• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 15:46
CEST 21:46
KST 04:46
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters10[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call8[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End9Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 244
Community News
StarCraft open world shooter announced at BlizzCon28Weekly Cups (Aug 30-Sep 7): herO thrives amid growing schism10Official StarCraft website teases new content ahead of BlizzCon?157Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20)9Weekly Cups (August 24-30): Patches' balance mod takes over3
StarCraft 2
General
StarCraft open world shooter announced at BlizzCon Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners Weekly Cups (Aug 30-Sep 7): herO thrives amid growing schism SC4ALL: II Winner will earn a spot at HSC 30!
Tourneys
RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22 KSL Week #92 IntoTheTV X SOOP SC2 League : Weekly & Monthly 2026 GSTL Announcement Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
Mutation # 542 The Ascended Mutation # 541 Binary Choice The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 540 Dodge This
Brood War
General
Official StarCraft website teases new content ahead of BlizzCon? Broodwar Prediction Market BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Practice Partners (Official) [D] Brainstorming a balance patch for Brood war
Tourneys
[ASL22] Ro16 Group A [ASL22] Ro16 Group B Escore Tournament - Season 3 Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Replay Review Process - What do you do? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Game Theory for Starcraft
Other Games
General Games
Diablo IV Nintendo Switch Thread EVE Corporation [Maplestory Hardcore] Let's Play~!! General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Trading/Investing Thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The Creator Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Diablo Animated Series on Netflix Movie Discussion!
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
Virtual Romance, Real-Life C…
TrAiDoS
Regacy Esports:Our Goa…
regacyesports
Dreaming of BW patches (mod…
c3rberUs
LOCKPICKING NOOB
LUCKY_NOOB
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 7409 users

GomTV3 MSL Ro4 - Mind vs. Savior - Page 33

Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments
Post a Reply
Prev 1 31 32 33 34 Next All
Hot_Bid
Profile Blog Joined October 2003
Braavos36402 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-11-09 15:54:13
November 09 2007 15:45 GMT
#641
On November 09 2007 15:13 FieryBalrog wrote:
What sucks is that Savior losing reveals the increasing lack of promising new Zerg players these days. Not much new guard to replace the Savior-Chojja-GoRush generation apart from maybe Jaedong and an increasingly irrelevant GGplay.

Jaedong and Kwanro are "newish" but GGPlay is not even close, the guy has been around forever.

If I had to classify Zerg player evolution, it'd be:

Yellow (Start of BW to ~2003)
Chojja and Gorush (2002-2004)
Chojja and July (2004-2005)
July and Savior (2005-2006)
Savior (2006-2007)
?????? (2007-2008)

Yellow and Chojja both had a resurgence for one season in 2006.
@Hot_Bid on Twitter - ESPORTS life since 2010 - http://i.imgur.com/U2psw.png
semioldguy
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
United States7488 Posts
November 09 2007 15:46 GMT
#642
On November 10 2007 00:15 SlickR wrote:
Savior lost because 2-4 patches back(don't remember exactly when) the terrans recieved quite a big bump in stats, like the Goliath now fires anti-air missles very very fast, Vulture got also increased attack speed, while the zerg got some reduction in stats. This is why Savior lost, this is why there hasen't been any Zerg player in any final for half a year now.
And this is why we see more and more terran players getting to the finals. If you can't beat a terran player in 10 minutes you're a gooner.

So Blizzard should immidiatly return the balance to the game back, reduce the goliath anit-air attack speed and reduce siege tank damage to 60, while bring back the movement speed of the hydralisk and attack speed of mutalisk.




The last real balance changes were 1.08, which was quite a while back. Check the patch history here.

The most recent Starleague finals (Daum OSL) was won by a Zerg player.
Moderator
Musli
Profile Blog Joined February 2004
Poland5130 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-11-09 15:54:33
November 09 2007 15:53 GMT
#643
On November 10 2007 00:45 Hot_Bid wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 09 2007 15:13 FieryBalrog wrote:
What sucks is that Savior losing reveals the increasing lack of promising new Zerg players these days. Not much new guard to replace the Savior-Chojja-GoRush generation apart from maybe Jaedong and an increasingly irrelevant GGplay.

Jaedong and Kwanro are "newish" but GGPlay is not even close, the guy has been around forever.

If I had to classify Zerg player evolution, it'd be:

Yellow (Start of BW to ~2003)
Chojja and Gorush (2002-2004)
Chojja and July (2004-2005)
July and Savior (2005-2006)
Savior (2006-2007)
?????? (2007-2008)

Yellow and Chojja both had a resurgence for one season in 2006.

I think you missed H.O.T.-Forever, that guy was pioneer in hydra-lurk ZvP =)
Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall || mail/msn: muslii@gmail.com
Hot_Bid
Profile Blog Joined October 2003
Braavos36402 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-11-09 15:53:44
November 09 2007 15:53 GMT
#644
I edited my post to make it more accurate, but yeah the stuff that early on I am not that familiar with.

Either way those guys aren't very important compared to the other names there.
@Hot_Bid on Twitter - ESPORTS life since 2010 - http://i.imgur.com/U2psw.png
fanatacist
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
10319 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-11-09 15:58:30
November 09 2007 15:55 GMT
#645
On November 10 2007 00:40 Hot_Bid wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 09 2007 23:35 fanatacist wrote:
Everyone is bashing Mind for beating Savior... But you must realize that you are all like intrigue on IRC. This is the summary of that conversation:

intriguesomniac: MIND SUCKS
FanaBatHero: No he doesn't. It's not like Mind sucked every game and just stole wins from Savior.
intriguesomniac: But savior wasn't playing to his fullest!
FanaBatHero: That doesn't take anything away from Mind, because he performed well even if Savior for some reason did not. You can't say that Mind sucks and Savior just messed up and it would never happen again, like it was some sort of accident. Mind has skill.
intriguesomniac: Mind sucks for beating Savior

And I think that last underlined statement is what summarizes your feelings. It's not his actual skill level which sucks terribly (be honest - he's good. Even a slumping Savior would be hard to beat. Sure he has his flaws, but he's new, too!), it's the fact that everyone hates him for beating Savior and therefore he MUST suck.

As for "no-name" players beating such prestigious titles as "The Maestro," do you think no one started off at the very bottom and rose to the top? How many people really liked Savior when he just emerged as ipxzerg and started winning his games? Even Boxer must have gotten some of this hate as a "no-namer" that won tournaments way back in the day. It's a fact that "no-name" players evolve to become the Maestro, the Revolutionist, the Emperor, so on and so forth.

So everyone who posts ignorant statements like "MIND SUCKS AT SC LOL" or "i hate deez noname players T_T dey sux nd beet da best," get a reality check. The no-names of today are the leaders of tomorrow. And everyone who blindly classifies anyone who got to MSL semi-finals and beat Savior as a "one-trick pony," could be in for a rough awakening. Not every victory to a person who has lower or even non-existent stats is a fluke, not every rising unknown is a flash in the pan. Wake up.

It's okay to be upset that one of your favorite players is slumping, is losing, and losing to newer players. It's okay to resent the man that smited the king off his throne. But this is the MSL semi-finals. Don't take anything away from that player in terms of achievement or skill, because if you do, you just have your head up your ass.

This doesn't go to everyone who has posted, obviously. Just my 2 cents.

I think it's assumed that when people say "Mind sucks" they mean "I'm a fan of Savior, this result sucks." It's just fans being fans. Mind is a progamer. Sure he got a little lucky getting the right matchups on his way to the semis, but I don't think anyone who is saying "Mind sucks" actually thinks he's bad at Starcraft. He's a professional gamer in Korea who made the finals of one of the two most prestigious leagues. He doesn't suck.

This feeling is very understandable, we as fans have an emotional attachment with the players and thus we feel angry and disappointed when one of our favorites loses to someone who we have no clue about. I'm sure many felt the same way when Savior beat Reach for his first MSL. It's the natural flow of things.

That said, Mind did not really show anything those games. Savior played badly and Mind was solid, but did not distinguish himself. He played good, sure, but I have no question that Savior a few months ago would've crushed him. This is the core of why people are mad, Savior has played so much better. Mind does suck compared to Savior at his peak.

I agree with everything in that statement.

But there ARE people that denounce Mind as just some kid who got lucky entirely, there ARE people that deny the presence of any skill in his play. Sure, riding one MU all the way to semi's is pretty lucky, but it also takes skill to win those matches. It's not like rock-paper-scissors, Mind rolls TvT = instawin. Sure, he isn't the most refined player, but he is also relatively very new. He is raw - everyone can see that. But he has skill. Just because he hasn't refined that skill to the point of being distinguishing doesn't mean that this is all there is to this new player, in my opinion.

Also the fact that he beat Savior had nothing to do with luck. Is Savior slumping? Yes. Was he better than Mind at his peak? Definitely. But it's time for even die-hard fans to face the truth - it doesn't matter if Savior was better than Mind at one point; Mind proved his strength RIGHT NOW. He has SKILL. Like I said, I understand the sentiment that Savior was better at one point and his fans want to see a comeback, a return of the champion, a Rocky IV. I understand the disliking of Mind for it. But it's no reason to DISRESPECT him for it. I voted for Savior in the Liquibet, and when I saw the results, I shared the common response of "WTF?!" But after watching the games, I feel the victory is very much justified.

Anyone who watched the games has no right to outright disrespect or denounce his SKILL. Only his victory.
Peace~
fanatacist
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
10319 Posts
November 09 2007 15:57 GMT
#646
On November 10 2007 00:43 Hot_Bid wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2007 00:15 SlickR wrote:
Savior lost because 2-4 patches back(don't remember exactly when) the terrans recieved quite a big bump in stats, like the Goliath now fires anti-air missles very very fast, Vulture got also increased attack speed, while the zerg got some reduction in stats. This is why Savior lost, this is why there hasen't been any Zerg player in any final for half a year now.
And this is why we see more and more terran players getting to the finals. If you can't beat a terran player in 10 minutes you're a gooner.

So Blizzard should immidiatly return the balance to the game back, reduce the goliath anit-air attack speed and reduce siege tank damage to 60, while bring back the movement speed of the hydralisk and attack speed of mutalisk.

I'm not sure if you're trolling or being serious, but you have no idea what you're talking about.

Look at the post count. Makes things obvious ):.
Peace~
Barbarne
Profile Joined August 2007
Sweden458 Posts
November 09 2007 19:40 GMT
#647
On November 09 2007 08:46 DJEtterStyle wrote:

It's also interesting to note that every one of Mind's wins was off of a one-rax CC build, and his two losses were the games in which he deviated from this formula.


I noticed that as well and thought: Wouldn't this be very different if it was one of the more aggressive zergs on the opposite keyboard? In all those games I found myself thinking: "Okay, if sAviOr would just start making tons of lings now he will demolish this noob! (which he prooved not to be in the end)" Then again, he would probably not use that build against someone like July or kwanro. The fact that sAviOrs playstyle is well known and documented must have had something to do with it.

Mind might be a new rising star, but he will have to do a lot more cool stuff before I will ever start rooting for him. Right now he feels more like a smart typical player, nothing exceptional.

And I'm still wondering what went wrong in game four when he pushed all that crap in and it died. I was certain the maestro would come out on top there...
BluzMan
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
Russian Federation4235 Posts
November 09 2007 19:42 GMT
#648
Mind won. Won in a bo5 vs Savior who, even not having the magic anymore, is still a solid zerg player. Won 3:2 by straight play, without cheesy or funky shit. I don't really understand people who deny him skill.
You want 20 good men, but you need a bad pussy.
SlickR
Profile Joined November 2007
Macedonia2 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-11-09 20:18:59
November 09 2007 20:16 GMT
#649
On November 10 2007 00:46 semioldguy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2007 00:15 SlickR wrote:
Savior lost because 2-4 patches back(don't remember exactly when) the terrans recieved quite a big bump in stats, like the Goliath now fires anti-air missles very very fast, Vulture got also increased attack speed, while the zerg got some reduction in stats. This is why Savior lost, this is why there hasen't been any Zerg player in any final for half a year now.
And this is why we see more and more terran players getting to the finals. If you can't beat a terran player in 10 minutes you're a gooner.

So Blizzard should immidiatly return the balance to the game back, reduce the goliath anit-air attack speed and reduce siege tank damage to 60, while bring back the movement speed of the hydralisk and attack speed of mutalisk.




The last real balance changes were 1.08, which was quite a while back. Check the patch history here.

The most recent Starleague finals (Daum OSL) was won by a Zerg player.

Actually blizzard don't show most of the balance changes they make. That 1.08 patch has the balance changes becose there is quite a lot of changes but in patches that only 3-4 units are changed they don't write it down. I know this becose i've played all blizzard games from warcraft 2 to warcraft 2 and i always see a change on balance in the game with every 2-3 patches but nothing saying in the patch text. So in your face!
Hot_Bid
Profile Blog Joined October 2003
Braavos36402 Posts
November 09 2007 20:16 GMT
#650
I think it's more just Savior fans venting frustration. It's difficult to win a Bo5 vs any zerg that's Savior's level, peak or not.

That said, the 5th game was just horrific. Mind simply macros for 20 minutes and rolls over Savior, you could insert any Terran that knows how to 1-rax cc into Mind's slot and they would've won that game. The disappointment and lashing out is precisely because Savior is capable of so much more.

Again, of course Mind deserved it, he played better than Savior did. He's skilled obviously, he showed solid macro and drops and attacked at the right times. He even showed a little brilliance in the Python game if you believe the guy who started the thread about his "feint."

It's just frustrating that an "ordinary" person took down someone who used to be a ZvT god, that's all. This seems more like Mind played ordinary or good, and Savior played bad, rather than Mind playing the series of his life and Savior playing average or good.
@Hot_Bid on Twitter - ESPORTS life since 2010 - http://i.imgur.com/U2psw.png
SonuvBob
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Aiur21552 Posts
November 09 2007 20:24 GMT
#651
Wow, someone managed to be more wrong than Carlo. I'm impressed.
Administrator
FieryBalrog
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States1381 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-11-09 20:25:30
November 09 2007 20:25 GMT
#652
On November 10 2007 05:16 SlickR wrote:

Actually blizzard don't show most of the balance changes they make. That 1.08 patch has the balance changes becose there is quite a lot of changes but in patches that only 3-4 units are changed they don't write it down. I know this becose i've played all blizzard games from warcraft 2 to warcraft 2 and i always see a change on balance in the game with every 2-3 patches but nothing saying in the patch text. So in your face!


Oh dear me. lol?
I will eat you alive
FieryBalrog
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States1381 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-11-09 20:28:29
November 09 2007 20:26 GMT
#653
On November 10 2007 00:55 fanatacist wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2007 00:40 Hot_Bid wrote:
On November 09 2007 23:35 fanatacist wrote:
Everyone is bashing Mind for beating Savior... But you must realize that you are all like intrigue on IRC. This is the summary of that conversation:

intriguesomniac: MIND SUCKS
FanaBatHero: No he doesn't. It's not like Mind sucked every game and just stole wins from Savior.
intriguesomniac: But savior wasn't playing to his fullest!
FanaBatHero: That doesn't take anything away from Mind, because he performed well even if Savior for some reason did not. You can't say that Mind sucks and Savior just messed up and it would never happen again, like it was some sort of accident. Mind has skill.
intriguesomniac: Mind sucks for beating Savior

And I think that last underlined statement is what summarizes your feelings. It's not his actual skill level which sucks terribly (be honest - he's good. Even a slumping Savior would be hard to beat. Sure he has his flaws, but he's new, too!), it's the fact that everyone hates him for beating Savior and therefore he MUST suck.

As for "no-name" players beating such prestigious titles as "The Maestro," do you think no one started off at the very bottom and rose to the top? How many people really liked Savior when he just emerged as ipxzerg and started winning his games? Even Boxer must have gotten some of this hate as a "no-namer" that won tournaments way back in the day. It's a fact that "no-name" players evolve to become the Maestro, the Revolutionist, the Emperor, so on and so forth.

So everyone who posts ignorant statements like "MIND SUCKS AT SC LOL" or "i hate deez noname players T_T dey sux nd beet da best," get a reality check. The no-names of today are the leaders of tomorrow. And everyone who blindly classifies anyone who got to MSL semi-finals and beat Savior as a "one-trick pony," could be in for a rough awakening. Not every victory to a person who has lower or even non-existent stats is a fluke, not every rising unknown is a flash in the pan. Wake up.

It's okay to be upset that one of your favorite players is slumping, is losing, and losing to newer players. It's okay to resent the man that smited the king off his throne. But this is the MSL semi-finals. Don't take anything away from that player in terms of achievement or skill, because if you do, you just have your head up your ass.

This doesn't go to everyone who has posted, obviously. Just my 2 cents.

I think it's assumed that when people say "Mind sucks" they mean "I'm a fan of Savior, this result sucks." It's just fans being fans. Mind is a progamer. Sure he got a little lucky getting the right matchups on his way to the semis, but I don't think anyone who is saying "Mind sucks" actually thinks he's bad at Starcraft. He's a professional gamer in Korea who made the finals of one of the two most prestigious leagues. He doesn't suck.

This feeling is very understandable, we as fans have an emotional attachment with the players and thus we feel angry and disappointed when one of our favorites loses to someone who we have no clue about. I'm sure many felt the same way when Savior beat Reach for his first MSL. It's the natural flow of things.

That said, Mind did not really show anything those games. Savior played badly and Mind was solid, but did not distinguish himself. He played good, sure, but I have no question that Savior a few months ago would've crushed him. This is the core of why people are mad, Savior has played so much better. Mind does suck compared to Savior at his peak.

I agree with everything in that statement.

But there ARE people that denounce Mind as just some kid who got lucky entirely, there ARE people that deny the presence of any skill in his play. Sure, riding one MU all the way to semi's is pretty lucky, but it also takes skill to win those matches. It's not like rock-paper-scissors, Mind rolls TvT = instawin. Sure, he isn't the most refined player, but he is also relatively very new. He is raw - everyone can see that. But he has skill. Just because he hasn't refined that skill to the point of being distinguishing doesn't mean that this is all there is to this new player, in my opinion.

Also the fact that he beat Savior had nothing to do with luck. Is Savior slumping? Yes. Was he better than Mind at his peak? Definitely. But it's time for even die-hard fans to face the truth - it doesn't matter if Savior was better than Mind at one point; Mind proved his strength RIGHT NOW. He has SKILL. Like I said, I understand the sentiment that Savior was better at one point and his fans want to see a comeback, a return of the champion, a Rocky IV. I understand the disliking of Mind for it. But it's no reason to DISRESPECT him for it. I voted for Savior in the Liquibet, and when I saw the results, I shared the common response of "WTF?!" But after watching the games, I feel the victory is very much justified.

Anyone who watched the games has no right to outright disrespect or denounce his SKILL. Only his victory.


Mind played well, even great. but I don't think there was anything that outstanding about his play. Savior played like a mediocre Zerg, not his usual, world-dominating supremely impenetrable self.
I will eat you alive
Hot_Bid
Profile Blog Joined October 2003
Braavos36402 Posts
November 09 2007 20:29 GMT
#654
On November 10 2007 05:26 FieryBalrog wrote:
Mind played well, but I don't think there was anything that outstanding about his play. Savior played like a mediocre Zerg, not his usual, world-dominating supremely impenetrable self.

It's really kind of tragic.

When was the last time Savior actually played like his normal self ZvT?

Probably vs Nada, Shinhan3 OSL Finals Game 4.

I agree with whoever said that Bisu "broke" him.
@Hot_Bid on Twitter - ESPORTS life since 2010 - http://i.imgur.com/U2psw.png
FieryBalrog
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States1381 Posts
November 09 2007 20:33 GMT
#655
On November 10 2007 05:29 Hot_Bid wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2007 05:26 FieryBalrog wrote:
Mind played well, but I don't think there was anything that outstanding about his play. Savior played like a mediocre Zerg, not his usual, world-dominating supremely impenetrable self.

It's really kind of tragic.

When was the last time Savior actually played like his normal self ZvT?

Probably vs Nada, Shinhan3 OSL Finals Game 4.

I agree with whoever said that Bisu "broke" him.


Its funny, after Bisu you'd expect the new Protoss gen to start taking Savior down, but its been the opposite- Stork and Free steamrolled, but every other T player taking him down each tourney- FBH, Iris and now Mind...
I will eat you alive
fanatacist
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
10319 Posts
November 09 2007 21:30 GMT
#656
On November 10 2007 05:26 FieryBalrog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2007 00:55 fanatacist wrote:
On November 10 2007 00:40 Hot_Bid wrote:
On November 09 2007 23:35 fanatacist wrote:
Everyone is bashing Mind for beating Savior... But you must realize that you are all like intrigue on IRC. This is the summary of that conversation:

intriguesomniac: MIND SUCKS
FanaBatHero: No he doesn't. It's not like Mind sucked every game and just stole wins from Savior.
intriguesomniac: But savior wasn't playing to his fullest!
FanaBatHero: That doesn't take anything away from Mind, because he performed well even if Savior for some reason did not. You can't say that Mind sucks and Savior just messed up and it would never happen again, like it was some sort of accident. Mind has skill.
intriguesomniac: Mind sucks for beating Savior

And I think that last underlined statement is what summarizes your feelings. It's not his actual skill level which sucks terribly (be honest - he's good. Even a slumping Savior would be hard to beat. Sure he has his flaws, but he's new, too!), it's the fact that everyone hates him for beating Savior and therefore he MUST suck.

As for "no-name" players beating such prestigious titles as "The Maestro," do you think no one started off at the very bottom and rose to the top? How many people really liked Savior when he just emerged as ipxzerg and started winning his games? Even Boxer must have gotten some of this hate as a "no-namer" that won tournaments way back in the day. It's a fact that "no-name" players evolve to become the Maestro, the Revolutionist, the Emperor, so on and so forth.

So everyone who posts ignorant statements like "MIND SUCKS AT SC LOL" or "i hate deez noname players T_T dey sux nd beet da best," get a reality check. The no-names of today are the leaders of tomorrow. And everyone who blindly classifies anyone who got to MSL semi-finals and beat Savior as a "one-trick pony," could be in for a rough awakening. Not every victory to a person who has lower or even non-existent stats is a fluke, not every rising unknown is a flash in the pan. Wake up.

It's okay to be upset that one of your favorite players is slumping, is losing, and losing to newer players. It's okay to resent the man that smited the king off his throne. But this is the MSL semi-finals. Don't take anything away from that player in terms of achievement or skill, because if you do, you just have your head up your ass.

This doesn't go to everyone who has posted, obviously. Just my 2 cents.

I think it's assumed that when people say "Mind sucks" they mean "I'm a fan of Savior, this result sucks." It's just fans being fans. Mind is a progamer. Sure he got a little lucky getting the right matchups on his way to the semis, but I don't think anyone who is saying "Mind sucks" actually thinks he's bad at Starcraft. He's a professional gamer in Korea who made the finals of one of the two most prestigious leagues. He doesn't suck.

This feeling is very understandable, we as fans have an emotional attachment with the players and thus we feel angry and disappointed when one of our favorites loses to someone who we have no clue about. I'm sure many felt the same way when Savior beat Reach for his first MSL. It's the natural flow of things.

That said, Mind did not really show anything those games. Savior played badly and Mind was solid, but did not distinguish himself. He played good, sure, but I have no question that Savior a few months ago would've crushed him. This is the core of why people are mad, Savior has played so much better. Mind does suck compared to Savior at his peak.

I agree with everything in that statement.

But there ARE people that denounce Mind as just some kid who got lucky entirely, there ARE people that deny the presence of any skill in his play. Sure, riding one MU all the way to semi's is pretty lucky, but it also takes skill to win those matches. It's not like rock-paper-scissors, Mind rolls TvT = instawin. Sure, he isn't the most refined player, but he is also relatively very new. He is raw - everyone can see that. But he has skill. Just because he hasn't refined that skill to the point of being distinguishing doesn't mean that this is all there is to this new player, in my opinion.

Also the fact that he beat Savior had nothing to do with luck. Is Savior slumping? Yes. Was he better than Mind at his peak? Definitely. But it's time for even die-hard fans to face the truth - it doesn't matter if Savior was better than Mind at one point; Mind proved his strength RIGHT NOW. He has SKILL. Like I said, I understand the sentiment that Savior was better at one point and his fans want to see a comeback, a return of the champion, a Rocky IV. I understand the disliking of Mind for it. But it's no reason to DISRESPECT him for it. I voted for Savior in the Liquibet, and when I saw the results, I shared the common response of "WTF?!" But after watching the games, I feel the victory is very much justified.

Anyone who watched the games has no right to outright disrespect or denounce his SKILL. Only his victory.


Mind played well, even great. but I don't think there was anything that outstanding about his play. Savior played like a mediocre Zerg, not his usual, world-dominating supremely impenetrable self.


True that.

Same to Hot_Bid's post.

But obviously what I said wasn't directed at you guys.
Peace~
KissBlade
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
United States5718 Posts
November 09 2007 21:47 GMT
#657
On November 10 2007 05:33 FieryBalrog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2007 05:29 Hot_Bid wrote:
On November 10 2007 05:26 FieryBalrog wrote:
Mind played well, but I don't think there was anything that outstanding about his play. Savior played like a mediocre Zerg, not his usual, world-dominating supremely impenetrable self.

It's really kind of tragic.

When was the last time Savior actually played like his normal self ZvT?

Probably vs Nada, Shinhan3 OSL Finals Game 4.

I agree with whoever said that Bisu "broke" him.


Its funny, after Bisu you'd expect the new Protoss gen to start taking Savior down, but its been the opposite- Stork and Free steamrolled, but every other T player taking him down each tourney- FBH, Iris and now Mind...


I think it's very likely Savior doesn't view T as dangerous and slacked his practice against them significantly in an attempt to jack up his ZvP game against Bisu.
.dragoon
Profile Joined May 2007
United States749 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-11-10 00:05:58
November 10 2007 00:03 GMT
#658
On November 10 2007 06:47 KissBlade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2007 05:33 FieryBalrog wrote:
On November 10 2007 05:29 Hot_Bid wrote:
On November 10 2007 05:26 FieryBalrog wrote:
Mind played well, but I don't think there was anything that outstanding about his play. Savior played like a mediocre Zerg, not his usual, world-dominating supremely impenetrable self.

It's really kind of tragic.

When was the last time Savior actually played like his normal self ZvT?

Probably vs Nada, Shinhan3 OSL Finals Game 4.

I agree with whoever said that Bisu "broke" him.


Its funny, after Bisu you'd expect the new Protoss gen to start taking Savior down, but its been the opposite- Stork and Free steamrolled, but every other T player taking him down each tourney- FBH, Iris and now Mind...


I think it's very likely Savior doesn't view T as dangerous and slacked his practice against them significantly in an attempt to jack up his ZvP game against Bisu.

That's the simplest explanation.

But there's simply no proof of that and it doesn't sound like something a good player would do. Maybe it is like Savior has said, maybe it's all in the maps. Maybe he just has too many games to play. Maybe it's something else.

But to say that Bisu "broke" him is laughable. He still as strong vP as ever. He's owned every single protoss since Bisu short of 1 cheesy win nalra pulled of right after that MSL loss.

If you can, then do. If I can, I will.
Pyrthas
Profile Joined March 2007
United States3196 Posts
November 10 2007 02:47 GMT
#659
On November 10 2007 05:33 FieryBalrog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2007 05:29 Hot_Bid wrote:
On November 10 2007 05:26 FieryBalrog wrote:
Mind played well, but I don't think there was anything that outstanding about his play. Savior played like a mediocre Zerg, not his usual, world-dominating supremely impenetrable self.

It's really kind of tragic.

When was the last time Savior actually played like his normal self ZvT?

Probably vs Nada, Shinhan3 OSL Finals Game 4.

I agree with whoever said that Bisu "broke" him.


Its funny, after Bisu you'd expect the new Protoss gen to start taking Savior down, but its been the opposite- Stork and Free steamrolled, but every other T player taking him down each tourney- FBH, Iris and now Mind...
Iris and Hwasin both pushed him hard before he lost to Bisu.
FieryBalrog
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States1381 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-11-10 03:23:40
November 10 2007 03:19 GMT
#660
On November 10 2007 11:47 Pyrthas wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2007 05:33 FieryBalrog wrote:
On November 10 2007 05:29 Hot_Bid wrote:
On November 10 2007 05:26 FieryBalrog wrote:
Mind played well, but I don't think there was anything that outstanding about his play. Savior played like a mediocre Zerg, not his usual, world-dominating supremely impenetrable self.

It's really kind of tragic.

When was the last time Savior actually played like his normal self ZvT?

Probably vs Nada, Shinhan3 OSL Finals Game 4.

I agree with whoever said that Bisu "broke" him.


Its funny, after Bisu you'd expect the new Protoss gen to start taking Savior down, but its been the opposite- Stork and Free steamrolled, but every other T player taking him down each tourney- FBH, Iris and now Mind...
Iris and Hwasin both pushed him hard before he lost to Bisu.


The difference is, now they're not only pushing him, they're breaking him. And now its players like FBH and Mind who are no world-class Terrans like Hwasin or Iris... definitely not yet, anyway.

And even when Iris pushed him, Savior looked very dangerous, an impenetrably patient Zerg. OTOH at no point in this series did he really look threatening. Some cheesy crap in game 1, and stubbornly pushing fast hive rush twice sealed the deal. Even the games he won were hardly convincing.
I will eat you alive
Prev 1 31 32 33 34 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
AI Arena Tournament
17:00
Swiss - Round 1
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 837
Tasteless 517
JimRising 516
CosmosSc2 63
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 19995
Calm 2909
Artosis 697
Shuttle 566
Dewaltoss 108
HiyA 83
Mong 46
Hm[arnc] 18
Noble 6
Dota 2
qojqva2962
420jenkins335
monkeys_forever129
canceldota41
Counter-Strike
fl0m3249
Fnx 743
Super Smash Bros
Chillindude18
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu1292
Trikslyr101
Other Games
Grubby7387
summit1g4536
B2W.Neo1414
Mlord436
XaKoH 166
QueenE43
Organizations
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm3566
Other Games
EGCTV1555
StarCraft 2
StarCraft1503
StarCraft: Brood War
Afreeca ASL 568
Other Games
BasetradeTV225
angryscii39
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 98
• EnkiAlexander 55
• printf 36
• Adnapsc2 7
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• Airneanach24
• FirePhoenix12
• Pr0nogo 6
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Other Games
• imaqtpie832
• Shiphtur173
Upcoming Events
OSC
44m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
14h 14m
WardiTV Invitational
15h 14m
ByuN vs Percival
Cure vs Classic
Shopify Rebellion Sundays
19h 14m
Spirit vs Mixu
Clem vs TBD
RSL Revival
20h 14m
Serral vs Rogue
BlizzCon
22h 44m
IdrA vs MC
Replay Cast
1d 4h
Afreeca Starleague
1d 14h
Light vs JyJ
Soulkey vs hero
WardiTV Weekly
1d 15h
Monday Night Weeklies
1d 20h
[ Show More ]
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
Snow vs Shinee
Shine vs EffOrt
GSL
2 days
PiGosaur Cup
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
Kung Fu Cup
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
KCM Race Survival
4 days
IntoTheTV X SOOP
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
IntoTheTV X SOOP
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
GSL
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #5 - TRS
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5
RSL Revival: Season 6
Calamity Invitational
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026

Upcoming

Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Acropolis #5 - GSA
Acropolis #5 - GSB
Acropolis #5 - GSC
SC4ALL II: Brood War
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.