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And for those who telling about Bisu and metagame, please review a PvZ matchup in past 5 years, and get enlightened  .
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On January 08 2012 10:41 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:42 ArvickHero wrote:On January 08 2012 07:22 ffreakk wrote:On January 08 2012 07:17 Vuk_91 wrote:On January 08 2012 07:10 ffreakk wrote:On January 08 2012 06:49 Vuk_91 wrote:On January 08 2012 06:17 George_the_man wrote:
im cool , im just wondering what is the best tactic to protect vs that kind of cheese , cause canon rush in PvP on that maps works so good, like Wooki looked for for cheese but he didnt go low enough to see pylon , wasnt even close , and even if he did it would take so much time for probes to climb up on that hill that 1st cannon would prolly be warped anyway..? If that cheese was so good,then everyone would use it. And if Wooki built a forge as soon as he saw that first cannon...He would have easily defended his natural (with only one cannon). Off topic, but im rather curious what follow-up Bisu had if that had happened.. Im pretty sure as Pros, they have follow-up for most imaginable situations after the opening, and just won't go "oh fuck" should Wookie decided to have enough money to build a Forge. And yea, im pretty sure even if Wookie built a forge he would have been MEGA behind regardless. 400 + 100 + 150 + 150 (Nexus + Pylon + Forge + Canoon) = 800, and an Eternity of no mining. That's if he has the money in the first place. If he had placed down a Forge, Bisu would have simply not leap-frogging cannon but tech/eco up at home and roll him a few minutes later. @ George_the_man I think it should have been common knowledge by now that if u didn't manage to scout a cheese, you are pretty much screwed. 3-Gate-Goons and couldn't scout his DT-first? Dead. CC-first and didn't scout his Proxy Rax? Dead. PvP and didn't scout Cannon Rush? Well expect the same. It really isn't hard to walk your probie down the ledge another 2-3 seconds and check for any shenanigans. Not to mention you can block the ramp and prevent their probe from going down if you scouted it late (~time Forge completes). It really isn`t 400+100+150+150=800. It`s more like 150 (forge)=150. He built his nexus anyway so you should not count that. He also had his pylon there anyway (for shield battery lol :D ). And he needs ONE cannon only in case bisu continues with his push. And even if you say that it`s 800 minerals,then count how many did Bisu spend + he had like 10 probes less than Wooki. So..I`m like 100% sure that with forge the game would become pretty much standard,even game. Oh no, i was not saying that he lost an extra 800. I meant it that he had to spend 800 by that time, all the while had no mining done (Nexus takes forever to warp in T_T), so he probably wouldn't have had the spare money (does he even have money for Forge + Pylon + Cannon? Took a while for his nat's Pylon to go up right?). Bisu's eco defnly took a hit from his early probe out, but i would imagine that his economic loss would have been much less severe than that of Wooki. Though i believe that it is merely our difference in estimating the variables I thought expanding in response to getting rushed was a brilliant response, but the decision not to make a forge/cannon to halt the leapfrogging cannons was the mistake. Remember, Bisu had no kind of attacking units at all .. leave a Zealot at Bisu's natural, and Bisu would have no way to expand, while Wooki has twice the probe production capability. Once Wookie gets out like 3, or even 2 Dragooons, he could take out the cannons in his main and resume having a full 2-base economy, being advantaged in tech and econ. The verdict? Bisu's cannon rush is easy as hell to block, once you think about the proper counter. As long as the cannons do not control your ramp area, you are fine, so you should only scout up to a 1/4th-1/3rd of that back ridge. and Wooki definitely had the money to make a pylon/forge/cannon, its not like he wasn't mining at all lol @Sawamura The problem, as you put it, mainly is the fact that Wooki seemed to think "No way im getting cheesed tonight!" and took the risk of not scouting, base on that assumption.
Dude , he scouted to like 1/4th of cliff length (as the first Protoss in PvP on Chain Reaction) , so your statement is wrong ,
ArvickHero point of view when he said about 1/4th cliff scouting sounds ok and counter to that cannon rush might be that easy, i really wish i could see how would more experienced toss react to this but i doubt we will see this strat used again, protoss will be so carefull about this now..
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10387 Posts
On January 08 2012 10:41 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:42 ArvickHero wrote:On January 08 2012 07:22 ffreakk wrote:On January 08 2012 07:17 Vuk_91 wrote:On January 08 2012 07:10 ffreakk wrote:On January 08 2012 06:49 Vuk_91 wrote:On January 08 2012 06:17 George_the_man wrote:
im cool , im just wondering what is the best tactic to protect vs that kind of cheese , cause canon rush in PvP on that maps works so good, like Wooki looked for for cheese but he didnt go low enough to see pylon , wasnt even close , and even if he did it would take so much time for probes to climb up on that hill that 1st cannon would prolly be warped anyway..? If that cheese was so good,then everyone would use it. And if Wooki built a forge as soon as he saw that first cannon...He would have easily defended his natural (with only one cannon). Off topic, but im rather curious what follow-up Bisu had if that had happened.. Im pretty sure as Pros, they have follow-up for most imaginable situations after the opening, and just won't go "oh fuck" should Wookie decided to have enough money to build a Forge. And yea, im pretty sure even if Wookie built a forge he would have been MEGA behind regardless. 400 + 100 + 150 + 150 (Nexus + Pylon + Forge + Canoon) = 800, and an Eternity of no mining. That's if he has the money in the first place. If he had placed down a Forge, Bisu would have simply not leap-frogging cannon but tech/eco up at home and roll him a few minutes later. @ George_the_man I think it should have been common knowledge by now that if u didn't manage to scout a cheese, you are pretty much screwed. 3-Gate-Goons and couldn't scout his DT-first? Dead. CC-first and didn't scout his Proxy Rax? Dead. PvP and didn't scout Cannon Rush? Well expect the same. It really isn't hard to walk your probie down the ledge another 2-3 seconds and check for any shenanigans. Not to mention you can block the ramp and prevent their probe from going down if you scouted it late (~time Forge completes). It really isn`t 400+100+150+150=800. It`s more like 150 (forge)=150. He built his nexus anyway so you should not count that. He also had his pylon there anyway (for shield battery lol :D ). And he needs ONE cannon only in case bisu continues with his push. And even if you say that it`s 800 minerals,then count how many did Bisu spend + he had like 10 probes less than Wooki. So..I`m like 100% sure that with forge the game would become pretty much standard,even game. Oh no, i was not saying that he lost an extra 800. I meant it that he had to spend 800 by that time, all the while had no mining done (Nexus takes forever to warp in T_T), so he probably wouldn't have had the spare money (does he even have money for Forge + Pylon + Cannon? Took a while for his nat's Pylon to go up right?). Bisu's eco defnly took a hit from his early probe out, but i would imagine that his economic loss would have been much less severe than that of Wooki. Though i believe that it is merely our difference in estimating the variables I thought expanding in response to getting rushed was a brilliant response, but the decision not to make a forge/cannon to halt the leapfrogging cannons was the mistake. Remember, Bisu had no kind of attacking units at all .. leave a Zealot at Bisu's natural, and Bisu would have no way to expand, while Wooki has twice the probe production capability. Once Wookie gets out like 3, or even 2 Dragooons, he could take out the cannons in his main and resume having a full 2-base economy, being advantaged in tech and econ. The verdict? Bisu's cannon rush is easy as hell to block, once you think about the proper counter. As long as the cannons do not control your ramp area, you are fine, so you should only scout up to a 1/4th-1/3rd of that back ridge. and Wooki definitely had the money to make a pylon/forge/cannon, its not like he wasn't mining at all lol Hmm, sounds fair. But if he had Forge/Cannon (Bisu's probe constantly scouting out Wooki's nat area), Bisu would likely give up the cannon aggression altogether, and instead build a Gate and tech up normally. "Fighting units" will come out in no time. It's true i can't verify it without actually doing it, but bottom line is, i believe the build that he used should have been heavily tested out in SKT training house. If the counter was so simple, it likely would have been found out already, and either a follow-up would have been devised, or Bisu wouldn't have used the build at all. I don't think a Cheese that can be easily countered despite being unscouted will be used at all in Pro games.
Well think of it this way: Wooki was also scouting Bisu's cannon leapfrog. If Wooki scouts the leapfrogging, it will warrant a forge to being built. The Pylon/cannon does not have to be built until Bisu reaches sufficiently close to the ramp/nat. If Bisu doesn't do any more cannon shenanigans, then Wooki does not have to build the forge. Bisu's probe was also never scouting the main, which is where the forge can be placed.
If you haven't played against a cannon rush strategy before, Bisu's cheese will work great. When you're in-game and playing, you can't exactly think calmly and formulate the perfect response in time. The thought of a cannon rush strategy in a progame is so outlandish that many pros will often just rule out the possibility altogether. Bisu's strategy is truly a "one-off" strategy, because once you anticipate it and know of the proper counter beforehand, it's completely dead.
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On January 08 2012 12:06 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 10:41 ffreakk wrote:On January 08 2012 09:42 ArvickHero wrote:On January 08 2012 07:22 ffreakk wrote:On January 08 2012 07:17 Vuk_91 wrote:On January 08 2012 07:10 ffreakk wrote:On January 08 2012 06:49 Vuk_91 wrote:On January 08 2012 06:17 George_the_man wrote:
im cool , im just wondering what is the best tactic to protect vs that kind of cheese , cause canon rush in PvP on that maps works so good, like Wooki looked for for cheese but he didnt go low enough to see pylon , wasnt even close , and even if he did it would take so much time for probes to climb up on that hill that 1st cannon would prolly be warped anyway..? If that cheese was so good,then everyone would use it. And if Wooki built a forge as soon as he saw that first cannon...He would have easily defended his natural (with only one cannon). Off topic, but im rather curious what follow-up Bisu had if that had happened.. Im pretty sure as Pros, they have follow-up for most imaginable situations after the opening, and just won't go "oh fuck" should Wookie decided to have enough money to build a Forge. And yea, im pretty sure even if Wookie built a forge he would have been MEGA behind regardless. 400 + 100 + 150 + 150 (Nexus + Pylon + Forge + Canoon) = 800, and an Eternity of no mining. That's if he has the money in the first place. If he had placed down a Forge, Bisu would have simply not leap-frogging cannon but tech/eco up at home and roll him a few minutes later. @ George_the_man I think it should have been common knowledge by now that if u didn't manage to scout a cheese, you are pretty much screwed. 3-Gate-Goons and couldn't scout his DT-first? Dead. CC-first and didn't scout his Proxy Rax? Dead. PvP and didn't scout Cannon Rush? Well expect the same. It really isn't hard to walk your probie down the ledge another 2-3 seconds and check for any shenanigans. Not to mention you can block the ramp and prevent their probe from going down if you scouted it late (~time Forge completes). It really isn`t 400+100+150+150=800. It`s more like 150 (forge)=150. He built his nexus anyway so you should not count that. He also had his pylon there anyway (for shield battery lol :D ). And he needs ONE cannon only in case bisu continues with his push. And even if you say that it`s 800 minerals,then count how many did Bisu spend + he had like 10 probes less than Wooki. So..I`m like 100% sure that with forge the game would become pretty much standard,even game. Oh no, i was not saying that he lost an extra 800. I meant it that he had to spend 800 by that time, all the while had no mining done (Nexus takes forever to warp in T_T), so he probably wouldn't have had the spare money (does he even have money for Forge + Pylon + Cannon? Took a while for his nat's Pylon to go up right?). Bisu's eco defnly took a hit from his early probe out, but i would imagine that his economic loss would have been much less severe than that of Wooki. Though i believe that it is merely our difference in estimating the variables I thought expanding in response to getting rushed was a brilliant response, but the decision not to make a forge/cannon to halt the leapfrogging cannons was the mistake. Remember, Bisu had no kind of attacking units at all .. leave a Zealot at Bisu's natural, and Bisu would have no way to expand, while Wooki has twice the probe production capability. Once Wookie gets out like 3, or even 2 Dragooons, he could take out the cannons in his main and resume having a full 2-base economy, being advantaged in tech and econ. The verdict? Bisu's cannon rush is easy as hell to block, once you think about the proper counter. As long as the cannons do not control your ramp area, you are fine, so you should only scout up to a 1/4th-1/3rd of that back ridge. and Wooki definitely had the money to make a pylon/forge/cannon, its not like he wasn't mining at all lol Hmm, sounds fair. But if he had Forge/Cannon (Bisu's probe constantly scouting out Wooki's nat area), Bisu would likely give up the cannon aggression altogether, and instead build a Gate and tech up normally. "Fighting units" will come out in no time. It's true i can't verify it without actually doing it, but bottom line is, i believe the build that he used should have been heavily tested out in SKT training house. If the counter was so simple, it likely would have been found out already, and either a follow-up would have been devised, or Bisu wouldn't have used the build at all. I don't think a Cheese that can be easily countered despite being unscouted will be used at all in Pro games. Well think of it this way: Wooki was also scouting Bisu's cannon leapfrog. If Wooki scouts the leapfrogging, it will warrant a forge to being built. The Pylon/cannon does not have to be built until Bisu reaches sufficiently close to the ramp/nat. If Bisu doesn't do any more cannon shenanigans, then Wooki does not have to build the forge. Bisu's probe was also never scouting the main, which is where the forge can be placed. If you haven't played against a cannon rush strategy before, Bisu's cheese will work great. When you're in-game and playing, you can't exactly think calmly and formulate the perfect response in time. The thought of a cannon rush strategy in a progame is so outlandish that many pros will often just rule out the possibility altogether. Bisu's strategy is truly a "one-off" strategy, because once you anticipate it and know of the proper counter beforehand, it's completely dead.
Ok, me being the Sair and you being the Archon, i ll take your word for it :3
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On January 08 2012 10:53 elagrion wrote:And for those who telling about Bisu and metagame, please review a PvZ matchup in past 5 years, and get enlightened .
I prefer kal's PvZ play style to be honest , sairs and Reavers the perfect couple <3 , who needs DT ........
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On January 08 2012 15:41 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 10:53 elagrion wrote:And for those who telling about Bisu and metagame, please review a PvZ matchup in past 5 years, and get enlightened . I prefer kal's PvZ play style to be honest , sairs and Reavers the perfect couple <3 , who needs DT ........
I don't know why anyone ever considers that Kal's style of PvZ. Sair reaver has been around for ages, and every top PvZer mixes it into his games every now and then, even Stork used to do it lots(admittedly when he was still terrible at PvZ). Kal neither does it particularly often, even compared to the likes of Bisu, nor does he do it particularly well, it just so happens that he lacks any sort of 'flavour' or 'style' in his PvZ except the few times when he is doing sair reaver.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On January 08 2012 16:34 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 15:41 Sawamura wrote:On January 08 2012 10:53 elagrion wrote:And for those who telling about Bisu and metagame, please review a PvZ matchup in past 5 years, and get enlightened . I prefer kal's PvZ play style to be honest , sairs and Reavers the perfect couple <3 , who needs DT ........ I don't know why anyone ever considers that Kal's style of PvZ. Sair reaver has been around for ages, and every top PvZer mixes it into his games every now and then, even Stork used to do it lots(admittedly when he was still terrible at PvZ). Kal neither does it particularly often, even compared to the likes of Bisu, nor does he do it particularly well, it just so happens that he lacks any sort of 'flavour' or 'style' in his PvZ except the few times when he is doing sair reaver.
Im not certain, but for some reason I always think of Kal when I think Sair reaver, and when he does it succesfully its usually beautifull play.
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On January 08 2012 19:47 Kipsate wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 16:34 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:On January 08 2012 15:41 Sawamura wrote:On January 08 2012 10:53 elagrion wrote:And for those who telling about Bisu and metagame, please review a PvZ matchup in past 5 years, and get enlightened . I prefer kal's PvZ play style to be honest , sairs and Reavers the perfect couple <3 , who needs DT ........ I don't know why anyone ever considers that Kal's style of PvZ. Sair reaver has been around for ages, and every top PvZer mixes it into his games every now and then, even Stork used to do it lots(admittedly when he was still terrible at PvZ). Kal neither does it particularly often, even compared to the likes of Bisu, nor does he do it particularly well, it just so happens that he lacks any sort of 'flavour' or 'style' in his PvZ except the few times when he is doing sair reaver. Im not certain, but for some reason I always think of Kal when I think Sair reaver, and when he does it succesfully its usually beautifull play.
Well, if you talk about Siar-Reaver, I think of Stork. Bisu's build is different, you can always equate Bisu to DT. He lost that PL Finals game because he was blind hard countered by his opponents build in PvP.
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Could someone explain me (a total noob) what exactly happened in game 1.
What was the idea behind n.Die_soO's build? Was it just super epic from Flash to scout one of the expos or was it just an unusual attack/timing or what threw him off?
thanks in advance!
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On January 09 2012 05:02 WerderBremen wrote:
Could someone explain me (a total noob) what exactly happened in game 1.
What was the idea behind n.Die_soO's build? Was it just super epic from Flash to scout one of the expos or was it just an unusual attack/timing or what threw him off?
thanks in advance!
Im no expert, but Flash seemingly scouted that soO was playing greedy (skimping on Lings), so he moved out with that tiny force looking to punish (super risky imho, given the cross spawn). Adding on to that, soO's scout Ling that's s'posed to spot these kinda things got to it's position (outside Flash's natural) a few pixels late, and missed the force all together. Once the force hit, soO couldn't do anything but just die (Medic > low DPS).
Im positive Flash was primarily looking to force a Sunken and/or force soO to make Lings instead of Drones with his Larvae, instead of ending the game outright.
And soO build looks to be a relatively normal 3H Muta (replacing some Lings w Drones, and 3rd Hatch at the in-base minerals-only), right?
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Thanks for your explanation. I could imagine it was a greedy build but you added some interesting aspects
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On January 07 2012 13:04 TheKefka wrote:
This is like a hyped up boxing match that turned into mud wrestling hahahaha.
Story of MMA <<
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Damn it T1. lose it up plz
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EPT
