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Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
 Anyway there's also another similarity between Julys Gillette win as well as beating oov in semi, and the general aggressive style of play. They also played Xellos in the quarters! "God of Fighters", and "God of Death" isnt too far away from each other as well  Go Anytime! | ||
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haduken
Australia8267 Posts
bring back the cup for PROTOSS! | ||
mensrea
Canada5062 Posts
Hmm, I don't recall ever saying anything to the effect "oov knew it would be a 3 reav 3 goon drop but still thought he could stop it". I said oov knew it would be a mixed unit shuttle drop backed by reavers. oov had scouted with both his SCV and his wraith (the scv saw the shuttle drop build, the wraith scouted the expos at 8 and 6 to confirm that Anytime wasn't going expansion). oov just never anticipated the ferocity of the drop. Why else would he be expanding at a time when he knew a) a drop was coming and b) that Anytime wasn't expanding himself? He thought he could stop "it" - but again I never said that oov knew that "it" would be 3 goon 3 reaver. Btw, this is also, in substance, the same analysis provided by the OGN commentators during the game - that oov knew a shuttle drop of mixed units backed by reaver(s) was coming, but he decided to expand because of his supreme confidence that he could stop whatever Anytime could throw at him at that stage of the game. My only point is that Anytime played fantastic. And people need to give oov some more credit, instead of trying to belittle his opponent. oov probably didn't play at his peak. But guys, please, oov is said to have practiced like crazy for this match. And why shouldn't he? It's the OGN semis afterall. The comments about how oov could have should have would have suggest two things which simply aren't true: a) that oov played badly because he was either nervous or unprepared, and b) Anytime was lucky to have won. This is absurd. It's the OGN semis. OOV practiced 10+ hours a day for the past week straight. It's ILOVEOOV. OOV's a seasoned champion who's gone toe to toe with the very best at the highest levels and won many times over - so nervousness couldn't have been a significant factor. So, what's the conclusion? I think Anytime simply came better prepared and took better advantage with better timing of the strategic nuances of the maps they were playing on. If oov played "poorly" it's only because, in hindsight, he could have should have would have done something else. But, tell me a game in which that isn't true? And if any of you speak the Korean language and know how the OGN interviews are set up, you would know that a) Anytime is about the shyest, least cocky guy you'll meet in SC, and b) Anytime's comments with respect to games 4 and 5 were never meant for oov. The timing and the structure of the OGN interview is such that Anytime knew oov wouldn't hear about it until after the match. I'd explain more, but I won't. That's just the way things are. So please no more speculation about who's cocky and who's not and who's trying to psych the other player. There was none of that. The OGN commentator Eum Jae Gyung simply asked him about what he thought about the outcome, and Anytime politely responded. And (I'm responding to PoP here) that's why I can use that comment about games 4 and 5 to back up my "argument". Anytime's game 4 win wasn't a "cheese" nor was it a "fluke" nor was it "oov playing badly". Anytime had come to win and even PoP's own comments support my conclusion: "He thought he could stop 3 reavers and 3 goons with like 6 goliaths? Yeah sure... :/" PoP is wrong about oov thinking that he could stop a 3 goon 3 reaver drop at that stage of the game (as I've commented, oov only knew there would be drop of some kind) - but, as we saw, PoP is absolutely correct that it would be very difficult to stop it. And for the record: I'm a fan of any player who entertains me. If I seem to be on the protoss bandwagon (and I am) it's only because toss players are a bit more entertaining to watch. Why that is, I don't know for sure, but perhaps the fact that, at the very highest levels of play, protoss is at a disadvantage, forces toss players to be slightly more creative than the average zerg or terran user. Anyway, if any of you have a problem with that, sue me. | ||
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
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mensrea
Canada5062 Posts
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
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Purind
Canada3562 Posts
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Mynock
4492 Posts
-Mynock | ||
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PoP
France15446 Posts
On October 29 2005 13:40 mensrea wrote: To (mostly) PoP, Hmm, I don't recall ever saying anything to the effect "oov knew it would be a 3 reav 3 goon drop but still thought he could stop it". I said oov knew it would be a mixed unit shuttle drop backed by reavers. oov had scouted with both his SCV and his wraith (the scv saw the shuttle drop build, the wraith scouted the expos at 8 and 6 to confirm that Anytime wasn't going expansion). oov just never anticipated the ferocity of the drop. Why else would he be expanding at a time when he knew a) a drop was coming and b) that Anytime wasn't expanding himself? He thought he could stop "it" - but again I never said that oov knew that "it" would be 3 goon 3 reaver. Indeed, but then again, with all his experience and probable practice on this map, shouldn't he know approximately how much Anytime could have produced in that amount of time? Considering it was *ages* after the usual fast reaver timing and he hadn't got any expo's yet, couldn't Oov somewhat guess Anytime was attempting some do-or-die drop strat? Fact is, Anytime couldn't be preparing anything else. Yet, Oov reacted by: - expanding once more ; - dropping 4 goliaths miles away from his base although he still had pretty much nothing to defend. It's just amazingly retarded. Oov wasn't himself or just didn't think. Btw, this is also, in substance, the same analysis provided by the OGN commentators during the game - that oov knew a shuttle drop of mixed units backed by reaver(s) was coming, but he decided to expand because of his supreme confidence that he could stop whatever Anytime could throw at him at that stage of the game. Maybe. Either way, it was an awful decision. Actually I have no idea whether Oov was expecting it or not, I'm only judging the decision in itself. My only point is that Anytime played fantastic. If you're talking about that specific game, then I strongly disagree. He just did his planned build (which he learned from the coach of POS if I recall his interview) and won, without facing any resistance. That's not what I call playing fantastic: his plan simply worked out. It's not even like he needed to micro his reavers/goons after the drop. If you're talking about the whole series, I "kinda" agree. I think he played flawlessly, but "fantastic" isn't the word I would use. If you look at the series, Anytime really never had to adapt to anything. He simply went for his planned strategies (dt's in game 1, 2 gate goons to power/macro to carriers in game 2, zealot rush in game 3 and timing drop in game 4) and succeeded 3 times out of 4. When it worked, he won ; when it failed, he lost. Yes, the only time his strat failed, and the only time he actually had to improvise, he did lose. I mean, his timing, execution and micro were perfect, no doubt. But maybe if Oov could avoid a few avoidable mistakes and resist as he did in game 3, he would have been outplayed later. Who knows? See, we have only seen one "facet" of Anytime's skills: his ability to think of deadly early strats and use them in the most effective way possible. But we haven't seen how good he was at adapting. We haven't seen how good he was at playing straight-up (except in game 2, but just barely thanks to Oov's gay opening and bad scouting). We haven't seen how good he was when faced with difficult situations. In short, we haven't seen much. Not Anytime's fault, though. And people need to give oov some more credit, instead of trying to belittle his opponent. oov probably didn't play at his peak. But guys, please, oov is said to have practiced like crazy for this match. And why shouldn't he? It's the OGN semis afterall. From his (and Boxer's) proleague interview he started practicing seriously two days before the game (wednesday), because proleague is T1's top priority and he can't do anything about it. I don't doubt he trained hard during those two days, but it would surprise me a lot if Anytime didn't spend a few more days on it. Actually, it doesn't matter much. My point is only that Oov definitely wasn't in his best shape at all. The comments about how oov could have should have would have suggest two things which simply aren't true: a) that oov played badly because he was either nervous or unprepared, and b) Anytime was lucky to have won. This is absurd. It's the OGN semis. OOV practiced 10+ hours a day for the past week straight. It's ILOVEOOV. Well, nobody knows *why* he played badly, but he did. The why doesn't matter much, once again. Then again, he was probably less prepared than Anytime unless he and Boxer lied about the proleague priority thing. OOV's a seasoned champion who's gone toe to toe with the very best at the highest levels and won many times over - so nervousness couldn't have been a significant factor. So, what's the conclusion? I think Anytime simply came better prepared and took better advantage with better timing of the strategic nuances of the maps they were playing on. If oov played "poorly" it's only because, in hindsight, he could have should have would have done something else. But, tell me a game in which that isn't true? It's not just about "not making the best decisions". It's about making several crappy choices and screwing up scouting in an OSL semis. Not too common afaik. And if any of you speak the Korean language and know how the OGN interviews are set up, you would know that a) Anytime is about the shyest, least cocky guy you'll meet in SC, and b) Anytime's comments with respect to games 4 and 5 were never meant for oov. Actually I always thought of Anytime as a shy and humble guy. The timing and the structure of the OGN interview is such that Anytime knew oov wouldn't hear about it until after the match. I'd explain more, but I won't. That's just the way things are. So please no more speculation about who's cocky and who's not and who's trying to psych the other player. There was none of that. The OGN commentator Eum Jae Gyung simply asked him about what he thought about the outcome, and Anytime politely responded. Being 100% sure you will win a game, when you're such an underdog playing the best player in the world in the opposing matchup, is plain cockyness to me. Well, I guess it's entirerly subjective. And (I'm responding to PoP here) that's why I can use that comment about games 4 and 5 to back up my "argument". Anytime's game 4 win wasn't a "cheese" nor was it a "fluke" nor was it "oov playing badly". Anytime had come to win and even PoP's own comments support my conclusion: "He thought he could stop 3 reavers and 3 goons with like 6 goliaths? Yeah sure... :/" Well, isn't making retarded choices another way of "playing badly"? ... Alright, your post finally ended. | ||
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Ilvy
Germany2445 Posts
On October 29 2005 13:40 mensrea wrote: And for the record: I'm a fan of any player who entertains me. If I seem to be on the protoss bandwagon (and I am) it's only because toss players are a bit more entertaining to watch. Why that is, I don't know for sure, but perhaps the fact that, at the very highest levels of play, protoss is at a disadvantage, forces toss players to be slightly more creative than the average zerg or terran user. Anyway, if any of you have a problem with that, sue me. <3 rea | ||
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mensrea
Canada5062 Posts
Speak for yourself. You must've missed Anytime owning the Challenge, finishing first overall, getting seeded, then proceeding to do well in Starleague. Anytime's record so far in OGN play is pretty amazing. In fact, he currently holds the highest win % of any active player. Now, this will most likely change over the coming months as he plays more games and his opponents are better equipped to deal with his strats and style. We may not have seen everything (I doubt anyone is saying Anytime is at the same level as oov as a player - only that there is some potential). But, "we haven't seen much" seems a bit extreme. The statement "his plan simply worked out" doesn't make sense to me. SC is a game that demands planning, practice and execution - as well as the ability to adapt (as you've already mentioned). All these things (and a few more qualities) must come together for a player to be successful. By your analysis, Garimto isn't a very good player either. Afterall, all he seems to be known for is coming up with ingenious strats against specific opponents and on specific maps and executing his plan to perfection so that the opponent gets taken off of his own plan. What a patsy. I suppose Mynock is correct: relatively "new" players like Anytime will have to prove themselves over time before they get any respect, regardless of tournament results. Pop's attitude speaks to this phenomenon, although I also suspect it probably has something to do with Pop being a fan of oov than being an Anytime hater. Nothing wrong with that, just an observation, the way Pop's been so keen to dissect every paragraph I've written about the subject and the way he's been making excuses for oov. Team League taking precedence over the OGN semis for oov? Boxer and oov may have said that, but how credible is that statement? It's the Silent_Control phenomenon. And maybe the IPXZerg phenomenon, as well. One more thing: I reviewed the whole series again and I will admit that oov truly played "poorly" in game 2. Why? Because he let his emotions take over and opened with a proxy fac that probably wasn't a part of his original game plan and, accordingly, should never have been attempted. He probably did it because of the way he got owned by a proxy gate in game 1. He thought he had been shown up. Time to return the favor. I admire the call. It was gutsy and bold. But, it didn't work. I am dropping this topic. A few people are taking this a bit too seriously and it's not enjoyable listening to people whine about a bad result in a sporting match. Bye now. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
... and like that, he's gone. Hopefully you'll be back during the Finals. --; | ||
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Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
Anytime has proven himself by winning challenge league and getting out of a relatively hard group. Oov, Yellow GGPlay are feared opponents though both GGplay and Yellow are known for their strength vs Terran instead of Protoss. In addition he DID beat Xellos who seems very inform lately(at least TvP). Therefore I think he\'s deserved to reach the final, and he did in a very flashy way doing alot unexpected stuff. Sure Oov might be the better player in a straight up game, but Anytime needs to focus on his own strength and his opponents weaknessses. Its not a secret Oovs strongest point of his game is macro game, thus Anytime wanted to avoid that - going the strategies he went. I think it\'s pretty well known that aggression early on pays off against oov before he can get big - which July proved over a year ago. I think Anytime WAS very well prepared, but its not secret there were some \"lucky\" moments. Oovs fac being scouted and his dropships running into goons(though Anytime had already won), and I think there are some other I forget. I want to point out Oov DID some retarded DECISIONS especially the last game, but it wasnt bad played in terms of micro/macro. It was purely his decicions all the games. Im a fan of both players, but I DO think people wanted a macrowar because Anytime DOES have great macro as well, but he decided his chances were better in a non-macrowar vs an opponent with such strong macro and thus didnt \"risk\" it in terms of letting the game be a macrofest. I dont blame him though because frankly the maps ARE difficult PvT, hell even Forte can be fucking hard PvT close spots unless you get such a start Anytime got. Finally I think Anytime will play different in the final. He should not challenge Boxer with strategies like this because Boxer is so good playing vs them, and generally defending. He should shift gear and try turning the serie into a macrogames, which I think he\'ll do as well. Which is good because then Boxer can once and for all prove his macro has become much better lately. | ||
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cava
United States1035 Posts
On October 29 2005 19:51 NeoIllusions wrote: This is probably the most active I've seen mensrea in months. And it's typically when he has an opinion to share. ... and like that, he's gone. Hopefully you'll be back during the Finals. --; I didn't even know mensrea was back until i just read this thread. Didn't he retire or move or something? All i know is its damn good to see his posts again. | ||
Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
On October 29 2005 23:19 Guybrush wrote: Finally I think Anytime will play different in the final. He should not challenge Boxer with strategies like this because Boxer is so good playing vs them, and generally defending. He should shift gear and try turning the serie into a macrogames, which I think he\'ll do as well. Which is good because then Boxer can once and for all prove his macro has become much better lately. Like I said, Boxer will now once and for all shut people like hT up, who after his 3-2 over Pusan in the semifinals said "how can ANY Toss lose a Bo5 against Boxer in PvT?". And then whenever anyone claims that Boxer is weak TvP, we will simply point out how Boxer won an OSL, while having to deal with extremely good Protoss players in quarters AND semis AND finals. | ||
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Luhh
Sweden2974 Posts
On October 29 2005 23:50 Carnac wrote: Like I said, Boxer will now once and for all shut people like hT up, who after his 3-2 over Pusan in the semifinals said "how can ANY Toss lose a Bo5 against Boxer in PvT?". And then whenever anyone claims that Boxer is weak TvP, we will simply point out how Boxer won an OSL, while having to deal with extremely good Protoss players in quarters AND semis AND finals. The reason people has been calling Boxer's TvP weak is not because he cannot win TvP games, it's because his raw mechanical power macro/micro on slightly protoss favoring maps in long grinds seem inadequate. Looks like he has worked on his macro a lot in the last year I must say. These maps seem to suit Boxer just fine. Lots of creative options in contrast to a map like Luna. Also, I think he has an edge here, albeit slight, since Anytime has tipped much more of his hand than Boxer have in this Starleague. But if Forte or ROV gets doubled, I feel I must place my liquibet points on anytime. Protoss fighting. | ||
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PoP
France15446 Posts
On October 29 2005 19:46 mensrea wrote: Speak for yourself. You must've missed Anytime owning the Challenge, finishing first overall, getting seeded, then proceeding to do well in Starleague. Anytime's record so far in OGN play is pretty amazing. In fact, he currently holds the highest win % of any active player. Sorry but Challenge League Terrans aren't Oov. The only time Anytime actually showed what I'm talking about (lately) is against Xellos. The OSL quarters, that is (the group stage game vs Oov also but he was already qualified for quarters so let's forget it). What happened in that series vs Xellos? Game 1, Xellos ran through his own mines to give the win to Anytime (props to him to exploit that properly but that's a mistake Xellos shouldn't have made). Game 2, straight up macro play. Anytime plays superbly but loses. Game 3, Anytime has a build and a plan, it works out perfectly, just like in the semis' games. We still haven't seen much of what he can do against a top (and I mean real top, not Iris or whoever he met during the CL) terran. I don't know if "luck" isn't the right word, but I'd say he was lucky at least for the 815 part (quarters included). Go fast main base to 2 base carriers? Fine, your opponent won't go goliaths at all (although every T does it and it works), won't notice the carriers until too late and then will die. Go fast timing drop? No problem, your opponent will send some goliaths away and spend all his minerals on CC while you can drop a nearly empty base. I don't have any other word than "luck" for that, and that is disregarding his great skills in actually using the strats. Now, this will most likely change over the coming months as he plays more games and his opponents are better equipped to deal with his strats and style. We may not have seen everything (I doubt anyone is saying Anytime is at the same level as oov as a player - only that there is some potential). But, "we haven't seen much" seems a bit extreme. The statement "his plan simply worked out" doesn't make sense to me. SC is a game that demands planning, practice and execution - as well as the ability to adapt (as you've already mentioned). All these things (and a few more qualities) must come together for a player to be successful. Then tell me how and when he had to adapt to anything Oov was doing in any of the semifinals game (except the 3rd)? He didn't, not because he was not able to, but because he didn't *need* to. It was a clear one-sided rape. By your analysis, Garimto isn't a very good player either. Afterall, all he seems to be known for is coming up with ingenious strats against specific opponents and on specific maps and executing his plan to perfection so that the opponent gets taken off of his own plan. What a patsy. If he couldn't win if his planned ingenious strats failed, then yes, I wouldn't consider him as a very good player. But we all know Garimto was also extremely good at adapting, killing pushes (by the way, did Anytime have to show any skills in killing pushes in those semis?), playing straight-up macro, and everything you can imagine. Maybe it's Anytime's case also. We may see all of this (and I hope so) in the finals, but so far, we haven't. I suppose Mynock is correct: relatively "new" players like Anytime will have to prove themselves over time before they get any respect, regardless of tournament results. Pop's attitude speaks to this phenomenon, although I also suspect it probably has something to do with Pop being a fan of oov than being an Anytime hater. I'm not a fan of Oov but I like the player a lot. And I absolutely love Anytime's balls and determination. This has nothing to do with not showing respect to him. You think the semis were fantastic, I don't. You think Oov wasn't playing poorly, I do. That's all there is about it. : ) Nothing wrong with that, just an observation, the way Pop's been so keen to dissect every paragraph I've written about the subject and the way he's been making excuses for oov. Team League taking precedence over the OGN semis for oov? Boxer and oov may have said that, but how credible is that statement? First, my "dissecting" of paragraphs is just the way I'm used to respond to long posts (usenet habits). I'm always trying to cut between the points made and not inside. This being said, I'm not making excuses for Oov. I'm just stating what they said, because I don't see what their goal could be for lying about that. It's not only been said in recent interviews but in pretty much all of SKT1's players' since the beginning of the proleague. Then again, maybe it's the case for the Plus team as well, or maybe it's total bullshit. Wouldn't see the point of lying though. I am dropping this topic. A few people are taking this a bit too seriously and it's not enjoyable listening to people whine about a bad result in a sporting match. Bye now. Taking it too seriously? Whining?... Can't you accept others' opinions? :/ I think it's a nice, enjoyable discussion. | ||
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Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
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haduken
Australia8267 Posts
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Listoric
Germany53 Posts
Anytime won because of perfect timing and great strategies, especially designed to kick oovs ass. never seen someone preparing himself like Anytime did. He knew oovs macro is awesome and tried to distract him and kick him very early. Anytime said he wanted to win one of the first three games, so he knew that his cheese might not work at all. still, he followed his plan, executed it flawlessly and oov couldn't do anything else then defend himself over and over again. Maybe also oov thought that his win in game 3 might have stopped Anytime from attacking that early and tells him to play safer after he is still 2:1 in lead... maybe he thought that Anytime might get under pressure when losing a game on TV after it almost worked out... who knows. Anyway, still i look forward to the Final. It's going to be awesome, and i really hoped to see a TvP in the final. Maybe Anytime already made an Anti-Boxer strategy... Protoss fighting! but Boxer winning | ||
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