EPT
[ASL11] Ro8 Day 3
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Recommended Games + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler [Set 1] + The kind of match everyone who likes this matchup hates and those who don't understand ask "how?" + Show Spoiler [Set 2] + Yes. Entertaining game, fantastic holds. + Show Spoiler [Set 3] + Good game, worth a watch. + Show Spoiler [Set 4] + Watch if you like an extended mauling. + Show Spoiler [Set 5] + | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50466 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8336 Posts
 Going with hero on LB for this one! His 500 apm must get the job done  | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13181 Posts
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arbiter_md
Moldova1219 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50466 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4212 Posts
go go Snow ! | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13181 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50466 Posts
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arbiter_md
Moldova1219 Posts
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M2
Bulgaria4127 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13181 Posts
Hero is probably the best zerg at executing hydra busts too. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13181 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13181 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13181 Posts
Hero's hydra micro a bit sloppy. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50466 Posts
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LpTraxamillion
265 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13181 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13181 Posts
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Miragee
8564 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4212 Posts
GG | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13181 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4438 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13181 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4212 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50466 Posts
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ggsimida
1148 Posts
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Miragee
8564 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13181 Posts
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1709 Posts
He has some decent micro but generally I dont trust his army engagement against toss with a good amount of storms. He should really lean towards just applying pressure but not committing to an attack and just expand like crazy behind that until he gets an insurmountable economic lead. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13181 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13181 Posts
Edit: as I say that, maybe not. He's transitioning into fourth. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13181 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4438 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13181 Posts
 He's gonna need a miracle. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13181 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia382 Posts
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13181 Posts
On May 16 2021 20:46 Rainalcar wrote: Still amazed with people convinced that ZvP is balanced. Hmmm, Snow was outplayed. I wouldn't blame this on balance. His reaction to the lurker drops was bad and it cost him. | ||
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1709 Posts
On May 16 2021 20:46 Rainalcar wrote: Still amazed with people convinced that ZvP is balanced. It was balanced when Flash was around to kill Z | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6709 Posts
On May 16 2021 20:46 Rainalcar wrote: Still amazed with people convinced that ZvP is balanced. Indeed.Snow played so bad but still managed to put a good fight vs HerO a zvp god. | ||
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Miragee
8564 Posts
On May 16 2021 20:46 Rainalcar wrote: Still amazed with people convinced that ZvP is balanced. Still amazed people make comments like this. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50466 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6709 Posts
On May 16 2021 20:50 BLinD-RawR wrote: I do believe that not expecting lurker drops from hero is a bad assumption to make. Specially without spire. | ||
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arbiter_md
Moldova1219 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8336 Posts
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oxKnu
1207 Posts
I do agree with a previous post that now that Flash is not here to clean up the zergs, they'll start running rampant and truly dominate ASL. It started last season and I think it will continue until whenever ASL is discontinued. (maybe 3 more seasons). I don't think Rush is complete of a player and strong enough in offline settings to put up enough resistance on his own. | ||
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TMNT
2904 Posts
On May 16 2021 20:24 RowdierBob wrote: Snow needed to use Bisu's build from KCM against Larva. 2 gate cair, dominate the air into zeal/ht/archon/reaver push. He let Hero expand and macro way too easily. I'm not sure it's the build to actually beat this 4 base turtle Zerg on Ultimate Stream though. In that game Larva pretty much tried to ling all in Bisu, which didn't work. After that he was left with nothing, hence Bisu could go double Stargate and massacre the overlords and build up an insurmountable lead. Ultimate Stream is almost a guaranteed win for Zerg if they use this strategy. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On May 16 2021 20:58 oxKnu wrote: Crappy Ro8. Bad, non-competitive series all around. These maps are not good. I do agree with a previous post that now that Flash is not here to clean up the zergs, they'll start running rampant and truly dominate ASL. It started last season and I think it will continue until whenever ASL is discontinued. (maybe 3 more seasons). I don't think Rush is complete of a player and strong enough in offline settings to put up enough resistance on his own. Agreed. Balance or imbalance, it's just not conducive for the scene to have another consecutive ASL with 3Z in SF and ZvZ in Finals. At least Flash dominating ASL was more interesting the same way a John Wick action flick is. One race dominating the other two races over and over again with the same old tricks (hydra bust and muta balls) is just boring. Even with Flash kicking ass, the games were dynamic because his opponents were throwing different curve-balls to take him down. I really hope the map pool will be refreshed to diminish some of Zerg's early and mid-game advantages going forward (maybe even minor touches like eliminating 'spotter' zones for overlords to camp unharmed). | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4438 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6709 Posts
On May 16 2021 21:31 RKC wrote: Agreed. Balance or imbalance, it's just not conducive for the scene to have another consecutive ASL with 3Z in SF and ZvZ in Finals. At least Flash dominating ASL was more interesting the same way a John Wick action flick is. One race dominating the other two races over and over again with the same old tricks (hydra bust and muta balls) is just boring. Even with Flash kicking ass, the games were dynamic because his opponents were throwing different curve-balls to take him down. I really hope the map pool will be refreshed to diminish some of Zerg's early and mid-game advantages going forward (maybe even minor touches like eliminating 'spotter' zones for overlords to camp unharmed). Well But zerg and zvz is part of Starcraft.Lets no forget Flash loss semifinals to zero later on loss semis to Soma playing random.If you look at the round of 8 balance do you have 3 zergs 3 protoss 2 terrans. The reality is that zero is the best zerg player there is been in Starcraft now.You could only wish Bisu get his shit together in ASL and smash zergs again like he always does on his regular streams.I think if Rush beat larva we are going to have a zerg vs terran final. Zero vs Rush. I cant see hero beating rush. | ||
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TMNT
2904 Posts
On May 16 2021 21:37 Magic Powers wrote: Was rooting for Snow, but his PvZ still doesn't look polished enough. He rarely blunders and he has great army management, those seem to be his strong points. Hard to say what exactly cost him the match, but it surely wasn't down to luck. Game 1 he died from a hydra burst which is of no shame. All Protosses die from that. It's just the nature of the match up. Game 2 he won, so nothing to say here. Game 3 the map heavily favors Zerg with that strategy. Not much else he could do. Game 4 the lurker drops cost him the game. That's his "big" mistake. But it's no bigger a mistake than, say a Terran/Zerg not being able to dodge a storm drop in time (see game 3 where the storm/reaver drops did nothing to Zerg's econ). On the other hand, Hero did not do anything particularly special, he just played his standard game. I know this opinion may trigger some, but imo overall Snow did not play bad, he just didn't play good enough to overcome the deficit Protoss has to overcome in this match up and this map pool. | ||
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TornadoSteve
1079 Posts
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orth0dox
28 Posts
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Scarlett`
Canada2389 Posts
Snow just didn't play very well today especially on the earlygame I would much rather play on this map pool than previous ASL seasons or BSL map pool | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19276 Posts
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Piste
6179 Posts
 herO has the best ZvP on the planet. | ||
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Lazyer
United States362 Posts
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Scarlett`
Canada2389 Posts
On May 17 2021 02:38 BisuDagger wrote: Glad my research paid off here. Gotta say though, this map pool was the best possible for Protoss. If mini gets similar maps in the ro4, he will be in the finals. Wondering where you got the winrate stats for the preview? It seemed to differ quite a bit from sponbbang stats For example this is map winrates for 2021 only: http://sponbbang.com/race/?month1=2021-01&month2=2021-05&bj= | ||
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JohnnyBlaze420
Australia814 Posts
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LpTraxamillion
265 Posts
On May 16 2021 20:58 oxKnu wrote: Crappy Ro8. Bad, non-competitive series all around. These maps are not good. I do agree with a previous post that now that Flash is not here to clean up the zergs, they'll start running rampant and truly dominate ASL. It started last season and I think it will continue until whenever ASL is discontinued. (maybe 3 more seasons). I don't think Rush is complete of a player and strong enough in offline settings to put up enough resistance on his own. Relax, rush hasn't even played yet and is a favorite to make finals if not win ASL. Also not all just balance, zerg has the most top tier active players so they should be overrepresented at the end of tournaments. Zero, Soma, Hero, Soulkey, Larva, Action- all go 50/50 with the beat players from every race. Toss only has Snow, Mini, Best, Bisu (id take the best zergs over all of these players in general). Terran only has Rush and Light left, then a few other players on the come up like Royal and JyJ | ||
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LpTraxamillion
265 Posts
Let's wait and see how this plays out. Mini has the best PvZ right now and could beat Zero while Rush will be favored over Hero after he beats Larva. | ||
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LpTraxamillion
265 Posts
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LpTraxamillion
265 Posts
On May 16 2021 22:07 TMNT wrote: Game 1 he died from a hydra burst which is of no shame. All Protosses die from that. It's just the nature of the match up. Game 2 he won, so nothing to say here. Game 3 the map heavily favors Zerg with that strategy. Not much else he could do. Game 4 the lurker drops cost him the game. That's his "big" mistake. But it's no bigger a mistake than, say a Terran/Zerg not being able to dodge a storm drop in time (see game 3 where the storm/reaver drops did nothing to Zerg's econ). On the other hand, Hero did not do anything particularly special, he just played his standard game. I know this opinion may trigger some, but imo overall Snow did not play bad, he just didn't play good enough to overcome the deficit Protoss has to overcome in this match up and this map pool. Losing an entire fully saturated Protoss probe line at that point in the game (early 3 base) is far worse than not dodging a storm drop (which generally come later in the game and the minerals are not nearly as saturated - plus zerg can replenish workers far faster with Larva). Toss should lose every single game this happens there is really no excuse. Not only did he not see it on the minimap, he didn't even react to the audio warning after the first spine shots. This was more akin to not reacting at all to a marine drop at 10-12 minutes that wipes out the Zerg 3rd or main = GG. Or letting a DT wipe out an entire mineral line undetected (which is more understandable since there is nothing on the minimap and no sound cue). Zergs have to react perfectly to these things multiple times per game or they lose. Instantly spotting dropships and reacting with scourge and army positioning. Seeing shuttles lategame and dodging the storms. Really was a huge blunder letting those lurkers wreck all those probes - that cost Snow the series. He obviously wasn't ready for it at all because it hasn't been a popular move ZvP lately but if he had been watching Hero's games at all it should have been in the back of his mind. | ||
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LpTraxamillion
265 Posts
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JoinTheRain
Bulgaria409 Posts
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oxKnu
1207 Posts
On May 17 2021 03:02 Piste wrote: Snow winning this would have been upset herO has the best ZvP on the planet.That's not...even close to being the case. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4127 Posts
On May 17 2021 04:21 LpTraxamillion wrote: Losing an entire fully saturated Protoss probe line at that point in the game (early 3 base) is far worse than not dodging a storm drop (which generally come later in the game and the minerals are not nearly as saturated - plus zerg can replenish workers far faster with Larva). Toss should lose every single game this happens there is really no excuse. Not only did he not see it on the minimap, he didn't even react to the audio warning after the first spine shots. This was more akin to not reacting at all to a marine drop at 10-12 minutes that wipes out the Zerg 3rd or main = GG. Or letting a DT wipe out an entire mineral line undetected (which is more understandable since there is nothing on the minimap and no sound cue). Zergs have to react perfectly to these things multiple times per game or they lose. Instantly spotting dropships and reacting with scourge and army positioning. Seeing shuttles lategame and dodging the storms. Really was a huge blunder letting those lurkers wreck all those probes - that cost Snow the series. He obviously wasn't ready for it at all because it hasn't been a popular move ZvP lately but if he had been watching Hero's games at all it should have been in the back of his mind. I dont think that ZvP is really fair but is close enough to say that snow played sloppy overall and mostly lost because of this | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19276 Posts
On May 17 2021 03:30 Scarlett` wrote: Wondering where you got the winrate stats for the preview? It seemed to differ quite a bit from sponbbang stats For example this is map winrates for 2021 only: http://sponbbang.com/race/?month1=2021-01&month2=2021-05&bj= TLPD stats from the top bar of TL. For SC2 they stopped using TLPD during HoTS, but it is still updated regularly for SC1. | ||
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TMNT
2904 Posts
On May 17 2021 06:19 BisuDagger wrote: TLPD stats from the top bar of TL. For SC2 they stopped using TLPD during HoTS, but it is still updated regularly for SC1. Whatever sources you are using for the stats, it doesn't seem right. If a map offers 66 or 77% win rate for one race, it's either the map is really fucked up, or the stats come from a very small sample size. Stats from sponbbang is the correct one to use: sample size is great, and it's games between Korean pros. Here's the win rate for Protoss in PvZ in the maps played today: Hidden Track (41.4%), Ascension (54%), Ultimate Stream (44.7%), Eclipse (49.4%). So yeah, it does reflect the result though. | ||
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oxKnu
1207 Posts
Ascension has been pretty cool, there's been some interesting macro games on that map. Not in ASL though. Ultimate Stream is a grind that almost always seem to go the Zerg's way. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19276 Posts
On May 17 2021 08:15 TMNT wrote: Whatever sources you are using for the stats, it doesn't seem right. If a map offers 66 or 77% win rate for one race, it's either the map is really fucked up, or the stats come from a very small sample size. Stats from sponbbang is the correct one to use: sample size is great, and it's games between Korean pros. Here's the win rate for Protoss in PvZ in the maps played today: Hidden Track (41.4%), Ascension (54%), Ultimate Stream (44.7%), Eclipse (49.4%). So yeah, it does reflect the result though. Map stats are based on the current ASL. | ||
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chillzzz
30 Posts
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reincremate
China2216 Posts
On May 17 2021 09:42 chillzzz wrote: Snow's play in g1 looked ok to me, can someone explain what he did wrong that made him die to the 3hh? Hero is inhumanly good at squeezing out just the right number of hydras at the right time (in case you wanted the basic lay viewer explanation). | ||
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Scarlett`
Canada2389 Posts
On May 17 2021 09:42 chillzzz wrote: Snow's play in g1 looked ok to me, can someone explain what he did wrong that made him die to the 3hh? his wall in was a mess with the battery under the forge and the pylon positions but he tried to defend the +1 on forge anyway which cost him the game building extra cannons on the back row first and cancelling +1 immediately/ making a new forge in main is the safer way to play that; he also wont have to fight as aggressively with the zealots in that case | ||
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TMNT
2904 Posts
Hence it doesn't make sense. The sample size is really irrelevant. You can't base on only a handful of games and claim one map pool is good for a race or not and make bold predictions. For example Eclipse is a fairly balanced map and has been there for a while, but based on your preview it's almost a guarateed win for Zerg because it has 67% winrate. Likewise with the guaranteed win for Protoss on US because of the 77% winrate (which is based on like 3-4 games?). | ||
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Destroyer
Czech Republic936 Posts
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LpTraxamillion
265 Posts
On May 17 2021 17:59 Destroyer wrote: I'd say Hero's immense practicting time is simply paying off. He was playing and streaming really a LOT recently. His ro16 group win and recent win over Snow is no suprice for those who follow/watch him. Yea agreed, he has been a beat on his stream the last couple months | ||
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