On March 13 2018 20:58 Arvendilin wrote: effort has to cheese to win, got too intimidated after game 1
haha probably though I blame Horang2 for not sending another probe to try and scout around. It's not like 3 hatch hydra isn't a popular enough build.
Horang2 deserved to die. If you dont at least try and scout with a second probe there is no excuse. I mean this is happening ALL the time, and yet they want that second probe mining minerals instead. It seem like we in the comments are complainting about the lack of the second probe every time lol. Are we missing something or what? What does your economy matter if you are going to get hydra busted and killed like 75% of the time? I understand taking the risk sometimes, but if you do it too much zergs are just gonna blindly bust your front with hydras.
But what do we know? Its probably harder said than done. I remember there was an online league not a long time ago where Best vs Soulkey was in the semifinals. Best stomped soulkey in the first two games. Then soulkey figured he could not beat him in a straight up game and decided to mindgame and cheese to win the next three. Deny the scout and you can do anything. Thats how that goes! The reason we dont see that much of it in sponmatches i believe is because the audience would grow tired and stop donating balloons. I fear ZvP is broken. Its been the same thing the last three or so ASLs. You can hear the confusion in tastosis voices all the time. They dont recognize this matchup anymore. All they see is a wave of ling runbys and hydra busts killing the games before they really have started.
effOrt did a really tricky variation on the 3-hatch hydra bust. He intentionally showed the lair and then cancelled it and built the hydra den as soon as the probe left the base. All signs pointed to a fairly normal macro game, and the hydra bust was even delayed by approximately 20s.
This. I thought the lair cancellation was pretty awesome. Was it an improvisation based on him driving the probe away earlier than expected or was this his plan all along? Any pointers to either?
This is a common trick that even low level players utilize. While I doubt that it was his initial plan to make Lair and cancel it, as this would require both the compliance of the enemy Probe scout and the failure to block the Probe (whether intentional or not). It's possible that he reacted to the departure of the Probe and thought "I still have time to pull this off" or he was intending to go for 3 Hatch Hydra bust but the Probe stayed alive and managed to keep tabs on him longer than he wanted to, so he was forced to go for Lair cancel.
On March 13 2018 20:58 Arvendilin wrote: effort has to cheese to win, got too intimidated after game 1
haha probably though I blame Horang2 for not sending another probe to try and scout around. It's not like 3 hatch hydra isn't a popular enough build.
Horang2 deserved to die. If you dont at least try and scout with a second probe there is no excuse. I mean this is happening ALL the time, and yet they want that second probe mining minerals instead. It seem like we in the comments are complainting about the lack of the second probe every time lol. Are we missing something or what? What does your economy matter if you are going to get hydra busted and killed like 75% of the time? I understand taking the risk sometimes, but if you do it too much zergs are just gonna blindly bust your front with hydras.
But what do we know? Its probably harder said than done. I remember there was an online league not a long time ago where Best vs Soulkey was in the semifinals. Best stomped soulkey in the first two games. Then soulkey figured he could not beat him in a straight up game and decided to mindgame and cheese to win the next three. Deny the scout and you can do anything. Thats how that goes! The reason we dont see that much of it in sponmatches i believe is because the audience would grow tired and stop donating balloons. I fear ZvP is broken. Its been the same thing the last three or so ASLs. You can hear the confusion in tastosis voices all the time. They dont recognize this matchup anymore. All they see is a wave of ling runbys and hydra busts killing the games before they really have started.
effOrt did a really tricky variation on the 3-hatch hydra bust. He intentionally showed the lair and then cancelled it and built the hydra den as soon as the probe left the base. All signs pointed to a fairly normal macro game, and the hydra bust was even delayed by approximately 20s.
Yes, but is that really that tricky? I dont think that these kinds of mindgames is difficult for players of this caliber. The way i see it protoss should never really infer anything about what zerg is doing. They need hard evidence, because zergs know that protoss is going to skip building more cannons unless they know for a fact that hydras is coming. As longs as you deny scouting you can hydra bust almost everytime. They even have an overlord sitting nicely above the protoss expansion monitoring everything he is doing.
Of course you should infer things about what the zerg is doing, thats best practices. If your extremely diligent on your probe scouting every game and you refuse to cut any corners, you will lose more games because zergs will counter that by playing greedy. Every now and again you have to take 'stupid' risks.
On March 14 2018 14:29 Alpha-NP- wrote: Why are the players that are seeded into the ro16 practicing on Sparkle? Do they expect Sparkle as a map further in the tournament?
So far there is no evidence that it won't be used in the Ro16 and afaik in almost any big korean tournament, the map pool stayed through the entirety of a season.
On March 13 2018 20:58 Arvendilin wrote: effort has to cheese to win, got too intimidated after game 1
haha probably though I blame Horang2 for not sending another probe to try and scout around. It's not like 3 hatch hydra isn't a popular enough build.
Horang2 deserved to die. If you dont at least try and scout with a second probe there is no excuse. I mean this is happening ALL the time, and yet they want that second probe mining minerals instead. It seem like we in the comments are complainting about the lack of the second probe every time lol. Are we missing something or what? What does your economy matter if you are going to get hydra busted and killed like 75% of the time? I understand taking the risk sometimes, but if you do it too much zergs are just gonna blindly bust your front with hydras.
But what do we know? Its probably harder said than done. I remember there was an online league not a long time ago where Best vs Soulkey was in the semifinals. Best stomped soulkey in the first two games. Then soulkey figured he could not beat him in a straight up game and decided to mindgame and cheese to win the next three. Deny the scout and you can do anything. Thats how that goes! The reason we dont see that much of it in sponmatches i believe is because the audience would grow tired and stop donating balloons. I fear ZvP is broken. Its been the same thing the last three or so ASLs. You can hear the confusion in tastosis voices all the time. They dont recognize this matchup anymore. All they see is a wave of ling runbys and hydra busts killing the games before they really have started.
effOrt did a really tricky variation on the 3-hatch hydra bust. He intentionally showed the lair and then cancelled it and built the hydra den as soon as the probe left the base. All signs pointed to a fairly normal macro game, and the hydra bust was even delayed by approximately 20s.
Yes, but is that really that tricky? I dont think that these kinds of mindgames is difficult for players of this caliber. The way i see it protoss should never really infer anything about what zerg is doing. They need hard evidence, because zergs know that protoss is going to skip building more cannons unless they know for a fact that hydras is coming. As longs as you deny scouting you can hydra bust almost everytime. They even have an overlord sitting nicely above the protoss expansion monitoring everything he is doing.
Of course you should infer things about what the zerg is doing, thats best practices. If your extremely diligent on your probe scouting every game and you refuse to cut any corners, you will lose more games because zergs will counter that by playing greedy. Every now and again you have to take 'stupid' risks.
Right. So you are damned if you do or damned if you don't is how it looks like to me. I wonder what the pros are saying about this.
It'd be interesting to see what the winrates are for those who under-optimise cannons vs. those who over-optimise.
Of course I'm saying this as a couch-expert but I'd think it's possible to put down 3 cannons and recuperate the 300 minerals those +2 cannons cost later on by either smart harass to punish greedy Zergs or safe expansion.
While I agree that you lose more than win if you always play with due diligence in a final match, Bo1, I think it's a sound strategy to over-optimise. Worst situation, Zerg gets away with an eco build Protoss has to punish mid-game; best situation, Zerg loses after a failed bust attempt.
Typing this out, it all seems sound but given that we regularly see Protoss setting up just one cannon I'm pretty sure I'm missing something from the economic perspective.
On March 13 2018 20:58 Arvendilin wrote: effort has to cheese to win, got too intimidated after game 1
haha probably though I blame Horang2 for not sending another probe to try and scout around. It's not like 3 hatch hydra isn't a popular enough build.
Horang2 deserved to die. If you dont at least try and scout with a second probe there is no excuse. I mean this is happening ALL the time, and yet they want that second probe mining minerals instead. It seem like we in the comments are complainting about the lack of the second probe every time lol. Are we missing something or what? What does your economy matter if you are going to get hydra busted and killed like 75% of the time? I understand taking the risk sometimes, but if you do it too much zergs are just gonna blindly bust your front with hydras.
But what do we know? Its probably harder said than done. I remember there was an online league not a long time ago where Best vs Soulkey was in the semifinals. Best stomped soulkey in the first two games. Then soulkey figured he could not beat him in a straight up game and decided to mindgame and cheese to win the next three. Deny the scout and you can do anything. Thats how that goes! The reason we dont see that much of it in sponmatches i believe is because the audience would grow tired and stop donating balloons. I fear ZvP is broken. Its been the same thing the last three or so ASLs. You can hear the confusion in tastosis voices all the time. They dont recognize this matchup anymore. All they see is a wave of ling runbys and hydra busts killing the games before they really have started.
effOrt did a really tricky variation on the 3-hatch hydra bust. He intentionally showed the lair and then cancelled it and built the hydra den as soon as the probe left the base. All signs pointed to a fairly normal macro game, and the hydra bust was even delayed by approximately 20s.
Yes, but is that really that tricky? I dont think that these kinds of mindgames is difficult for players of this caliber. The way i see it protoss should never really infer anything about what zerg is doing. They need hard evidence, because zergs know that protoss is going to skip building more cannons unless they know for a fact that hydras is coming. As longs as you deny scouting you can hydra bust almost everytime. They even have an overlord sitting nicely above the protoss expansion monitoring everything he is doing.
Of course you should infer things about what the zerg is doing, thats best practices. If your extremely diligent on your probe scouting every game and you refuse to cut any corners, you will lose more games because zergs will counter that by playing greedy. Every now and again you have to take 'stupid' risks.
Right. So you are damned if you do or damned if you don't is how it looks like to me. I wonder what the pros are saying about this.
Well, you need to keep that probe alive or send another one. Also, some protoss strategy solve it by sending early zealots for agression. Just scouting once, with one probe, and leaving the zerg base quite early is actually only greedy and he was just hoping effort didnt switch.
EPT
