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United States7488 Posts
Mind has gotten this far on the back of one match-up: TvT. This is his first chance in the tournament to show how good his TvZ can be, and he couldn't have a more difficult opponent to do it against. Mind is the sole remaining player who climbed up to this point all the way down from the offline qualifiers, but even Rocky doesn't get to win the whole thing his first time out.
This man needs no introduction, but he gets one anyway. Savior is a stone cold killer and he eats Terrans like Mind for breakfast. However, Savior hasn't made a finals appearance since he was demolished by Bisu. A win here could give him the chance at revenge. Also with a win, Savior has a chance to become the first player to have four MSL championship titles.
No matter how you look at it, Mind is the definite underdog here. Savior has been here many times before and will likely be here again in the future. Mind can cling to at least one advantage: Savior has little idea of what to expect from Mind's TvZ as there is not yet much history of it. Mind, on the other hand, has plenty of Savior's ZvT history to learn from. Will that be enough of an advantage for Mind or will he still crumble to Savior's superior power?
Results:
+ Show Spoiler +Mind > Savior
Mind < Savior
Mind < Savior
Mind > Savior
Mind > Savior
Mind wins 3-2
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u gotta skate8152 Posts
OMG, imagine Mind pulling a fbh!
won't happen fo sho. :p
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When did we stop posting dates in the this match is going to happen soon threads? Mind's tvt has been awesome but i doubt his ability to prove ranged over all matchups.
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sAviOr
I want Him vs. Bisu in finals.
That would be just epic.
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On November 08 2007 08:29 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:Maestro has this, without a doubt + Show Spoiler +
I don't know why but i think the exact same way.
I just want to see the first match and see savior > mind 
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The MSL Finals without Savior will be so incredibly lame, no matter how you cut it.
3-1 Savior.
+ Show Spoiler +Savior can enjoy Storchen's invisible sammich after he kicks Mind's pasty rump.
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United States7488 Posts
On November 08 2007 08:37 zobz wrote:
When did we stop posting dates in the this match is going to happen soon threads? Mind's tvt has been awesome but i doubt his ability to prove ranged over all matchups.
I just didn't think it was necessary as the live report threads always appear on the day of the match and we have the handy calendar to always let us know what's going on.
If you're looking at a long since past live report thread for whatever reason there is always the date of the OP to look at for reference.
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for the integrity of a startleague, Mind cannot make it to the finals
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Savior 3-0.
At worst 3-1 dropping the game on Zodiac. But 3-0 still is my bet.
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Netherlands19135 Posts
Savior saves, 3-1.
The man delivers, what can I say.
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Mind will win. 
Just watch.
[edit] I voted Mind as well. 
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On November 08 2007 09:17 zer0das wrote:Mind for Royal Road, you heard it here first. + Show Spoiler +
Psst... Royal road is for OSL.
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hope savior takes this one
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Savior 3-0
Mind has no chance
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CA10828 Posts
On November 08 2007 09:17 zer0das wrote:Mind for Royal Road, you heard it here first. + Show Spoiler + there is no such thing as a "royal road" for MSL
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United States1654 Posts
Wow, finally a map imbalanced in favor of Z (Blue Storm).
This should make Savior's life much easier.
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mind for the royal road.
and a fantastic 3-0 against savior.
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United States20661 Posts
sAviOr...
I just have that bad FBH feeling.
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Who cares about Mind, Savior 3>0 Bisu!
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So sad ... everybody thinks Savior should win (I do too) but you can't help but doubt right now. Says a lot about the Maestro these days.
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It is an honor to get owned by Savior, Mind should feel proud
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United States7488 Posts
On November 08 2007 10:04 hwasingodlysense wrote:
mind for the royal road.
and a fantastic 3-0 against savior.
You should look two posts above yours
... and 3-0 in favor of Mind is totally not going to happen. If it does happen tonight, I'll post a video of me eating my own sock.
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United States10774 Posts
Savior 3-0
3-1 with bad luck.
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Savior's zvt has looked a bit shaky lately. I think it will be tough but he won't drop this one.
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
On November 08 2007 08:46 triangle wrote:
sAviOr
I want Him vs. Bisu in finals.
That would be just epic.
I am afraid Boxer would have little chance against Bisu in his current form.
+ Show Spoiler +That was a joke for whom it wasn't obvious. Boxer would rape Bisu 3-0 easy.
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is awesome32274 Posts
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On November 08 2007 10:26 semioldguy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2007 10:04 hwasingodlysense wrote:
mind for the royal road.
and a fantastic 3-0 against savior. You should look two posts above yours ... and 3-0 in favor of Mind is totally not going to happen. If it does happen tonight, I'll post a video of me eating my own sock.
I want Mind to win now just to see this video, but it's not gonna happen =(
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would be an upset if Savior loses in a bo5 indeed.
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If Mind beats Savior he'll be revered as the best player from Wemade Fox. That would be a sad day indeed for NaDa fans.
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I'm sorry if this is a noob question, but how does one qualify from the offline qualifiers? What does that mean exactly?
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GO BOXER!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111111
oh shit, wrong thread.
go savior. i have little doubt he would PWNTZISIR0S.
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CA10828 Posts
On November 08 2007 11:05 Gyabo wrote:
If Mind beats Savior he'll be revered as the best player from Wemade Fox. That would be a sad day indeed for NaDa fans. currently, maybe so. but nada has already beaten savior in a BO5 (shinhan masters)
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Mind will win: watch, and prepare to be amazed
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
On November 08 2007 11:05 Gyabo wrote:
If Mind beats Savior he'll be revered as the best CURRENTplayer from Wemade Fox. That would be a sad day indeed for NaDa fans.
Fixed. There are two Terrans on Fox whom he will never surpass in accomplishments.
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when does this start again? (prefer Pacific time)
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18:30 korean, so 1:30 in the morning
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2 : 30 am for PST not 4 : 30
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o i think its 1:30 since we had fallback for daylight savings
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i duno mind gives me the feeling of having half fluke half tripped his way up the brackets and now is where he stops.
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c'mon, i want bisu savior msl final!
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Mind better win omg I want to see a TvT MSL final!!!1!!eleven!!!!
+ Show Spoiler +
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savior 3-0 or 3-1 
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So incredibly pumped for this. Mainly because I will be so incredibly disappointed if Mind wins. Mind is a very skilled player, but savior advancing makes this starleague infinitely more interesting as others have said before. I also have a lot of faith in Savior this time around. The maps as a whole are MUCH better for Z. I expect savior to dominate.
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cuban gangster will not falter to mind
3:0 most likely, maybe 3:1 with bad luck
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
On November 08 2007 10:08 Last Romantic wrote:
sAviOr...
I just have that bad FBH feeling.
When Savior and FBH fought, FBH had a pretty nice TvZ and he still does. Mind's on the other hand is... average. I just watched his 3 games. He has decent macro, but his micro is not very good imo.
If FBH barely got through against Savior, Mind should loose, most likely 3-0 or 3-1.
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United States7166 Posts
argh FBH was so annoying in that one game on python where he turtled till savior ran out of resources
mind better not try the same thing
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I can't believe there actually is some people rooting for Mind
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I think some people lack a sense of humor. 
(Although I didn't know that Royal Road only referred to OSL... not sure that makes much sense anymore, but what do I know).
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Savior 3-1 or 3-0, i want to see the domination and sexy execution of that no hydra den build that kwanro seems to have success with.
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I would really like to see this match
too late though
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
On November 08 2007 12:36 Jonteman wrote:
I can't believe there actually is some people rooting for Mind
There are plenty of Savior haters to root for Mind. I am rooting for Shudder over Bisu by the way.
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I can imagine a Mind of Xellos final, with Savior and Bisu in the audience supporting whom they lost with thinking "at least I lost to the champion" :D
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Hey if it becomes Mind vs Xellos final ul still see Savior vs Bisu fightin for 3rd place. =D that sounds good too, Savior just needs to get revenge on Bisu, he doesnt have to win the MSL
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I call this poem "Mind Beats Savior 3-0."
The month was November,
A cold winter night,
The wind, it did bluster,
So began the fight.
Savior looked wary,
His opponent resolute,
Mind did not tarry,
He gave Savior the boot.
The crowd did not cheer,
Not a fan 'round did linger,
They retreated in fear,
As Mind gave Savior the finger.
For the month was November,
A cold winter night,
Mind flashed Savior his member,
And wow, what a sight!
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I think Mind leveled up after that poem.
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I call this poem "Fuck that shit, Savior 3-0"
Maestro fallen, bees to the pollen,
rises to his knees humbled, not beaten.
Though dark dances of his defeat sorely felt,
Gui Montag soars too high and his wax wings melt.
The Messiah will rise anon, above the kind,
of bird of nativity and freedom and irresolute mind,
Edit: E-cookie for whoever gets all the shitty references.
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By Savior winning this is so important, because Savior will become(if he loses to Bisu in the final)
3 Msl Championships
and 3 MSL Runner up.
All in a row ;o
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not in a row, he lost in the quarters to fbh last season
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On November 08 2007 13:57 InfesTeD]i[ wrote:
By Savior winning this is so important, because Savior will become(if he loses to Bisu in the final)
3 Msl Championships
and 3 MSL Runner up.
All in a row ;o
He could lose to bisu or xellos.
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On November 08 2007 13:21 kabumpo wrote:
I can imagine a Mind of Xellos final, with Savior and Bisu in the audience supporting whom they lost with thinking "at least I lost to the champion" :D
Savior would be supporting Xellos.
On November 08 2007 13:30 Aillusion wrote:
Hey if it becomes Mind vs Xellos final ul still see Savior vs Bisu fightin for 3rd place. =D that sounds good too, Savior just needs to get revenge on Bisu, he doesnt have to win the MSL
MSL has no third place matches, sorry. :[
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Gah, progaming is such an unknown quantity these days.
I'll tip Savior but with no real confidence. It wouldn't shock me if Mind won.
It's really hard to judge this one since we don't know much about Mind's TvZ.
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Please god, no more bw poetry.
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On November 08 2007 13:21 kabumpo wrote:
I can imagine a Mind of Xellos final, with Savior and Bisu in the audience supporting whom they lost with thinking "at least I lost to the champion" :D
Savior and Bisu BOTH lose? How is that imaginable?
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On November 08 2007 14:23 wliu2385 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2007 14:19 i.play.ZERG wrote:On November 08 2007 13:21 kabumpo wrote:
I can imagine a Mind of Xellos final, with Savior and Bisu in the audience supporting whom they lost with thinking "at least I lost to the champion" :D Savior and Bisu BOTH lose? How is that imaginable? Didn't something like that happen in last seasons osl? Just about the most unlikely outcome?
In BO3s against harder opponents.
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United States5262 Posts
I remember when idiotic people thought cracking StarCraft jokes with sex and other immature stuff was so funny. It was funny the first couple times but it lost its spontaneity quickly. I like some StarCraft poetry, especially the stuff in Final Edits. Hopefully no one will ruin it...
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United States5262 Posts
sAviOr please win so XellOs and you can have a CJ final showdown similar to Ever 2004 when iloveoov and BoxeR had an SKT final showdown for the ages.
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You should be more worried about Xellos winning
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Three hours!
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On November 08 2007 15:01 i.play.ZERG wrote:
You should be more worried about Xellos winning
Well, it can't happen if Savior loses first, now can it? :p
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Hungary11291 Posts
No matter who wins, an exciting, extended match would be preferable over a quick rape. Or not? [oh and besides, I will miss watching the first hour or so, so they better stretch it a bit ]
From a purely literal point of view, I like the idea of "Mind" triumphing over macro, mania and jesus. Would be quite a theme of modern time.
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Savior will win easily...hopefully. I just hope that Savior doesn't underestimate Mind ^^
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On November 08 2007 14:06 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
Please god, no more bw poetry.
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On November 08 2007 16:39 Gokey wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2007 14:06 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
Please god, no more bw poetry.
soooooo qft
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Valhalla18444 Posts
rub a dub dub
mind's corpse in a tub
yea savior
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On November 08 2007 16:59 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
rub a dub dub
mind's corpse in a tub
yea savior
Art. Fakesteve wins. End of poetry.
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So far this MSL the only true test of nearly equal players that could have gone either way has been Bisu and Hwasin, so many of the series so far have been one sided, though Savior vs Stork was an interesting one because it seemed like Stork could have won it, but Savior didn't do a normal opening on Blue Storm and tried some weird shit, free should have come before Stork, but unfortunately it'd probably turn into another PvP finale. Anyways we're just getting closer to the inevitable Bisu vs Savior I think, unless Xell0s manages to beat Bisu, then I predict seeing Savior win his 4th MSL and Xellos finally fading away after this, his last hurrah.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
roses are red
violets are blue
mind sucks
his fans do too
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On November 08 2007 17:39 intrigue wrote:
roses are red
violets are blue
mind sucks
his fans do too
QFT
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On November 08 2007 14:53 jkillashark wrote:
I remember when idiotic people thought cracking StarCraft jokes with sex and other immature stuff was so funny. It was funny the first couple times but it lost its spontaneity quickly. I like some StarCraft poetry, especially the stuff in Final Edits. Hopefully no one will ruin it...
may i put my firebat in your bunker?
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im pretty sure savior will take this
but mind seems like a very solid play
we must see
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On November 08 2007 17:39 intrigue wrote:
roses are red
violets are blue
mind sucks
his fans do too
rofl. i really hope sAviOr wins. If sAviOr wins it we 100% have a great finals.
XellOs on the comeback and team mate vs team mate or rematch of the current era with the 2 most winning players in the past year, Bisu vs sAviOr.
sAviOr 3-1 Mind gogo~
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
i dont care who wins as long as its savior
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On November 08 2007 13:30 Aillusion wrote:
Hey if it becomes Mind vs Xellos final ul still see Savior vs Bisu fightin for 3rd place. =D that sounds good too, Savior just needs to get revenge on Bisu, he doesnt have to win the MSL
wtf NO it sounds like shit.
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On November 08 2007 18:17 wifeH wrote:
starting soon yes?
yes
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9 more minutes
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One person voted for mind, the rest said savior would win  . Bisu also agrees, he knows the outcome
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Live reports, please!
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China3334 Posts
On November 08 2007 18:27 Lycaeus wrote:One person voted for mind, the rest said savior would win . Bisu also agrees, he knows the outcome
you beat me, i didn't catch the full voting part. i guess it was a prematch interview.
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On November 08 2007 18:27 Lycaeus wrote:One person voted for mind, the rest said savior would win . Bisu also agrees, he knows the outcome
that one person is me
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great, I'm in time and stream is working. Gonna be good.
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sc2.org doesnt work again?
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savior please win 3-0 so i can get a good night sleep
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I was studying until 4:30 am for 2 exams on friday and I think i'll take a break and watch savior destroy mind in less than 1 hour. (do it for me savior, I need to sleep soon!)
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51449 Posts
Wow, Mind got demolished 18 months ago on RH3 by Savior (when he was 15)
:O
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this is gonna be a fast 3-0
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Then tell them why it doesn't work, and they'll stop asking.
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Savior looks calm Mind looks nervous!!
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On November 08 2007 18:41 PuertoRican wrote:Then tell them why it doesn't work, and they'll stop asking.
I have actually, I've said it at least 3 times that I can remember from. They are just different people that don't use search :O
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game started:
mind top right, savior bottom left, blue storm
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STARTED Blue Storm, savior at 7, mind at 2
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game 1
blue storm
savior down
mind up
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Savior going 2hatch gas, mind FEing
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Ahh my fbh senses keep tingling.
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Savior making an unusual amount of lings right now, Mind builds bunker.
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savior got about 7 lings inside Mind's base w/ ling speed
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savior going fast lurker, Mind seeing the hydra den though
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yeah the YY stream is probably a bit after, so there's no point in reporting too much from here
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Mind defends VERY well by using SCVs and rines. no damage done
the heck?
savior building an expo just west of mind's base.
he tends to do this a lot.
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Mind has a huge advantage. Savior's zerlings were ineffective, and he scouted Savior's lurker tech. Now he just has to, y'know, not screw it up.
Added: And he screwed it up.
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Mind tries to run in b4 lurkers are done morphing, but savior sending in drones to stop it.. savior lost about 5 drones but Minds small army falls
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MIND TRIES TO RUN RINES IN. BLOCKED JUST IN TIME BY SAVIOR LINGS AN DRONES
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Mind reads Savior like a book.
I don't agree he screwed it up Etter, imo Mind just solidified his advantage by killing 3-5 drones of Savior's already low worker population.
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Mind scouts saviors nearby expo.
savior putting up spire
savior puts up a lurker contain outside mind's base
mind gets fact
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Savior looks fatter everytime I see him.
It\'s a recent thing too.
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Mind in a very good position, could saviors mechanics surpass the economical disadvantage? o_o
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United States4991 Posts
On November 08 2007 18:49 PuertoRican wrote:
Savior looks fatter everytime I see him.
It's a recent thing too.
He's turning into july!
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savior teching to hive soon as queens nest is nearly complete
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awesome play by savior so far
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HOLY CRAP mind just took out two containing lurkers by running MMF on TOP of the lurkers, losing only a few marines.
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he actually lost no marines, just a firebat -_-
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Savior's doing fine.
Mind is contained, gonna take him a while to build some tanks/vessels.
Savior can now power.
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Savior tries to muta harass, but to no avail
savior getting greater spire AND defiler mound.
mind puts up two ports
EDIT: THREE ports
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3 startports coming from Mind, he probably has a shit load of gas
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guardians incoming from the top expo of savior
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3 starport going up for mind
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Savior getting defilers, mind has a wraith
Mind sieging tanks on savior's nearby expo
GREAT PLAYS
Savior guards his expo with a few guards, but savior brings in hydras from nydus!
Then savior puts down lurkers and defends his expo!
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waahhh stream failed TT_TT
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hmm guardians, but mind has 2 ports T.T
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Wow! That was quite a fight over savior's 1 expo. Just managed to hang on to it.
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seems like minds gonna take this one 8(
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this may end badly for saviour from the sounds of it. 3 port sci vessell going to be hard to stop despite saviours awesome scourge and defiler micro.
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Mind went for savior's nat, but is stopped by swarm. Mind puts up expo at bottom left,
Savior harassing mind's nat with one guard
M&M takes it out
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savior dropping 2 overlords with lurkers/lings and a defiler planting the swarm infront of the rax and savior burrows 2 lurkers under the swarm
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Mind unloading 2 dropships into Saviors main
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hi whats the score, just tuned up and i wanna see the game not search the 8 pages plz dont flame;)
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SAVIOR DROPS ON MINDS MAIN WITH DEFILER LURKER LING
WOW MIND DROPS RIGHT BACK IN SAVIORS MAIN WITH M&M
THIS IS A VERY NUTTY GAME
MIND TAKING OUT HIVE, SAVIOR KILLS WORKERS IN MINDS MAIN
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Mind is clearing out saviors main, destroying all important buildings while minds main is taking less of dmg
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doesnt look good for savior at all
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vessels aproaching critical mass.. saviors seems fucked
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Mind takes LESS damage from saviors drop, Mind multitasking VERY well doing small things like taking out ovies with wraiths and attacking lurkers
savior drops 2 lurks at mind's nat, but it's dealt with. mind has 1200 mins but only 4 rax
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Mind has about 6 wraiths to kill drops from overlords
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savior drops on Minds bottom right expo
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you watch it with gom tv? it always lagging... no other choice than yaoyuan which doesn't work?
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Mind is playing far above the level I expected of him thus far. o :
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can this only be viewed at sc2.org? i dont have ggomplayer is there somewhere else i can watch it? sc2 isnt working for me.. maybe yaoyuan?
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Mind has a bunch of wraiths killing random ovies and stuff. he starts an expo equivalent to where savior put his.
Savior lossssssssing
wraiths taking out saviors nat, tanks and m&m take out saviors expo near mind
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Hatch at 12 gone. Savior is in deep ass.
EDIT: Seems like not only tosses seek air superiority vs zerg nowadays. Those wraiths were quite useful.
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yaoyuan was working, but it died
keep the reports up ppl, good job!
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dammit, it lags and savior is fucked.
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savior losing alot of drones to wraiths
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sc22 and yaoyuan isnt working...
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link to yaoyuan stream please
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51449 Posts
I really like the way Mind is using wraiths this game.
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There's really not much else to say, Savior should GG soon.
although he had an advantage in the beginning, mind played REALLY well. he seriously took advantage of EVERYTHING, and adapted to everything savior threw at him
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Say gg, goddamit, you're making fun of yourself.
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gg coming anytime from savior
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Multi-tasking is perhaps Mind's greatest strength? It seems to have been a prominent feature in many of his recent victories.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Savior gg's, 1:0.
Mind played well, Savior played awful.
EDIT: if it's gonna be a TvT final, I'll fucking shoot myself.
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Savior please use normal build kthx.
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I don't get why terrans don't just all get like 3 wraiths to harass everywhere. Wouldn't cost that much, and would be invaluable to take out stray overlords/expansions.
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Mind for power rank O_o
I'm 75% sure he's going to beat Savior in this series
EDIT: simply because of how well he adapted to Savior's play. it was flawless, and he was creative.
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Who else is having trouble with streams?
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Savior\'s zvt hasn\'t been his strongest mu for a while now!
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On November 08 2007 19:05 blagoonga123 wrote:
I don't get why terrans don't just all get like 3 wraiths to harass everywhere. Wouldn't cost that much, and would be invaluable to take out stray overlords/expansions.
Vessels are more cost effective.
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I have faith in savior, he's just building up mind's confidence and then completely crushin him while being 0-2 behind!!!
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I'm surprised Savior played 2 hatch all-in strat, in a map which favours Zerg against Terran. I really can't understand the way he played this game...
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Because vessels take a long time to build, and you most cases you need vessels over wraiths.. so u cant be building a wraith when you need vessels like asap. And yeah vessels are defiantly more cost effective
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On November 08 2007 19:05 blagoonga123 wrote:
I don't get why terrans don't just all get like 3 wraiths to harass everywhere. Wouldn't cost that much, and would be invaluable to take out stray overlords/expansions.
Lol like sairs to Protoss'
And you dont need a sair dt build, wraiths can cloak themselves!
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On November 08 2007 19:06 Elsi wrote:
Savior\'s zvt hasn\'t been his strongest mu for a while now!
Savior's been practicing too much zvp
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Yea what the hell, just 3 hatch Savior. Whats this cute shit.
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why didn't saviour just do his standard zillion hatch power build?
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OMG SAVIOR LOST OMG OMG THE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END OMG
you guys should calm down. Its not that savior is playing bad, just the other players are starting to adapt to his game.
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zomg it was game 1 of the series... savior will still crush mind
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I couldn't tell if he scouted the CC early or not. If he scouted it early, he might have been trying to get ahead by using those early lings.
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loki ii: mind 2, savior 8
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fucking gom player is streaming like hell
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Mind scouting extra fast, mayb a proxy build?
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looks like mind is proxying?
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Mind sending out another scv
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argh none of the streams are workign 8(
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SAVIOR 12 HATCHING, ROFL!!, NO HE SCOUTED WITH DRONE AND SAW NO DEPOT!! 12 POOL
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proxy raxx by mind savior using his psychic skills sends drone to scout
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SAVIOR SCOUTS BASE SEES NOTHING SUSPECTS PROXY BUILDS PPOOL
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savior going for 9 pool speedlings
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SAVIOR GO FIND THE FREAKING BBS AND KILL IT WITH DRONES, NOT MICRO SOME DRONE
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On November 08 2007 19:09 mdb wrote:
OMG SAVIOR LOST OMG OMG THE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END OMG
you guys should calm down. Its not that savior is playing bad, just the other players are starting to adapt to his game.
Disagreed. I'll tell you how game 1 looked like. It looked like Mind is a champion, started winning from the start. And Savior looked like a cheesy rookie who just delayed his inevitable loss by going some stupid and fancy tricks. Looked like an annoying bug. That is not championship performance.
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2 proxy rax fuck fuck block it savior!! savior didn't scout the rax, but sees no scv, and pools faster than usual instead of expo. rine coming up ramp, drone micro time ! Come on
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Oh fuck, someone successfully cheesed Savior.
EDIT: on the other hand, Mind's mind played a trick on him and he gg'ed.
1:1
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On November 08 2007 19:13 BluzMan wrote:
Oh fuck, someone successfully cheesed Savior.
.......
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WOOOOOOOOOOOOOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT SAVIORRRRRRR
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LOL mind GGs when he didn't even get touched. he knew his proxy wouldn't work anymore
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On November 08 2007 19:13 BluzMan wrote:
Oh fuck, someone successfully cheesed Savior.
Yeah right..
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lololol you can't cheese savior....when do they learn it
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Wow that was fast. Anyone know the total gametime for that?
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that was some PRO drone control. he lost like one.
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So many failed to rush savior. Why do they still try? =)
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Savior will win this 3-1. And I will lose 5 points.
By the way, what's the longest losing streak in liquibet?
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United States7488 Posts
Well... I for sure won\'t have to eat my sock now. C\'mon Savior pull of two more!
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I think that was a smart effort by Mind. He'd already won game 1 and if he'd managed to pull off the proxy (which he ALMOST did), then the series would have been as good as over since Savior would have been in a major hole both down 2-0 and PSYCHOLOGICALLY which is something that the old Savior never had problems with. Now they're even, but Mind basically tried to win the entire series in one swoop, which isn't a bad idea seeing as how he's probably still the inferior player overall.
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god i love it when people try to cheese savior. it\'s like an auto-win for him haha
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
that really pissed me off that mind just left like that, even though its like a 1% chance that savior fucks up his micro and kills nothing with the 3 lings, i still think he should play it out no?
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I think Mind knew what was coming, but yeah I woulda played it out
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On November 08 2007 19:15 darktreb wrote:
I think that was a smart effort by Mind. He'd already won game 1 and if he'd managed to pull off the proxy (which he ALMOST did), then the series would have been as good as over since Savior would have been in a major hole both down 2-0 and PSYCHOLOGICALLY which is something that the old Savior never had problems with. Now they're even, but Mind basically tried to win the entire series in one swoop, which isn't a bad idea seeing as how he's probably still the inferior player overall.
yeah a predictable move by a weaker player with the lead. now he blew the chance to put himself in a real good position in 3 minutes and made savior want to eat his soul. i wish him good luck for the rest of the series!
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Savior won the world make sense again!
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LOL Progamers and commentators voting for who'll win between savior and mind
9 tallies for savior (bisu for him too), 1 tally for mind, 1 tally for "no idea"
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Zodiac coming up, should be interesting.
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Wtf? Lecaf coach voted for mind?
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They showed some progamers and coaches giving predictions for this match. 9 predicted Savior to win, and one (I don't remember who it was) predicted Mind to win. Jaedong passed =)
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China3334 Posts
On November 08 2007 19:16 Rekrul wrote:
that really pissed me off that mind just left like that, even though its like a 1% chance that savior fucks up his micro and kills nothing with the 3 lings, i still think he should play it out no?
I can't agree more. Why young progamers intend to throw away games such easy? S*** I save my praise to Mind of his performance in game 1.
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what stream at sc2 ogn or mbc?
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Braavos36375 Posts
jaedong said pass rofl
Jaedong: Hey hey hey lets be best friends!!!
Savior: Get this kid away from me.
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On November 08 2007 19:21 randomKo_Orean wrote:
Because Lecaf coach... wait damn, they are 8-2 in proleague..
Sending out jaedong, anytime and ForGG is hard sometimes.
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On November 08 2007 19:22 Hot_Bid wrote:jaedong said pass rofl Jaedong: Hey hey hey lets be best friends!!! Savior: Get this kid away from me.
Savior looks PISSED
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On November 08 2007 19:22 Hot_Bid wrote:jaedong said pass rofl Jaedong: Hey hey hey lets be best friends!!! Savior: Get this kid away from me.
ROFL!!!!
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finish next 2 matches in 10minutes savior so i can goto sleep
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God I want some of that Primo stuff
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I like this "don't fuck with me" look.
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Mind tried to proxy, savior went 9 pool and defended superbly? Mind GG\'d after his proxy failed? hmmm, sounds weird. Like Rek said, he shud of sent some scvs+rines to defend??
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Savior in that picture = badassery in a can.
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Braavos36375 Posts
On November 08 2007 19:24 Elsi wrote:
Mind tried to proxy, savior went 9 pool and defended superbly? Mind GG\'d after his proxy failed? hmmm, sounds weird. Like Rek said, he shud of sent some scvs+rines to defend??
Mind went BBS.
Savior went 12 drones, scouted and saw no raxes, brought the drone he was going to build an expo with back into his base and started a pool, was like a ~13 pool
Savior lost a few drones but killed Mind's first two marines and got a sunken down. His first 4-6 lings broke the scv+marines at the ramp, and Mind retreated to his raxes, Savior ran 3 lings by and Mind GG'd.
Mind was dead but probably should've stayed and played it out at least a few more minutes.
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with Gom player, which button do i press to watch the game?
red or yellow?
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maybe Savior is just that intimidating? like you have to not fuck up EVER to win kind of thing.. but I know if it was Savior whom fucks up his cheese, he would play till the end o_O
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Mind's quick GG could be interpreted as a sign of confidence ... he knows he's beat so just play the next 3 games now, as opposed to drawing out this loss and letting Savior build up even more steam. When Savior gets on a roll he starts to make good things happen out of bleak situations, so maybe having him play less is the better idea.
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On November 08 2007 19:28 Elsi wrote:
with Gom player, which button do i press to watch the game?
red or yellow?
Yellow. less lag
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Yellow?
I see a red and orange button -_-
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Red orange, red yellow, same difference. Choose the lighter shade.
Mind going standard 2 rax. savior 12 hatch 11 pool i believe
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bbs again, savior 12 pools
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my bad. it was standard 2 rax.
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On November 08 2007 19:31 skindzer wrote:
bbs again, savior 12 pools
That's not BBS. it's supply rax rax, standard 2 rax.
mind now FEing
savior throws a hatch at his ramp and puts up a sunken at nat
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On November 08 2007 19:28 wifeH wrote:
maybe Savior is just that intimidating? like you have to not fuck up EVER to win kind of thing.. but I know if it was Savior whom fucks up his cheese, he would play till the end o_O
Please stop being stupid. Savior got schooled like a girl in game 1 and came very close to loss in game 2, losing several drones.
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savior snuck in his overlord and saw no gas for Mind, so now he knows hes fe'ing
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On November 08 2007 19:32 edzwoo wrote:That's not BBS. it's supply rax rax, standard 2 rax. mind now FEing
didnt saw the fist supply ^^
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On November 08 2007 19:32 BluzMan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2007 19:28 wifeH wrote:
maybe Savior is just that intimidating? like you have to not fuck up EVER to win kind of thing.. but I know if it was Savior whom fucks up his cheese, he would play till the end o_O Please stop being stupid. Savior got schooled like a girl in game 1 and came very close to loss in game 2, losing several drones.
your mom is stupid.
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Savior gets spire and runs off two extractors, mind pushing out with mmf
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On November 08 2007 19:32 BluzMan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2007 19:28 wifeH wrote:
maybe Savior is just that intimidating? like you have to not fuck up EVER to win kind of thing.. but I know if it was Savior whom fucks up his cheese, he would play till the end o_O Please stop being stupid. Savior got schooled like a girl in game 1 and came very close to loss in game 2, losing several drones.
I think you need to stop being stupid, he basically lost cause of his risky build, how did he get 'schooled like a girl'? rofl. and he was fine in game 2 it was never close IMO
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gom doesn't work for mE!
damm!!!
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BAD for mind, he just lost his entire MMF force trying to break through saviors 3 sunken wall
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And here come the mutas with no turrets and low marine count...
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Mind's nat going down to mutaling
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Mind GGs
He also looks flustered and nervous.
Forget what I said about 75% mind winning. Not only is savior 2:1 atm, but Mind is losing his nerves.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
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aha, at last!
working!
superslow tho!
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damn, my stream died at the end
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Boneheaded play from Mind.
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i think i speak for us all when i say YAAAAAA MA JAE YOON!
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next game would be crucial
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That was some awesome play by savior. I wish the game had lasted a lot longer, though. I enjoy his swarm and ling/lurk control.
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Cheers, Maestro! End it on Python for sure
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On November 08 2007 19:38 randomKo_Orean wrote:
Mind is gg'ed g'nite guys
It's bo5
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ma jae yoon didnt play very well at python
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Lesson nr 1 vs Savior: don't be late with turrets.
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mind is nervous, he leaves his scvs ideal after the supply depot
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On November 08 2007 19:42 Aillusion wrote:
mind is nervous, he leaves his scvs ideal after the supply depot
do you mean idol?
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Well, since no one's saying anything...
Mind at 6, savior at 9. Savior scouted with ovie right off, going 12 hatch.
mind goes 1rax --> FE
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Braavos36375 Posts
On November 08 2007 19:37 edzwoo wrote:
Mind GGs
He also looks flustered and nervous.
Forget what I said about 75% mind winning. Not only is savior 2:1 atm, but Mind is losing his nerves.
and after Savior wins 3-1, you will change it to 100% sure Savior will win, right?
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Mind puts up bunker against early lings and blocks ramp with an scv. savior camping lings outside mind's nat
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On November 08 2007 19:44 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2007 19:37 edzwoo wrote:
Mind GGs
He also looks flustered and nervous.
Forget what I said about 75% mind winning. Not only is savior 2:1 atm, but Mind is losing his nerves. and after Savior wins 3-1, you will change it to 100% sure Savior will win, right?
he's also saying mind still has an advantage over savior in a single given game
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Oh man.. Mind FORGOT about that SCV...It's been idle for more than 2 minutes... That's painful to watch.
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On November 08 2007 19:44 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2007 19:37 edzwoo wrote:
Mind GGs
He also looks flustered and nervous.
Forget what I said about 75% mind winning. Not only is savior 2:1 atm, but Mind is losing his nerves. and after Savior wins 3-1, you will change it to 100% sure Savior will win, right?
Of course not. You're underestimating Mind XD
ebay and acad up for mind, he's putting up a third rax
savior morphing 3 sunkens at main and mind pushing out with mmf
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i guess a 3:2 advantage or so
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Go Mind! 5 game series is what I want to see. I don't really mind who comes out on top.
On November 08 2007 19:43 saranghaeCY- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2007 19:42 Aillusion wrote:
mind is nervous, he leaves his scvs ideal after the supply depot do you mean idol?
The word is idle, for what it's worth.
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one idle SCV = autoloss vs Savior :p
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Den going up for savior, along with muta harass which ALMOST took out a turret, but didn't. savior taking more expos. Seems like he does that when he feels fear in his opponent =D
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He found it! Someone give this kid a trophy!
(I'm being super harsh, I know. I shouldn't be, I know I'd be nervous enough to do stuff like that. :/)
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That idle SCV is probably just meditating. Soon it will break out to wreak devastation upon the enemy forces. It'll be jumping up and ripping Mutas out of the sky. Just you wait!
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On November 08 2007 19:47 Waves wrote:Go Mind! 5 game series is what I want to see. I don't really mind who comes out on top.
I sea wat yoo did thare
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Eat your hold lurker Savior! =)))
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Firebat scouting for mind. i think he realizes savior has a 12oclock expo
M&M coming out. takes out two of savior's lurks.
someone explain why a firebat scout instead of a marine scout?
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Mind's ball of death is huge
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no, savior needs defilers asap
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get ready for a sick pincer attack by savior
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Fast hive again. I'm feeling bad about ZvT nowadays.
EDIT: Savior makes a retarted attack on Mind's nat that loses him alot alot of troops and does exactly 0 damage.
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On November 08 2007 19:50 edzwoo wrote:
Firebat scouting for mind. i think he realizes savior has a 12oclock expo
M&M coming out. takes out two of savior's lurks.
someone explain why a firebat scout instead of a marine scout?
Need's his marines to fight off muts and lurks?
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3 WAY ATTACK BY SAVIOR BUT HE DOESNT TAKE OUT MINDS ATTACK
edit: more details.
mind attacks saviors nat with tanks, a vessel, and M&M, savior attacks with a bunch of lurklings from THREE directions, but fails to kill mind's attacking force. game over from there
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
FUCK NICE MICRO FROM MIND, SAVIOR'S NAT UNDER SIEGE!!!
PERFECT TIMING VS A FAST HIVE!!!
SAVIOR GG!!!
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fucking gom is so damn laggy
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Fast Hive = gg, when will you fucking learn?
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D matrix is crazy when zerg doesn't have swarm @_@
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
lol that 2 minute idle scv was cute
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how was his flank? did mjy mess up or was mind's positioning too good? my stream lagged.
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=( No!!!!!!!!
Savior, how the hell is every random T (and P for that matter) pushing you to the wall these days =(
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Savior's counter with the lurks into Mind's nat cost him the game. The lurks were too badly damaged after that to defeat the push with a flank.
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I'm surprised that flank failed so badly, what happened?
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omg noooo! SAVIOR GO GAME 5!!
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On November 08 2007 19:54 ItchReliever wrote:
how was his flank? did mjy mess up or was mind's positioning too good? my stream lagged.
looked pretty good, didn't really mess up. Mind just had many units and some control.
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On November 08 2007 19:55 darktreb wrote:
I'm surprised that flank failed so badly, what happened?
Marines microed to attack lurks + dmatrix + weak lurks from attack on mind's nat = death
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Man, he had the defiler mound for ages... wtf
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TvZ is 3-12 on this map, come on Savior....
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positioning was good, all rines spread out.
like i said, the jury's out on savior's zvt, it isn't as impressive as be4.
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Yeah, I guess those lurkers were pretty hurt from that fruitless attack ... they just popped so quickly before they could even wipe out all the Marines.
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Savior's lurks died like zerglings to Mind's MM because they were all in the red.
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On November 08 2007 19:54 Rekrul wrote:
lol that 2 minute idle scv was cute
was 3 minutes =(
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Help, which channel in daum pls? yy's stream is about 5 minutes behind....
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On November 08 2007 19:55 FieryBalrog wrote:
=( No!!!!!!!!
Savior, how the hell is every random T (and P for that matter) pushing you to the wall these days =(
That's not true at all, he still holds a great record. I strongly go against that Mind is just some "random T." even if he loses today, one loss is from a cheese, and his performance was stellar.
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Go to GomTV and click on the MSL link, click yes to whatever it tells you to install.
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Mind for +50 LB ranks GOGO
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On November 08 2007 19:57 Nintu wrote:was 3 minutes =(
So wait, I totally missed this. What exactly happened? Idle scout scv?
EDIT: LOL mind has a website. www.somethingsomething.com/WeMadePark
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anyone know what the song for the intro movie of the MSL is? sorry, i haven't been up to date.
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Yeah Mind probably practiced hell of a lot for these games too. A semi is his biggest thing yet isn't it?
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On November 08 2007 19:58 edzwoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2007 19:55 FieryBalrog wrote:
=( No!!!!!!!!
Savior, how the hell is every random T (and P for that matter) pushing you to the wall these days =( That's not true at all, he still holds a great record. I strongly go against that Mind is just some "random T." even if he loses today, one loss is from a cheese, and his performance was stellar.
While it seems Mind played well (can't watch), he's still definitely a random T, I mean this is the first time most people have really ever heard of him, and he got up through all TvT matches, the guy is unknown enough to have only played 3 pro games vs Zerg ever...
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omg savior why are u doing this to me 2-2
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On November 08 2007 19:58 LOcDowN wrote:
Go to GomTV and click on the MSL link, click yes to whatever it tells you to install.
GOM doesn't work for me
only daum works...
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im gonna play savage when i come back i wanna c 3-2 SAVIOR WINS
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yeah have to agree with fierybalrog there, he's a random.
saviour losing here will be a huge let down
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wait, I thought daum didn't stream 'GOM' MSL Season 3?
EDIT: yeah I'm pretty sure daum doesnt stream MSL O_o I think if they stream anything off of MBC its only proleague, but correct me if I'm wrong
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Same blue storm as last time. mind top right, savior bottom left
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On November 08 2007 19:59 edzwoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2007 19:57 Nintu wrote:On November 08 2007 19:54 Rekrul wrote:
lol that 2 minute idle scv was cute was 3 minutes =( So wait, I totally missed this. What exactly happened? Idle scout scv?
The scv that built his first depot remained still after building it for 3 minutes. It was just out of range of his starting location (like, if you hit f2, it would be just above that screen, so just out of sight). To give you an idea of how long it was idle, I'm pretty sure it's second action after building that supply depot, was building an e-bay.
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game starting.
can you feel it?
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come on savior!! a starleague finals isn't a final without you in it
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guys
is the stream at SC2.org working? It doens´t work here
Are there alternatives to watch the game?
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(wait, someone is already reporting, right?)
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On November 08 2007 20:03 Sadness wrote:
guys
is the stream at SC2.org working? It doens´t work here
Are there alternatives to watch the game?
the 5th post about sc2 not working o_O
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
People are reporting from GOM stream, but it is laggy as hell atm.
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On November 08 2007 20:04 saranghaeCY- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2007 20:03 Sadness wrote:
guys
is the stream at SC2.org working? It doens´t work here
Are there alternatives to watch the game? the 5th post about sc2 not working o_O
yeah maybe it would help if someone accually answered the questions, dumbass
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he should have 3 hatch speedling , P
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Mind, learning from previous games, puts a supply near entrance to main along with a bunker to block off possible ling invasion
EDIT: he cancelled his bunker after realizing there was no mass ling attack
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Whew, finally 3 hatch. Stop that shitty "I know kung-fu" play and win, Savior, it fucking matters now.
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people have answered the question 'dumbass', not only in this thread but in 9999999999999 others
use the search function
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Den going up for savior midway through lair. standard build.
SCV scouts it all
Mind moving out with a bunch of marines no medics or bats
Medics come out but mind knows he can't break through saviors wall
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i dont see the answer.. i saw a guy saying yauyuan worked though so where is the link and also you dont really have time to look at 9999999999 other threads.. and if you've been inactive for a while you really dont know whats going on
dumbass
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
A spiroden build, possibly to trick mind into preparing for lurkers.
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Mind getting port.
Savior has lurks, and getting queens nest. no real action
savior grabs 7 oclock expo 2 lurks guarding
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
OMG NOT AGAIN.
Hive? What the hell are you thinking?
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saviour still with 3 hatch, 2 expansions or 3?
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bluestorm is a perfect map to get fast hive
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On November 08 2007 20:08 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
i dont see the answer.. i saw a guy saying yauyuan worked though so where is the link and also you dont really have time to look at 9999999999 other threads.. and if you've been inactive for a while you really dont know whats going on
dumbass
http://teamliquid.net/forum/search.php
You don't have time to use this function?? but you have time starting useless arguments over nothing when you can just fucking find it in search in under 2minutes
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Tank-heavy build from Mind vs Savior's fast hive. I smell daisies.
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shit fast hive,
do or die for savior, ballsy move since he's lost with it already.
fast defilers will make or break
hope mind doesn't be a physic and push
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same strat he used against Hwasin in MSL on Longinus.
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Holy crap, stop lurkers by mind takes out a good amount of marines, mind retreats only to walk into 6 more lurkers, BUT he manages to take out 7 oclock expo.
marines block off expo to top left for savior
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
I hardly recognized what happened due to lag, but it seems Savior just negated the handicap fast hive gave him by some lurker gayness.
EDIT: or not, if the expo at 7 is truely dead, I can't see it atm.
EDIT2: it is, oh fuckity fuck.
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Not good for savior eco wise. 2 base terran vs 2 base zerg. terran soon to be 3
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oh man, savior loses army again because of late swarm
savior loses 7 oclock expo AGAIN to two marines
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wtf horrible swarms come out after his army dies.
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he's sacrificed eco for that fast hive/defiler
he better make that count now, before mind bunkers in
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
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Mind controls his marines nicely too. He want to win this badly~~
Savior just messed up his micro a bit
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Savior stops a drop. How cute.
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savior takes out minds drop very luckily, but savior is losing badly on eco
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That set of swarms made me think of Bnet lagg..
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OH MAN DROP IN SAVIORS MAIN
edit: savior plagues it and kills it with lings.
savior gets top left expo
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
ooohh shit, a drop in savior's main!!!
GOT PLAGUOWNED!!
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Savior plagues half of mind's vessels. savior also takes min only, but mind has 4 base now
MIND drops saviors top left.
HYDRA COMES OUT OF NYDUS AND SNIPES 3 PLAGUED VESSELS
TRIPLE DROPSHOP IN SAVIORS MAIN
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MAIN GOING DOWN
TOP LEFT EXPO DOWN
Savior is going to lose.
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mjy plays like he played against iris last time
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Mind vs Bisu tastes.. boring.
Mind vs Xellos tastes worse. please don't let that happen!
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Savior .... 2 base Z vs 4 base T ?? T___T )
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
MASS DROP IN SAVIORS MAIN!!!
EXPO AT 3 KILLED, STRAY HYDRA KILLS 5 PLAGUED VESSELS!!!
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savior's absolutely done :/
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season 2 repeat cept this was in semi's --
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
I told you, my dear stupid Savior. I love you, I adore you, but fast hive DOESN'T FUCKING WORK!
gg Mind wins.
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hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
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Mind sighs, then smiles a bit. savior with cj face
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CA10828 Posts
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Mexico1178 Posts
i am so fucking PISSED! T-T
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NOOOOOOOOo what the hell is going on in this world
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fuuuuuuck but mind is seriously good. i love savior but fuck he\'s skilled
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this is the best day ever
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sigh now im just hoping that bisu loses to xellos and we all get what we want -_-
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wow, there are no words... Looks like we can finally declare Savior's era of dominance totally dead. Bisu broke him, sundry other players finished the job.
Hopefully Bisu wins now so we have a real champion.
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http://cafe.daum.net/WeMadePark
I take back my take back of minds 75% chance of winning. Except change 75% to 100%
I KNEW he was skilled from his TvT management. I KNEW IT
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god damn it. Mind better win it all.
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What a shitty map for ZvT...
Well, Savior has himself to blame for not advancing to the finals. You might call the decision to tech hive in game 1 a questionable move, with Mind double expanding in the meantime, but in game 4 Savior just blew it by not waiting for /having swarm. Got to confident in his early game lead I guess...
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
wow savior really needs to stop fucking all the starcraft girls/fangirls honestly why else would he have bought such a good car recentlY? Where the fuck does he need to drive to?
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is this what it feels like for a no name to start owning? i don\\\'t like him but it\\\'s like we\\\'re being forced to accept him
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Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuck.... WHERE IS OUR BISU VS SAVIOR FINALS?????
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
TvT finals and MSL officially stops being a tournament that matters.
No Bisu vs Savior T_T
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now all we need is xellos to win over bisu and we can have "final that you dont want to watch, at all.." :D
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im speechless... i cant believe that happened...
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Savior\\\'s ZvT sounds way too predictable these days.
Always fast hive =/
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Savior is doomed to fail now. I wasn't too surprised, I thought that Savior would either win 3:1 or lose 2:3.
Bisu will rape both Terrans 3:0.
But soon Bisu will slump too and start losing to some no-names.
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words can't describe how disappointed I am at this result.
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i can sleep easy now.
thank you mind.
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sAviOr ZvT is broken, he\\\'s not the same player these days. I\\\'m afraid to say his ZvT is average
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CA10828 Posts
lmao, savior lost 2 times on a map that was previously imba 80% ZvT
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noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, those drops at the end were too nasty
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WOW!
+96 LB Ranks!
THANK YOU Mind!
GJ!
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On November 08 2007 20:26 Brutalisk wrote:
Savior is doomed to fail now. I wasn't too surprised, I thought that Savior would either win 3:1 or lose 2:3.
Bisu will rape both Terrans 3:0.
But soon Bisu will slump too and start losing to some no-names.
we are all frail vessels
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Now, all we need is Xellos > Bisu.
And then we have "finals that you dont want to watch... at all"
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"savior sucks now" kind of statements are bullshit. mind if just goddamn good. mind will beat bisu in an epic series.
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btw,
i voted mind
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wow.. savior really played like a pussy. reminds me of the oldstyle defiler rush shit that gorush used to always do, which failed like 90% of the time. i\'m dumbfounded as to why anyone would choose that kind of strat. you simply do not have the units to support defiler style play that early on...
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Yea, where is the goddamn grudge match finals! I was really looking forward to Bisu vs Savior, if only because Savior seems to have been working on some builds for Bisu.
On November 08 2007 20:25 Axidboy wrote:
now all we need is xellos to win over bisu and we can have "final that you dont want to watch, at all.." :D
Its not like Bisu vs Mind seems like it will be all that interesting either, although at least Bisu winning will be interesting in and of itself since it will definitively announce thata Protoss player is not only winning, he is dominating the scene as Boxer, Nada, Oov and Savior did before him.
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damnit zulu! you broke the page!
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i'm reaaaaally heartbroken
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so no zergs left in msl? what about osl
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ugh
savior played very un-savior-esque throughout the entire series T.T
how frowny :[
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This is a sad day
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Mind played well, no doubt about it, but I still don't feel too wowed by him. I honestly felt like savior just played poorly and predictably. I don't think Mind is anything special YET. Once he ties up the loose ends in his game, I feel like he has the potential to be huge. In the meantime, I think he played well against a diminishing Savior. As much as I don't like Xellos, I feel that Xellos is much stronger than Mind.
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no one could stand up to Bisu now!
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On November 08 2007 20:34 Nintu wrote:
Mind played well, no doubt about it, but I still don't feel too wowed by him. I honestly felt like savior just played poorly and predictably. I don't think Mind is anything special YET. Once he ties up the loose ends in his game, I feel like he has the potential to be huge. In the meantime, I think he played well against a diminishing Savior. As much as I don't like Xellos, I feel that Xellos is much stronger than Mind.
I don't get this. People are getting pissed that Savior used predictable builds and such, but everyone fails to realize mind also micro/macroed VERY well and stopped a lot of savior's attacks. usually savior ends up demolishing an army somewhere around the middle and takes a bunch of expos. Mind didn't let that happen.
Plus, where's Bisu in the picture? Not to mention, as far as we know, TvT is probably Mind's strongest matchup. I don't really see what "loose ends" mind has to tie up.
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Those drops were sexy. I see a parallel between mm drops and reaver drops vZ.
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Horrible.
What a sad day for savior
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why the fast hive
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After that flash loss, my mind said vote Mind. But I really thought that Savior had this. Well I know Bisu won't fuck this up !
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On November 08 2007 20:29 ItchReliever wrote:
"savior sucks now" kind of statements are bullshit. mind if just goddamn good. mind will beat bisu in an epic series.
Savior is KeSPA #3 and Mind isn't even in the top 30.
So what do you expect? Sure you can always say "the winner played better" but until Mind gains many KeSPA ranks, he's just a bad noname and the reason why he's won is because Savior played like shit.
And if Mind loses to Bisu 0:3 (which is VERY likely) you'll probably say "well Mind is just bad in TvP", eh? 
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On November 08 2007 20:41 Brutalisk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2007 20:29 ItchReliever wrote:
"savior sucks now" kind of statements are bullshit. mind if just goddamn good. mind will beat bisu in an epic series. Savior is KeSPA #3 and Mind isn't even in the top 30. So what do you expect? Sure you can always say "the winner played better" but until Mind gains many KeSPA ranks, he's just a bad noname and the reason why he's won is because Savior played like shit. And if Mind loses to Bisu 0:3 (which is VERY likely) you'll probably say "well Mind is just bad in TvP", eh?
fuck the rankings, did you see the games or not? stfu
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On November 08 2007 20:41 Brutalisk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2007 20:29 ItchReliever wrote:
"savior sucks now" kind of statements are bullshit. mind if just goddamn good. mind will beat bisu in an epic series. Savior is KeSPA #3 and Mind isn't even in the top 30. So what do you expect? Sure you can always say "the winner played better" but until Mind gains many KeSPA ranks, he's just a bad noname and the reason why he's won is because Savior played like shit. And if Mind loses to Bisu 0:3 (which is VERY likely) you'll probably say "well Mind is just bad in TvP", eh?
Are you kidding? So what about kespa rankings? That's like saying, "well TLPD says Mind used to suck, so therefore he's just a noname"
You just said the only possible, even feasible reason Mind won is because Savior played bad.
So it's impossible for mind to have played better than savior if savior played well?
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KeSPA is the objective skill ranking of all players.
It's about likeliness. It's much more likely that Savior lost because he played bad (mistake on his part) than because Mind is better than him (no mistake on Savior's part).
But I'm not going to argue any further with you, think what you want. But remember my words if Mind doesn't get far in the future.
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I did see the games and it was not insanely impressive. It seemed like a random proleague match with no passion in it whatsoever. I do believe Savior is the stronger player all around, but he played badly tonight.
I saw the games, I watched mind closely, and in my own humble opinion, Mind holds no candle to the other Terran's out there.
Just because he toppled Savior, doesn't mean he has to be some God.
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On November 08 2007 20:47 Brutalisk wrote:
KeSPA is the objective skill ranking of all players.
It's about likeliness. It's much more likely that Savior lost because he played bad (mistake on his part) than because Mind is better than Savior (no mistake on Savior's part).
But I'm not going to argue any further with you, think what you want.
This I agree with. It was probably more likely, but your last post made it seem like you were in total denial of Mind possibly playing well.
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Mind's progaming winrate is less than 50%.
And he is in MSL finals.
We all know what that means.
OMG, Etter's FE might have a grave miscalculation!!!!
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mind strikes me as a robot. unshakable and calculating. i think his level of multi-task is just as high as bisu, and that's why the finals should be really interesting. and what i saw in those games was mind outplaying savior when they both played regular. i felt his overall skill was greater than savior's.
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omg...................
i never watching savior play again T____T
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I'm pretty sure regardless of if Savior played bad or not, we can all agree Mind isn't a complete pushover. Granted I don't believe he can take on Bisu, he's at least power rank worthy at this point.
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this is not right!!! re game plz
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Funny thread from fomos " 김택용이 죽이고 이성은이 판 무덤에 박성균이 밀어넣다 "
" Bisu kills Savior, FireBathero digs a hole for Savior and Mind buries Savior "
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In all the time, I never expected this to happen. Denied a Bisu vs Savior final again : /
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Ok, I can't understand why almost all of you think Bisu has booked his place in the final.
I'll vote Xellos and climb 50+ more spots in the LB Rank.
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PJ pissed on savior's body.
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On November 08 2007 21:16 One Page Memory wrote:
Ok, I can't understand why almost all of you think Bisu has booked his place in the final.
I'll vote Xellos and climb 50+ more spots in the LB Rank.
OR, you'll vote Xellos and watch as 50+ people climb in front of you.
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i'm a terran player, but there's no player i rooted for as much as savior, he's definetly the one i like more, it's a very sad day for me.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On November 08 2007 21:16 One Page Memory wrote:
Ok, I can't understand why almost all of you think Bisu has booked his place in the final.
I'll vote Xellos and climb 50+ more spots in the LB Rank.
so you don't understand that not every series has the same probability in their outcomes or what
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CruiseR
Poland4014 Posts
"easy and fast 3-0 for savior" ahahaha gg guys ;p
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On November 08 2007 21:53 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2007 21:16 One Page Memory wrote:
Ok, I can't understand why almost all of you think Bisu has booked his place in the final.
I'll vote Xellos and climb 50+ more spots in the LB Rank. so you don't understand that not every series has the same probability in their outcomes or what
Just for the protocol, what is the probability Xellos to beat Bisu according to you?
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
About 30%. Xellos has a TvP momentum after his victory vs Nal_Ra and PvT is very unpredictable nowadays. Still, I'm rooting for Bisu given the fact that Xellos has the same style as Hwasin, but is not just as good as him, and it's bo5.
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Im just laughing off my ass.. All these hardcore savior fans who said savior is going to be the next Boxer or NaDa .. guys..
Thats exactly why savior and bisu are still lightyears away from gamers like naDa and boxer in terms of success and pure force.. For sure right now nada is a shadow of himself..
but just see how fast savior simply begins to not win anymore..
Lets see how long bisu can be the dominant force..
gonna take a while for him to be around at the top as long as the true legend ( nada,boxer,oov )
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.........................
:OOOO
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Savior has 3 MSL victories, 1 OSL victory and 6 total StarLeague final appearances and absolutely outstanding career record win percentages, surpassing both Boxer and oov in terms of achievements.
How that fuck that is not elite? I don't really understand what you're talking about, 2 years of dominating the individual leagues is quite a large portion of progaming's total lifespan of 8 years.
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What the fucking fuck happened? ONE freaking day, one day, I don't skip classes to watch VODs and this is what happens. Sheesh.
Though I am a Terran player, sAviOr is top 3 in my personal all time favourites. If Mind were a Terran that will establish dominance from now on, I'd be glad he won. However it's a certain fact that he will not do ANYTHING amazing or respect-worthy, so why THE FUCK did he have to beat sAviOr????
T.T
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On November 08 2007 22:28 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
Im just laughing off my ass.. All these hardcore savior fans who said savior is going to be the next Boxer or NaDa .. guys..
Thats exactly why savior and bisu are still lightyears away from gamers like naDa and boxer in terms of success and pure force.. For sure right now nada is a shadow of himself..
but just see how fast savior simply begins to not win anymore..
Lets see how long bisu can be the dominant force..
gonna take a while for him to be around at the top as long as the true legend ( nada,boxer,oov )
lol
games are lot more competitive now then before
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who gives a fuck about nada in this thread
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On November 08 2007 22:43 Jathin wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 08 2007 22:28 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
Im just laughing off my ass.. All these hardcore savior fans who said savior is going to be the next Boxer or NaDa .. guys..
Thats exactly why savior and bisu are still lightyears away from gamers like naDa and boxer in terms of success and pure force.. For sure right now nada is a shadow of himself..
but just see how fast savior simply begins to not win anymore..
Lets see how long bisu can be the dominant force..
gonna take a while for him to be around at the top as long as the true legend ( nada,boxer,oov )
They don't need to be in pro-gaming for as long as Boxer/NaDa to prove that they are consistent. They currently ARE dominant forces, and more importantly they HAVE shown their longevity. Keep in mind that Savior lost in the semi-finals. Boxer/NaDa have lost before the semi-finals many times in their careers. Savior and Bisu are two of the most consistent players around. Even if they don't qualify for an OSL or MSL (which hasn't even happened yet), they're still consistent and pop up with regularity. Until one of them drops off the face of the earth (like Midas), you can't really say that they aren't comparable to the other consistent vets like Nada/Boxer.
WORD.
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OMGGG LOL MIND AT FINALS HOLY FUCK LOL LOL LOL SAVIOR IS A CRAP.
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On November 08 2007 22:48 minus_human wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2007 22:43 Jathin wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 08 2007 22:28 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
Im just laughing off my ass.. All these hardcore savior fans who said savior is going to be the next Boxer or NaDa .. guys..
Thats exactly why savior and bisu are still lightyears away from gamers like naDa and boxer in terms of success and pure force.. For sure right now nada is a shadow of himself..
but just see how fast savior simply begins to not win anymore..
Lets see how long bisu can be the dominant force..
gonna take a while for him to be around at the top as long as the true legend ( nada,boxer,oov )
They don't need to be in pro-gaming for as long as Boxer/NaDa to prove that they are consistent. They currently ARE dominant forces, and more importantly they HAVE shown their longevity. Keep in mind that Savior lost in the semi-finals. Boxer/NaDa have lost before the semi-finals many times in their careers. Savior and Bisu are two of the most consistent players around. Even if they don't qualify for an OSL or MSL (which hasn't even happened yet), they're still consistent and pop up with regularity. Until one of them drops off the face of the earth (like Midas), you can't really say that they aren't comparable to the other consistent vets like Nada/Boxer. WORD.
Tell Savior or Bisu to come back 6 OSL finals later and then we'll talk
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Braavos36375 Posts
On November 08 2007 22:28 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
Im just laughing off my ass.. All these hardcore savior fans who said savior is going to be the next Boxer or NaDa .. guys..
Thats exactly why savior and bisu are still lightyears away from gamers like naDa and boxer in terms of success and pure force.. For sure right now nada is a shadow of himself..
but just see how fast savior simply begins to not win anymore..
Lets see how long bisu can be the dominant force..
gonna take a while for him to be around at the top as long as the true legend ( nada,boxer,oov )
Savior's there already. None of those players you listed dominated for a period longer than Savior has. He dominated for two years and has 4 major titles. That's more than Boxer and one less than oov, and his came in an era of higher overall level of competition. As much as I respect Nada's achievements, his 3 MSL victories are not nearly as impressive as Savior's 3.
Bisu I agree is not there yet, but "lightyears away" is an overstatement.
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On November 08 2007 22:28 MaGic~PhiL wrote:Im just laughing off my ass.. All these hardcore  sAviOr fans who said sAviOr is going to be the next  BoxeR or NaDa .. guys.. Thats exactly why sAviOr and  Bisu are still lightyears away from gamers like NaDa and BoxeR in terms of success and pure force.. For sure right now NaDa is a shadow of himself.. but just see how fast sAviOr simply begins to not win anymore.. Lets see how long Bisu can be the dominant force.. gonna take a while for him to be around at the top as long as the true legend ( NaDa, BoxeR, Oov )
very funny
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On November 08 2007 21:10 wliu2385 wrote:Even if Savior never wins another game in his life I'll still auto vote him every time. Show nested quote +On November 08 2007 21:05 ambit!ous1 wrote:
Funny thread from fomos " 김택용이 죽이고 이성은이 판 무덤에 박성균이 밀어넣다 "
" Bisu kills Savior, FireBathero digs a hole for Savior and Mind buries Savior " Also, what did PJ do?
PJ will talk at the ceremony about Savior.
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Hungary11291 Posts
MSL: Bisu beating Xellos -> Bisu vs. Light
OSL: Light beating Iris (possible), Bisu beating Shudder. -> Bisu vs. Light
pattern anyone?
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Like I predicted. Thanks Mind!
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*slowly claps.... then falls over from the shock*
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United States20661 Posts
AHAHHHA
DREADFUL FBH FEELING WAS RIGHT D:
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the problem is that T is Imba
we almost dont see new zerg and protoss players going to the top
but a lot of T players come from nothing and make to the semis, etc
t_T
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On November 08 2007 23:06 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2007 22:28 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
Im just laughing off my ass.. All these hardcore savior fans who said savior is going to be the next Boxer or NaDa .. guys..
Thats exactly why savior and bisu are still lightyears away from gamers like naDa and boxer in terms of success and pure force.. For sure right now nada is a shadow of himself..
but just see how fast savior simply begins to not win anymore..
Lets see how long bisu can be the dominant force..
gonna take a while for him to be around at the top as long as the true legend ( nada,boxer,oov )
Savior\'s there already. None of those players you listed dominated for a period longer than Savior has. He dominated for two years and has 4 major titles. That\'s more than Boxer and one less than oov, and his came in an era of higher overall level of competition. As much as I respect Nada\'s achievements, his 3 MSL victories are not nearly as impressive as Savior\'s 3. Bisu I agree is not there yet, but \"lightyears away\" is an overstatement.
I hate arguing with fanboys, becouse I consifer myself one, but. Saying that Savior dominated for 2 years is a little bit too much.You could say that he dominated MSL,thats correct, but if my memory is correct a the time Savior was winning pringles, other guys were winning OSLs. Casy and Nada I think. Thats not a domination IMO. A bit later he was really domimant for several months, but two years is a bit too much.
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Now I want to beat savior too plz!
No honestly this is very very sad. Was so looking forward to a legendary Savior/Bisu rematch.
I only can hope that after some time a newborn savior will rise again.
(maybe he will switch to terran now thinking "this race is just imba" lol)
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On November 09 2007 00:02 mdb wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2007 23:06 Hot_Bid wrote:On November 08 2007 22:28 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
Im just laughing off my ass.. All these hardcore savior fans who said savior is going to be the next Boxer or NaDa .. guys..
Thats exactly why savior and bisu are still lightyears away from gamers like naDa and boxer in terms of success and pure force.. For sure right now nada is a shadow of himself..
but just see how fast savior simply begins to not win anymore..
Lets see how long bisu can be the dominant force..
gonna take a while for him to be around at the top as long as the true legend ( nada,boxer,oov )
Savior\'s there already. None of those players you listed dominated for a period longer than Savior has. He dominated for two years and has 4 major titles. That\'s more than Boxer and one less than oov, and his came in an era of higher overall level of competition. As much as I respect Nada\'s achievements, his 3 MSL victories are not nearly as impressive as Savior\'s 3. Bisu I agree is not there yet, but \"lightyears away\" is an overstatement. I hate arguing with fanboys, becouse I consifer myself one, but. Saying that Savior dominated for 2 years is a little bit too much.You could say that he dominated MSL,thats correct, but if my memory is correct a the time Savior was winning pringles, other guys were winning OSLs. Casy and Nada I think. Thats not a domination IMO. A bit later he was really domimant for several months, but two years is a bit too much.
Exactly. When savior was IPX nobody really took notice of him even, it was only when he beat Boxer 3-0 in the superfight that people started to take notice of me. Plus an MSL win is not a major title, it is a minor title. Especially in Korea, an OSL win is worth far more than an MSL win. It's much easier to be eliminated in the OSL compared to the MSL (double elimination). MSL has second chances, the OSL doesn't. Its evident that its much harder to dominate in the OSL because so few players have one multiple titles, and only Boxer has won back to back titles. In the MSL, we have 2 players with 3 consecutive titles, and 2 players with back to back titles. Why couldn't they do this in the OSL? It's because its not that easy to do in the OSL.
MSL wins don't mean nearly as much as an OSL.
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United States20661 Posts
On November 09 2007 00:09 himurakenshin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2007 00:02 mdb wrote:On November 08 2007 23:06 Hot_Bid wrote:On November 08 2007 22:28 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
Im just laughing off my ass.. All these hardcore savior fans who said savior is going to be the next Boxer or NaDa .. guys..
Thats exactly why savior and bisu are still lightyears away from gamers like naDa and boxer in terms of success and pure force.. For sure right now nada is a shadow of himself..
but just see how fast savior simply begins to not win anymore..
Lets see how long bisu can be the dominant force..
gonna take a while for him to be around at the top as long as the true legend ( nada,boxer,oov )
Savior\'s there already. None of those players you listed dominated for a period longer than Savior has. He dominated for two years and has 4 major titles. That\'s more than Boxer and one less than oov, and his came in an era of higher overall level of competition. As much as I respect Nada\'s achievements, his 3 MSL victories are not nearly as impressive as Savior\'s 3. Bisu I agree is not there yet, but \"lightyears away\" is an overstatement. I hate arguing with fanboys, becouse I consifer myself one, but. Saying that Savior dominated for 2 years is a little bit too much.You could say that he dominated MSL,thats correct, but if my memory is correct a the time Savior was winning pringles, other guys were winning OSLs. Casy and Nada I think. Thats not a domination IMO. A bit later he was really domimant for several months, but two years is a bit too much. Exactly. When savior was IPX nobody really took notice of him even, it was only when he beat Boxer 3-0 in the superfight that people started to take notice of me. Plus an MSL win is not a major title, it is a minor title. Especially in Korea, an OSL win is worth far more than an MSL win. It's much easier to be eliminated in the OSL compared to the MSL (double elimination). MSL has second chances, the OSL doesn't. Its evident that its much harder to dominate in the OSL because so few players have one multiple titles, and only Boxer has won back to back titles. In the MSL, we have 2 players with 3 consecutive titles, and 2 players with back to back titles. Why couldn't they do this in the OSL? It's because its not that easy to do in the OSL. MSL wins don't mean nearly as much as an OSL.
Wait, you = IPXZerg?
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MSL has had better games and better players for a while though. Fuck prestige.
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On November 09 2007 00:02 Kacas wrote:
the problem is that T is Imba
we almost dont see new zerg and protoss players going to the top
but a lot of T players come from nothing and make to the semis, etc
t_T
Where is my clone
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On November 09 2007 00:15 Last Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2007 00:09 himurakenshin wrote:On November 09 2007 00:02 mdb wrote:On November 08 2007 23:06 Hot_Bid wrote:On November 08 2007 22:28 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
Im just laughing off my ass.. All these hardcore savior fans who said savior is going to be the next Boxer or NaDa .. guys..
Thats exactly why savior and bisu are still lightyears away from gamers like naDa and boxer in terms of success and pure force.. For sure right now nada is a shadow of himself..
but just see how fast savior simply begins to not win anymore..
Lets see how long bisu can be the dominant force..
gonna take a while for him to be around at the top as long as the true legend ( nada,boxer,oov )
Savior\'s there already. None of those players you listed dominated for a period longer than Savior has. He dominated for two years and has 4 major titles. That\'s more than Boxer and one less than oov, and his came in an era of higher overall level of competition. As much as I respect Nada\'s achievements, his 3 MSL victories are not nearly as impressive as Savior\'s 3. Bisu I agree is not there yet, but \"lightyears away\" is an overstatement. I hate arguing with fanboys, becouse I consifer myself one, but. Saying that Savior dominated for 2 years is a little bit too much.You could say that he dominated MSL,thats correct, but if my memory is correct a the time Savior was winning pringles, other guys were winning OSLs. Casy and Nada I think. Thats not a domination IMO. A bit later he was really domimant for several months, but two years is a bit too much. Exactly. When savior was IPX nobody really took notice of him even, it was only when he beat Boxer 3-0 in the superfight that people started to take notice of me. Plus an MSL win is not a major title, it is a minor title. Especially in Korea, an OSL win is worth far more than an MSL win. It's much easier to be eliminated in the OSL compared to the MSL (double elimination). MSL has second chances, the OSL doesn't. Its evident that its much harder to dominate in the OSL because so few players have one multiple titles, and only Boxer has won back to back titles. In the MSL, we have 2 players with 3 consecutive titles, and 2 players with back to back titles. Why couldn't they do this in the OSL? It's because its not that easy to do in the OSL. MSL wins don't mean nearly as much as an OSL. Wait, you = IPXZerg?
Didn't know Savior spoke English haha
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On November 09 2007 00:02 mdb wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2007 23:06 Hot_Bid wrote:On November 08 2007 22:28 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
Im just laughing off my ass.. All these hardcore savior fans who said savior is going to be the next Boxer or NaDa .. guys..
Thats exactly why savior and bisu are still lightyears away from gamers like naDa and boxer in terms of success and pure force.. For sure right now nada is a shadow of himself..
but just see how fast savior simply begins to not win anymore..
Lets see how long bisu can be the dominant force..
gonna take a while for him to be around at the top as long as the true legend ( nada,boxer,oov )
Savior\'s there already. None of those players you listed dominated for a period longer than Savior has. He dominated for two years and has 4 major titles. That\'s more than Boxer and one less than oov, and his came in an era of higher overall level of competition. As much as I respect Nada\'s achievements, his 3 MSL victories are not nearly as impressive as Savior\'s 3. Bisu I agree is not there yet, but \"lightyears away\" is an overstatement. I hate arguing with fanboys, becouse I consifer myself one, but. Saying that Savior dominated for 2 years is a little bit too much.You could say that he dominated MSL,thats correct, but if my memory is correct a the time Savior was winning pringles, other guys were winning OSLs. Casy and Nada I think. Thats not a domination IMO. A bit later he was really domimant for several months, but two years is a bit too much.
There was a time when Savior seemed and basically was unbeatable.
He was not winning EVERYTHING so he was not dominant yeah?
I think you mistake dominance for godlikeness there.
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United States10774 Posts
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On November 09 2007 00:09 himurakenshin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2007 00:02 mdb wrote:On November 08 2007 23:06 Hot_Bid wrote:On November 08 2007 22:28 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
Im just laughing off my ass.. All these hardcore savior fans who said savior is going to be the next Boxer or NaDa .. guys..
Thats exactly why savior and bisu are still lightyears away from gamers like naDa and boxer in terms of success and pure force.. For sure right now nada is a shadow of himself..
but just see how fast savior simply begins to not win anymore..
Lets see how long bisu can be the dominant force..
gonna take a while for him to be around at the top as long as the true legend ( nada,boxer,oov )
Savior\'s there already. None of those players you listed dominated for a period longer than Savior has. He dominated for two years and has 4 major titles. That\'s more than Boxer and one less than oov, and his came in an era of higher overall level of competition. As much as I respect Nada\'s achievements, his 3 MSL victories are not nearly as impressive as Savior\'s 3. Bisu I agree is not there yet, but \"lightyears away\" is an overstatement. I hate arguing with fanboys, becouse I consifer myself one, but. Saying that Savior dominated for 2 years is a little bit too much.You could say that he dominated MSL,thats correct, but if my memory is correct a the time Savior was winning pringles, other guys were winning OSLs. Casy and Nada I think. Thats not a domination IMO. A bit later he was really domimant for several months, but two years is a bit too much. Exactly. When savior was IPX nobody really took notice of him even, it was only when he beat Boxer 3-0 in the superfight that people started to take notice of me. Plus an MSL win is not a major title, it is a minor title. Especially in Korea, an OSL win is worth far more than an MSL win. It's much easier to be eliminated in the OSL compared to the MSL (double elimination). MSL has second chances, the OSL doesn't. Its evident that its much harder to dominate in the OSL because so few players have one multiple titles, and only Boxer has won back to back titles. In the MSL, we have 2 players with 3 consecutive titles, and 2 players with back to back titles. Why couldn't they do this in the OSL? It's because its not that easy to do in the OSL. MSL wins don't mean nearly as much as an OSL.
Sigh, whenever Savior loses at something the excuses come flying. Now the MSL is worthless? If Savior was still in it would you be saying the same thing?
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On November 09 2007 00:09 himurakenshin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2007 00:02 mdb wrote:On November 08 2007 23:06 Hot_Bid wrote:On November 08 2007 22:28 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
Im just laughing off my ass.. All these hardcore savior fans who said savior is going to be the next Boxer or NaDa .. guys..
Thats exactly why savior and bisu are still lightyears away from gamers like naDa and boxer in terms of success and pure force.. For sure right now nada is a shadow of himself..
but just see how fast savior simply begins to not win anymore..
Lets see how long bisu can be the dominant force..
gonna take a while for him to be around at the top as long as the true legend ( nada,boxer,oov )
Savior\'s there already. None of those players you listed dominated for a period longer than Savior has. He dominated for two years and has 4 major titles. That\'s more than Boxer and one less than oov, and his came in an era of higher overall level of competition. As much as I respect Nada\'s achievements, his 3 MSL victories are not nearly as impressive as Savior\'s 3. Bisu I agree is not there yet, but \"lightyears away\" is an overstatement. I hate arguing with fanboys, becouse I consifer myself one, but. Saying that Savior dominated for 2 years is a little bit too much.You could say that he dominated MSL,thats correct, but if my memory is correct a the time Savior was winning pringles, other guys were winning OSLs. Casy and Nada I think. Thats not a domination IMO. A bit later he was really domimant for several months, but two years is a bit too much. Exactly. When savior was IPX nobody really took notice of him even, it was only when he beat Boxer 3-0 in the superfight that people started to take notice of me. Plus an MSL win is not a major title, it is a minor title. Especially in Korea, an OSL win is worth far more than an MSL win. It's much easier to be eliminated in the OSL compared to the MSL (double elimination). MSL has second chances, the OSL doesn't. Its evident that its much harder to dominate in the OSL because so few players have one multiple titles, and only Boxer has won back to back titles. In the MSL, we have 2 players with 3 consecutive titles, and 2 players with back to back titles. Why couldn't they do this in the OSL? It's because its not that easy to do in the OSL. MSL wins don't mean nearly as much as an OSL.
Your logic is inherently flawed. MSL produces consistent champions and it's format enables the best player to take consecutive wins, whereas OSL has a different winner every time, making it possible for totally random players to break through. I mean, GGPlay wut? He DOES have godsend ZvT, but his ZvP is pathetic, and Bisu proved it only recently. GGPlay is not the bonjwa, yet he has the most recent OSL title. Bisu, on the other hand, was taken out of the OSL losing 0-2 to Flash who clearly is not a champion (at least not for the moment) just due to a small number of games played and some horrid luck. The fact that the same people win consecutive MSL's hints us to that it's format encourages the best players to win, whereas OSL's results hint to it's total randomness. I'd say for a real power display, MSL victory is more important than OSL one, and OSL's prestige is only due to its historical value.
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United States10774 Posts
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WHAT THE ....???
Come on now, is this a joke ? Someone pinch me.
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I like how Mind was like "Holy crap, did I just do that? Am I dreaming?" and then he realized he wasn't and he gives an almost imperceptible smile.
Have to give credit to him, he played pretty well in the three games he won.
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I wake up and see that Savior lost.......I still cant believe it...
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I think Etter's poem gave Mind that extra incentive to win. LEVEL UP!!
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Damn now we r going to have a TvT finall :D
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what the fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck?
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On November 09 2007 00:43 clazziquai wrote:
I wake up and see that Savior lost.......I still cant believe it...
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On November 09 2007 00:59 noobienoob wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2007 00:43 clazziquai wrote:
I wake up and see that Savior lost.......I still cant believe it...
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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Braavos36375 Posts
On November 09 2007 00:09 himurakenshin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2007 00:02 mdb wrote:On November 08 2007 23:06 Hot_Bid wrote:On November 08 2007 22:28 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
Im just laughing off my ass.. All these hardcore savior fans who said savior is going to be the next Boxer or NaDa .. guys..
Thats exactly why savior and bisu are still lightyears away from gamers like naDa and boxer in terms of success and pure force.. For sure right now nada is a shadow of himself..
but just see how fast savior simply begins to not win anymore..
Lets see how long bisu can be the dominant force..
gonna take a while for him to be around at the top as long as the true legend ( nada,boxer,oov )
Savior\'s there already. None of those players you listed dominated for a period longer than Savior has. He dominated for two years and has 4 major titles. That\'s more than Boxer and one less than oov, and his came in an era of higher overall level of competition. As much as I respect Nada\'s achievements, his 3 MSL victories are not nearly as impressive as Savior\'s 3. Bisu I agree is not there yet, but \"lightyears away\" is an overstatement. I hate arguing with fanboys, becouse I consifer myself one, but. Saying that Savior dominated for 2 years is a little bit too much.You could say that he dominated MSL,thats correct, but if my memory is correct a the time Savior was winning pringles, other guys were winning OSLs. Casy and Nada I think. Thats not a domination IMO. A bit later he was really domimant for several months, but two years is a bit too much. Exactly. When savior was IPX nobody really took notice of him even, it was only when he beat Boxer 3-0 in the superfight that people started to take notice of me. Plus an MSL win is not a major title, it is a minor title. Especially in Korea, an OSL win is worth far more than an MSL win. It's much easier to be eliminated in the OSL compared to the MSL (double elimination). MSL has second chances, the OSL doesn't. Its evident that its much harder to dominate in the OSL because so few players have one multiple titles, and only Boxer has won back to back titles. In the MSL, we have 2 players with 3 consecutive titles, and 2 players with back to back titles. Why couldn't they do this in the OSL? It's because its not that easy to do in the OSL. MSL wins don't mean nearly as much as an OSL.
On November 09 2007 00:23 BluzMan wrote:
Your logic is inherently flawed. MSL produces consistent champions and it's format enables the best player to take consecutive wins, whereas OSL has a different winner every time, making it possible for totally random players to break through. I mean, GGPlay wut? He DOES have godsend ZvT, but his ZvP is pathetic, and Bisu proved it only recently. GGPlay is not the bonjwa, yet he has the most recent OSL title. Bisu, on the other hand, was taken out of the OSL losing 0-2 to Flash who clearly is not a champion (at least not for the moment) just due to a small number of games played and some horrid luck. The fact that the same people win consecutive MSL's hints us to that it's format encourages the best players to win, whereas OSL's results hint to it's total randomness. I'd say for a real power display, MSL victory is more important than OSL one, and OSL's prestige is only due to its historical value.
Good response.
I'd also like to add that people definitely took notice of Savior before the superfight with Boxer.
And that Proleague and the increased competition level makes it infinitely harder to win both leagues simultaneously. You simply don't have enough hours during the day to practice for everything. I think it's very impressive Stork made semis of OSL, Finals of MSL, and his Proleague team won the whole thing. That's truly amazing.
You can't compare the difficulty players face now and back then. Back then, "dominant" meant something different, because it was much easier to be dominant. You don't have as many proleague games, you don't have a faceless army of new players with great mechanics and 3x the practice time you do because you are active in all three leagues. It's a different, more difficult game.
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On November 09 2007 00:43 clazziquai wrote:
I wake up and see that Savior lost.......I still cant believe it...
I couldn't believe it either!
What the fuck??!!
On November 08 2007 08:36 KizZBG wrote:
OMG, imagine Mind pulling a fbh!
won't happen fo sho. :p
I think we just jinxed Savior, haha.
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To the people basing skill purely off of KeSPA rankings - KeSPA is updated once a month. Mind does not play that many games - MSL is the only thing he has. He beat Oov, great. He beat Mania, great. Neither of which should give him a large boost in KeSPA - they aren't that great players. He's only recently become fielded more often for WeMade in the Proleague, and that's going to stop as he has to practice for the MSL finals.
Now he beats sAviOr and I predict a 2-digit KeSPA rise from Mind for December.
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yeah, a third/fourth place victory is totally indicative of failure
what the fuck is wrong with all of you faggots
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On November 09 2007 00:15 Last Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2007 00:09 himurakenshin wrote:On November 09 2007 00:02 mdb wrote:On November 08 2007 23:06 Hot_Bid wrote:On November 08 2007 22:28 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
Im just laughing off my ass.. All these hardcore savior fans who said savior is going to be the next Boxer or NaDa .. guys..
Thats exactly why savior and bisu are still lightyears away from gamers like naDa and boxer in terms of success and pure force.. For sure right now nada is a shadow of himself..
but just see how fast savior simply begins to not win anymore..
Lets see how long bisu can be the dominant force..
gonna take a while for him to be around at the top as long as the true legend ( nada,boxer,oov )
Savior\'s there already. None of those players you listed dominated for a period longer than Savior has. He dominated for two years and has 4 major titles. That\'s more than Boxer and one less than oov, and his came in an era of higher overall level of competition. As much as I respect Nada\'s achievements, his 3 MSL victories are not nearly as impressive as Savior\'s 3. Bisu I agree is not there yet, but \"lightyears away\" is an overstatement. I hate arguing with fanboys, becouse I consifer myself one, but. Saying that Savior dominated for 2 years is a little bit too much.You could say that he dominated MSL,thats correct, but if my memory is correct a the time Savior was winning pringles, other guys were winning OSLs. Casy and Nada I think. Thats not a domination IMO. A bit later he was really domimant for several months, but two years is a bit too much. Exactly. When savior was IPX nobody really took notice of him even, it was only when he beat Boxer 3-0 in the superfight that people started to take notice of me. Plus an MSL win is not a major title, it is a minor title. Especially in Korea, an OSL win is worth far more than an MSL win. It's much easier to be eliminated in the OSL compared to the MSL (double elimination). MSL has second chances, the OSL doesn't. Its evident that its much harder to dominate in the OSL because so few players have one multiple titles, and only Boxer has won back to back titles. In the MSL, we have 2 players with 3 consecutive titles, and 2 players with back to back titles. Why couldn't they do this in the OSL? It's because its not that easy to do in the OSL. MSL wins don't mean nearly as much as an OSL. Wait, you = IPXZerg?
oh shittt what the hell -_-;;;;;
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This dissapoints me greatly. Who can I turn to now, when all the zergs are gone?
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On November 09 2007 01:06 Zanno wrote:
yeah, a third/fourth place victory is totally indicative of failure
what the fuck is wrong with all of you faggots I just wanted to see a Bisu vs. Savior rematch, or even CJ vs. CJ in the finals.
Oh well. I don't even care who wins this MSL anymore.. lol
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On November 09 2007 01:02 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2007 00:09 himurakenshin wrote:On November 09 2007 00:02 mdb wrote:On November 08 2007 23:06 Hot_Bid wrote:On November 08 2007 22:28 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
Im just laughing off my ass.. All these hardcore savior fans who said savior is going to be the next Boxer or NaDa .. guys..
Thats exactly why savior and bisu are still lightyears away from gamers like naDa and boxer in terms of success and pure force.. For sure right now nada is a shadow of himself..
but just see how fast savior simply begins to not win anymore..
Lets see how long bisu can be the dominant force..
gonna take a while for him to be around at the top as long as the true legend ( nada,boxer,oov )
Savior\'s there already. None of those players you listed dominated for a period longer than Savior has. He dominated for two years and has 4 major titles. That\'s more than Boxer and one less than oov, and his came in an era of higher overall level of competition. As much as I respect Nada\'s achievements, his 3 MSL victories are not nearly as impressive as Savior\'s 3. Bisu I agree is not there yet, but \"lightyears away\" is an overstatement. I hate arguing with fanboys, becouse I consifer myself one, but. Saying that Savior dominated for 2 years is a little bit too much.You could say that he dominated MSL,thats correct, but if my memory is correct a the time Savior was winning pringles, other guys were winning OSLs. Casy and Nada I think. Thats not a domination IMO. A bit later he was really domimant for several months, but two years is a bit too much. Exactly. When savior was IPX nobody really took notice of him even, it was only when he beat Boxer 3-0 in the superfight that people started to take notice of me. Plus an MSL win is not a major title, it is a minor title. Especially in Korea, an OSL win is worth far more than an MSL win. It's much easier to be eliminated in the OSL compared to the MSL (double elimination). MSL has second chances, the OSL doesn't. Its evident that its much harder to dominate in the OSL because so few players have one multiple titles, and only Boxer has won back to back titles. In the MSL, we have 2 players with 3 consecutive titles, and 2 players with back to back titles. Why couldn't they do this in the OSL? It's because its not that easy to do in the OSL. MSL wins don't mean nearly as much as an OSL. Show nested quote +On November 09 2007 00:23 BluzMan wrote:
Your logic is inherently flawed. MSL produces consistent champions and it's format enables the best player to take consecutive wins, whereas OSL has a different winner every time, making it possible for totally random players to break through. I mean, GGPlay wut? He DOES have godsend ZvT, but his ZvP is pathetic, and Bisu proved it only recently. GGPlay is not the bonjwa, yet he has the most recent OSL title. Bisu, on the other hand, was taken out of the OSL losing 0-2 to Flash who clearly is not a champion (at least not for the moment) just due to a small number of games played and some horrid luck. The fact that the same people win consecutive MSL's hints us to that it's format encourages the best players to win, whereas OSL's results hint to it's total randomness. I'd say for a real power display, MSL victory is more important than OSL one, and OSL's prestige is only due to its historical value. Good response. I'd also like to add that people definitely took notice of Savior before the superfight with Boxer. And that Proleague and the increased competition level makes it infinitely harder to win both leagues simultaneously. You simply don't have enough hours during the day to practice for everything. I think it's very impressive Stork made semis of OSL, Finals of MSL, and his Proleague team won the whole thing. That's truly amazing. You can't compare the difficulty players face now and back then. Back then, "dominant" meant something different, because it was much easier to be dominant. You don't have as many proleague games, you don't have a faceless army of new players with great mechanics and 3x the practice time you do because you are active in all three leagues. It's a different, more difficult game.
I agree, but it still shows the fact that winning an OSL back-to-back its really hard. If Bisu couldn't beat a cheezing kid in the quarters (I think) then he really doesn't deserve to win the OSL. I'm not saying that the OSL winner's deserve to win either, but it's more like, you may get lucky once, but not twice. You won't get your "second chance" in the OSL. To win two OSL's in a row, you have to be the fuckin bonjwa no doubt.
Winning the MSL twice doesn't mean anything, Bisu is still getting thrown around by amature players like Flash. If he had won two OSLs back-to-back he would be like Boxer in 2001; untouchable.
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Doesn't mean anything?
Way to shit all over the accomplishment.
OSL is simply more difficult to win due to its format. Being the superior player and losing a BO3 is easy. Being the superior player and losing a BO5 is significantly harder, (not impossible though).
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On November 09 2007 01:06 Zanno wrote:
yeah, a third/fourth place victory is totally indicative of failure
what the fuck is wrong with all of you faggots
Looks like somebody is looking for a ban.
Savior has been a longtime MSL finalist. Not only is he not making it to the finals, he has lost to a newcomer attending his first MSL ever. A newcomer who has never once been mentioned for having any TvZ skills.
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yakii
Korea (South)1448 Posts
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So sad TT
If savior couldn't win this series then its extremely unlikely that he's going to make it much further in the OSL either with all the killer terrans left there. I just hope bisu beats ddr terran and then stomps this noob so that the MSL can maintain its run of non-terrans winning (currently at 7 straight!)
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OMG SAVIOR ? What`s wrong with u ? COME ON win at least OSL !
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
apparently a larger sample size is now 'easier to win.' perhaps easier for the better player.
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dang every time i skip watching the games live theres a huge upset.. hope bisu doesn't lose to xellos because tvt finals would be lame
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savior is my favorite player and i just feel so terrible for him. i am not heartbroken, but just a little bit swept away. same feelings after pj beat him.
its because we all expect savior to win everytime. i look forward to his games in the osl, win or lose
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no bisu vs savior match?? i cant believe it so long i wait for the finals between savior and bisu.. and now the Maestranother o fells in an unexpected way.... another dissapointment from the kleague =(
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I NO LONGER BELIEVE IN SAVIOR
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If sAviOr fails in the OSL StarCraft is dead to me.
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United States22883 Posts
On November 09 2007 01:03 Gaetele wrote:
To the people basing skill purely off of KeSPA rankings - KeSPA is updated once a month. Mind does not play that many games - MSL is the only thing he has. He beat Oov, great. He beat Mania, great. Neither of which should give him a large boost in KeSPA - they aren't that great players. He's only recently become fielded more often for WeMade in the Proleague, and that's going to stop as he has to practice for the MSL finals.
Now he beats sAviOr and I predict a 2-digit KeSPA rise from Mind for December. Right. Someone else in this thread called KeSPA an objective skill ranking and that's simply not true. Skill is completely subjective. It's an objective performance ranking and Mind's past performances are far, far worse than sAviOr's, but everyone that watched knows Mind was the better player today and I think it's unfair to credit it all to savior's mistakes. He definitely played poorly, but it wasn't like 4/5 were close games. Mind was pretty exceptional... except for the occasional idle worker. ._.
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arrgh. Fuck you mind. Fuck you, all terrans. Savior vs. Bisu final would have been so epic. But now it will never be...
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!@#$ noname-garbage terrans
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u gotta skate8152 Posts
No Bisu vs Savior finals.
FUCKKKKKKKK
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On November 09 2007 01:59 KizZBG wrote:No Bisu vs Savior finals. FUCKKKKKKKK
yea....I think savior was practicing for P exclusively, and thats why he lost.
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u gotta skate8152 Posts
I want Xellos to win but don't want TvT finals. arrrghhh
edit: Actually I don't mind that much if Bisu beats Xellos.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Mind played so good on blue storm
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i think its safe to say that FBH and bisu killed the almighty savior we once knew
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Mind responded so well to whatever savior did. Thats usualy what I like about saviors play and now it was the other way around :S Guess Savior didnt deserve to win this time. Hope he does better in OSL. Like someone said, this MSL is of no interest to me any more
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can somebody give us the liquibet voting distribution for this match
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A real upset... Really sucks
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I thought that last game was very well played by Mind, as he kept up the aggressive front. All savior could do was defend....pity for Savior though. Ah wells....
P.S. Does anyone else see a resemblance?
+ Show Spoiler +
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saddest day ever for every fans of savior
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HonestTea
5007 Posts
Fucking Inspector Gadget Terran
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Haha, the libiquet is rly funny. lol @sAviOr fanboys, the guy is just overrated today.
Now pls Bisu, win, I don't want TvT again.
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On November 08 2007 10:26 semioldguy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2007 10:04 hwasingodlysense wrote:
mind for the royal road.
and a fantastic 3-0 against savior. You should look two posts above yours ... and 3-0 in favor of Mind is totally not going to happen. If it does happen tonight, I'll post a video of me eating my own sock.
.....hehe its your turn now!!!
...savior ... i hate and love you ...
now i'm routing for bisu going 6-0 >_>
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I think Mind played very decent. The two games savior won were crappy. Failed proxy and not so smart attack by mind, which lost him the game. Probably not savior's best performance but as I said, Mind was solid.
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Stop downplaying Saviors accomplishments because he's fallen into a slump. Yea, it looks like his reign is not only over but dead. But he's still making quarters and semis regularly and with his ridiculous domination from Nov 05 to March 07 he is easily up there with Boxer, Nada, and Oov.
He defined an era, changed ZvT forever, spearheaded a period of Zerg dominance- before Savior there had never even been a ZvZ finals! and made what, 5 MSL finals in a row? And if you think the MSL is "worthless" you're just a troll and can fuck off, looks like the MSL has had the better competition and quality for a while, OSL's prestige is for historical reasons, and OSL is ridiculously luck based... half the OSL winners don't ever win anything else- Casy? GGplay? Anytime? Xellos? All solid players, none of them true championship material. Is anyone seriously for example trying to contest that GGplay with his recent OSL win is a more accomplished player and a truer champion than Bisu who got knocked out due to some cheesy bullshit and bad luck?
Also you have to consider that competition is MUCH tougher these days, there are so many random players with solid mechanical skills who can practice twice as much as you, the competition is so much fiercer than in Boxer's days, and the knowledge of the game has spread much further and become more formalized.. less room for innovation. In fact I'm holding out for Bisu because otherwise the concept of even having a "bonjwa" may be over for good and we might just have some solid players who exchange wins constantly. That would be sad.
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Yeah, I bet the infamous "OSL slump" is just because many of the OSL winners weren't true championship material in the first place. They just go on a short hot-streak and a few lucky breaks and then it wears off after that. Savior is definitely up there with his MSL wins, and I hope he comes back in the future.
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HonestTea
5007 Posts
If I were to rate levels of dominance:
1. oov
2. Savior
3. Nada
4. Boxer
5. Bisu
... although I'm hesitant to apply the "dominant" label to Boxer.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Boxer was never dominant, he was art. =)
Or, rephrased, Savior and the like dominated other players, Boxer dominated the game.
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Boxer changed the whole Starcraft paradigm- the mentality with which players approached the game- and he blew away boundaries and opened up huge areas of the game for further exploration and innovation.
He was never as dominating a player as Nada or Savior even at his prime, but he was always a more important player.
The closest player to Boxer (albeit weaker) in my opinion is Nal_Ra, not Nada or Oov.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On November 09 2007 05:47 HonestTea wrote:
If I were to rate levels of dominance:
1. oov
2. Savior
3. Nada
4. Boxer
5. Bisu
... although I'm hesitant to apply the "dominant" label to Boxer.
..
Boxer won two OSLs back to back and a KPGA Tour (MSL) AND was in the finals of a 3rd OSL after his 2 wins.
How is that not dominant?
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Bisu, in fact, should be dubbed Neo-Nal_Ra for the sake of innovation he has brought into the game. He made tosses competely rethink the approach to PvZ, and, after his performance vs Hwasin, I'm very anxious to see his PvT because it's somewhat different too. The way he relies on harass and manages threat is awesome. The way he used pure strategy to take down Hwasin when he was behind on both producion and unit count was marvelous.
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i wouldnt really call bisu innovative. hes insanely good, but that comes from his impeccable mechanics/timing/decision making. its not like hes the first toss to use fe into dt/sair, even in the pro scene, its just no one else can make it work nearly as well as he can.
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I think Bisu will have a "Savior-effect" on Protoss players. Savior didn't innovate all that heavily, but his execution, coordination and game-sense was so good that he made 3 hatch and late game hive tech into a god-like build- and popularized it. He changed Zerg play not through innovation so much as through dominance- I don't think we'd have players like GGplay and Yarnc without Savior, even through 3 hatch heavy tech builds have been around since forever. Bisu appears to be doing the same, as Idra said, no one else can make it work nearly as well as he can- for now. He'll popularize it, and soon FE->sair builds will proliferate just as 3 hatch and heavy reliance on hive tech is everywhere now.
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On November 09 2007 01:10 himurakenshin wrote:
Winning the MSL twice doesn't mean anything, Bisu is still getting thrown around by amature players like Flash. If he had won two OSLs back-to-back he would be like Boxer in 2001; untouchable.
what about flying rabbits ?
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So are we to call Mind the new terran comet now?
When will Bisu start to slump?
Its amazing how many new nicks and faces we have to get familiar with as fans of this game
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i really wanna see xellos win, just because he is old school. i don't wanna keep seeing new schoolers getting into finals. it is just not right, imo =P
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Semioldguy, how's that sock tasting?
Somewhat related:
WHAT THE SHIT. SAVIOR VS BISU REMATCH WOULD HAVE BEEN AWESOME. DAMMIT MIND, I KNEW YOU WERE GOOD BUT WHY DID YOU HAVE TO GO AHEAD AND WIN?!
+ Show Spoiler +Can we please nickname Mind as Mandark Terran?
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god i hope bisu is gonna destroy mind
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On November 09 2007 05:42 teamsolid wrote:
Yeah, I bet the infamous "OSL slump" is just because many of the OSL winners weren't true championship material in the first place. They just go on a short hot-streak and a few lucky breaks and then it wears off after that. Savior is definitely up there with his MSL wins, and I hope he comes back in the future.
Not to say that some people don't get lucky, but it has happened to Oov, Nada, July, and other dominating Bonjwas enough that that isn't the only explanation.
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Fact: Larger sample sizes (including size of player pool, number of games played, etc) will increase accuracy of results.
Ergo, MSL is better at determining the best player from a selection of players (even if technical problems plagued them like the... plague, last year) compared to the OSL.
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On November 09 2007 07:55 Aphelion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2007 05:42 teamsolid wrote:
Yeah, I bet the infamous "OSL slump" is just because many of the OSL winners weren't true championship material in the first place. They just go on a short hot-streak and a few lucky breaks and then it wears off after that. Savior is definitely up there with his MSL wins, and I hope he comes back in the future. Not to say that some people don't get lucky, but it has happened to Oov, Nada, July, and other dominating Bonjwas enough that that isn't the only explanation.
Um, thats the point. Even dominant players of the era can get kicked out of the OSL because of the great luck in the format.
I mean, just take a look at Nada for an example. Wins one OSL, then doesn't even appear in the semis for the next 5! Then drops off the face off the earth again for 4 more OSLs, only to win it again!
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wow umm... I had a dream about thes games that Mind won 3-1. Then I woke and felt relieved that it, until I checked tl... Wow sAviOr. Can sum1 tell me did sAviOr lose because of bad play, or did Mind just outplay him?
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On November 09 2007 08:32 kNyTTyM wrote:
wow umm... I had a dream about thes games that Mind won 3-1. Then I woke and felt relieved that it, until I checked tl... Wow sAviOr. Can sum1 tell me did sAviOr lose because of bad play, or did Mind just outplay him?
Savior didn't play poorly. Mind just showed a lot of intelligent play. His micro and macro weren't anything spectacular, but he's definitely one of those players who is thinking the entire game. He scouted very well, used his comsats effectively to check on Savior's tech, employed the off-beat expansion timing that is usually attributed to oov, and kept his army in generally good positions, especially on Blue Storm, where he used the high ground to GREAT effect more than once. While he wasn't as flashy as Casy or scary as oov, he got the job done by using, of all things, his mind.
It's also interesting to note that every one of Mind's wins was off of a one-rax CC build, and his two losses were the games in which he deviated from this formula.
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United States1654 Posts
I'm so mad that I won't get to see a Savior vs Bisu rematch....
I hope they meet in the OSL at least. <_<
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Corinthos
Canada1842 Posts
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On November 09 2007 06:15 FieryBalrog wrote:
Boxer changed the whole Starcraft paradigm- the mentality with which players approached the game- and he blew away boundaries and opened up huge areas of the game for further exploration and innovation.
He was never as dominating a player as Nada or Savior even at his prime, but he was always a more important player.
The closest player to Boxer (albeit weaker) in my opinion is Nal_Ra, not Nada or Oov.
agree with you.. the closest player to boxer its Nal_Ra, actually a paradigm breaker its Bisu, but Ra and Boxer are the prime masters =)
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United States10774 Posts
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sAviOr's moving to OSL, he respects the 3 MSl title rule.
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United States7488 Posts
On November 09 2007 07:28 Jyvblamo wrote:Semioldguy, how's that sock tasting?
I believe my post said that I would eat my own sock if Mind were to win 3-0
On November 08 2007 10:26 semioldguy wrote:
... and 3-0 in favor of Mind is totally not going to happen. If it does happen tonight, I'll post a video of me eating my own sock.
I think I am justified in not having to eat my sock, but I was getting prepared to after game 1.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On November 09 2007 06:33 FieryBalrog wrote:
I think Bisu will have a "Savior-effect" on Protoss players. Savior didn't innovate all that heavily, but his execution, coordination and game-sense was so good that he made 3 hatch and late game hive tech into a god-like build- and popularized it. He changed Zerg play not through innovation so much as through dominance- I don't think we'd have players like GGplay and Yarnc without Savior, even through 3 hatch heavy tech builds have been around since forever. Bisu appears to be doing the same, as Idra said, no one else can make it work nearly as well as he can- for now. He'll popularize it, and soon FE->sair builds will proliferate just as 3 hatch and heavy reliance on hive tech is everywhere now.
Hm.. I think Yarnc's ZvT sort of predates Savior, I mean, sure Savior was around before him, but I think he's a beast of his own :D
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On November 09 2007 11:41 semioldguy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2007 07:28 Jyvblamo wrote:Semioldguy, how's that sock tasting? I believe my post said that I would eat my own sock if Mind were to win 3-0 Show nested quote +On November 08 2007 10:26 semioldguy wrote:
... and 3-0 in favor of Mind is totally not going to happen. If it does happen tonight, I'll post a video of me eating my own sock. I think I am justified in not having to eat my sock, but I was getting prepared to after game 1.
Bah, darned fine print... *mutters*
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Wow. I'm so depressed that savior lost >.<
So many ppl asked about the sock.
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what an impressive and intense series!
i especially loved the micro and macro lon-game matches.
gogogo xellos and inter.mind! <3
On November 09 2007 06:22 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2007 05:47 HonestTea wrote:
If I were to rate levels of dominance:
1. oov
2. Savior
3. Nada
4. Boxer
5. Bisu
... although I'm hesitant to apply the "dominant" label to Boxer. .. Boxer won two OSLs back to back and a KPGA Tour (MSL) AND was in the finals of a 3rd OSL after his 2 wins. How is that not dominant?
well you know what they say...
but boxer is the man the starcraft legend after all.
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Comparison between OSL and MSL chance: I think it is like between UEFA Champion League's 1-round table -> direct elimination format now and 2-round table format several years ago. With less games to play, a dreamer has a better chance to win the trophy.
Thus, winning two OSLs in a row seems likely impossible now. That's not to say whether OSL winner is better or worse than MSL one. It's only that the first seeds have more chance to win MSL.
In general, we could call OSL a more liberal league while MSL definitely a conservative one with little chance for beginers. Thus, first-time Mind reaching the MSL final proves he has some ability.
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Live2Win
United States6657 Posts
On November 05 2007 07:57 Live2Win wrote:
If savior loses THIS ONE I'll leave progaming forever.
ok maybe not, but I'll do something drastic.
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What sucks is that Savior losing reveals the increasing lack of promising new Zerg players these days. Not much new guard to replace the Savior-Chojja-GoRush generation apart from maybe Jaedong and an increasingly irrelevant GGplay.
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On November 09 2007 15:13 FieryBalrog wrote:
What sucks is that Savior losing reveals the increasing lack of promising new Zerg players these days. Not much new guard to replace the Savior-Chojja-GoRush generation apart from maybe Jaedong and an increasingly irrelevant GGplay.
Its more like we have good zergs, but none have consistant matchups.
most of the newer zergs have good zvt and zvz but some have not so good zvp (and sometimes, good zvp, not so good zvt.)
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I HATE YOU MIND!!! I really dislike no name terrans and im a terran player. Actually i dislike most noname players.
I was seriously about to cry while slaving away at math problems in my math hakwon. Only getting results by 5 mins breaktime. NOOO savior
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On November 09 2007 15:10 Live2Win wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2007 07:57 Live2Win wrote:
If savior loses THIS ONE I'll leave progaming forever.
ok maybe not, but I'll do something drastic.
eek what are you gonna do?
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Everyone is bashing Mind for beating Savior... But you must realize that you are all like intrigue on IRC. This is the summary of that conversation:
intriguesomniac: MIND SUCKS
FanaBatHero: No he doesn't. It's not like Mind sucked every game and just stole wins from Savior.
intriguesomniac: But savior wasn't playing to his fullest!
FanaBatHero: That doesn't take anything away from Mind, because he performed well even if Savior for some reason did not. You can't say that Mind sucks and Savior just messed up and it would never happen again, like it was some sort of accident. Mind has skill.
intriguesomniac: Mind sucks for beating Savior
And I think that last underlined statement is what summarizes your feelings. It's not his actual skill level which sucks terribly (be honest - he's good. Even a slumping Savior would be hard to beat. Sure he has his flaws, but he's new, too!), it's the fact that everyone hates him for beating Savior and therefore he MUST suck.
As for "no-name" players beating such prestigious titles as "The Maestro," do you think no one started off at the very bottom and rose to the top? How many people really liked Savior when he just emerged as ipxzerg and started winning his games? Even Boxer must have gotten some of this hate as a "no-namer" that won tournaments way back in the day. It's a fact that "no-name" players evolve to become the Maestro, the Revolutionist, the Emperor, so on and so forth.
So everyone who posts ignorant statements like "MIND SUCKS AT SC LOL" or "i hate deez noname players T_T dey sux nd beet da best," get a reality check. The no-names of today are the leaders of tomorrow. And everyone who blindly classifies anyone who got to MSL semi-finals and beat Savior as a "one-trick pony," could be in for a rough awakening. Not every victory to a person who has lower or even non-existent stats is a fluke, not every rising unknown is a flash in the pan. Wake up.
It's okay to be upset that one of your favorite players is slumping, is losing, and losing to newer players. It's okay to resent the man that smited the king off his throne. But this is the MSL semi-finals. Don't take anything away from that player in terms of achievement or skill, because if you do, you just have your head up your ass.
This doesn't go to everyone who has posted, obviously. Just my 2 cents.
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Savior lost because 2-4 patches back(don't remember exactly when) the terrans recieved quite a big bump in stats, like the Goliath now fires anti-air missles very very fast, Vulture got also increased attack speed, while the zerg got some reduction in stats. This is why Savior lost, this is why there hasen't been any Zerg player in any final for half a year now.
And this is why we see more and more terran players getting to the finals. If you can't beat a terran player in 10 minutes you're a gooner.
So Blizzard should immidiatly return the balance to the game back, reduce the goliath anit-air attack speed and reduce siege tank damage to 60, while bring back the movement speed of the hydralisk and attack speed of mutalisk.
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wow, all that you mentioned is mainly applied in tvp..
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Braavos36375 Posts
On November 09 2007 23:35 fanatacist wrote:
Everyone is bashing Mind for beating Savior... But you must realize that you are all like intrigue on IRC. This is the summary of that conversation:
intriguesomniac: MIND SUCKS
FanaBatHero: No he doesn't. It's not like Mind sucked every game and just stole wins from Savior.
intriguesomniac: But savior wasn't playing to his fullest!
FanaBatHero: That doesn't take anything away from Mind, because he performed well even if Savior for some reason did not. You can't say that Mind sucks and Savior just messed up and it would never happen again, like it was some sort of accident. Mind has skill.
intriguesomniac: Mind sucks for beating Savior
And I think that last underlined statement is what summarizes your feelings. It's not his actual skill level which sucks terribly (be honest - he's good. Even a slumping Savior would be hard to beat. Sure he has his flaws, but he's new, too!), it's the fact that everyone hates him for beating Savior and therefore he MUST suck.
As for "no-name" players beating such prestigious titles as "The Maestro," do you think no one started off at the very bottom and rose to the top? How many people really liked Savior when he just emerged as ipxzerg and started winning his games? Even Boxer must have gotten some of this hate as a "no-namer" that won tournaments way back in the day. It's a fact that "no-name" players evolve to become the Maestro, the Revolutionist, the Emperor, so on and so forth.
So everyone who posts ignorant statements like "MIND SUCKS AT SC LOL" or "i hate deez noname players T_T dey sux nd beet da best," get a reality check. The no-names of today are the leaders of tomorrow. And everyone who blindly classifies anyone who got to MSL semi-finals and beat Savior as a "one-trick pony," could be in for a rough awakening. Not every victory to a person who has lower or even non-existent stats is a fluke, not every rising unknown is a flash in the pan. Wake up.
It's okay to be upset that one of your favorite players is slumping, is losing, and losing to newer players. It's okay to resent the man that smited the king off his throne. But this is the MSL semi-finals. Don't take anything away from that player in terms of achievement or skill, because if you do, you just have your head up your ass.
This doesn't go to everyone who has posted, obviously. Just my 2 cents.
I think it's assumed that when people say "Mind sucks" they mean "I'm a fan of Savior, this result sucks." It's just fans being fans. Mind is a progamer. Sure he got a little lucky getting the right matchups on his way to the semis, but I don't think anyone who is saying "Mind sucks" actually thinks he's bad at Starcraft. He's a professional gamer in Korea who made the finals of one of the two most prestigious leagues. He doesn't suck.
This feeling is very understandable, we as fans have an emotional attachment with the players and thus we feel angry and disappointed when one of our favorites loses to someone who we have no clue about. I'm sure many felt the same way when Savior beat Reach for his first MSL. It's the natural flow of things.
That said, Mind did not really show anything those games. Savior played badly and Mind was solid, but did not distinguish himself. He played good, sure, but I have no question that Savior a few months ago would've crushed him. This is the core of why people are mad, Savior has played so much better. Mind does suck compared to Savior at his peak.
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Braavos36375 Posts
On November 10 2007 00:15 SlickR wrote:
Savior lost because 2-4 patches back(don't remember exactly when) the terrans recieved quite a big bump in stats, like the Goliath now fires anti-air missles very very fast, Vulture got also increased attack speed, while the zerg got some reduction in stats. This is why Savior lost, this is why there hasen't been any Zerg player in any final for half a year now.
And this is why we see more and more terran players getting to the finals. If you can't beat a terran player in 10 minutes you're a gooner.
So Blizzard should immidiatly return the balance to the game back, reduce the goliath anit-air attack speed and reduce siege tank damage to 60, while bring back the movement speed of the hydralisk and attack speed of mutalisk.
I'm not sure if you're trolling or being serious, but you have no idea what you're talking about.
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Braavos36375 Posts
On November 09 2007 15:13 FieryBalrog wrote:
What sucks is that Savior losing reveals the increasing lack of promising new Zerg players these days. Not much new guard to replace the Savior-Chojja-GoRush generation apart from maybe Jaedong and an increasingly irrelevant GGplay.
Jaedong and Kwanro are "newish" but GGPlay is not even close, the guy has been around forever.
If I had to classify Zerg player evolution, it'd be:
Yellow (Start of BW to ~2003)
Chojja and Gorush (2002-2004)
Chojja and July (2004-2005)
July and Savior (2005-2006)
Savior (2006-2007)
?????? (2007-2008)
Yellow and Chojja both had a resurgence for one season in 2006.
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United States7488 Posts
On November 10 2007 00:15 SlickR wrote:
Savior lost because 2-4 patches back(don't remember exactly when) the terrans recieved quite a big bump in stats, like the Goliath now fires anti-air missles very very fast, Vulture got also increased attack speed, while the zerg got some reduction in stats. This is why Savior lost, this is why there hasen't been any Zerg player in any final for half a year now.
And this is why we see more and more terran players getting to the finals. If you can't beat a terran player in 10 minutes you're a gooner.
So Blizzard should immidiatly return the balance to the game back, reduce the goliath anit-air attack speed and reduce siege tank damage to 60, while bring back the movement speed of the hydralisk and attack speed of mutalisk.
The last real balance changes were 1.08, which was quite a while back. Check the patch history here.
The most recent Starleague finals (Daum OSL) was won by a Zerg player.
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On November 10 2007 00:45 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2007 15:13 FieryBalrog wrote:
What sucks is that Savior losing reveals the increasing lack of promising new Zerg players these days. Not much new guard to replace the Savior-Chojja-GoRush generation apart from maybe Jaedong and an increasingly irrelevant GGplay. Jaedong and Kwanro are "newish" but GGPlay is not even close, the guy has been around forever. If I had to classify Zerg player evolution, it'd be: Yellow (Start of BW to ~2003) Chojja and Gorush (2002-2004) Chojja and July (2004-2005) July and Savior (2005-2006) Savior (2006-2007) ?????? (2007-2008) Yellow and Chojja both had a resurgence for one season in 2006.
I think you missed H.O.T.-Forever, that guy was pioneer in hydra-lurk ZvP =)
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Braavos36375 Posts
I edited my post to make it more accurate, but yeah the stuff that early on I am not that familiar with.
Either way those guys aren't very important compared to the other names there.
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On November 10 2007 00:40 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2007 23:35 fanatacist wrote:
Everyone is bashing Mind for beating Savior... But you must realize that you are all like intrigue on IRC. This is the summary of that conversation:
intriguesomniac: MIND SUCKS
FanaBatHero: No he doesn't. It's not like Mind sucked every game and just stole wins from Savior.
intriguesomniac: But savior wasn't playing to his fullest!
FanaBatHero: That doesn't take anything away from Mind, because he performed well even if Savior for some reason did not. You can't say that Mind sucks and Savior just messed up and it would never happen again, like it was some sort of accident. Mind has skill.
intriguesomniac: Mind sucks for beating Savior
And I think that last underlined statement is what summarizes your feelings. It's not his actual skill level which sucks terribly (be honest - he's good. Even a slumping Savior would be hard to beat. Sure he has his flaws, but he's new, too!), it's the fact that everyone hates him for beating Savior and therefore he MUST suck.
As for "no-name" players beating such prestigious titles as "The Maestro," do you think no one started off at the very bottom and rose to the top? How many people really liked Savior when he just emerged as ipxzerg and started winning his games? Even Boxer must have gotten some of this hate as a "no-namer" that won tournaments way back in the day. It's a fact that "no-name" players evolve to become the Maestro, the Revolutionist, the Emperor, so on and so forth.
So everyone who posts ignorant statements like "MIND SUCKS AT SC LOL" or "i hate deez noname players T_T dey sux nd beet da best," get a reality check. The no-names of today are the leaders of tomorrow. And everyone who blindly classifies anyone who got to MSL semi-finals and beat Savior as a "one-trick pony," could be in for a rough awakening. Not every victory to a person who has lower or even non-existent stats is a fluke, not every rising unknown is a flash in the pan. Wake up.
It's okay to be upset that one of your favorite players is slumping, is losing, and losing to newer players. It's okay to resent the man that smited the king off his throne. But this is the MSL semi-finals. Don't take anything away from that player in terms of achievement or skill, because if you do, you just have your head up your ass.
This doesn't go to everyone who has posted, obviously. Just my 2 cents. I think it's assumed that when people say "Mind sucks" they mean "I'm a fan of Savior, this result sucks." It's just fans being fans. Mind is a progamer. Sure he got a little lucky getting the right matchups on his way to the semis, but I don't think anyone who is saying "Mind sucks" actually thinks he's bad at Starcraft. He's a professional gamer in Korea who made the finals of one of the two most prestigious leagues. He doesn't suck. This feeling is very understandable, we as fans have an emotional attachment with the players and thus we feel angry and disappointed when one of our favorites loses to someone who we have no clue about. I'm sure many felt the same way when Savior beat Reach for his first MSL. It's the natural flow of things. That said, Mind did not really show anything those games. Savior played badly and Mind was solid, but did not distinguish himself. He played good, sure, but I have no question that Savior a few months ago would've crushed him. This is the core of why people are mad, Savior has played so much better. Mind does suck compared to Savior at his peak.
I agree with everything in that statement.
But there ARE people that denounce Mind as just some kid who got lucky entirely, there ARE people that deny the presence of any skill in his play. Sure, riding one MU all the way to semi's is pretty lucky, but it also takes skill to win those matches. It's not like rock-paper-scissors, Mind rolls TvT = instawin. Sure, he isn't the most refined player, but he is also relatively very new. He is raw - everyone can see that. But he has skill. Just because he hasn't refined that skill to the point of being distinguishing doesn't mean that this is all there is to this new player, in my opinion.
Also the fact that he beat Savior had nothing to do with luck. Is Savior slumping? Yes. Was he better than Mind at his peak? Definitely. But it's time for even die-hard fans to face the truth - it doesn't matter if Savior was better than Mind at one point; Mind proved his strength RIGHT NOW. He has SKILL. Like I said, I understand the sentiment that Savior was better at one point and his fans want to see a comeback, a return of the champion, a Rocky IV. I understand the disliking of Mind for it. But it's no reason to DISRESPECT him for it. I voted for Savior in the Liquibet, and when I saw the results, I shared the common response of "WTF?!" But after watching the games, I feel the victory is very much justified.
Anyone who watched the games has no right to outright disrespect or denounce his SKILL. Only his victory.
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On November 10 2007 00:43 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2007 00:15 SlickR wrote:
Savior lost because 2-4 patches back(don't remember exactly when) the terrans recieved quite a big bump in stats, like the Goliath now fires anti-air missles very very fast, Vulture got also increased attack speed, while the zerg got some reduction in stats. This is why Savior lost, this is why there hasen't been any Zerg player in any final for half a year now.
And this is why we see more and more terran players getting to the finals. If you can't beat a terran player in 10 minutes you're a gooner.
So Blizzard should immidiatly return the balance to the game back, reduce the goliath anit-air attack speed and reduce siege tank damage to 60, while bring back the movement speed of the hydralisk and attack speed of mutalisk. I'm not sure if you're trolling or being serious, but you have no idea what you're talking about.
Look at the post count. Makes things obvious ):.
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On November 09 2007 08:46 DJEtterStyle wrote:
It's also interesting to note that every one of Mind's wins was off of a one-rax CC build, and his two losses were the games in which he deviated from this formula.
I noticed that as well and thought: Wouldn't this be very different if it was one of the more aggressive zergs on the opposite keyboard? In all those games I found myself thinking: "Okay, if sAviOr would just start making tons of lings now he will demolish this noob! (which he prooved not to be in the end)" Then again, he would probably not use that build against someone like July or kwanro. The fact that sAviOrs playstyle is well known and documented must have had something to do with it.
Mind might be a new rising star, but he will have to do a lot more cool stuff before I will ever start rooting for him. Right now he feels more like a smart typical player, nothing exceptional.
And I'm still wondering what went wrong in game four when he pushed all that crap in and it died. I was certain the maestro would come out on top there...
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Mind won. Won in a bo5 vs Savior who, even not having the magic anymore, is still a solid zerg player. Won 3:2 by straight play, without cheesy or funky shit. I don't really understand people who deny him skill.
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On November 10 2007 00:46 semioldguy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2007 00:15 SlickR wrote:
Savior lost because 2-4 patches back(don't remember exactly when) the terrans recieved quite a big bump in stats, like the Goliath now fires anti-air missles very very fast, Vulture got also increased attack speed, while the zerg got some reduction in stats. This is why Savior lost, this is why there hasen't been any Zerg player in any final for half a year now.
And this is why we see more and more terran players getting to the finals. If you can't beat a terran player in 10 minutes you're a gooner.
So Blizzard should immidiatly return the balance to the game back, reduce the goliath anit-air attack speed and reduce siege tank damage to 60, while bring back the movement speed of the hydralisk and attack speed of mutalisk. The last real balance changes were 1.08, which was quite a while back. Check the patch history here. The most recent Starleague finals (Daum OSL) was won by a Zerg player.
Actually blizzard don't show most of the balance changes they make. That 1.08 patch has the balance changes becose there is quite a lot of changes but in patches that only 3-4 units are changed they don't write it down. I know this becose i've played all blizzard games from warcraft 2 to warcraft 2 and i always see a change on balance in the game with every 2-3 patches but nothing saying in the patch text. So in your face!
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Braavos36375 Posts
I think it's more just Savior fans venting frustration. It's difficult to win a Bo5 vs any zerg that's Savior's level, peak or not.
That said, the 5th game was just horrific. Mind simply macros for 20 minutes and rolls over Savior, you could insert any Terran that knows how to 1-rax cc into Mind's slot and they would've won that game. The disappointment and lashing out is precisely because Savior is capable of so much more.
Again, of course Mind deserved it, he played better than Savior did. He's skilled obviously, he showed solid macro and drops and attacked at the right times. He even showed a little brilliance in the Python game if you believe the guy who started the thread about his "feint."
It's just frustrating that an "ordinary" person took down someone who used to be a ZvT god, that's all. This seems more like Mind played ordinary or good, and Savior played bad, rather than Mind playing the series of his life and Savior playing average or good.
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Wow, someone managed to be more wrong than Carlo. I'm impressed.
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On November 10 2007 05:16 SlickR wrote:
Actually blizzard don't show most of the balance changes they make. That 1.08 patch has the balance changes becose there is quite a lot of changes but in patches that only 3-4 units are changed they don't write it down. I know this becose i've played all blizzard games from warcraft 2 to warcraft 2 and i always see a change on balance in the game with every 2-3 patches but nothing saying in the patch text. So in your face!
Oh dear me. lol?
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On November 10 2007 00:55 fanatacist wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2007 00:40 Hot_Bid wrote:On November 09 2007 23:35 fanatacist wrote:
Everyone is bashing Mind for beating Savior... But you must realize that you are all like intrigue on IRC. This is the summary of that conversation:
intriguesomniac: MIND SUCKS
FanaBatHero: No he doesn't. It's not like Mind sucked every game and just stole wins from Savior.
intriguesomniac: But savior wasn't playing to his fullest!
FanaBatHero: That doesn't take anything away from Mind, because he performed well even if Savior for some reason did not. You can't say that Mind sucks and Savior just messed up and it would never happen again, like it was some sort of accident. Mind has skill.
intriguesomniac: Mind sucks for beating Savior
And I think that last underlined statement is what summarizes your feelings. It's not his actual skill level which sucks terribly (be honest - he's good. Even a slumping Savior would be hard to beat. Sure he has his flaws, but he's new, too!), it's the fact that everyone hates him for beating Savior and therefore he MUST suck.
As for "no-name" players beating such prestigious titles as "The Maestro," do you think no one started off at the very bottom and rose to the top? How many people really liked Savior when he just emerged as ipxzerg and started winning his games? Even Boxer must have gotten some of this hate as a "no-namer" that won tournaments way back in the day. It's a fact that "no-name" players evolve to become the Maestro, the Revolutionist, the Emperor, so on and so forth.
So everyone who posts ignorant statements like "MIND SUCKS AT SC LOL" or "i hate deez noname players T_T dey sux nd beet da best," get a reality check. The no-names of today are the leaders of tomorrow. And everyone who blindly classifies anyone who got to MSL semi-finals and beat Savior as a "one-trick pony," could be in for a rough awakening. Not every victory to a person who has lower or even non-existent stats is a fluke, not every rising unknown is a flash in the pan. Wake up.
It's okay to be upset that one of your favorite players is slumping, is losing, and losing to newer players. It's okay to resent the man that smited the king off his throne. But this is the MSL semi-finals. Don't take anything away from that player in terms of achievement or skill, because if you do, you just have your head up your ass.
This doesn't go to everyone who has posted, obviously. Just my 2 cents. I think it's assumed that when people say "Mind sucks" they mean "I'm a fan of Savior, this result sucks." It's just fans being fans. Mind is a progamer. Sure he got a little lucky getting the right matchups on his way to the semis, but I don't think anyone who is saying "Mind sucks" actually thinks he's bad at Starcraft. He's a professional gamer in Korea who made the finals of one of the two most prestigious leagues. He doesn't suck. This feeling is very understandable, we as fans have an emotional attachment with the players and thus we feel angry and disappointed when one of our favorites loses to someone who we have no clue about. I'm sure many felt the same way when Savior beat Reach for his first MSL. It's the natural flow of things. That said, Mind did not really show anything those games. Savior played badly and Mind was solid, but did not distinguish himself. He played good, sure, but I have no question that Savior a few months ago would've crushed him. This is the core of why people are mad, Savior has played so much better. Mind does suck compared to Savior at his peak. I agree with everything in that statement. But there ARE people that denounce Mind as just some kid who got lucky entirely, there ARE people that deny the presence of any skill in his play. Sure, riding one MU all the way to semi's is pretty lucky, but it also takes skill to win those matches. It's not like rock-paper-scissors, Mind rolls TvT = instawin. Sure, he isn't the most refined player, but he is also relatively very new. He is raw - everyone can see that. But he has skill. Just because he hasn't refined that skill to the point of being distinguishing doesn't mean that this is all there is to this new player, in my opinion. Also the fact that he beat Savior had nothing to do with luck. Is Savior slumping? Yes. Was he better than Mind at his peak? Definitely. But it's time for even die-hard fans to face the truth - it doesn't matter if Savior was better than Mind at one point; Mind proved his strength RIGHT NOW. He has SKILL. Like I said, I understand the sentiment that Savior was better at one point and his fans want to see a comeback, a return of the champion, a Rocky IV. I understand the disliking of Mind for it. But it's no reason to DISRESPECT him for it. I voted for Savior in the Liquibet, and when I saw the results, I shared the common response of "WTF?!" But after watching the games, I feel the victory is very much justified. Anyone who watched the games has no right to outright disrespect or denounce his SKILL. Only his victory.
Mind played well, even great. but I don't think there was anything that outstanding about his play. Savior played like a mediocre Zerg, not his usual, world-dominating supremely impenetrable self.
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Braavos36375 Posts
On November 10 2007 05:26 FieryBalrog wrote:
Mind played well, but I don't think there was anything that outstanding about his play. Savior played like a mediocre Zerg, not his usual, world-dominating supremely impenetrable self.
It's really kind of tragic.
When was the last time Savior actually played like his normal self ZvT?
Probably vs Nada, Shinhan3 OSL Finals Game 4.
I agree with whoever said that Bisu "broke" him.
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On November 10 2007 05:29 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2007 05:26 FieryBalrog wrote:
Mind played well, but I don't think there was anything that outstanding about his play. Savior played like a mediocre Zerg, not his usual, world-dominating supremely impenetrable self. It's really kind of tragic. When was the last time Savior actually played like his normal self ZvT? Probably vs Nada, Shinhan3 OSL Finals Game 4. I agree with whoever said that Bisu "broke" him.
Its funny, after Bisu you'd expect the new Protoss gen to start taking Savior down, but its been the opposite- Stork and Free steamrolled, but every other T player taking him down each tourney- FBH, Iris and now Mind...
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On November 10 2007 05:26 FieryBalrog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2007 00:55 fanatacist wrote:On November 10 2007 00:40 Hot_Bid wrote:On November 09 2007 23:35 fanatacist wrote:
Everyone is bashing Mind for beating Savior... But you must realize that you are all like intrigue on IRC. This is the summary of that conversation:
intriguesomniac: MIND SUCKS
FanaBatHero: No he doesn't. It's not like Mind sucked every game and just stole wins from Savior.
intriguesomniac: But savior wasn't playing to his fullest!
FanaBatHero: That doesn't take anything away from Mind, because he performed well even if Savior for some reason did not. You can't say that Mind sucks and Savior just messed up and it would never happen again, like it was some sort of accident. Mind has skill.
intriguesomniac: Mind sucks for beating Savior
And I think that last underlined statement is what summarizes your feelings. It's not his actual skill level which sucks terribly (be honest - he's good. Even a slumping Savior would be hard to beat. Sure he has his flaws, but he's new, too!), it's the fact that everyone hates him for beating Savior and therefore he MUST suck.
As for "no-name" players beating such prestigious titles as "The Maestro," do you think no one started off at the very bottom and rose to the top? How many people really liked Savior when he just emerged as ipxzerg and started winning his games? Even Boxer must have gotten some of this hate as a "no-namer" that won tournaments way back in the day. It's a fact that "no-name" players evolve to become the Maestro, the Revolutionist, the Emperor, so on and so forth.
So everyone who posts ignorant statements like "MIND SUCKS AT SC LOL" or "i hate deez noname players T_T dey sux nd beet da best," get a reality check. The no-names of today are the leaders of tomorrow. And everyone who blindly classifies anyone who got to MSL semi-finals and beat Savior as a "one-trick pony," could be in for a rough awakening. Not every victory to a person who has lower or even non-existent stats is a fluke, not every rising unknown is a flash in the pan. Wake up.
It's okay to be upset that one of your favorite players is slumping, is losing, and losing to newer players. It's okay to resent the man that smited the king off his throne. But this is the MSL semi-finals. Don't take anything away from that player in terms of achievement or skill, because if you do, you just have your head up your ass.
This doesn't go to everyone who has posted, obviously. Just my 2 cents. I think it's assumed that when people say "Mind sucks" they mean "I'm a fan of Savior, this result sucks." It's just fans being fans. Mind is a progamer. Sure he got a little lucky getting the right matchups on his way to the semis, but I don't think anyone who is saying "Mind sucks" actually thinks he's bad at Starcraft. He's a professional gamer in Korea who made the finals of one of the two most prestigious leagues. He doesn't suck. This feeling is very understandable, we as fans have an emotional attachment with the players and thus we feel angry and disappointed when one of our favorites loses to someone who we have no clue about. I'm sure many felt the same way when Savior beat Reach for his first MSL. It's the natural flow of things. That said, Mind did not really show anything those games. Savior played badly and Mind was solid, but did not distinguish himself. He played good, sure, but I have no question that Savior a few months ago would've crushed him. This is the core of why people are mad, Savior has played so much better. Mind does suck compared to Savior at his peak. I agree with everything in that statement. But there ARE people that denounce Mind as just some kid who got lucky entirely, there ARE people that deny the presence of any skill in his play. Sure, riding one MU all the way to semi's is pretty lucky, but it also takes skill to win those matches. It's not like rock-paper-scissors, Mind rolls TvT = instawin. Sure, he isn't the most refined player, but he is also relatively very new. He is raw - everyone can see that. But he has skill. Just because he hasn't refined that skill to the point of being distinguishing doesn't mean that this is all there is to this new player, in my opinion. Also the fact that he beat Savior had nothing to do with luck. Is Savior slumping? Yes. Was he better than Mind at his peak? Definitely. But it's time for even die-hard fans to face the truth - it doesn't matter if Savior was better than Mind at one point; Mind proved his strength RIGHT NOW. He has SKILL. Like I said, I understand the sentiment that Savior was better at one point and his fans want to see a comeback, a return of the champion, a Rocky IV. I understand the disliking of Mind for it. But it's no reason to DISRESPECT him for it. I voted for Savior in the Liquibet, and when I saw the results, I shared the common response of "WTF?!" But after watching the games, I feel the victory is very much justified. Anyone who watched the games has no right to outright disrespect or denounce his SKILL. Only his victory. Mind played well, even great. but I don't think there was anything that outstanding about his play. Savior played like a mediocre Zerg, not his usual, world-dominating supremely impenetrable self.
True that.
Same to Hot_Bid's post.
But obviously what I said wasn't directed at you guys.
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On November 10 2007 05:33 FieryBalrog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2007 05:29 Hot_Bid wrote:On November 10 2007 05:26 FieryBalrog wrote:
Mind played well, but I don't think there was anything that outstanding about his play. Savior played like a mediocre Zerg, not his usual, world-dominating supremely impenetrable self. It's really kind of tragic. When was the last time Savior actually played like his normal self ZvT? Probably vs Nada, Shinhan3 OSL Finals Game 4. I agree with whoever said that Bisu "broke" him. Its funny, after Bisu you'd expect the new Protoss gen to start taking Savior down, but its been the opposite- Stork and Free steamrolled, but every other T player taking him down each tourney- FBH, Iris and now Mind...
I think it's very likely Savior doesn't view T as dangerous and slacked his practice against them significantly in an attempt to jack up his ZvP game against Bisu.
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On November 10 2007 06:47 KissBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2007 05:33 FieryBalrog wrote:On November 10 2007 05:29 Hot_Bid wrote:On November 10 2007 05:26 FieryBalrog wrote:
Mind played well, but I don't think there was anything that outstanding about his play. Savior played like a mediocre Zerg, not his usual, world-dominating supremely impenetrable self. It's really kind of tragic. When was the last time Savior actually played like his normal self ZvT? Probably vs Nada, Shinhan3 OSL Finals Game 4. I agree with whoever said that Bisu "broke" him. Its funny, after Bisu you'd expect the new Protoss gen to start taking Savior down, but its been the opposite- Stork and Free steamrolled, but every other T player taking him down each tourney- FBH, Iris and now Mind... I think it's very likely Savior doesn't view T as dangerous and slacked his practice against them significantly in an attempt to jack up his ZvP game against Bisu.
That's the simplest explanation.
But there's simply no proof of that and it doesn't sound like something a good player would do. Maybe it is like Savior has said, maybe it's all in the maps. Maybe he just has too many games to play. Maybe it's something else.
But to say that Bisu "broke" him is laughable. He still as strong vP as ever. He's owned every single protoss since Bisu short of 1 cheesy win nalra pulled of right after that MSL loss.
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On November 10 2007 05:33 FieryBalrog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2007 05:29 Hot_Bid wrote:On November 10 2007 05:26 FieryBalrog wrote:
Mind played well, but I don't think there was anything that outstanding about his play. Savior played like a mediocre Zerg, not his usual, world-dominating supremely impenetrable self. It's really kind of tragic. When was the last time Savior actually played like his normal self ZvT? Probably vs Nada, Shinhan3 OSL Finals Game 4. I agree with whoever said that Bisu "broke" him. Its funny, after Bisu you'd expect the new Protoss gen to start taking Savior down, but its been the opposite- Stork and Free steamrolled, but every other T player taking him down each tourney- FBH, Iris and now Mind... Iris and Hwasin both pushed him hard before he lost to Bisu.
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On November 10 2007 11:47 Pyrthas wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2007 05:33 FieryBalrog wrote:On November 10 2007 05:29 Hot_Bid wrote:On November 10 2007 05:26 FieryBalrog wrote:
Mind played well, but I don't think there was anything that outstanding about his play. Savior played like a mediocre Zerg, not his usual, world-dominating supremely impenetrable self. It's really kind of tragic. When was the last time Savior actually played like his normal self ZvT? Probably vs Nada, Shinhan3 OSL Finals Game 4. I agree with whoever said that Bisu "broke" him. Its funny, after Bisu you'd expect the new Protoss gen to start taking Savior down, but its been the opposite- Stork and Free steamrolled, but every other T player taking him down each tourney- FBH, Iris and now Mind... Iris and Hwasin both pushed him hard before he lost to Bisu.
The difference is, now they're not only pushing him, they're breaking him. And now its players like FBH and Mind who are no world-class Terrans like Hwasin or Iris... definitely not yet, anyway.
And even when Iris pushed him, Savior looked very dangerous, an impenetrably patient Zerg. OTOH at no point in this series did he really look threatening. Some cheesy crap in game 1, and stubbornly pushing fast hive rush twice sealed the deal. Even the games he won were hardly convincing.
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Mind is the next big thing..mark my words. He won't disapppoint me like By.FlaSh did, i can feel it. He seems REALLY solid and although we haven't seen his tvp yet, after interviewing mind, the announcers said that mind says tvp is his best matchup with tvz being the most fun as it progresses into mid game and tvt being the most boring.
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United States22883 Posts
On November 10 2007 06:47 KissBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2007 05:33 FieryBalrog wrote:On November 10 2007 05:29 Hot_Bid wrote:On November 10 2007 05:26 FieryBalrog wrote:
Mind played well, but I don't think there was anything that outstanding about his play. Savior played like a mediocre Zerg, not his usual, world-dominating supremely impenetrable self. It's really kind of tragic. When was the last time Savior actually played like his normal self ZvT? Probably vs Nada, Shinhan3 OSL Finals Game 4. I agree with whoever said that Bisu "broke" him. Its funny, after Bisu you'd expect the new Protoss gen to start taking Savior down, but its been the opposite- Stork and Free steamrolled, but every other T player taking him down each tourney- FBH, Iris and now Mind... I think it's very likely Savior doesn't view T as dangerous and slacked his practice against them significantly in an attempt to jack up his ZvP game against Bisu. Your belief is 100% baseless. We have no idea what happened to Savior but lets not make huge assumptions based on 0 evidence. Plus, it's not as if practice is some linear element that always makes you better as you do more and more of it.
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On November 10 2007 12:40 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2007 06:47 KissBlade wrote:On November 10 2007 05:33 FieryBalrog wrote:On November 10 2007 05:29 Hot_Bid wrote:On November 10 2007 05:26 FieryBalrog wrote:
Mind played well, but I don't think there was anything that outstanding about his play. Savior played like a mediocre Zerg, not his usual, world-dominating supremely impenetrable self. It's really kind of tragic. When was the last time Savior actually played like his normal self ZvT? Probably vs Nada, Shinhan3 OSL Finals Game 4. I agree with whoever said that Bisu "broke" him. Its funny, after Bisu you'd expect the new Protoss gen to start taking Savior down, but its been the opposite- Stork and Free steamrolled, but every other T player taking him down each tourney- FBH, Iris and now Mind... I think it's very likely Savior doesn't view T as dangerous and slacked his practice against them significantly in an attempt to jack up his ZvP game against Bisu. Your belief is 100% baseless. We have no idea what happened to Savior but lets not make huge assumptions based on 0 evidence. Plus, it's not as if practice is some linear element that always makes you better as you do more and more of it.
Savior would most likely have thought that Mind cant be THAT good in TvZ, so he doesnt need to practice the matchup to death. I don't think the idea that he didnt practice as much is baseless, it's logical that he wouldnt have focused as much on ZvT as he would against a stronger opponent in that situation.
..Mind was most likely least of his worries when practicing..
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