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For my choices of maps I'll pick #s 1-6 then give some suggestions in point form.
From Worst of the Best to Best of the Best (My Favourite Map Comes Last):
#1) *Light's Out*
Suggestions: I think having the 3rd base minerals slightly organised more towards the mains is maybe a good idea, then reduce the main's size on that front slightly (so there is still a gap between them). Also the central North & South Bases should maybe be reduced & have the gas geyser either towards the middle of the map (or if it's bad mining pathing for one of the bases over the other), then remove some minerals and set it on either the East or West. I just see little harass potential other than frontal attacks against the North & South bases as opposed to the East & West ones which are on high grounds (easy Zerg defences I think here for a big gain).
#2) *Paranoiid Androiid*
Suggestions: Reduce the size of the bridge between the Top-Right corner bases & maybe increase the size of the middle 1 slightly. I think also the 3rd base location is too easy to take & it maybe requires having a bit of risk with it when it comes to Terrans taking it quickly & Zergs taking & holding all 3 bases in 1 chokepoint. Maybe point the ramps into the centre of the map rather than having them look back towards the natural so much. It might also be a good idea to get a bit of gap between the minerals and the edge of the map as with most of these maps they're very very very hard to hit with non-frontal attacks (e.g. reavers or high templars, with mutas, lurker drops... or even vultures would have a hard time in those bases).
#3) *Ride of Valkyries II*
Suggestions: I think the 3rd bases (along the vertical borders of the map) ought to be pushed further Northwards away from the natural. With just a single mineral patch in the way between them, once it is gone it will too easy for two bases to be defended. Either that or have the minerals rotated a bit to face over the bridge somewhat (move the terrain around as needed too), because right now it looks like Frontal Pushes are easy & will work - giving Terrans and many Zergs a boost. But Arbitres & High Templars or Reavers will do nothing on this map. Considering too that it's not even a good Carrier map, I really would worry that Protoss would have to cheese most games on here without having crevices & gaps in the high ground in the middle. Vultures, Lings, Hydras/Lurkers, Siegetank/Goliath would all be a bit too strong on this map especially since Protoss doesn't really have a second base where they can have structures... so maybe altering the main to be slightly smaller and partially upgrading a top base in size might be useful to have Protoss units be capable of interacting with the high ground from multiple angles.
#4) *Sand Storm*
Suggestions: Holding Protoss in maybe Terrans in some circumstances, seems to be way too easy on a map like this if they ever get a position on you. A bridge right near a double tall ramp, that's also near a tall ramp that immediately connects to that other higher ground is just a circle of high ground/bridge choke-point that seems immediately scary to my eyes as there is no other way out really. I think pushing that TALLEST ridge back slightly away from the bridges and those 'CAGE looking things', even reduce the ramp near the cage just on the other side of the bridge... would maybe allow for strategic contains to work, but not just a consistent *I have overlapping waves of siege tanks on successive high grounds* for example.
#5) *Cursed Land*
Suggestions: This map looks really quite good, barely second for me (at the same highest position alongside Even Newer Peaks). The main problem I might see is that a meta might be figured out quickly here... Zerg base positionings
- bases 1-3/4 especially. I worry for Terrans with Mutas attacking the natural, I worry for Protoss with Tanks easily smashing probe lines at the natural & I worry for Zerg (just a little) & Terran a bit that there would be Dragoons or High Templar storms hitting the natural mineral lines too. Increase the thickness of the wall JUST up the ramp to the side of the natural's mineral line to 3 or even 4. Maybe get a bit of water spots too just below into the base on the lower ground too (push the base maybe 1 or 2 hexes further to the South for the Upper Right player & to the North for the Lower Left player. This would all reduce the ramp size by maybe 2-3 hexes and give a balanced push location that isn't too large, but also isn't small either.
#6) *Even Newer Peaks* (My Choice for Best Map)
Suggestions: Remove 2 of the eggs on the side closest to the centre (or 1 on each) and bring the sides of the map in a bit to close the new gap. By doing this you'll leave your slightly larger than normal choke open, but it won't be THAT big. I'm thinking bringing the edges away from the centre stops strong Zerg & Terran positionings/pushes from high ground as tanks and lurkers/hydras don't have even easier access to shoot you down and Protoss can dragoon flood down the ramp as easily. Then also cut down the diamond high grounds a bit and move the triangular bit backwards slightly (a few positions maybe 5 or 6 at most).
Artosis said he didn't think the map was quite there yet & I know my ideas would be different from his, but I see potential in this map. Really the only other worrisome thing for me is the ability to shell things in the enemy's main base if they try to hide buildings to the far South or North with tanks or even a few hydras on the edge. Turrets could be picked off before flying Arbitres or Shuttles in too! So widening the gap slightly might help there.
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On January 26 2023 07:48 Cronkonium wrote:
and bring the sides of the map in a bit to close the new gap.
Sorry i didn't get this part. which ssides? can you draw lines/marks using paint or using your phone?
but thank you for your ideas, we are also thinking to add a cliff behind the nats to muta harssment will be more powerful, maybe this solves the problem you pointed out. In case this maps gets into the next round, ee'll let you know when we make the changes!
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1.Even Newer Peaks
2.Paranoiid Androiid
3.Sand Storm
4.Lights Out
5.PasCal
6.Downfall of Moon
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1) Rita
2) Sand Storm
3) KF-21 Boramae
4) Winter Solstice
5) Orognu's Symbol
6) The Lost Temples
Honorable mentions for me: Starburst, Champion, and Nyxeos.
EDIT - just say to say thanks to organizers and mapmakers. Wasn't expecting to spend so much time looking through but it was pretty awesome. Will try to find time to play some of these this weekend.
EDIT 2 - did anyone try to do Gorky by chance? https://tl.net/tlpd/korean/maps/129_Gorky_Island
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1. Sand Storm
2. Lamentation
3. Rush Hour 4
4. KF-21 Boramae
5. The Lost Temples
6. Orognu’s Symbol
If Sand Storm ever makes it to the ladder mappool, I will be so happy
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1.The Lost Temples
2.Downfall of the moon
3. Ice Crystal
4. Halcyon
5. Neoxyeos
6. Huntress
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1. Winter Solstice
2. Paranoid Android (Testbug)
3. Halcyon
4. The Lost Temples
5. Blue Lagoon
6. Bllack Soulstones
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1.The Downfall of Moon
2. Sandstorm
3. Third Impact
4. Abyss
5. Lights Out
6. Rush Hour 4
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This has got to be one of the best things that happened to Broodwar in a decade. Very cool initiative.
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1. Paranoid Android (by Testbug)
2. Rudeltaktik
3. Abyss
4. Champion
5. River of City
6. Parasite
There are better maps that I didn't include, but I was judging them based on amount of improvement from original, the degree to which they maintained the sense/novelty of the original, the author's intent, and their playability. So some other maps were better but were barely different from the original, or they tried to change a legendary map maker's map and made it worse, or they greatly improved the map but it retained too little of the original, etc. I felt the maps I chose best combined the ideas of improvement, retaining the original idea, and remaining playable. I will say that I'm worried about the building space of Parasite, but with any luck it's still playable, perhaps as a 2v2 map as a last resort.
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On January 26 2023 09:30 Testbug[bwmn] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2023 07:48 Cronkonium wrote:
and bring the sides of the map in a bit to close the new gap. Sorry i didn't get this part. which ssides? can you draw lines/marks using paint or using your phone? but thank you for your ideas, we are also thinking to add a cliff behind the nats to muta harssment will be more powerful, maybe this solves the problem you pointed out. In case this maps gets into the next round, ee'll let you know when we make the changes!
Cronkonium seems to have voted like this.
* Voting Status
1. Even Newer Peaks (My Choice for Best Map)
2. Cursed Land (My second favorite map after Even Newer Peaks.)
3. Sand Storm
4. Ride of Valkyries II
5. Paranoiid Androiid
6. Light's Out
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1. Sand Storm
2. Third Impact
3. Blue Lagoon
4. The Lost Temples
5. Paradiso
6. Champion
As a Korean caster, I chose a map that has a relatively high probability of being selected in the ASL map pool.
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No, there is no remake of Gorky Island. You can see the list of new/old map names here much easier
I think the issue with Gorky Island was that it was heavily imbalanced towards Terran because of the cliff behind the main mineral line which could be dropped. That cliff was a defining characteristic of Gorky Island so a remake would probably need to include that cliff again. Doing so would make it an imbalanced map? Also, islands may be very difficult to balance or to please players because they don't seem to like island maps. For these reasons and perhaps others, I don't think it would have been a smart choice to select a map like Gorky Island to remake. But I would be interested in hearing your reasons for recreating it.
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On January 27 2023 11:43 Nightmarjoo wrote:
1. Paranoid Android (by Testbug)
2. Rudeltaktik
3. Abyss
4. Champion
5. River of City
6. Parasite
There are better maps that I didn't include, but I was judging them based on amount of improvement from original, the degree to which they maintained the sense/novelty of the original, the author's intent, and their playability. So some other maps were better but were barely different from the original, or they tried to change a legendary map maker's map and made it worse, or they greatly improved the map but it retained too little of the original, etc. I felt the maps I chose best combined the ideas of improvement, retaining the original idea, and remaining playable. I will say that I'm worried about the building space of Parasite, but with any luck it's still playable, perhaps as a 2v2 map as a last resort.
I'd take Parasite, just like the map it is based on, as a pure 2v2 map.
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1. Sand Storm
2. Ride of Valkyries II
3. The Lost Temples
4. Cursed Land
5. Abyss
6. KF-21 Boramae
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Map pack updated:
- Quandary – important updates and bugfixes
- Lamentation updated
- Nyxeos updated
- Winter Solstice updated
- Starburst – further bugfixes
- Rita – further bugfixes and mining optimizations
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On January 27 2023 14:17 ox.tQ wrote:No, there is no remake of Gorky Island. You can see the list of new/old map names here much easier I think the issue with Gorky Island was that it was heavily imbalanced towards Terran because of the cliff behind the main mineral line which could be dropped. That cliff was a defining characteristic of Gorky Island so a remake would probably need to include that cliff again. Doing so would make it an imbalanced map? Also, islands may be very difficult to balance or to please players because they don't seem to like island maps. For these reasons and perhaps others, I don't think it would have been a smart choice to select a map like Gorky Island to remake. But I would be interested in hearing your reasons for recreating it.
Thanks for the link, this is great.
Re. Gorky - probably just nostalgia mainly. I 'memba some really early "competitive" 1v1 games there (maybe on WGTour? or maybe even just with friends) but I totally agree - not a great map at any point in hindsight. Valhalla was a better ask since it was a bit more competitive but as mentioned, island maps hard asf to balance (probably moreso today).
Gorky specifically you can deny the Terran CC early pretty easy right? Wouldn't be the first map to do that in recent years.. And less important but it does mean something for me - I love the grass/snow on that one but can understand the reasons why that tileset is used less often; some compromise with less ice should be possible like Tau Cross though.
I'd agree that keeping either Gorky or Valhalla as permanent islands is not gonna work maybe like an Arkanoid type spin on either while still keeping some of the low/highground layouts? I know it goes a lot further than that and I'm outta my depth here so just spit-ballin.
Edit - I guess a re-hash of my question is - did anyone try Gorky or Valhalla but not submit to the contest?
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1. Winter Solstice
2. Huntress
3. Sand Storm
4. Paradiso
5. Lost in Paradise
6. Third Impact
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1. Champion by mAziciAn
2. KF-21 Boramae by DQ_MAN
3. Jungle Book by j0j0
4. Third Impact by DQ_Man
5. Rita by Freakling
6. Neverland by Hozzi
7. Lights Out by j0j0
8. Raiden by TNWZombie
9. Halcyon by Lucifer_Kor
10. Blue Lagoon by KM-
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EPT
