On February 25 2007 07:59 Excalibur_Z wrote: Now, I'm no top-tier player, but I am a thinker. I just couldn't think of any moves that would put a dent in Savior's perfect defense. His forces are always so mobile that it's like he can attack and defend with the same force at the same time, far outpacing the comparatively slow Terran forces. Unlike most Zergs, Savior also earns his expansions, rather than recklessly mass-expanding. Normally when I'm watching a game I'm thinking "oh why doesn't T just do this" but this time my mind went blank. I was witnessing the demise of TvZ unfold before me. Those Dark Swarms in Game 1? Ridiculous, and they completely set the pace of the game from then on out. Nada was utterly robbed by one spell, and as more Zergs pick up on the importance of Defilers (moreso than they already do, I mean completely relying on Defilers alone) TvZ will get worse and worse. You can tell that in Games 2-4 Nada was going for the kill before Savior could get Defilers, because he knows that he's so skilled with them, once he has them it's over. I'm hardly the guy that will use one series to predict a matchup revolution, but this time...
this is hardly the first time savior has shown his strength with defilers. the fact is its not going to be revolutionary because z's have been abusing defilers for a long time, the rest of them simply cannot use them as well as savior can. its the skill, not the matchup. its like those reps of nada that get published where he has 2 base sk terran and the zerg has the entire map + hydra lurk and he fights his way back into the game with perfect irradiate useage. every terran uses irradiate, every terran can't use it to the extent nada's perfect micro can.
the reason why its sort of the matchup ontop of the skill is because terran simply has no counter for defilers, consume is broken really, but whatever =-) Im not even just talking about in saviors sense, its just broken period.
On February 25 2007 07:59 Excalibur_Z wrote: Now, I'm no top-tier player, but I am a thinker. I just couldn't think of any moves that would put a dent in Savior's perfect defense. His forces are always so mobile that it's like he can attack and defend with the same force at the same time, far outpacing the comparatively slow Terran forces. Unlike most Zergs, Savior also earns his expansions, rather than recklessly mass-expanding. Normally when I'm watching a game I'm thinking "oh why doesn't T just do this" but this time my mind went blank. I was witnessing the demise of TvZ unfold before me. Those Dark Swarms in Game 1? Ridiculous, and they completely set the pace of the game from then on out. Nada was utterly robbed by one spell, and as more Zergs pick up on the importance of Defilers (moreso than they already do, I mean completely relying on Defilers alone) TvZ will get worse and worse. You can tell that in Games 2-4 Nada was going for the kill before Savior could get Defilers, because he knows that he's so skilled with them, once he has them it's over. I'm hardly the guy that will use one series to predict a matchup revolution, but this time...
this is hardly the first time savior has shown his strength with defilers. the fact is its not going to be revolutionary because z's have been abusing defilers for a long time, the rest of them simply cannot use them as well as savior can. its the skill, not the matchup. its like those reps of nada that get published where he has 2 base sk terran and the zerg has the entire map + hydra lurk and he fights his way back into the game with perfect irradiate useage. every terran uses irradiate, every terran can't use it to the extent nada's perfect micro can.
the reason why its sort of the matchup ontop of the skill is because terran simply has no counter for defilers, consume is broken really, but whatever =-) Im not even just talking about in saviors sense, its just broken period.
Yeah because without it with irradiate around you might *ever* get even 1 spell off with a defiler.
And it's not broken, if it's broken why do the terrans in general still molest the zergs and practically always have.
Consume is also insanely micro intensive and it *does* cost minerals/gas depending on what you feed the bugger which makes it pretty situational in it's use depending on you're income and available units. The cost does rack up, I'm pretty sure savior used like 2k minerals on consumed units alone let alone some gas on scourges by the end of game 1 of the finals.
And if consume is broken, how the hell is zerg ever supposed to beat terran without a boatload of dark swarm and with 150 mana current broodling cost instead of 75 like irradiate/PsiStorm.
Just a thought -.-.
As with all things the game has endless possibilities for those with the capacity to actually control it at that level.
You never heard anyone calling consume broken/overpowered before the current Savior streak. Zerg was even considered pretty weak vs terran, and most people thought zerg impossible of dominating now as terran did before.
It's a changing process, time will tell. But I think it's all very skill dependant and all in the capacity of the controller. Not the unit.
On February 25 2007 07:59 Excalibur_Z wrote: Now, I'm no top-tier player, but I am a thinker. I just couldn't think of any moves that would put a dent in Savior's perfect defense. His forces are always so mobile that it's like he can attack and defend with the same force at the same time, far outpacing the comparatively slow Terran forces. Unlike most Zergs, Savior also earns his expansions, rather than recklessly mass-expanding. Normally when I'm watching a game I'm thinking "oh why doesn't T just do this" but this time my mind went blank. I was witnessing the demise of TvZ unfold before me. Those Dark Swarms in Game 1? Ridiculous, and they completely set the pace of the game from then on out. Nada was utterly robbed by one spell, and as more Zergs pick up on the importance of Defilers (moreso than they already do, I mean completely relying on Defilers alone) TvZ will get worse and worse. You can tell that in Games 2-4 Nada was going for the kill before Savior could get Defilers, because he knows that he's so skilled with them, once he has them it's over. I'm hardly the guy that will use one series to predict a matchup revolution, but this time...
this is hardly the first time savior has shown his strength with defilers. the fact is its not going to be revolutionary because z's have been abusing defilers for a long time, the rest of them simply cannot use them as well as savior can. its the skill, not the matchup. its like those reps of nada that get published where he has 2 base sk terran and the zerg has the entire map + hydra lurk and he fights his way back into the game with perfect irradiate useage. every terran uses irradiate, every terran can't use it to the extent nada's perfect micro can.
the reason why its sort of the matchup ontop of the skill is because terran simply has no counter for defilers, consume is broken really, but whatever =-) Im not even just talking about in saviors sense, its just broken period.
Irradiate is broken when the terran is able to keep his vessels alive, and consume/darkswarm is broken when terran doesn't have any vessels, or is with his back against the wall defending his base.
Lurkers are useless if you only have 1 against a few rines, bug great if you have many against lots of rines etc etc.
They are overpowered against different situations and stages in the game. The same goes for protoss who technically has a completely overpowered and broken army against zerg with DAs/reavers/HTs/Archons/goons/zeals, yet they don't win more on average, now do they?
The balance is good enough as long as the map allows both players to enter midgame without any major disadvantage. My five cents.
Edit: Oh and remember that savior himself said that he lost A LOT of practice games on just longinus which was to be played twice in this final. I guess he's the kind of guy who rises to the challenge and keeps his composure.
Edit2: But hold lurkers is abusive and I think it's a bug and not a feature, since lurkers do not have hold command by themselves. This would allow for much more terran early mobility and in fact sway the trend in favor of terran again I think.
The thing that makes Defilers so effective is that you can pretty much stall forever with them, which Savior does so well. Even when you're losing all your Defilers to Irradiate constantly, you can still prevent the Terran player from getting into your bases even with very few units.
I've been following since 2002 and its been 3 to almost 4 years of seeing my favourite zerg players, HOT-forever, yellow, and chojja get decimated time and time again.
2006 and 2007 is a good year.
Much thanks to Julyzerg, Gorush, and savior.
Those 3 guys in the past 2 years have changed the zerg progaming scene.
Hey all! I just got back from a week holiday in Portugal. It feels like I've missed so much! I'm really happy Savior won, gonna download the VODs later :.
Is there anywhere I can get a video of the opening of this OSL finals, where the players make their grand entrance? I missed it, and it sounds like a lot of fun.
On February 25 2007 07:59 Excalibur_Z wrote: Now, I'm no top-tier player, but I am a thinker. I just couldn't think of any moves that would put a dent in Savior's perfect defense. His forces are always so mobile that it's like he can attack and defend with the same force at the same time, far outpacing the comparatively slow Terran forces. Unlike most Zergs, Savior also earns his expansions, rather than recklessly mass-expanding. Normally when I'm watching a game I'm thinking "oh why doesn't T just do this" but this time my mind went blank. I was witnessing the demise of TvZ unfold before me. Those Dark Swarms in Game 1? Ridiculous, and they completely set the pace of the game from then on out. Nada was utterly robbed by one spell, and as more Zergs pick up on the importance of Defilers (moreso than they already do, I mean completely relying on Defilers alone) TvZ will get worse and worse. You can tell that in Games 2-4 Nada was going for the kill before Savior could get Defilers, because he knows that he's so skilled with them, once he has them it's over. I'm hardly the guy that will use one series to predict a matchup revolution, but this time...
this is hardly the first time savior has shown his strength with defilers. the fact is its not going to be revolutionary because z's have been abusing defilers for a long time, the rest of them simply cannot use them as well as savior can. its the skill, not the matchup. its like those reps of nada that get published where he has 2 base sk terran and the zerg has the entire map + hydra lurk and he fights his way back into the game with perfect irradiate useage. every terran uses irradiate, every terran can't use it to the extent nada's perfect micro can.
the reason why its sort of the matchup ontop of the skill is because terran simply has no counter for defilers, consume is broken really, but whatever =-) Im not even just talking about in saviors sense, its just broken period.
So funny. Terrans dominate for years and years and then one zerg starts doing well and some people cry out imbalance. Its not the game tha't's broken its your sense of balance.
A "bad day" doesn't exist on this level, on an event of such importance to the players and with the amount of training these players have before an event like this. There may be 1 bad game, maybe even 2 but not 3 or 4 in a row. An explanation like "NaDa just had bad luck, he could have won otherwise" is ridiculous here, because the players didn't have even chances: Savior simply outclassed him. The maps favored terrans (as usual?) but his game understanding and defiler micro (which is hard to do perfectly, by the way) was just amazing. A clear "bad luck" scenario was game 2 for savior, but that was it then. Besides, NaDa is experienced enough to know how to play under pressure and any other circumstance. He lost because he didn't stand a single chance. I'm sure that if savior woulnd't have tried to cheese in game 2 or at least got the sunkens in time it would have ended in a 3:0 rape. NaDa's game style may be good enough for most other players but not against savior. Hwasin, Iris and Midas were much better suited for this matchup than NaDa, and even they lost close.
Savior is the new king and he deserves it. I'm just amazed at his game understanding. He may not play the most exciting games (I like July better in this regard), but he executes everything so flawless it's plain amazing.
And yes, it's really positive for the game itself that one zerg (or 2, I guess you can count July as well though he's gotten worse) finally comes to challenge the long-time Terran dominance. Less TvT finals, more variety. I welcome this as a spectator (I stopped playing SC in late 1999 but still follow the Korean scene because pro-level SC is just awesome to watch (while lower level SC is boring IMHO ).
its funny nobody was complaining about defiler balance until savior
if you watch the nada vs yarnc game where yarnc gets to defilers on the same map you will see how much stronger savior is in the other aspects instead of just abusing one unit.
savior's defiler use is the best of all time, but it's merely and end result of all the other stuff he does. he works and works and works to set himself up for those few defilers, and then counts on absolute perfect usage of them.
True @ Hot_Bid. Defilers are not imbalanced at all. They are simply *necessary* vs. a strong (upgraded) m&m&vessel force with appropriate micro, otherwise everything the Zerg throws at the Terran would die in seconds. I've seen many games like that. Defilers are about as "imbalanced" as psi storm: not at all, just necessary. And without consume they would be almost worthless, they'd most likely die before having enough energy to cast anything. Counters? Micro units better in order to not lose a whole army under the swarm, use vessels better (irradiate defilers, matrix own units, don't let them die to scourges), and kill expansions to prevent too many defilers. Or maybe just expand/macro a bit more. Easy to say, hard to do, but all possible. I'm sure that Terran players will eventually adapt to savior style godlike defiler micro. But for now, they don't, and get raped.
EPT
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