in game 1, and stubbornly pushing fast hive rush twice sealed the deal. Even the games he won were hardly convincing.
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EPT
