EPT[MSL] Ro16 Day 3 - Page 41
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Kiante
Australia7069 Posts
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Renkaoru
390 Posts
On January 13 2011 20:22 baubo wrote: He couldn't have failed. He was in Bisu's base the whole time and knew full well Bisu didn't have his gateways up. This was purely on Bisu for not playing safe while playing blind, when his opponent wasn't. This post is oozing with truth. There was no way Stork could have failed in that attack, and he attacked with the pure intention of finishing the game right there. Only Bisu is to blame for choosing a non-standard build against a cerebral opponent such as Stork. | ||
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Soulforged
Latvia936 Posts
These thing even out. Goon/reaver army would've been more effective; with only 2HTs the reavers'd stay alive and deal damage. For that fight, even if Bisu had no robo/obs, he'd barely defend. Leaving aside the fact that Bisu made a shuttle and started +1 and range and stork had obs seeing it all... There are some possible scenarios. 1)Bisu gets no robo but up to 4gate as well. His army is strong and he'd defend, but he can't really attack without obs. If Stork is catching up on tech(which he pretty much has to), he'd get DTs to defend the counter and it'd be even game. 2)Bisu gets robo, and later 3rd/4th game. It's hard to defend for Bisu, Stork has a window for dealing damage with more cost-effective force (simply due to having more ranged stuff). Then, after the fight, Bisu'd have more tech; but same/less army(if you count travel time to Stork's base). With later and less gateways, during the time that Bisu is adding gates, getting an army, and traveling to Stork's nat, Stork can get HT/storm for himself as well. All-in would be a 6 or 7 gate goon/reaver push with severe probe cut. Stork didn't cut any probes at all. Okaaay, maybe a few. Not much. He went 2gate -> shuttle -> 3gate -> reaver -> 4gate -> reaver, or something along these lines. It's easy to support it from 2base without cutting probes. | ||
AltaiR_
Korea (South)922 Posts
On January 13 2011 20:24 Holgerius wrote: Indeed! XD That decision just blows my mind. So bad. he was just trying to secure an advantage, which is fine, just shouldve sent obs first to scout out stork's build that bisu doesnt know at all. | ||
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xxpack09
United States2160 Posts
On January 13 2011 20:27 Kiante wrote: Just because it was a good move doesn't mean it wasn't allin. If you cut probes for several minutes to make a big attack force. If something goes wrong in the attack (say your shuttle + reavers get sniped and your army gets stormed and you get held off, or bisu goes obs first and scouts it and cannons up), then you're basically screwed. your opponents economy eclipses yours by so much you cant get back in the game. So yes, stork was allin. it wasn't "cheesy" or anything. it was a good move, but it WAS allin Gee i didn't know maybe 30 seconds = several minutes Okay MAYBE a LITTLE longer. Once again, read the liquipedia on "Han-bang" | ||
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
And I'm not really agreeing with getting the robo instead of additional gates here, I mean obs give really good intel I guess, but whats the most Stork could've done? Bisu had two DTs out on the map so its not like he wouldn't have been able to scout a megafast third like Stats did in the PL Finals, and if not that its pretty much definitely going to be a heavy Reaver/Dragoon push. The fact that Bisu didn't even see that push coming was a huge oversight on his part, should've kept a DT by the bridge to see when he moved out so he could prepare accordingly | ||
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
On January 13 2011 20:21 ]343[ wrote: from the sound of it, it was all-in. not to say all-in is bad at all--why do people have this concept that all-in is bad??? stork saw that bisu was economically ahead but lacking in army, so he decided he had to attack soon before the economic advantage kicked in. to do that, he probably had to sacrifice at least a little of his own economy. if his bigger army somehow failed to do damage, he would've been dead. edit: ok apparently people have different concept of all-in. here by "dead" i mean he would have a serious disadvantage that could only be overcome by a huge blunder on bisu's part. this is certainly not the same as a double proxy gate or something... stork obviously still had some economy. edit again: ok, I guess I don't know what an all-in is -_-; Personally all-in has a negative cheesy connotion. I'd say a pvp all-in is something along the lines of 4gate goon off 1 base. funny how people are saying stork went all-in. Bisu kills probes and goes quick dt's. Stork calls him on it and goes robo tech. As a general rule robo tech hits harder than templar tech in midgame. Stork played a textbook pvp... it was bisu who deviated from the 'norm'. Stork had normal expo timing....good probe saturation... | ||
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SkelA
Macedonia13074 Posts
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weiliem
2071 Posts
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
On January 13 2011 20:22 xxpack09 wrote: Not true. This is a standard DT expand... if you don't build cannons you DIE straight up to enemy dark templar and any 2-3gate obs mass dragoon attacks. The issue was he went for a robo + obs + goon range + storm drop and didn't make any units. If he had exploded up to 4-5 gates he might have won the game Ohh I agree with that, you need the forge. And I think that's partly why it's a lot harder vs obs first. | ||
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HaFnium
United Kingdom1076 Posts
On January 13 2011 20:27 Kiante wrote: Just because it was a good move doesn't mean it wasn't allin. If you cut probes for several minutes to make a big attack force. If something goes wrong in the attack (say your shuttle + reavers get sniped and your army gets stormed and you get held off, or bisu goes obs first and scouts it and cannons up), then you're basically screwed. your opponents economy eclipses yours by so much you cant get back in the game. So yes, stork was allin. it wasn't "cheesy" or anything. it was a good move, but it WAS allin He didnt cut probes for that long I believe. Also he has obs in bisu's base and know the gateway count/unit count. He is far ahead in Goon Count, 4 gate vs 2. And with the 2 reavers + shuttle there is very very little chance that he will screw up that attack. He just found a weakness in Bisu's build and exploited it. | ||
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Emon_
3925 Posts
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structuralinertia
Australia1426 Posts
On January 13 2011 20:22 hellbound wrote: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Han-bang_Timing liquipedia FTW | ||
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
On January 13 2011 20:33 ArvickHero wrote: also if you guys were watching the rep, Bisu's gate count was 4 Added later if I'm not wrong ? | ||
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Soulforged
Latvia936 Posts
On January 13 2011 20:33 ArvickHero wrote: also if you guys were watching the rep, Bisu's gate count was 4 He got last 2 late. I think he got them after he started +1/range/robo - as in, they'd make 0 units in time of fight. Perhaps one wave. While Stork's made 2-3. Well, you've seen how not-close the fight was. Pretty sure having 2 HT at home would not save him either. | ||
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
it was later, but not by much. Bisu just needed his fuckin HT at his base, and a couple more cannons to compensate (since he had the econ lead anyways) It's still mindboggling to me how he could've even thought that sending 2 HT out to try to harass was a good idea. I'm wondering how exactly his practice games went when he thought this was a good idea. | ||
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Baddieko
Singapore855 Posts
On January 13 2011 20:29 ArvickHero wrote: Really, Bisu's decision to take those crucial first two high templar to harass was the stupidest thing I ever saw. And I'm not really agreeing with getting the robo instead of additional gates here, I mean obs give really good intel I guess, but whats the most Stork could've done? Bisu had two DTs out on the map so its not like he wouldn't have been able to scout a megafast third like Stats did in the PL Finals, and if not that its pretty much definitely going to be a heavy Reaver/Dragoon push. The fact that Bisu didn't even see that push coming was a huge oversight on his part, should've kept a DT by the bridge to see when he moved out so he could prepare accordingly maybe bisu thought he could have slip his dts into stork's base when he pushed. | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
On January 13 2011 20:35 Soulforged wrote: He got last 2 late. I think he got them after he started +1/range/robo - as in, they'd make 0 units in time of fight. Perhaps one wave. While Stork's made 2-3. Well, you've seen how not-close the fight was. Pretty sure having 2 HT at home would not save him either. Yeah, Stork looked like he had twice the number of goons Bisu had AND he had to travel cross-position to get there in the first place. Whatever Bisu's gateway count was, he certainly didn't make units like a 4-gateway toss. So the last 2 were likely very, very late. Calling Stork's build an all-in is just disingenuous. If Stork had no scouting and did the exact same build, then it would be an all-in. But with the scouting, it's just smart play. You can also compare their tech tree that wasn't shared Bisu: citadel, archives, storm, forge, +1, 2HTs, 2 cannons Stork: observatory, 2 Reavers, 2 obs Bisu's expansion was faster, but it wasn't so fast he could basically get all of that and still maintain a sizable army. | ||
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