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On January 08 2012 07:18 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 07:09 sviatoslavrichter wrote:On January 08 2012 06:35 Kiett wrote:On January 08 2012 06:17 George_the_man wrote:
im cool , im just wondering what is the best tactic to protect vs that kind of cheese , cause canon rush in PvP on that maps works so good, like Wooki looked for for cheese but he didnt go low enough to see pylon , wasnt even close , and even if he did it would take so much time for probes to climb up on that hill that 1st cannon would prolly be warped anyway..? He should have scouted it, and then built his own forge. I feel bad for Wooki, but meh, you learn something every time you get cheesed so badly. If Bisu didnt do it this time, soneone would have eventually. The more you get cheesed, the more you learn to scout more carefully and have better crisis management. Rofl, fans like you are hilarious. If Bisu had gotten scouted you would have been whining about how disappointing of a game it was and how much Wooki is such an inferior player he has to cheese Bisu. But when Bisu cheeses you talk about how it's a good learning experience for Wooki? Seriously get over yourself. It's a game, cheese happens. If anything just be glad Bisu is finally learning from Flash, the best player to ever touch SC. If there's any reason i ll ever hate Flash, it's guys like this. Holy shit, Show nested quote + If anything just be glad Bisu is finally learning from Flash, the best player to ever touch SC. ? It's almost as if BoXeR didn't exist, and Flash has a patent on cheesing every1 else is copying him. is best reserved for you. And another silly thing is your "If -yada yada yada-, you guys would have acted moronically like we did too (paraphrased)". The only ones whining are you and some others who sport a Rolster icon. You are spoiling the name of people like Blind, or even TwoToneTerran who while being biased, is not an idiot.
Bro, no one is whining in this thread. All I see are some SKT fanboys gloating about Bisu cheesing a rookie, the same SKT fanboys who whined incessantly about Flash being a "cheesy fucking noob" (to quote Kiante).
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On January 08 2012 07:09 sviatoslavrichter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 06:35 Kiett wrote:On January 08 2012 06:17 George_the_man wrote:
im cool , im just wondering what is the best tactic to protect vs that kind of cheese , cause canon rush in PvP on that maps works so good, like Wooki looked for for cheese but he didnt go low enough to see pylon , wasnt even close , and even if he did it would take so much time for probes to climb up on that hill that 1st cannon would prolly be warped anyway..? He should have scouted it, and then built his own forge. I feel bad for Wooki, but meh, you learn something every time you get cheesed so badly. If Bisu didnt do it this time, soneone would have eventually. The more you get cheesed, the more you learn to scout more carefully and have better crisis management. Rofl, fans like you are hilarious. If Bisu had gotten cheesed you would have been whining about how disappointing of a game it was and how much Wooki is such an inferior player he has to cheese Bisu. But when Bisu cheeses you talk about how it's a good learning experience for Wooki? Seriously get over yourselves. It's a game, cheese happens. If anything just be glad Bisu is finally learning from Flash, the best player to ever touch SC.
It's you who are hilarious. Why isn't it a learning experience to Bisu if he get cheesed ? As a progamer he is supposed to have that mentality if he want to improve his play. And also why the hell is Flash included in this ? It just doesn't make any sense.
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On January 08 2012 05:08 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 04:56 Soft`Soap wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Just watched the vods
here are my thoughts
Game 1:
greedy build vs flash, didn't pay off and soo looked like a complete noob
seriously soo you have to see things like that coming wayyy before that
Game 2:
Hyuk had bo advantage and had ling advantage at the beginning and could've won the ling battle if he ran his lings by and had all his lings attack instead of having 5 of his lings move up the ramp
overall I think that hyuk played pretty bad and wasn't handling the harass good enough
I think action should've won and that way we would've seen a stats vs fanta match
Game 3:
It really seemed like wooki was going to check for a cannon rush but i guess he didn't lol
in that game you can really see how a rookie's crisis management mentality is
he never got a forge
and he expanded to his natural
both were bad decisions and bisu capitalized on them
Game 4:
i said it before and i'll say it again
best is going to be a BEAST this year
i really like his double stargate play and he was really active with his corsairs
the day of the dohsairs might be over and best completely dismantled hoejja
he needs to be a little more aware of what's going on though
he knew that hoejja had early burrow but yet he got denied an expansion and lost a few HT to a few burrowed lings
After game thoughts:
SKT's zerg lineup needs to improve or there is no way they're going to win this PL season, despite currently being #1 I also want to see more of by.sun it seems that after his demoralizing loss to SK, he hasn't seen any game time (besides his game vs turn) at least put him up vs flash and see how he does, he did do really good vs sea (didn't see his game vs turn) + Show Spoiler +Also, I wish i got to see stats vs fanta =\
overall,
BOO YEAH
SKT 3-1 again He (by.Sun) just got out of hospital after a surgery. Rather than his demoralizing lost to SK, i would assume that (leading to lack of practice + health condition) would be the reason that he has not been fielded in the recent games. A good thing we have enough strength to win regardless, tho i would have liked to see him play and accumulate experience  Edit: Kamikami too fast T_T
On January 08 2012 05:06 kamikami wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 04:56 Soft`Soap wrote:
I also want to see more of by.sun it seems that after his demoralizing loss to SK, he hasn't seen any game time (besides his game vs turn)
at least put him up vs flash and see how he does, he did do really good vs sea (didn't see his game vs turn)
He cannot play because he's recently had a surgery and need to rest.
Thanks guys
I actually never knew he recently had surgery lol
Hopefully he gets fielded soon!
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On January 08 2012 07:22 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 07:17 Vuk_91 wrote:On January 08 2012 07:10 ffreakk wrote:On January 08 2012 06:49 Vuk_91 wrote:On January 08 2012 06:17 George_the_man wrote:
im cool , im just wondering what is the best tactic to protect vs that kind of cheese , cause canon rush in PvP on that maps works so good, like Wooki looked for for cheese but he didnt go low enough to see pylon , wasnt even close , and even if he did it would take so much time for probes to climb up on that hill that 1st cannon would prolly be warped anyway..? If that cheese was so good,then everyone would use it. And if Wooki built a forge as soon as he saw that first cannon...He would have easily defended his natural (with only one cannon). Off topic, but im rather curious what follow-up Bisu had if that had happened.. Im pretty sure as Pros, they have follow-up for most imaginable situations after the opening, and just won't go "oh fuck" should Wookie decided to have enough money to build a Forge. And yea, im pretty sure even if Wookie built a forge he would have been MEGA behind regardless. 400 + 100 + 150 + 150 (Nexus + Pylon + Forge + Canoon) = 800, and an Eternity of no mining. That's if he has the money in the first place. If he had placed down a Forge, Bisu would have simply not leap-frogging cannon but tech/eco up at home and roll him a few minutes later. @ George_the_man I think it should have been common knowledge by now that if u didn't manage to scout a cheese, you are pretty much screwed. 3-Gate-Goons and couldn't scout his DT-first? Dead. CC-first and didn't scout his Proxy Rax? Dead. PvP and didn't scout Cannon Rush? Well expect the same. It really isn't hard to walk your probie down the ledge another 2-3 seconds and check for any shenanigans. Not to mention you can block the ramp and prevent their probe from going down if you scouted it late (~time Forge completes). It really isn`t 400+100+150+150=800. It`s more like 150 (forge)=150. He built his nexus anyway so you should not count that. He also had his pylon there anyway (for shield battery lol :D ). And he needs ONE cannon only in case bisu continues with his push. And even if you say that it`s 800 minerals,then count how many did Bisu spend + he had like 10 probes less than Wooki. So..I`m like 100% sure that with forge the game would become pretty much standard,even game. Oh no, i was not saying that he lost an extra 800. I meant it that he had to spend 800 by that time, all the while had no mining done (Nexus takes forever to warp in T_T), so he probably wouldn't have had the spare money (does he even have money for Forge + Pylon + Cannon? Took a while for his nat's Pylon to go up right?). Bisu's eco defnly took a hit from his early probe out, but i would imagine that his economic loss would have been much less severe than that of Wooki. Though i imagine that it is merely our difference in estimating the variables
Well,at least he was distance mining and it`s not that far away from the main. And Bisu invested in 3-4 cannons + pylon even before he started to push to the natural.
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And regarding the whole bisu cheesing wooki thing
honestly guys get over it
when the better player cheeses the lesser player do you really need to bring in so much drama?
it's not like bisu is scared of wooki or anything, the map was a good map to do so and I'm sure that whether he was playing wooki or stats in that map, he planned to cannon rush
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On January 08 2012 07:26 kamikami wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 07:09 sviatoslavrichter wrote:On January 08 2012 06:35 Kiett wrote:On January 08 2012 06:17 George_the_man wrote:
im cool , im just wondering what is the best tactic to protect vs that kind of cheese , cause canon rush in PvP on that maps works so good, like Wooki looked for for cheese but he didnt go low enough to see pylon , wasnt even close , and even if he did it would take so much time for probes to climb up on that hill that 1st cannon would prolly be warped anyway..? He should have scouted it, and then built his own forge. I feel bad for Wooki, but meh, you learn something every time you get cheesed so badly. If Bisu didnt do it this time, soneone would have eventually. The more you get cheesed, the more you learn to scout more carefully and have better crisis management. Rofl, fans like you are hilarious. If Bisu had gotten cheesed you would have been whining about how disappointing of a game it was and how much Wooki is such an inferior player he has to cheese Bisu. But when Bisu cheeses you talk about how it's a good learning experience for Wooki? Seriously get over yourselves. It's a game, cheese happens. If anything just be glad Bisu is finally learning from Flash, the best player to ever touch SC. It's you who are hilarious. Why isn't it a learning experience to Bisu if he get cheesed ? As a progamer he is supposed to have that mentality if he want to improve his play. And also why the hell is Flash included in this ? It just doesn't make any sense.
Good, since we are in agreement, promise me, Kami, the next time Bisu gets cheesed, I want you to post in the LR thread, "I feel bad for Bisu, but meh, you learn something every time you get cheesed so badly.... the more you get cheesed, the more you learn to scout more carefully and have better crisis management."
Looking forward to seeing something like that come out of an SKT fan 
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On January 08 2012 07:30 Soft`Soap wrote:
And regarding the whole bisu cheesing wooki thing
honestly guys get over it
when the better player cheeses the lesser player do you really need to bring in so much drama?
it's not like bisu is scared of wooki or anything, the map was a good map to do so and I'm sure that whether he was playing wooki or stats in that map, he planned to cannon rush
Yeah seriously it's not a big deal. So why blame Flash when he cheeses?
All I'm asking for is a little reciprocity here.
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On January 08 2012 07:25 sviatoslavrichter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 07:18 ffreakk wrote:On January 08 2012 07:09 sviatoslavrichter wrote:On January 08 2012 06:35 Kiett wrote:On January 08 2012 06:17 George_the_man wrote:
im cool , im just wondering what is the best tactic to protect vs that kind of cheese , cause canon rush in PvP on that maps works so good, like Wooki looked for for cheese but he didnt go low enough to see pylon , wasnt even close , and even if he did it would take so much time for probes to climb up on that hill that 1st cannon would prolly be warped anyway..? He should have scouted it, and then built his own forge. I feel bad for Wooki, but meh, you learn something every time you get cheesed so badly. If Bisu didnt do it this time, soneone would have eventually. The more you get cheesed, the more you learn to scout more carefully and have better crisis management. Rofl, fans like you are hilarious. If Bisu had gotten scouted you would have been whining about how disappointing of a game it was and how much Wooki is such an inferior player he has to cheese Bisu. But when Bisu cheeses you talk about how it's a good learning experience for Wooki? Seriously get over yourself. It's a game, cheese happens. If anything just be glad Bisu is finally learning from Flash, the best player to ever touch SC. If there's any reason i ll ever hate Flash, it's guys like this. Holy shit, If anything just be glad Bisu is finally learning from Flash, the best player to ever touch SC. ? It's almost as if BoXeR didn't exist, and Flash has a patent on cheesing every1 else is copying him. Seriously get over yourselves. is best reserved for you. And another silly thing is your "If -yada yada yada-, you guys would have acted moronically like we did too (paraphrased)". The only ones whining are you and some others who sport a Rolster icon. You are spoiling the name of people like Blind, or even TwoToneTerran who while being biased, is not an idiot. Bro, no one is whining in this thread. All I see are some SKT fanboys gloating about Bisu cheesing a rookie, the same SKT fanboys who whined incessantly about Flash being a "cheesy fucking noob" (to quote Kiante).
Hahahaha that cracked me up for real, that bit about whining. I had a (slightly) hard time deciding between quoting a few pages full of Sawamura's posts, quoting your posts, or just save myself the trouble and write a Lol message like this one.
@George_the_man
Forgot to reply you earlier. Anyway it's part of the metagame. If Wookie didn't want to detour his scouting probe in fear of getting ramp-blocked, he could have sent a 2nd probe there to check, then come back to mine. Or he can take the risk of Cannon Rush. Progamers play upwards of 50 games a day or something, so im sure Wooki's had MANY PvP on his designated map. He took a risk with his scouting pattern, and it didn't pay off for him. Bisu took lotsa risk too.. If his initial Probe had been found, he would have been screwed, big time.
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geez i wanted only make a conversation about cannon rush PvP on Chain Reaction , where did that all drama come from ....
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On January 08 2012 07:30 sviatoslavrichter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 07:26 kamikami wrote:On January 08 2012 07:09 sviatoslavrichter wrote:On January 08 2012 06:35 Kiett wrote:On January 08 2012 06:17 George_the_man wrote:
im cool , im just wondering what is the best tactic to protect vs that kind of cheese , cause canon rush in PvP on that maps works so good, like Wooki looked for for cheese but he didnt go low enough to see pylon , wasnt even close , and even if he did it would take so much time for probes to climb up on that hill that 1st cannon would prolly be warped anyway..? He should have scouted it, and then built his own forge. I feel bad for Wooki, but meh, you learn something every time you get cheesed so badly. If Bisu didnt do it this time, soneone would have eventually. The more you get cheesed, the more you learn to scout more carefully and have better crisis management. Rofl, fans like you are hilarious. If Bisu had gotten cheesed you would have been whining about how disappointing of a game it was and how much Wooki is such an inferior player he has to cheese Bisu. But when Bisu cheeses you talk about how it's a good learning experience for Wooki? Seriously get over yourselves. It's a game, cheese happens. If anything just be glad Bisu is finally learning from Flash, the best player to ever touch SC. It's you who are hilarious. Why isn't it a learning experience to Bisu if he get cheesed ? As a progamer he is supposed to have that mentality if he want to improve his play. And also why the hell is Flash included in this ? It just doesn't make any sense. Good, since we are in agreement, promise me, Kami, the next time Bisu gets cheesed, I want you to post in the LR thread, "I feel bad for Bisu, but meh, you learn something every time you get cheesed so badly.... the more you get cheesed, the more you learn to scout more carefully and have better crisis management." Looking forward to seeing something like that come out of an SKT fan
OK, I'll post that the next time he get cheesed, the only exception is when he get cheesed by a KT player =)
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On January 08 2012 07:32 sviatoslavrichter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 07:30 Soft`Soap wrote:
And regarding the whole bisu cheesing wooki thing
honestly guys get over it
when the better player cheeses the lesser player do you really need to bring in so much drama?
it's not like bisu is scared of wooki or anything, the map was a good map to do so and I'm sure that whether he was playing wooki or stats in that map, he planned to cannon rush
Yeah seriously it's not a big deal. So why blame Flash when he cheeses? All I'm asking for is a little reciprocity here.
So why didn't you blame Bisu for cheesing for "a little reciprocity" ? Instead you offended SKT fans for no reason and out of all people, you choosed to attack Kiett who have never said a bad thing about Flash ?
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United States7639 Posts
On January 08 2012 07:09 sviatoslavrichter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 06:35 Kiett wrote:On January 08 2012 06:17 George_the_man wrote:
im cool , im just wondering what is the best tactic to protect vs that kind of cheese , cause canon rush in PvP on that maps works so good, like Wooki looked for for cheese but he didnt go low enough to see pylon , wasnt even close , and even if he did it would take so much time for probes to climb up on that hill that 1st cannon would prolly be warped anyway..? He should have scouted it, and then built his own forge. I feel bad for Wooki, but meh, you learn something every time you get cheesed so badly. If Bisu didnt do it this time, soneone would have eventually. The more you get cheesed, the more you learn to scout more carefully and have better crisis management. Rofl, fans like you are hilarious. If Bisu had gotten cheesed you would have been whining about how disappointing of a game it was and how much Wooki is such an inferior player he has to cheese Bisu. But when Bisu cheeses you talk about how it's a good learning experience for Wooki? Seriously get over yourselves. It's a game, cheese happens. If anything just be glad Bisu is finally learning from Flash, the best player to ever touch SC.
Excuse me? Fans like me? I've never ever bitched about Bisu getting cheesed, whether it was by Flash or even Shine. Stop your ridiculous generalizations. Just because I made one post directly answering someone else's question as to how to deal with that situation doesn't mean you get to act all patronizing like you know how "fans like me" act. If Bisu had lost to Wooki's cheese, then yeah I would fucking hope he learned something from it. The last time Stork got hydra busted, I was far more disappointed by his inability to scout and defend it properly than I was with CH's decision to 3HH, nor did I say shit against KT for it. So you can drop that disgusting attitude. You're the only one picking fights here -_-
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On January 08 2012 07:32 sviatoslavrichter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 07:30 Soft`Soap wrote:
And regarding the whole bisu cheesing wooki thing
honestly guys get over it
when the better player cheeses the lesser player do you really need to bring in so much drama?
it's not like bisu is scared of wooki or anything, the map was a good map to do so and I'm sure that whether he was playing wooki or stats in that map, he planned to cannon rush
Yeah seriously it's not a big deal. So why blame Flash when he cheeses? All I'm asking for is a little reciprocity here.
Who is this lost_romantic?
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On January 08 2012 08:24 Kiett wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 07:09 sviatoslavrichter wrote:On January 08 2012 06:35 Kiett wrote:On January 08 2012 06:17 George_the_man wrote:
im cool , im just wondering what is the best tactic to protect vs that kind of cheese , cause canon rush in PvP on that maps works so good, like Wooki looked for for cheese but he didnt go low enough to see pylon , wasnt even close , and even if he did it would take so much time for probes to climb up on that hill that 1st cannon would prolly be warped anyway..? He should have scouted it, and then built his own forge. I feel bad for Wooki, but meh, you learn something every time you get cheesed so badly. If Bisu didnt do it this time, soneone would have eventually. The more you get cheesed, the more you learn to scout more carefully and have better crisis management. Rofl, fans like you are hilarious. If Bisu had gotten cheesed you would have been whining about how disappointing of a game it was and how much Wooki is such an inferior player he has to cheese Bisu. But when Bisu cheeses you talk about how it's a good learning experience for Wooki? Seriously get over yourselves. It's a game, cheese happens. If anything just be glad Bisu is finally learning from Flash, the best player to ever touch SC. Excuse me? Fans like me? I've never ever bitched about Bisu getting cheesed, whether it was by Flash or even Shine. Stop your ridiculous generalizations. Just because I made one post directly answering someone else's question as to how to deal with that situation doesn't mean you get to act all patronizing like you know how "fans like me" act. If Bisu had lost to Wooki's cheese, then yeah I would fucking hope he learned something from it. The last time Stork got hydra busted, I was far more disappointed by his inability to scout and defend it properly than I was with CH's decision to 3HH, nor did I say shit against KT for it. So you can drop that disgusting attitude. You're the only one picking fights here -_-
So why didn't you blame Bisu for cheesing for "a little reciprocity" ? Instead you offended SKT fans for no reason and out of all people, you choosed to attack Kiett who have never said a bad thing about Flash ? [/QUOTE]
I'm glad to see Bisu cheese. In addition to it being reciprocal (which is awesome--bring it on), it shows me he's learning. One thing I've never understood is Bisu's stubborn inability to play the metagame, and "play 10 games ahead" (what Oov said about Flash). Now it's very true--opposing P's will be afraid to run the tightly-wound snipe builds against him that have cost him games in the past, because of this one cheese. Indeed this will not only influence the players themselves, but also the coaches, as they will have to tell the players to play safe against Bisu. This is exactly why Flash wins everything, and I'm glad to see Bisu learning from the best.
Is it good for Wooki? Not really. The game sense and crisis management to figure out how to deflect a cheese like this is something you pick up at C level on iCCup. But once Wooki committed to his tightly wound snipe build to kill Bisu, which I'm sure he spent about a week working on, there was no way for him to deflect the build in any cost effective manner. So what Kiett said is well-meaning, but essentially patronizing and highly incorrect. But Bisu did teach Wooki a lesson...
What happened here is that one player cheesed because he (correctly) predicted that his opponent had spent a week prepping a snipe. The progamer metagame has evolved much, much further than a simple "oh, practice harder" or "oh, he has sick multitask" or "oh, his in-game decisionmaking is really good." No. The best progamers are the ones who make their opponents waste practice time. Bisu just made Wooki waste a week of practice time. The lesson Bisu taught Wooki is precisely that--that Broodwar is all about using every advantage you get, inside and outside of the booth, and built on carefully not only how your opponents play inside the booth, but also how they spend their time practicing.
This is why Flash is the best player of all time. Because he flat-out declares he goes into each match without a strategy, and practices a generalized set of responses rather than map-specific or opponent-specific actions. His talent, if you can call it that, is his ability to read the intentions behind his opponent before he even steps into the booth, and pick and choose his general set of responses without any discernable pattern. Just look at what he did to Jaedong in 2010--14cc into midgame mech and bio pushes in the MSLs then switching into standard plays before finishing the OSL with a 5rax.
Of course, you can talk about race here. Flash plays the imba race, of course, but not because Terran's a turtling race or tanks are OP. Rather, it's because Terran has scan. Flash knows how to scan, and interpret his scan, better than any other player alive, while developing builds that are flexible up until the very last moment, all the while using his build choices to get into the heads of all the other progamers and force them to spend practice hours countering the wrong things.
We saw that on full display with Flash's games vs. Modesty and vs. Soo today. Soo expected Flash to do the same build that he did vs Modesty on Electric Circuit (mass turrets + Vessel rushing) but got completely rolled because Flash scanned his drone count. What was completely sexy was when the observer moused over Flash's fast armory; Flash build that after he was pushing out--he knew he was going to win at that point. Flash built that to fuck with all the other progamers that are practicing to beat him., to make them waste time on yet another possible mid-game variation That is the epitome of Starcraft and that is why I am so glad that Bisu is finally learning.
Oh, and Kiett, sorry for lumping you in unfairly. I should have probably quoted someone else's post for that.
btw: Why even ban PBUs anyhow when you can just make a new account and relogin with a proxy? The only real effect is a name change and a post counter reset. Unfortunately, Harem, no matter how good you are at memorizing "the user's posting habits and use of vocabulary", you can't beat a good IP randomizer...
User was banned for this post.
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On January 08 2012 07:34 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 07:25 sviatoslavrichter wrote:On January 08 2012 07:18 ffreakk wrote:On January 08 2012 07:09 sviatoslavrichter wrote:On January 08 2012 06:35 Kiett wrote:On January 08 2012 06:17 George_the_man wrote:
im cool , im just wondering what is the best tactic to protect vs that kind of cheese , cause canon rush in PvP on that maps works so good, like Wooki looked for for cheese but he didnt go low enough to see pylon , wasnt even close , and even if he did it would take so much time for probes to climb up on that hill that 1st cannon would prolly be warped anyway..? He should have scouted it, and then built his own forge. I feel bad for Wooki, but meh, you learn something every time you get cheesed so badly. If Bisu didnt do it this time, soneone would have eventually. The more you get cheesed, the more you learn to scout more carefully and have better crisis management. Rofl, fans like you are hilarious. If Bisu had gotten scouted you would have been whining about how disappointing of a game it was and how much Wooki is such an inferior player he has to cheese Bisu. But when Bisu cheeses you talk about how it's a good learning experience for Wooki? Seriously get over yourself. It's a game, cheese happens. If anything just be glad Bisu is finally learning from Flash, the best player to ever touch SC. If there's any reason i ll ever hate Flash, it's guys like this. Holy shit, If anything just be glad Bisu is finally learning from Flash, the best player to ever touch SC. ? It's almost as if BoXeR didn't exist, and Flash has a patent on cheesing every1 else is copying him. Seriously get over yourselves. is best reserved for you. And another silly thing is your "If -yada yada yada-, you guys would have acted moronically like we did too (paraphrased)". The only ones whining are you and some others who sport a Rolster icon. You are spoiling the name of people like Blind, or even TwoToneTerran who while being biased, is not an idiot. Bro, no one is whining in this thread. All I see are some SKT fanboys gloating about Bisu cheesing a rookie, the same SKT fanboys who whined incessantly about Flash being a "cheesy fucking noob" (to quote Kiante). Hahahaha that cracked me up for real, that bit about whining. I had a (slightly) hard time deciding between quoting a few pages full of Sawamura's posts, quoting your posts, or just save myself the trouble and write a Lol message like this one. @George_the_man Forgot to reply you earlier. Anyway it's part of the metagame. If Wookie didn't want to detour his scouting probe in fear of getting ramp-blocked, he could have sent a 2nd probe there to check, then come back to mine. Or he can take the risk of Cannon Rush. Progamers play upwards of 50 games a day or something, so im sure Wooki's had MANY PvP on his designated map. He took a risk with his scouting pattern, and it didn't pay off for him. Bisu took lotsa risk too.. If his initial Probe had been found, he would have been screwed, big time.
Very Risky move by Bisu yeah I suppose , Bisu sends probe at the start of the game, Note the only way WOOKI has a chance to scout this if he had cannon rush bisu using the same build order , cruises through the natural and plants a pylon at the far end of the cliff , okay risky indeed , FPVOD show's Wooki building a gate way already and a asimilator , Wooki only checks not even 10% of the cliff and pulls of the probe thinking " no way I am getting cheese tonight " .
How risky was wooki pattern if he actually check for proxy pylons behind his natural ? He was playing safe but he didn't expect the cannons to be put way behind the cliff.
Bisu proceeds to bring probe down and make cannons behind the natural line while having cannons on the cliff to back him up . Is that so Risky ? Brave when cannon rushing jaehoon , Was making a face of " Damn this is so easy " , Same thing for Bisu , He wasn't in a position to be at Risk not at all . In fact it was a 100% win build order as long no one scout's your proxy cannon .
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10387 Posts
On January 08 2012 07:22 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 07:17 Vuk_91 wrote:On January 08 2012 07:10 ffreakk wrote:On January 08 2012 06:49 Vuk_91 wrote:On January 08 2012 06:17 George_the_man wrote:
im cool , im just wondering what is the best tactic to protect vs that kind of cheese , cause canon rush in PvP on that maps works so good, like Wooki looked for for cheese but he didnt go low enough to see pylon , wasnt even close , and even if he did it would take so much time for probes to climb up on that hill that 1st cannon would prolly be warped anyway..? If that cheese was so good,then everyone would use it. And if Wooki built a forge as soon as he saw that first cannon...He would have easily defended his natural (with only one cannon). Off topic, but im rather curious what follow-up Bisu had if that had happened.. Im pretty sure as Pros, they have follow-up for most imaginable situations after the opening, and just won't go "oh fuck" should Wookie decided to have enough money to build a Forge. And yea, im pretty sure even if Wookie built a forge he would have been MEGA behind regardless. 400 + 100 + 150 + 150 (Nexus + Pylon + Forge + Canoon) = 800, and an Eternity of no mining. That's if he has the money in the first place. If he had placed down a Forge, Bisu would have simply not leap-frogging cannon but tech/eco up at home and roll him a few minutes later. @ George_the_man I think it should have been common knowledge by now that if u didn't manage to scout a cheese, you are pretty much screwed. 3-Gate-Goons and couldn't scout his DT-first? Dead. CC-first and didn't scout his Proxy Rax? Dead. PvP and didn't scout Cannon Rush? Well expect the same. It really isn't hard to walk your probie down the ledge another 2-3 seconds and check for any shenanigans. Not to mention you can block the ramp and prevent their probe from going down if you scouted it late (~time Forge completes). It really isn`t 400+100+150+150=800. It`s more like 150 (forge)=150. He built his nexus anyway so you should not count that. He also had his pylon there anyway (for shield battery lol :D ). And he needs ONE cannon only in case bisu continues with his push. And even if you say that it`s 800 minerals,then count how many did Bisu spend + he had like 10 probes less than Wooki. So..I`m like 100% sure that with forge the game would become pretty much standard,even game. Oh no, i was not saying that he lost an extra 800. I meant it that he had to spend 800 by that time, all the while had no mining done (Nexus takes forever to warp in T_T), so he probably wouldn't have had the spare money (does he even have money for Forge + Pylon + Cannon? Took a while for his nat's Pylon to go up right?). Bisu's eco defnly took a hit from his early probe out, but i would imagine that his economic loss would have been much less severe than that of Wooki. Though i believe that it is merely our difference in estimating the variables
I thought expanding in response to getting rushed was a brilliant response, but the decision not to make a forge/cannon to halt the leapfrogging cannons was the mistake.
Remember, Bisu had no kind of attacking units at all .. leave a Zealot at Bisu's natural, and Bisu would have no way to expand, while Wooki has twice the probe production capability. Once Wookie gets out like 3, or even 2 Dragooons, he could take out the cannons in his main and resume having a full 2-base economy, being advantaged in tech and econ.
The verdict? Bisu's cannon rush is easy as hell to block, once you think about the proper counter. As long as the cannons do not control your ramp area, you are fine, so you should only scout up to a 1/4th-1/3rd of that back ridge.
and Wooki definitely had the money to make a pylon/forge/cannon, its not like he wasn't mining at all lol
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On January 08 2012 07:34 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 07:25 sviatoslavrichter wrote:On January 08 2012 07:18 ffreakk wrote:On January 08 2012 07:09 sviatoslavrichter wrote:On January 08 2012 06:35 Kiett wrote:On January 08 2012 06:17 George_the_man wrote:
im cool , im just wondering what is the best tactic to protect vs that kind of cheese , cause canon rush in PvP on that maps works so good, like Wooki looked for for cheese but he didnt go low enough to see pylon , wasnt even close , and even if he did it would take so much time for probes to climb up on that hill that 1st cannon would prolly be warped anyway..? He should have scouted it, and then built his own forge. I feel bad for Wooki, but meh, you learn something every time you get cheesed so badly. If Bisu didnt do it this time, soneone would have eventually. The more you get cheesed, the more you learn to scout more carefully and have better crisis management. Rofl, fans like you are hilarious. If Bisu had gotten scouted you would have been whining about how disappointing of a game it was and how much Wooki is such an inferior player he has to cheese Bisu. But when Bisu cheeses you talk about how it's a good learning experience for Wooki? Seriously get over yourself. It's a game, cheese happens. If anything just be glad Bisu is finally learning from Flash, the best player to ever touch SC. If there's any reason i ll ever hate Flash, it's guys like this. Holy shit, If anything just be glad Bisu is finally learning from Flash, the best player to ever touch SC. ? It's almost as if BoXeR didn't exist, and Flash has a patent on cheesing every1 else is copying him. Seriously get over yourselves. is best reserved for you. And another silly thing is your "If -yada yada yada-, you guys would have acted moronically like we did too (paraphrased)". The only ones whining are you and some others who sport a Rolster icon. You are spoiling the name of people like Blind, or even TwoToneTerran who while being biased, is not an idiot. Bro, no one is whining in this thread. All I see are some SKT fanboys gloating about Bisu cheesing a rookie, the same SKT fanboys who whined incessantly about Flash being a "cheesy fucking noob" (to quote Kiante). Hahahaha that cracked me up for real, that bit about whining. I had a (slightly) hard time deciding between quoting a few pages full of Sawamura's posts, quoting your posts, or just save myself the trouble and write a Lol message like this one. @George_the_man Forgot to reply you earlier. Anyway it's part of the metagame. If Wookie didn't want to detour his scouting probe in fear of getting ramp-blocked, he could have sent a 2nd probe there to check, then come back to mine. Or he can take the risk of Cannon Rush. Progamers play upwards of 50 games a day or something, so im sure Wooki's had MANY PvP on his designated map. He took a risk with his scouting pattern, and it didn't pay off for him. Bisu took lotsa risk too.. If his initial Probe had been found, he would have been screwed, big time.
didnt see that
ok but so far there have been 5 PvPs on Chain Reaction and only Wooki did some sort of cliff scouting (bad one tho), noone else did it (and there were 2 PvPs after Jaehoon got cheesed in same way) so im thinking there has to be another way to deal with it even if u dont scout it until u check enemy base right? because im 100% sure all progamers tried out that build even before PL has started - but in my head there is just no good explanation for that thats why im really curious , anyway i dont want to continue that discussion even tho i find it interesting if its about to produce some pointless drama , its not about who got cheesed i was just thinking bout mechanics...
edit" just read the post above , yeah i think that makes sense , thanks
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How did this whole flaming mess come to be?
It's like SC2 has come to us.
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On January 08 2012 09:42 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 07:22 ffreakk wrote:On January 08 2012 07:17 Vuk_91 wrote:On January 08 2012 07:10 ffreakk wrote:On January 08 2012 06:49 Vuk_91 wrote:On January 08 2012 06:17 George_the_man wrote:
im cool , im just wondering what is the best tactic to protect vs that kind of cheese , cause canon rush in PvP on that maps works so good, like Wooki looked for for cheese but he didnt go low enough to see pylon , wasnt even close , and even if he did it would take so much time for probes to climb up on that hill that 1st cannon would prolly be warped anyway..? If that cheese was so good,then everyone would use it. And if Wooki built a forge as soon as he saw that first cannon...He would have easily defended his natural (with only one cannon). Off topic, but im rather curious what follow-up Bisu had if that had happened.. Im pretty sure as Pros, they have follow-up for most imaginable situations after the opening, and just won't go "oh fuck" should Wookie decided to have enough money to build a Forge. And yea, im pretty sure even if Wookie built a forge he would have been MEGA behind regardless. 400 + 100 + 150 + 150 (Nexus + Pylon + Forge + Canoon) = 800, and an Eternity of no mining. That's if he has the money in the first place. If he had placed down a Forge, Bisu would have simply not leap-frogging cannon but tech/eco up at home and roll him a few minutes later. @ George_the_man I think it should have been common knowledge by now that if u didn't manage to scout a cheese, you are pretty much screwed. 3-Gate-Goons and couldn't scout his DT-first? Dead. CC-first and didn't scout his Proxy Rax? Dead. PvP and didn't scout Cannon Rush? Well expect the same. It really isn't hard to walk your probie down the ledge another 2-3 seconds and check for any shenanigans. Not to mention you can block the ramp and prevent their probe from going down if you scouted it late (~time Forge completes). It really isn`t 400+100+150+150=800. It`s more like 150 (forge)=150. He built his nexus anyway so you should not count that. He also had his pylon there anyway (for shield battery lol :D ). And he needs ONE cannon only in case bisu continues with his push. And even if you say that it`s 800 minerals,then count how many did Bisu spend + he had like 10 probes less than Wooki. So..I`m like 100% sure that with forge the game would become pretty much standard,even game. Oh no, i was not saying that he lost an extra 800. I meant it that he had to spend 800 by that time, all the while had no mining done (Nexus takes forever to warp in T_T), so he probably wouldn't have had the spare money (does he even have money for Forge + Pylon + Cannon? Took a while for his nat's Pylon to go up right?). Bisu's eco defnly took a hit from his early probe out, but i would imagine that his economic loss would have been much less severe than that of Wooki. Though i believe that it is merely our difference in estimating the variables I thought expanding in response to getting rushed was a brilliant response, but the decision not to make a forge/cannon to halt the leapfrogging cannons was the mistake. Remember, Bisu had no kind of attacking units at all .. leave a Zealot at Bisu's natural, and Bisu would have no way to expand, while Wooki has twice the probe production capability. Once Wookie gets out like 3, or even 2 Dragooons, he could take out the cannons in his main and resume having a full 2-base economy, being advantaged in tech and econ. The verdict? Bisu's cannon rush is easy as hell to block, once you think about the proper counter. As long as the cannons do not control your ramp area, you are fine, so you should only scout up to a 1/4th-1/3rd of that back ridge. and Wooki definitely had the money to make a pylon/forge/cannon, its not like he wasn't mining at all lol
Hmm, sounds fair.
But if he had Forge/Cannon (Bisu's probe constantly scouting out Wooki's nat area), Bisu would likely give up the cannon aggression altogether, and instead build a Gate and tech up normally. "Fighting units" will come out in no time. It's true i can't verify it without actually doing it, but bottom line is, i believe the build that he used should have been heavily tested out in SKT training house. If the counter was so simple, it likely would have been found out already, and either a follow-up would have been devised, or Bisu wouldn't have used the build at all. I don't think a Cheese that can be easily countered despite being unscouted will be used at all in Pro games.
@Sawamura
No kidding, and if the other guy scout your initial probe it's almost auto loss... And that's not risky? Note too that had he (Wooki) detoured his scouting probe behind the cliff, or sent another one there to check, he would have scouted the Cannon Rush (and likely win outright, as a result). The problem, as you put it, mainly is the fact that Wooki seemed to think "No way im getting cheesed tonight!" and took the risk of not scouting, base on that assumption.
Also, where do you put the cannons other than behind the cliff near the Mineral Line when u Cannon Rush? >.< Wooki basically didn't expect the build at all, was surprised, and lost as a result.. It is pretty normal, really. (The same way soO didn't expect Flash's "7 units attack".)
PS: Someone (banned) was really pissed, it seems :3
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WTF people?
Cheese is a cheese. Nothing less and nothing more. Get over it.
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EPT
