EPT
[ASL7] Ro8 Day 2 - Mind vs EffOrt
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BLinD-RawR
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Li_Xin
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On February 24 2019 13:01 NoS-Craig wrote: Predicting Effort to win 3-0 and then go on to win the entire tournament. Of course, I've been wrong a lot before. Not sure who beats Effort. EffOrt is so inconsistent. For many seasons now I've been telling people "When EffOrt is playing good he's the only player that can beat Flash in a ZvT best of 5" and every season (until last ASL) he's been eliminated straight off the bat either to ZvZ or just playing poorly and people call me crazy. Finally the season that I stop telling people he's the only Zerg that can beat Flash in a bo5 (he was playing worse than ever so I gave up on him when he started having wrist problems) he goes and beats Flash in ASL finals =\ Lately he's been looking super strong so I would consider him a favorite to win the tournament, but I'm not surprised any more when he loses to anyone lol. Mind has been all over the place too so it's hard to say where he's at. In contrast to his PvZ performances in the last few seasons, Rain has been looking very strong in PvZ lately on stream. Really hoping to see a Rain vs EffOrt finals. Rain seems to be the best now with Flash gone. | ||
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bovienchien
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Motivate
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BLinD-RawR
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nvm lmao | ||
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On February 24 2019 19:25 NoS-Craig wrote: Wow, Mind I thought you had that game. out-positioned | ||
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On February 24 2019 19:04 Motivate wrote: hope effort tears this nub a new one Minds a nub lol ok. Effort stayed calm even though those Vultures did damage. Pretty good game by Effort. | ||
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bovienchien
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Motivate
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On February 24 2019 19:27 NoS-Craig wrote: Minds a nub lol ok. Effort stayed calm even though those Vultures did damage. Pretty good game by Effort. i was just being playful mind is alright for a pro.... extremely inconsistent though. his micro has never impressed me. anyone remember the 5 kill probe best had | ||
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elpolloloco31
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Hot_Bid
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Go effort | ||
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KamMoye
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On February 24 2019 20:09 NoS-Craig wrote: Well, Mind at least you tried. Effort is the strongest player in Starcraft right now anyway. Still Flash. How about we see Effort take first here *and* beat Flash in KSL. Don't disrespect The Ultimate Weapon. | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32276 Posts
On February 24 2019 20:11 KamMoye wrote: Still Flash. How about we see Effort take first here *and* beat Flash in KSL. Don't disrespect The Ultimate Weapon. *and* do a somersault over a bed of nails. | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3119 Posts
On February 24 2019 20:11 KamMoye wrote: Still Flash. How about we see Effort take first here *and* beat Flash in KSL. Don't disrespect The Ultimate Weapon. No need to get angry at me man. Just an opinion I meant no disrespect to anyone. Chill dude. Mind can still come back and win but at the moment I feel Effort is just really strong right now. | ||
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On February 24 2019 20:15 IntoTheWow wrote: *and* do a somersault over a bed of nails. *and* cast everything in english | ||
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ggsimida
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On February 24 2019 20:26 Dante08 wrote: Zergs have gotten so good that 5 rax +1 does not work well anymore on the other hand 1 mistake from the zerg is all it takes for everything to crumble, its still a scary build | ||
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Jackal03
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effort on the ro4! | ||
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top PvZ vs top ZvP | ||
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geod
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oxKnu
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On February 24 2019 20:40 Highgamer wrote: I agree that APM is not useless, but in Efforts case whatever he does can be done with 100 APM less xD Which would still be about 120 more than Mind's average. | ||
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Highgamer
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Qikz
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On February 24 2019 20:41 Dante08 wrote: I don't think Mini has top PvZ. At least not enough to challenge Effort or Soulkey in a Bo5 He's definitely got the best PvZ now that both Bisu and Shuttle are out. | ||
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oxKnu
1193 Posts
On February 24 2019 21:45 Qikz wrote: He's definitely got the best PvZ now that both Bisu and Shuttle are out. I'd take Rain, but to each his own. No choice would be as clear as Bisu on his good days though. | ||
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Rodya
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outscar
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I can definitely feel the lack of good terrans this season - no FlaSh, Sea on military, Light getting cheesed, Mong not living up to expectations I think Last and Sharp are last hopes of terran. Talking about Sharp he really has a chance to get a revenge on Last due to his wrist problems. | ||
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Garrl
Scotland1974 Posts
On February 25 2019 00:19 outscar wrote: EffOrt played rock solid, he's on another tier. Mind could win last game but losing vessels and throwing dropships - does he even use scan before blindly unloading everything - cost him the game. to be fair, scanning the main randomly that late into the game is a massive red warning sign that you're going to drop it. | ||
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Disregard
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KamMoye
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On February 24 2019 20:17 NoS-Craig wrote: No need to get angry at me man. Just an opinion I meant no disrespect to anyone. Chill dude. Mind can still come back and win but at the moment I feel Effort is just really strong right now. I wasn't angry. My opinion is no more special than yours. I'm not a Flash fan, I'm actually a Bisu fan. I don't know why people are saying this was an Effort teardown. It was actually quite close. It *probably*should have been 3-2 Effort, but Mind had legitimate chances to take the set. He played extremely well and showed he's still quite the force in a BoX. On February 24 2019 21:56 oxKnu wrote: I'd take Rain, but to each his own. No choice would be as clear as Bisu on his good days though. During the cast Tasteless mentioned: A) This was minis 23rd consecutive vZ offline match (sounds unbelievable, did I really hear this?) B) Mini would have the best PvZ win % if any Toss, including Bisu and Rain, if he 3-1 or betterr'd calm Mini is a hypermegaelite player. He's like Last a few years ago. Just a matter of time before he starts consistently dominating. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19270 Posts
On February 25 2019 02:58 KamMoye wrote: I wasn't angry. My opinion is no more special than yours. I'm not a Flash fan, I'm actually a Bisu fan. I don't know why people are saying this was an Effort teardown. It was actually quite close. It *probably*should have been 3-2 Effort, but Mind had legitimate chances to take the set. He played extremely well and showed he's still quite the force in a BoX. During the cast Tasteless mentioned: A) This was minis 23rd consecutive vZ offline match (sounds unbelievable, did I really hear this?) B) Mini would have the best PvZ win % if any Toss, including Bisu and Rain, if he 3-1 or betterr'd calm Mini is a hypermegaelite player. He's like Last a few years ago. Just a matter of time before he starts consistently dominating. The stats comparison to Bisu doesn't work though. Bisu played far less PvZs in the ro32 thru ro8. So when Bisu did meet Zergs he met the best Zergs who were in form enough to win the championships. Which means that Bisu's losses were to far tougher opponents then mini. Mini has been adding victories against middle and low tier zergs. On it's own, yes it is an impressive stat, but under a microscope it falls short. That's why the argument for Rain being a better PvZer then Mini could hold up to. His losses to Zergs come in the Ro8 onward also. | ||
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
Shine was one of the best Zergs in form towin a championship? Isn't Bisu 5-6 vs him or something in tourny? I get it, you're a Bisu stan--cool, so am I. I still don't let my critical thinking fly by the wayside. Assuming the mini stat is true, it obviously doesn't necessarily make him the best P v Z. But it surely raises the barrier of entry. Bisu can't coast off reputation anymore. Let's see the work shown! Plus, let's be real, Bisu isn't even relevant for the next year, year and a half. | ||
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mierin
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Dazed.
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Alejandrisha
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in all seriousness, effort's lings are insane. i have not seen a zerg win so many skirmishes at so many different times all over the map. he is so good at dividing and conquering with fast units not to mention his muta control. in game three he forced mind to use 3 irridates to kill 2 of its 5 mutas when he wasn't even seriously going mutas. that just the threat of him owning those units warrants such a counter-investment pretty much tells the story of the series | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19270 Posts
On February 25 2019 03:59 KamMoye wrote: #showyourwork Shine was one of the best Zergs in form towin a championship? Isn't Bisu 5-6 vs him or something in tourny? I get it, you're a Bisu stan--cool, so am I. I still don't let my critical thinking fly by the wayside. Assuming the mini stat is true, it obviously doesn't necessarily make him the best P v Z. But it surely raises the barrier of entry. Bisu can't coast off reputation anymore. Let's see the work shown! Plus, let's be real, Bisu isn't even relevant for the next year, year and a half. Shine finished with a silver and was regarded as one of the best during that tournament. His other bronze/silver finishes were losses exclusively to top form hero and effort. I love being asked to show my work because I dont brag about Bisu. I only argue with facts. I also never argued Bisu was the premier PvZer. I think he has definitely been wobbly regarding the matchup. However he did pioneer a protoss renaissance versus zerg twice with his bisu build 2.0 and pretty much was the only protoss winning versus zergs during the sonic era. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On February 25 2019 06:20 BisuDagger wrote: Shine finished with a silver and was regarded as one of the best during that tournament. His other bronze/silver finishes were losses exclusively to top form hero and effort. I love being asked to show my work because I dont brag about Bisu. I only argue with facts. I also never argued Bisu was the premier PvZer. I think he has definitely been wobbly regarding the matchup. However he did pioneer a protoss renaissance versus zerg twice with his bisu build 2.0 and pretty much was the only protoss winning versus zergs during the sonic era. curious, if not then who? i wasn't watching much bw during this era so i would like to see some games by those playas | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On February 25 2019 05:27 Dazed. wrote: I think Mini is a super high volatility player, if he ever gets himself under emotional control, I think he has serious untapped potential. As is, hes hit or miss. i agree. i really liked his play during the last 2 seasons with some funky maps. he showed an ability to adapt. he seems to be more a brainy protoss rather than a hit perfect timings be super fast hit every storm perfectly and quickly. I think this type of player can get in his own head too much and lose to things he know he shouldn't which just frustrates him more. sc2 reference, MC was like this in the early days of the GSL for anyone who knows/cares xD | ||
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Li_Xin
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On February 25 2019 03:59 KamMoye wrote: #showyourwork Shine was one of the best Zergs in form towin a championship? Isn't Bisu 5-6 vs him or something in tourny? I get it, you're a Bisu stan--cool, so am I. I still don't let my critical thinking fly by the wayside. Assuming the mini stat is true, it obviously doesn't necessarily make him the best P v Z. But it surely raises the barrier of entry. Bisu can't coast off reputation anymore. Let's see the work shown! Plus, let's be real, Bisu isn't even relevant for the next year, year and a half. I THINK the mini stat is talking solely about his PvZ in the ASL. So if you added his PvZ stats from KSL2 (which was recent) his winrate would drop, since his PvZ was a total of 6-8 (42.8%) in that tournament. Bisu had above a 70% winrate in PvZ during his entire career. I can't think of even a single other Protoss that had even a 60% winrate in PvZ. He is so by far the best in that matchup you can't even argue that anyone else is even close to him without sounding like a complete buffoon. As for trying to discredit his PvZ based off of his winrate against Shine... man come on... I think the combination of hearing about his ASL stats and watching him beat the hell out of Calm (who played some of the worst ZvP games I've ever seen) has made you think that Mini is the new PvZ god. He's really not. Rain has terrible stats in PvZ, but I think he has by far the strongest PvZ right now. | ||
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
On February 25 2019 06:59 Li_Xin wrote: I THINK the mini stat is talking solely about his PvZ in the ASL. So if you added his PvZ stats from KSL2 (which was recent) his winrate would drop, since his PvZ was a total of 6-8 (42.8%) in that tournament. Bisu had above a 70% winrate in PvZ during his entire career. I can't think of even a single other Protoss that had even a 60% winrate in PvZ. He is so by far the best in that matchup you can't even argue that anyone else is even close to him without sounding like a complete buffoon. As for trying to discredit his PvZ based off of his winrate against Shine... man come on... I think the combination of hearing about his ASL stats and watching him beat the hell out of Calm (who played some of the worst ZvP games I've ever seen) has made you think that Mini is the new PvZ god. He's really not. Rain has terrible stats in PvZ, but I think he has by far the strongest PvZ right now. Thanks for the clarification. Please stop goalpost shifting and strawmanning. Read more closely. When did I ever say Bisu wasn't the best PvZ in history? Come on man, I said earlier I am a huge Bisu fan. Been following the scene closely since '08. None of what you said in your second paragraph had anything to do specifically with what I said. You took the Shine quote out of context. I think you're projecting and jumping to conclusions. On February 25 2019 06:20 BisuDagger wrote: Shine finished with a silver and was regarded as one of the best during that tournament. His other bronze/silver finishes were losses exclusively to top form hero and effort. I love being asked to show my work because I dont brag about Bisu. I only argue with facts. https://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/players/623_Shine/games/during/5096_AfreecaStarleagueS3 Weak fields is the only time Shine can do damage. He's a good player but has zero potential to be S-class. I'll glady go on record with that. He got washed in Finals and only got to Silver with help from an amazing bracket. You gotta be really struggling to say Shine was ever a strong contender to take a tournament over a competitive field. I also never argued Bisu was the premier PvZer. I think he has definitely been wobbly regarding the matchup. However he did pioneer a protoss renaissance versus zerg twice with his bisu build 2.0 and pretty much was the only protoss winning versus zergs during the sonic era. Yeah, he's definitely the premier vZ, but the wobbliness post-Kespa is inexcusable imo, precisely for the acomplishments you listed (and many more). The only Zergs who should even put up a fight are Soulkey and Effort. Bisu's post-Kespa career has been a massive failure iyam. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19270 Posts
On February 25 2019 06:24 Alejandrisha wrote: curious, if not then who? i wasn't watching much bw during this era so i would like to see some games by those playas There really hasnt been a star in PvZ since Kespa. Some of the other players with brief PvZ peaks would be BeSt (briefly) and Movie actually performed quite well using gateway expands to great success. Most like due to the repetitive map pool during the sonic era. Replying to another comment now: Regarding Bisu's success, I am not sure how anyone could see it as a failure. Bisu went from a massive individual league drought in the Kespa era into returning to SC1 by winning multiple golds , silvers, and bronzes, all while being the ONLY successful protoss player during that time. And it wasn't until he went into the military did other protoss players actually start to shine. (Other notables during his time would be Tyson->Movie->Shuttle in chronological order). | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On February 25 2019 09:35 BisuDagger wrote: There really hasnt been a star in PvZ since Kespa. Some of the other players with brief PvZ peaks would be BeSt (briefly) and Movie actually performed quite well using gateway expands to great success. Most like due to the repetitive map pool during the sonic era. Replying to another comment now: Regarding Bisu's success, I am not sure how anyone could see it as a failure. Bisu went from a massive individual league drought in the Kespa era into returning to SC1 by winning multiple golds , silvers, and bronzes, all while being the ONLY successful protoss player during that time. And it wasn't until he went into the military did other protoss players actually start to shine. (Other notables during his time would be Tyson->Movie->Shuttle in chronological order). thanks. i didn't think there was one. best has been disappointing to say the least. rain is not as good as his tastosis hype. there is a dearth in protoss talent and there has been one for a while now. 2 players does not a race make | ||
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JoinTheRain
Bulgaria409 Posts
On February 25 2019 04:49 Anc13nt wrote: Pretty crazy how Effort went from consistently losing ro16 to becoming clear favourite in ASL.I know he was unlucky with ZvZ in the earlier seasons but I don't think most people knew he was actually this good. People hype Soulkey and with sound reasoning. But effort, when he's hungry for good games and display of skill, is truly unstoppable. He was so pre-SC2 and he is now. I love to watch the ferocity with which he tears players apart. It all makes total sense when I watch his games, now I kill these marines here, now here, then boom - a big fight happens and you have 12 marines less than you're supposed to so you lose the fight and 3 min later - the game will be mine. He even did it to Flash, countering his builds in an immaculate fashion in the ASL6 finals. Effort is stunning and I do not even like watching zerg players. But he is exceptional. | ||
BigFan
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mca64
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KamMoye
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In this enviromment, Flash, Bisu, Soulkey, Effort, now Rain, and maybe one or two others actually had elite talent. Best, Stork, Jaedong, Sea, etc.? Washed. Actually, that's a bit harsh on Best; he doesn't belong in that group, but he neither belongs in the Rain/Soulkey/etc. group either. Despite this post-Kespa climate Bisu has never been a dominant player. Bisu is more like a fashion model--his play style is glamorous and fabulous, but lacks an essential "meat," and ends up malnourished all too often when the odds are clearly stacked in his favor. Oh well, enough about Bisu, he's irrelevant for another year at least. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On February 26 2019 07:50 KamMoye wrote: In the post-Kespa era there has been maybe 30% of the competition there was during Proleague era. It's no comparison. Only now, within the past year, is it truly beginning to revive, and it's still nowhere near Proleague era. There are no Stats or Boguses anymore; Larva and hero are Stats and Bogus level now, except Larva and hero were around back then, too, so it's still a net loss. In this enviromment, Flash, Bisu, Soulkey, Effort, now Rain, and maybe one or two others actually had elite talent. Best, Stork, Jaedong, Sea, etc.? Washed. Actually, that's a bit harsh on Best; he doesn't belong in that group, but he neither belongs in the Rain/Soulkey/etc. group either. Despite this post-Kespa climate Bisu has never been a dominant player. Bisu is more like a fashion model--his play style is glamorous and fabulous, but lacks an essential "meat," and ends up malnourished all too often when the odds are clearly stacked in his favor. Oh well, enough about Bisu, he's irrelevant for another year at least. what's your fucking point? User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On February 26 2019 11:55 Alejandrisha wrote: what's your fucking point? User was temp banned for this post. let me clarify. your first paragraph-- you say inno and stats were good in the past and that larva and hero are good now. i don't understand how that means anything. there are players and the players keep changing as people retire and play sc2. gotcha. your second paragraph. you glossed over a bunch of names of progamers ok. yeah the old guard is retired so we have new blood then you go on to talk about bisu the only player who all protosses envy and watch. his win rate should be good enough to say he 's not trash but the conclusion of your post is basically that. so i will ask again, what is the point of your post? are you trying to further some discussion not in the thread or are you happy about the new talent pool in bw? it's all very difficult to decipher | ||
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Afreeca Starleague Season 7![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/146.jpg)
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