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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
Shine was one of the best Zergs in form towin a championship? Isn't Bisu 5-6 vs him or something in tourny? I get it, you're a Bisu stan--cool, so am I. I still don't let my critical thinking fly by the wayside. Assuming the mini stat is true, it obviously doesn't necessarily make him the best P v Z. But it surely raises the barrier of entry. Bisu can't coast off reputation anymore. Let's see the work shown! Plus, let's be real, Bisu isn't even relevant for the next year, year and a half. | ||
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mierin
United States4946 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
in all seriousness, effort's lings are insane. i have not seen a zerg win so many skirmishes at so many different times all over the map. he is so good at dividing and conquering with fast units not to mention his muta control. in game three he forced mind to use 3 irridates to kill 2 of its 5 mutas when he wasn't even seriously going mutas. that just the threat of him owning those units warrants such a counter-investment pretty much tells the story of the series | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19400 Posts
On February 25 2019 03:59 KamMoye wrote: #showyourwork Shine was one of the best Zergs in form towin a championship? Isn't Bisu 5-6 vs him or something in tourny? I get it, you're a Bisu stan--cool, so am I. I still don't let my critical thinking fly by the wayside. Assuming the mini stat is true, it obviously doesn't necessarily make him the best P v Z. But it surely raises the barrier of entry. Bisu can't coast off reputation anymore. Let's see the work shown! Plus, let's be real, Bisu isn't even relevant for the next year, year and a half. Shine finished with a silver and was regarded as one of the best during that tournament. His other bronze/silver finishes were losses exclusively to top form hero and effort. I love being asked to show my work because I dont brag about Bisu. I only argue with facts. I also never argued Bisu was the premier PvZer. I think he has definitely been wobbly regarding the matchup. However he did pioneer a protoss renaissance versus zerg twice with his bisu build 2.0 and pretty much was the only protoss winning versus zergs during the sonic era. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
On February 25 2019 06:20 BisuDagger wrote: Shine finished with a silver and was regarded as one of the best during that tournament. His other bronze/silver finishes were losses exclusively to top form hero and effort. I love being asked to show my work because I dont brag about Bisu. I only argue with facts. I also never argued Bisu was the premier PvZer. I think he has definitely been wobbly regarding the matchup. However he did pioneer a protoss renaissance versus zerg twice with his bisu build 2.0 and pretty much was the only protoss winning versus zergs during the sonic era. curious, if not then who? i wasn't watching much bw during this era so i would like to see some games by those playas | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
On February 25 2019 05:27 Dazed. wrote: I think Mini is a super high volatility player, if he ever gets himself under emotional control, I think he has serious untapped potential. As is, hes hit or miss. i agree. i really liked his play during the last 2 seasons with some funky maps. he showed an ability to adapt. he seems to be more a brainy protoss rather than a hit perfect timings be super fast hit every storm perfectly and quickly. I think this type of player can get in his own head too much and lose to things he know he shouldn't which just frustrates him more. sc2 reference, MC was like this in the early days of the GSL for anyone who knows/cares xD | ||
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Li_Xin
51 Posts
On February 25 2019 03:59 KamMoye wrote: #showyourwork Shine was one of the best Zergs in form towin a championship? Isn't Bisu 5-6 vs him or something in tourny? I get it, you're a Bisu stan--cool, so am I. I still don't let my critical thinking fly by the wayside. Assuming the mini stat is true, it obviously doesn't necessarily make him the best P v Z. But it surely raises the barrier of entry. Bisu can't coast off reputation anymore. Let's see the work shown! Plus, let's be real, Bisu isn't even relevant for the next year, year and a half. I THINK the mini stat is talking solely about his PvZ in the ASL. So if you added his PvZ stats from KSL2 (which was recent) his winrate would drop, since his PvZ was a total of 6-8 (42.8%) in that tournament. Bisu had above a 70% winrate in PvZ during his entire career. I can't think of even a single other Protoss that had even a 60% winrate in PvZ. He is so by far the best in that matchup you can't even argue that anyone else is even close to him without sounding like a complete buffoon. As for trying to discredit his PvZ based off of his winrate against Shine... man come on... I think the combination of hearing about his ASL stats and watching him beat the hell out of Calm (who played some of the worst ZvP games I've ever seen) has made you think that Mini is the new PvZ god. He's really not. Rain has terrible stats in PvZ, but I think he has by far the strongest PvZ right now. | ||
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
On February 25 2019 06:59 Li_Xin wrote: I THINK the mini stat is talking solely about his PvZ in the ASL. So if you added his PvZ stats from KSL2 (which was recent) his winrate would drop, since his PvZ was a total of 6-8 (42.8%) in that tournament. Bisu had above a 70% winrate in PvZ during his entire career. I can't think of even a single other Protoss that had even a 60% winrate in PvZ. He is so by far the best in that matchup you can't even argue that anyone else is even close to him without sounding like a complete buffoon. As for trying to discredit his PvZ based off of his winrate against Shine... man come on... I think the combination of hearing about his ASL stats and watching him beat the hell out of Calm (who played some of the worst ZvP games I've ever seen) has made you think that Mini is the new PvZ god. He's really not. Rain has terrible stats in PvZ, but I think he has by far the strongest PvZ right now. Thanks for the clarification. Please stop goalpost shifting and strawmanning. Read more closely. When did I ever say Bisu wasn't the best PvZ in history? Come on man, I said earlier I am a huge Bisu fan. Been following the scene closely since '08. None of what you said in your second paragraph had anything to do specifically with what I said. You took the Shine quote out of context. I think you're projecting and jumping to conclusions. On February 25 2019 06:20 BisuDagger wrote: Shine finished with a silver and was regarded as one of the best during that tournament. His other bronze/silver finishes were losses exclusively to top form hero and effort. I love being asked to show my work because I dont brag about Bisu. I only argue with facts. https://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/players/623_Shine/games/during/5096_AfreecaStarleagueS3 Weak fields is the only time Shine can do damage. He's a good player but has zero potential to be S-class. I'll glady go on record with that. He got washed in Finals and only got to Silver with help from an amazing bracket. You gotta be really struggling to say Shine was ever a strong contender to take a tournament over a competitive field. I also never argued Bisu was the premier PvZer. I think he has definitely been wobbly regarding the matchup. However he did pioneer a protoss renaissance versus zerg twice with his bisu build 2.0 and pretty much was the only protoss winning versus zergs during the sonic era. Yeah, he's definitely the premier vZ, but the wobbliness post-Kespa is inexcusable imo, precisely for the acomplishments you listed (and many more). The only Zergs who should even put up a fight are Soulkey and Effort. Bisu's post-Kespa career has been a massive failure iyam. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19400 Posts
On February 25 2019 06:24 Alejandrisha wrote: curious, if not then who? i wasn't watching much bw during this era so i would like to see some games by those playas There really hasnt been a star in PvZ since Kespa. Some of the other players with brief PvZ peaks would be BeSt (briefly) and Movie actually performed quite well using gateway expands to great success. Most like due to the repetitive map pool during the sonic era. Replying to another comment now: Regarding Bisu's success, I am not sure how anyone could see it as a failure. Bisu went from a massive individual league drought in the Kespa era into returning to SC1 by winning multiple golds , silvers, and bronzes, all while being the ONLY successful protoss player during that time. And it wasn't until he went into the military did other protoss players actually start to shine. (Other notables during his time would be Tyson->Movie->Shuttle in chronological order). | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
On February 25 2019 09:35 BisuDagger wrote: There really hasnt been a star in PvZ since Kespa. Some of the other players with brief PvZ peaks would be BeSt (briefly) and Movie actually performed quite well using gateway expands to great success. Most like due to the repetitive map pool during the sonic era. Replying to another comment now: Regarding Bisu's success, I am not sure how anyone could see it as a failure. Bisu went from a massive individual league drought in the Kespa era into returning to SC1 by winning multiple golds , silvers, and bronzes, all while being the ONLY successful protoss player during that time. And it wasn't until he went into the military did other protoss players actually start to shine. (Other notables during his time would be Tyson->Movie->Shuttle in chronological order). thanks. i didn't think there was one. best has been disappointing to say the least. rain is not as good as his tastosis hype. there is a dearth in protoss talent and there has been one for a while now. 2 players does not a race make | ||
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JoinTheRain
Bulgaria409 Posts
On February 25 2019 04:49 Anc13nt wrote: Pretty crazy how Effort went from consistently losing ro16 to becoming clear favourite in ASL.I know he was unlucky with ZvZ in the earlier seasons but I don't think most people knew he was actually this good. People hype Soulkey and with sound reasoning. But effort, when he's hungry for good games and display of skill, is truly unstoppable. He was so pre-SC2 and he is now. I love to watch the ferocity with which he tears players apart. It all makes total sense when I watch his games, now I kill these marines here, now here, then boom - a big fight happens and you have 12 marines less than you're supposed to so you lose the fight and 3 min later - the game will be mine. He even did it to Flash, countering his builds in an immaculate fashion in the ASL6 finals. Effort is stunning and I do not even like watching zerg players. But he is exceptional. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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mca64
Poland7 Posts
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
In this enviromment, Flash, Bisu, Soulkey, Effort, now Rain, and maybe one or two others actually had elite talent. Best, Stork, Jaedong, Sea, etc.? Washed. Actually, that's a bit harsh on Best; he doesn't belong in that group, but he neither belongs in the Rain/Soulkey/etc. group either. Despite this post-Kespa climate Bisu has never been a dominant player. Bisu is more like a fashion model--his play style is glamorous and fabulous, but lacks an essential "meat," and ends up malnourished all too often when the odds are clearly stacked in his favor. Oh well, enough about Bisu, he's irrelevant for another year at least. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
On February 26 2019 07:50 KamMoye wrote: In the post-Kespa era there has been maybe 30% of the competition there was during Proleague era. It's no comparison. Only now, within the past year, is it truly beginning to revive, and it's still nowhere near Proleague era. There are no Stats or Boguses anymore; Larva and hero are Stats and Bogus level now, except Larva and hero were around back then, too, so it's still a net loss. In this enviromment, Flash, Bisu, Soulkey, Effort, now Rain, and maybe one or two others actually had elite talent. Best, Stork, Jaedong, Sea, etc.? Washed. Actually, that's a bit harsh on Best; he doesn't belong in that group, but he neither belongs in the Rain/Soulkey/etc. group either. Despite this post-Kespa climate Bisu has never been a dominant player. Bisu is more like a fashion model--his play style is glamorous and fabulous, but lacks an essential "meat," and ends up malnourished all too often when the odds are clearly stacked in his favor. Oh well, enough about Bisu, he's irrelevant for another year at least. what's your fucking point? User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
On February 26 2019 11:55 Alejandrisha wrote: what's your fucking point? User was temp banned for this post. let me clarify. your first paragraph-- you say inno and stats were good in the past and that larva and hero are good now. i don't understand how that means anything. there are players and the players keep changing as people retire and play sc2. gotcha. your second paragraph. you glossed over a bunch of names of progamers ok. yeah the old guard is retired so we have new blood then you go on to talk about bisu the only player who all protosses envy and watch. his win rate should be good enough to say he 's not trash but the conclusion of your post is basically that. so i will ask again, what is the point of your post? are you trying to further some discussion not in the thread or are you happy about the new talent pool in bw? it's all very difficult to decipher | ||
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