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On October 15 2018 18:49 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2018 17:51 De4ngus wrote:On October 15 2018 12:14 Dante08 wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks that Action did not accidentally reveal the hydra? His plan was to use the proxy hatch to make just 3-4 hydras to scare Shuttle into making mass cannons while he continued to drone at home which he did and take his mineral base. If Action was going for a bust he wouldn't have that many drones at his nat. Shuttle eventually figured that out and even canceled one of his cannons. Action was actually doing ok until he lost like 9 drones to a DT. But then why would he proxy the hatchery? He's guaranteed to lose the hatch if he doesn't immediately end the game. There's no way you wouldn't take your own mineral only or the 3 o'clock base instead if you were planning on going to mid-game. Also Action's overlord could see everything, including the fact that Shuttle only had 1 cannon, and was wide open for the bust. Even if he wanted to just make 4 hydras, if he had waited and gone in with them together, they would have taken out the cannon and caused a lot more trouble for shuttle, combined with the lings. I can't see how the hydra reveal wasn't a mistake. Both dont make sense to me. Like you said, proxying it there meant it likely wasnt a fake. But why even move the hydra to the front of Shuttle’s base at all if you dont plan on showing it. Even a random probe or zealot moving out could reveal your hydra. Just leave it at the proxy hatch until you have the amount you need. Action was my pick for dark horse but I agree he was the lesser player this series. GG
I think he proxied it so the hydras would reach there faster and make it seem more like a real 3 hatch hydra bust.
Someone needs to interview Action to ask him this.
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On October 15 2018 19:23 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2018 18:49 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote:On October 15 2018 17:51 De4ngus wrote:On October 15 2018 12:14 Dante08 wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks that Action did not accidentally reveal the hydra? His plan was to use the proxy hatch to make just 3-4 hydras to scare Shuttle into making mass cannons while he continued to drone at home which he did and take his mineral base. If Action was going for a bust he wouldn't have that many drones at his nat. Shuttle eventually figured that out and even canceled one of his cannons. Action was actually doing ok until he lost like 9 drones to a DT. But then why would he proxy the hatchery? He's guaranteed to lose the hatch if he doesn't immediately end the game. There's no way you wouldn't take your own mineral only or the 3 o'clock base instead if you were planning on going to mid-game. Also Action's overlord could see everything, including the fact that Shuttle only had 1 cannon, and was wide open for the bust. Even if he wanted to just make 4 hydras, if he had waited and gone in with them together, they would have taken out the cannon and caused a lot more trouble for shuttle, combined with the lings. I can't see how the hydra reveal wasn't a mistake. Both dont make sense to me. Like you said, proxying it there meant it likely wasnt a fake. But why even move the hydra to the front of Shuttle’s base at all if you dont plan on showing it. Even a random probe or zealot moving out could reveal your hydra. Just leave it at the proxy hatch until you have the amount you need. Action was my pick for dark horse but I agree he was the lesser player this series. GG I think it was a move to show Shuttle that there is indeed a proxy hatch and he should build a billion cannons. Action didn't even build any hydras in his main or nat. I think if he was serious about the hydra all-in in the beginning he would have at least build a few hydras there.
Yes exactly he was building drones in his main and nat and after he built the 3-4 hydras he even built drones at the proxy hatch. Those minerals mined would have paid for the hatch.
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A bit sad that game 1 and 2 was hard-countered, but overall a fun series to watch.
The casting-Archon did a good job this time around as well. I think an in-form Shuttle is definitly one of the top PvZ'ers out there these days. His mass zealot-roaming and agressive Zel/HT/Archon pushes is the worst to deal with as a Zerg player >.<
Hope we will see game 5 in the final ro8 as well...
But the preview-write up pretty much sums it up:
"Mini will have to show godlike-play because he is going up against god himself" :-)
Flash taking it 3-2 or 3-1.
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On October 15 2018 19:29 Dante08 wrote:
I think he proxied it so the hydras would reach there faster and make it seem more like a real 3 hatch hydra bust.
Someone needs to interview Action to ask him this.
Action never started making hydras from his initial 2 hatcheries (no hydras coming from minimap, gas mining very slowly and no egg cancel), neither upgraded hydra speed so it was almost certainly a fake bust. Doubt he would send the first hydra so close to the wall-in anyway ,small zealot-probe moveout reveals the hydra easily
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Can someone please tell me what Mini’s PvZ and PvT playstle is? Isn’t he known for his micro? I’m getting ready and hyped for Flash vs Mini. Letmelose got any more info^^?
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Haven't really watched Mini play PvT in a long time somehow. His PvZ is way more like Bisu's than Rain's is like Bisu's (lol).
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On October 16 2018 01:42 Alpha-NP- wrote:
Can someone please tell me what Mini’s PvZ and PvT playstle is?
From what I've seen, in PvT he does mass shuttle builds plenty of times when the map allows it, like 4 shuttles and drops reavers and zealots from all to support the dragoons. As for late game, I've seen him do Arbiters as well as Carriers so I don't know what he prefers more.
In PvZ it doesn't seem to me that he has a style of his own like in PvT. He does as Protosses do - sairs into a DT, then storm and the usual.
When his nerves don't get to him, he can play strikingly good. But when he's off - it's sad to watch, he goofs like a newbie sometimes.
Anyway, I think he's exciting to watch and I hope Flash doesn't just rofl noob bash his brains for a 3 - 0 in 40 minutes. But then again, it's off-line Flash on maps that are not bad for TvP so I don't have high expectations for Mini.
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On October 15 2018 13:01 Moopower wrote:
I wish they'd make lair a requirement for hydra speed and range to be available, that way it'll make hydra busts less abusable in ZvP. I dont know why but in the old days hydra bust was an all or nothing strategy, and usually resulted in zerg losing if it didn't kill the protoss, but now we have games where they more or less equalize 50-50 if protoss defends it, so zerg doesn't take any risk if it fails but can outright win the game if it works. Anyone can tell me why this is the case now adays where zerg can easily transition into mid to late game without much disadvantage? Before you can see that zerg drone counts were lower and for them to get back up in macro and economy they have to make several rounds of drones making their army weaker momentarily until they get their eco back up and that's when protoss can exploit and usually kill them. But now it seems there's no timing window for that and zerg somehow has the economy or the protoss's economy was stunted so much by the attempted hydra bust that it just sets them too far back that zerg can just come back in the game.
Or they can at the very least make the upgrades take longer. There's too short of a timing window for protoss to be able to scout them in time when speedlings deny probe and zealot scouting.
What do you mean by old days? If you mean the days that you make corsair only if zerg go muta and skipping corsair was normal vs zerg then my asnwer is thats the reason why zerg lose if not succeed with hydra bust, fast zealots pumping from 6-7 gates is going to get you if you fail with the bust. Also big part of it is that zerg deny probe scouting super easy nowdays and can even make lair and still hydra bust... So protoss is lost without corsair and cannons, both of which is unefficient units by themself, one is static defence, other is high price air to air unit which making protoss uneffecient in midgame pvz in general.
About Action play, i really do think he metagamed himself in that third game. He even couldve broken Shuttle with the first hydras and lings he showed at the natural, because shuttle had far from enough to defend, at that moment i though "here shuttle got so lucky" if not die he would surely suffer economical damage, like losing all the warping canons or probes... I think that fake bust was a momentary decision by Action, having in mind how well he cook his builds he shouldve perfectly calculated that corsair will see its all fake before shuttle could build many canons at his nat. His anti dt overlord coverage was awfull too, which is one more point that feels like that he had nothing prepared after game 3. We saw same Action in game 5, again he was looking like he has no real idea what to do. In the interview he said he dont need to prepare specific builds and tricks for protoss, because standart game is easy enough, but actually he showed he cant handle well a normal game without preparing his usual dirty tricks.
He sure is very talented in that regard, but that style of play is much more requiring in terms of preparation and unrewarding, because it doesnt always pay off. While looking at Flash who develop solid grounded set of skills that pays off in every game and players probably feel like they have to push a mountain when they face against him.
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Is it remotely possible that action was going for a hard contain at shuttle's mineral only and using the bridges to contain at the other side with a battle zerg style? most of his play seems unit-based rather than turtle style of taking another natural and the main behind it. it looks like a bust so toss spends resources on defense giving zerg map control for the time needed to get a couple sunks and a spore up with lurkers. I just fear as a B iccup max rank player i'm not qualified for such ridiculous theory crafting, even though action has shown some pretty outside the box tactics before.
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Very nice games, I enjoyed the series, Shuttle looking solid!
On October 15 2018 19:23 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2018 18:49 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote:On October 15 2018 17:51 De4ngus wrote:On October 15 2018 12:14 Dante08 wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks that Action did not accidentally reveal the hydra? His plan was to use the proxy hatch to make just 3-4 hydras to scare Shuttle into making mass cannons while he continued to drone at home which he did and take his mineral base. If Action was going for a bust he wouldn't have that many drones at his nat. Shuttle eventually figured that out and even canceled one of his cannons. Action was actually doing ok until he lost like 9 drones to a DT. But then why would he proxy the hatchery? He's guaranteed to lose the hatch if he doesn't immediately end the game. There's no way you wouldn't take your own mineral only or the 3 o'clock base instead if you were planning on going to mid-game. Also Action's overlord could see everything, including the fact that Shuttle only had 1 cannon, and was wide open for the bust. Even if he wanted to just make 4 hydras, if he had waited and gone in with them together, they would have taken out the cannon and caused a lot more trouble for shuttle, combined with the lings. I can't see how the hydra reveal wasn't a mistake. Both dont make sense to me. Like you said, proxying it there meant it likely wasnt a fake. But why even move the hydra to the front of Shuttle’s base at all if you dont plan on showing it. Even a random probe or zealot moving out could reveal your hydra. Just leave it at the proxy hatch until you have the amount you need. Action was my pick for dark horse but I agree he was the lesser player this series. GG I think it was a move to show Shuttle that there is indeed a proxy hatch and he should build a billion cannons. Action didn't even build any hydras in his main or nat. I think if he was serious about the hydra all-in in the beginning he would have at least build a few hydras there.
You raise an interesting point but later on Action continued making more hydras anyway, after Shuttle plonked down a mass of cannons isn't it?
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On October 16 2018 05:18 JieXian wrote:Very nice games, I enjoyed the series, Shuttle looking solid! Show nested quote +On October 15 2018 19:23 Miragee wrote:On October 15 2018 18:49 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote:On October 15 2018 17:51 De4ngus wrote:On October 15 2018 12:14 Dante08 wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks that Action did not accidentally reveal the hydra? His plan was to use the proxy hatch to make just 3-4 hydras to scare Shuttle into making mass cannons while he continued to drone at home which he did and take his mineral base. If Action was going for a bust he wouldn't have that many drones at his nat. Shuttle eventually figured that out and even canceled one of his cannons. Action was actually doing ok until he lost like 9 drones to a DT. But then why would he proxy the hatchery? He's guaranteed to lose the hatch if he doesn't immediately end the game. There's no way you wouldn't take your own mineral only or the 3 o'clock base instead if you were planning on going to mid-game. Also Action's overlord could see everything, including the fact that Shuttle only had 1 cannon, and was wide open for the bust. Even if he wanted to just make 4 hydras, if he had waited and gone in with them together, they would have taken out the cannon and caused a lot more trouble for shuttle, combined with the lings. I can't see how the hydra reveal wasn't a mistake. Both dont make sense to me. Like you said, proxying it there meant it likely wasnt a fake. But why even move the hydra to the front of Shuttle’s base at all if you dont plan on showing it. Even a random probe or zealot moving out could reveal your hydra. Just leave it at the proxy hatch until you have the amount you need. Action was my pick for dark horse but I agree he was the lesser player this series. GG I think it was a move to show Shuttle that there is indeed a proxy hatch and he should build a billion cannons. Action didn't even build any hydras in his main or nat. I think if he was serious about the hydra all-in in the beginning he would have at least build a few hydras there. You raise an interesting point but later on Action continued making more hydras anyway, after Shuttle plonked down a mass of cannons isn't it?
Hmyeah he made 5 in total. Which is fine I feel.
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from: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/profile.php?user=Shady Sands
Shuttle's timing push in G5 was clinical; really well executed. Surprised Action got as greedy as he did in response - he made not just one, but two extraneous rounds of drones when he should have been pumping mutas for templar-sniping and sunkening / simcitying his bases.
On a meta level, Sylphid's closed mid makes a 2-base zeal/arch/temp push really difficult to fight. Action should have anticipated something like this. Instead it looks like his game sense was off.
Yeah, shuttle had only one archon (alt link, screenshot1) during his timing push, so the extra mutas would have helped. Action didn't anticipate it all with 36/80 drones (counting 农民) 6 hatch no sunken, his greedy game sense was off.
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On October 16 2018 05:03 Aminus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2018 13:01 Moopower wrote:
I wish they'd make lair a requirement for hydra speed and range to be available, that way it'll make hydra busts less abusable in ZvP. I dont know why but in the old days hydra bust was an all or nothing strategy, and usually resulted in zerg losing if it didn't kill the protoss, but now we have games where they more or less equalize 50-50 if protoss defends it, so zerg doesn't take any risk if it fails but can outright win the game if it works. Anyone can tell me why this is the case now adays where zerg can easily transition into mid to late game without much disadvantage? Before you can see that zerg drone counts were lower and for them to get back up in macro and economy they have to make several rounds of drones making their army weaker momentarily until they get their eco back up and that's when protoss can exploit and usually kill them. But now it seems there's no timing window for that and zerg somehow has the economy or the protoss's economy was stunted so much by the attempted hydra bust that it just sets them too far back that zerg can just come back in the game.
Or they can at the very least make the upgrades take longer. There's too short of a timing window for protoss to be able to scout them in time when speedlings deny probe and zealot scouting. What do you mean by old days? If you mean the days that you make corsair only if zerg go muta and skipping corsair was normal vs zerg then my asnwer is thats the reason why zerg lose if not succeed with hydra bust, fast zealots pumping from 6-7 gates is going to get you if you fail with the bust. Also big part of it is that zerg deny probe scouting super easy nowdays and can even make lair and still hydra bust... So protoss is lost without corsair and cannons, both of which is unefficient units by themself, one is static defence, other is high price air to air unit which making protoss uneffecient in midgame pvz in general. .
Your example is not accurate. Protoss do not keep making corsairs when they see a hydra bust coming. They stop after 1-2 corsairs. And back when Hydra busting was used a lot especially around 2009 meta, protoss pros regularly used corsairs there. So even making a stargate and getting 1 corsair didn't stop protoss from punishing zerg from a failed hydra bust. Zerg's have adapted a better mentality with hydra bust and stopped viewing it as an all in strategy and focused on damaging protoss economy by forcing them to pull probes to defend and droning at the proper times. And your points would only further agree with the idea that PvZ is a bit imbalanced in favor of Zerg with the multitude of options that zerg have vs Protoss static more heavy resource options.
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EPT
