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On November 10 2009 14:42 Warrior Madness wrote:Wow. What a night. Probably some of the best games I've seen in a long time. As much as I hate fantasy, his first game was just fucking art. Violet vs Hyuk was incredible. Violet outplayed him in every sense of the word. When the DAs become standard, hopefully zero will be comfortably anticipating it  . And that last game was just cherry on top. flash vs fantasy to top off a ridiculous set of games? Perrrfeeccttt. And flash totally raping fantasy? Even moorreee perfect! I'm really gonna miss SC when it's gone. It's nights like these!
well u said almost all i think right now... i just want to add some few words:
nal_ra will be proud, violet give us hope..
a new age its coming.
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That game was so one-sided, Hoejja shouldve just gg'ed eariler. Terrible Terrible Damage.
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I think we just saw the pvz metagame shift in the 4th set.
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I am soooooooo sad I missed my alarm to wake up for this match!!! 
This was at the very least the most entertaining Proleague match of the season, and definitely one of the best I've ever seen.
Game 1: Ridiculous, one-sided, jaw-dropping stuff from  fantasy. That move around 15:00 was just genius when he faked for the 4 o'clock and went straight for the 5 o'clock. It was so purely effective, it looked like he only stimmed a few marines to make  HoeJJa commit and then he stimmed the rest when he completed the fake. Also, his irradiates never, ever stopped. If the game went more than 10-15 seconds without an irradiate something felt wrong. The wraiths turned the game though, Hoejja just had no answer, Fantasy's timing was impeccable, and he kept zerg distracted so well with his dropships. He was also never threatened, the late game reinforcement with the tanks was perfectly timed. Hoejja didn't stand a chance. The nukes were some nice entertainment, their use made perfect sense too. There was no way zerg could attack. That was some great stuff.
Game 2:  Bisu played a lot like Stork from a few days ago which he won against Killer. I say this because of the two-gate and the same zealot/mineral-tricking timing. Outsider is interesting that it allows Protoss a scout in the zerg's base in this fashion a minute or so before the first Corsair pops out. Bisu's play wasn't the best, and he also made just the one cannon back home. Luxury has been good in the proleague, and his sorta late hydra bust was well executed. Still I gotta say Bisu lost that game more than anything.
Game 3: Well, I guess it boils down to BeSt having four bases so early. Flash just didn't harass effectively and that was his downfall, he played too safely. Best is known for his macro, and Flash incorrectly guessed for Shuttle/Reaver before Observers. Flash's army also seemed a little vulture-heavy at the end, and he strayed too far from home as well. Gotta hand it to BeSt though, beating Flash is no small feat.
Game 4: The moment everyone was waiting for... that's right, Dark Archons actually work in PvZ. I thought that Hyuk had spotted the DA with his scourge when he was chasing a corsair, but I guess not because he really should not have let that maelstrom happen. I don't think we'll see many ZvPs with DAs. Still though, Violet played a pretty nice game, showing good macro and troop movement. And IIRC, Violet pulled back his DTs when he realized he had enough ground force to hold off Hyuk to make that DA, which would obviously be pretty heads up. I was curious why Hyuk didn't go for any sort of pressure early despite his 9-pool (yes, 9-pool?). I also feel that Hyuk commited a bit strongly to tech. Going in to the match I was actually expecting Hyuk to take the match based on the recent ZvP play on HBR. It might just be that the maelstrom rattled our zerg player a little, almost like a mini-nuke.
Game 5: Guess what happens when Flash is a base up on you in a TvT? Yea, Fantasy's vultures didn't do squat and Flash's did. We had mirror builds for what seemed like forever, and in the end it looked like Flash had a better overall plan. I'll be honest I was a bit tired by the time I got to this game and I may have missed a few things; don't hurt me. Flash did commit to a fairly early armory, anticipating a drop that never came. Unfortunately for Fantasy he didn't know that and couldn't adjust accordingly.
I have to reiterate how great SKT1 v KT was, every match was worth watching. What was most exciting was the palpable drama in each game, the subtlety present in each players style, and the overall feel that this was a big time stage to play on. It reminded me of why I started watching Starcraft, and that shouting at the screen about a match that happened in South Korea at 4:30am today is totally worth it. We saw a lot of interesting SC: a lot of styles, some new stuff, nukes, and Bisu looking pretty damn average. I really hope this thread makes 100 pages.
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On November 10 2009 07:06 okum wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2009 04:50 okum wrote:
I can't wait for the interviews. I want to hear everything about the maelstrom from the man himself. I couldn't wait so I asked Google Translate. Show nested quote +
Norimsu tonghaetneunde properly.
▲ ▲ myutal production risks and did not know you were gonna keoseeoro reconnaissance. But keoseeoro report to determine the path of risk myutal Observer underneath the spray. Dark Archon fact that I was afraid I'd have caught a flying risk myutal office. So I ate him delicious.
Damn straight he ate those mutas delicious.
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On November 10 2009 16:18 sharkeyanti wrote:I am soooooooo sad I missed my alarm to wake up for this match!!! This was at the very least the most entertaining Proleague match of the season, and definitely one of the best I've ever seen. Game 1: Ridiculous, one-sided, jaw-dropping stuff from fantasy. That move around 15:00 was just genius when he faked for the 4 o'clock and went straight for the 5 o'clock. It was so purely effective, it looked like he only stimmed a few marines to make HoeJJa commit and then he stimmed the rest when he completed the fake. Also, his irradiates never, ever stopped. If the game went more than 10-15 seconds without an irradiate something felt wrong. The wraiths turned the game though, Hoejja just had no answer, Fantasy's timing was impeccable, and he kept zerg distracted so well with his dropships. He was also never threatened, the late game reinforcement with the tanks was perfectly timed. Hoejja didn't stand a chance. The nukes were some nice entertainment, their use made perfect sense too. There was no way zerg could attack. That was some great stuff. Game 2: Bisu played a lot like Stork from a few days ago which he won against Killer. I say this because of the two-gate and the same zealot/mineral-tricking timing. Outsider is interesting that it allows Protoss a scout in the zerg's base in this fashion a minute or so before the first Corsair pops out. Bisu's play wasn't the best, and he also made just the one cannon back home. Luxury has been good in the proleague, and his sorta late hydra bust was well executed. Still I gotta say Bisu lost that game more than anything. Game 3: Well, I guess it boils down to BeSt having four bases so early. Flash just didn't harass effectively and that was his downfall, he played too safely. Best is known for his macro, and Flash incorrectly guessed for Shuttle/Reaver before Observers. Flash's army also seemed a little vulture-heavy at the end, and he strayed too far from home as well. Gotta hand it to BeSt though, beating Flash is no small feat. Game 4: The moment everyone was waiting for... that's right, Dark Archons actually work in PvZ. I thought that Hyuk had spotted the DA with his scourge when he was chasing a corsair, but I guess not because he really should not have let that maelstrom happen. I don't think we'll see many ZvPs with DAs. Still though, Violet played a pretty nice game, showing good macro and troop movement. And IIRC, Violet pulled back his DTs when he realized he had enough ground force to hold off Hyuk to make that DA, which would obviously be pretty heads up. I was curious why Hyuk didn't go for any sort of pressure early despite his 9-pool (yes, 9-pool?). I also feel that Hyuk commited a bit strongly to tech. Going in to the match I was actually expecting Hyuk to take the match based on the recent ZvP play on HBR. It might just be that the maelstrom rattled our zerg player a little, almost like a mini-nuke. Game 5: Guess what happens when Flash is a base up on you in a TvT? Yea, Fantasy's vultures didn't do squat and Flash's did. We had mirror builds for what seemed like forever, and in the end it looked like Flash had a better overall plan. I'll be honest I was a bit tired by the time I got to this game and I may have missed a few things; don't hurt me. Flash did commit to a fairly early armory, anticipating a drop that never came. Unfortunately for Fantasy he didn't know that and couldn't adjust accordingly. I have to reiterate how great SKT1 v KT was, every match was worth watching. What was most exciting was the palpable drama in each game, the subtlety present in each players style, and the overall feel that this was a big time stage to play on. It reminded me of why I started watching Starcraft, and that shouting at the screen about a match that happened in South Korea at 4:30am today is totally worth it. We saw a lot of interesting SC: a lot of styles, some new stuff, nukes, and Bisu looking pretty damn average. I really hope this thread makes 100 pages.
Erm, nice that you're taking the time to write out such a detailed analysis, but it's missing some details.
Bisu lost game 2 because Lux had a very very well timed muta attack. Bisu got caught with his pants down in the main, was forced to spend gas building goons/corsairs instead of tech, lost a TON of minerals trying to spam cannons which meant less zealots, and then was woefully behind in army when Lux pushed in with the mass hydras. The reason he wasn't ready for the muta attack was he expanded aggressively getting that mineral only AND his nat, therefore he was a bit short on money for cannons as he had to protect 3 different bases and mass enough army to guard against a hydra break. Also, it wasn't a "sorta-late hydra bust." It was a tech switch that was timed after Lux did the damage he needed to do with his mutas. Bisu lost due to his greedy build order and Lux's well executed response to seeing Bisu go for 2 expos. It was a failure of strategy rather than Bisu's actual control in game.
Game 3: Refer to IdrA's comment. Flash sacrificed eco to try for a timing window with mass facs on 3 base. Best closed that window down and Flash was behind in eco/army for rest of game.
Game 4: It was all about Violet's timing of speed zeals to knock on Hyuk's door and delay the hydras pinging away at the forge. Then he got obs in time to stop the lurker siege and continued to use extremely good obs movement along the ridges to watch for the mutas. He saw the mutas from a mile away and that's why the DA was able to maelstrom so cleanly. It was definitely Violet's smart timing and observer usage that won this game.
Game 5: Flash went 3-fac on tank/gol and got a third gas expo and didn't waste minerals on a fuckton of vultures. Fantasy opted for control of the middle by going 5-fac mass vults and mines everywhere. Fantasy wanted the 6 o'clock and 5 o'clock so he could protect those bases while holding the mid and forcing Flash to defend his south base. Flash's much earlier gas meant he had way more tanks and could go for dropships much sooner than Fantasy could.
Fantasy was relying on his vultures/mines to control the map and Flash just flew right over that shit. Key mistakes for fantasy was going both 5-fac mass vults AND going for mineral expos first. There was just a nice window where Flash was way ahead in gas and he exploited it to the fullest by going for a lot of the gas heavy units. Fantasy's mass vults and mines were negated mostly by Flash harassing the 5 o'clock base then sweeping thru the mid with scans and dropship rape while Fantasy was preoccupied and spread out trying to hold that long stretch of bases in the south. Fantasy got read like a book.
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On November 10 2009 01:36 alffla wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2009 01:24 NovaTheFeared wrote: I think one reason it's T favored is that there is a small area that controls access to 4 bases and it's a short distance from there to the corresponding location on whatever side of the map your opponent's bases are. nice observation! its pretty intersting that + Show Spoiler [CJ MBC spoiler] + effort was sent out vs light, and also managed to win in that game!
now that you pointed this feature of the map out, it reminded me of how light could expand twice along the right edge during mid game.. i was like wtf how come he can do that O_O
+ Show Spoiler [CJ MBC] +I think it was pretty hard for him to do that, and I think it's pretty impractical to do so because:
1. Muta's can just go around mineral line hopping and you'll need to invest on defense, thus, putting you behind on tech and maybe behind on eco because the Zerg can expand all over the place knowing that you're chasing those mutas (e.g. Savior)
2. As seen in the game, Lurkers. Light expected muta's but he was attacked with Lurkers that threw him a bit off balanced because he had no tanks at that moment and he had to put down bunkers - which put his eco behind and everything else followed.
Light double expanded on the right side of the map thinking that it Effort was actually sacrificing economy on those lurks but in truth, effort started to put down hatcheries on expansions. After tanks came out, light knew he was behind and needed to expand and harass. He expanded, yes, but by that time, Effort was simply massing lurk lings to run around and kill expo attempts and flank the undersized terran army. Light's expansion got delayed which meant weaker eco which eventually lead to late dropship harass (an attempt was actually killed by scourges when the camera focused on his FP) and everything fell apart.
To be honest Effort's lukers felt like Saviors mutalisks.
edit: It would also be difficult to do that because there's another choke on top of what Nova encircled and that can be a problem because you might have to overextend an undersized army just to hold and wait for your three expansions to kick in your economy.
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Well Jaedong has ZvZ, Flash has TvT and Bisu has PvP that are strongest in SC. Maybe coach wanted to give FanTasY a chance cuz of his good game and Bisus' loss but Flash lost a game also and still gets an Ace Match.
All games were interesting and good to see Best breaking his loosing streak. Hope Canata wins his next game also.
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On November 10 2009 17:33 StorkHwaiting wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2009 16:18 sharkeyanti wrote:I am soooooooo sad I missed my alarm to wake up for this match!!! This was at the very least the most entertaining Proleague match of the season, and definitely one of the best I've ever seen. Game 1: Ridiculous, one-sided, jaw-dropping stuff from fantasy. That move around 15:00 was just genius when he faked for the 4 o'clock and went straight for the 5 o'clock. It was so purely effective, it looked like he only stimmed a few marines to make HoeJJa commit and then he stimmed the rest when he completed the fake. Also, his irradiates never, ever stopped. If the game went more than 10-15 seconds without an irradiate something felt wrong. The wraiths turned the game though, Hoejja just had no answer, Fantasy's timing was impeccable, and he kept zerg distracted so well with his dropships. He was also never threatened, the late game reinforcement with the tanks was perfectly timed. Hoejja didn't stand a chance. The nukes were some nice entertainment, their use made perfect sense too. There was no way zerg could attack. That was some great stuff. Game 2: Bisu played a lot like Stork from a few days ago which he won against Killer. I say this because of the two-gate and the same zealot/mineral-tricking timing. Outsider is interesting that it allows Protoss a scout in the zerg's base in this fashion a minute or so before the first Corsair pops out. Bisu's play wasn't the best, and he also made just the one cannon back home. Luxury has been good in the proleague, and his sorta late hydra bust was well executed. Still I gotta say Bisu lost that game more than anything. Game 3: Well, I guess it boils down to BeSt having four bases so early. Flash just didn't harass effectively and that was his downfall, he played too safely. Best is known for his macro, and Flash incorrectly guessed for Shuttle/Reaver before Observers. Flash's army also seemed a little vulture-heavy at the end, and he strayed too far from home as well. Gotta hand it to BeSt though, beating Flash is no small feat. Game 4: The moment everyone was waiting for... that's right, Dark Archons actually work in PvZ. I thought that Hyuk had spotted the DA with his scourge when he was chasing a corsair, but I guess not because he really should not have let that maelstrom happen. I don't think we'll see many ZvPs with DAs. Still though, Violet played a pretty nice game, showing good macro and troop movement. And IIRC, Violet pulled back his DTs when he realized he had enough ground force to hold off Hyuk to make that DA, which would obviously be pretty heads up. I was curious why Hyuk didn't go for any sort of pressure early despite his 9-pool (yes, 9-pool?). I also feel that Hyuk commited a bit strongly to tech. Going in to the match I was actually expecting Hyuk to take the match based on the recent ZvP play on HBR. It might just be that the maelstrom rattled our zerg player a little, almost like a mini-nuke. Game 5: Guess what happens when Flash is a base up on you in a TvT? Yea, Fantasy's vultures didn't do squat and Flash's did. We had mirror builds for what seemed like forever, and in the end it looked like Flash had a better overall plan. I'll be honest I was a bit tired by the time I got to this game and I may have missed a few things; don't hurt me. Flash did commit to a fairly early armory, anticipating a drop that never came. Unfortunately for Fantasy he didn't know that and couldn't adjust accordingly. I have to reiterate how great SKT1 v KT was, every match was worth watching. What was most exciting was the palpable drama in each game, the subtlety present in each players style, and the overall feel that this was a big time stage to play on. It reminded me of why I started watching Starcraft, and that shouting at the screen about a match that happened in South Korea at 4:30am today is totally worth it. We saw a lot of interesting SC: a lot of styles, some new stuff, nukes, and Bisu looking pretty damn average. I really hope this thread makes 100 pages. Erm, nice that you're taking the time to write out such a detailed analysis, but it's missing some details. Bisu lost game 2 because Lux had a very very well timed muta attack. Bisu got caught with his pants down in the main, was forced to spend gas building goons/corsairs instead of tech, lost a TON of minerals trying to spam cannons which meant less zealots, and then was woefully behind in army when Lux pushed in with the mass hydras. The reason he wasn't ready for the muta attack was he expanded aggressively getting that mineral only AND his nat, therefore he was a bit short on money for cannons as he had to protect 3 different bases and mass enough army to guard against a hydra break. Also, it wasn't a "sorta-late hydra bust." It was a tech switch that was timed after Lux did the damage he needed to do with his mutas. Bisu lost due to his greedy build order and Lux's well executed response to seeing Bisu go for 2 expos. It was a failure of strategy rather than Bisu's actual control in game. Game 3: Refer to IdrA's comment. Flash sacrificed eco to try for a timing window with mass facs on 3 base. Best closed that window down and Flash was behind in eco/army for rest of game. Game 4: It was all about Violet's timing of speed zeals to knock on Hyuk's door and delay the hydras pinging away at the forge. Then he got obs in time to stop the lurker siege and continued to use extremely good obs movement along the ridges to watch for the mutas. He saw the mutas from a mile away and that's why the DA was able to maelstrom so cleanly. It was definitely Violet's smart timing and observer usage that won this game. Game 5: Flash went 3-fac on tank/gol and got a third gas expo and didn't waste minerals on a fuckton of vultures. Fantasy opted for control of the middle by going 5-fac mass vults and mines everywhere. Fantasy wanted the 6 o'clock and 5 o'clock so he could protect those bases while holding the mid and forcing Flash to defend his south base. Flash's much earlier gas meant he had way more tanks and could go for dropships much sooner than Fantasy could. Fantasy was relying on his vultures/mines to control the map and Flash just flew right over that shit. Key mistakes for fantasy was going both 5-fac mass vults AND going for mineral expos first. There was just a nice window where Flash was way ahead in gas and he exploited it to the fullest by going for a lot of the gas heavy units. Fantasy's mass vults and mines were negated mostly by Flash harassing the 5 o'clock base then sweeping thru the mid with scans and dropship rape while Fantasy was preoccupied and spread out trying to hold that long stretch of bases in the south. Fantasy got read like a book.
Dig man, thanks for your notes. I didn't read any of the thread, so I was unaware of IdrA's comments (probably a good guy to refer to, ya know). I'm sad I didn't think better about Lux-Bisu, I was plain wrong.
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Missed the livestream and didn't read all of this massive 94 pages of LR thread (although I read those lengthy review above in page 93/94), watched the VODs and WOW so many excellent games.
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On November 09 2009 22:24 SilverSkyLark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2009 22:13 nayumi wrote:
Damn I hate Flash for robbing us off the 100 page of awesomeness ... Only if SKT had won the game, SKT fans would have made it 100 for sure ...
to KTR fans: IT'S YOUR DUTY NOW! DO IT! We still have the morning for the other half of the world to discuss.... but I don't know about discussing Flash's games though. Flash vs Fantasy looked like a low level game for me based on the LRs.
It's been 2 days. The other half of the world sucks imo ...
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damn that was a good match
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On November 11 2009 11:23 nayumi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2009 22:24 SilverSkyLark wrote:On November 09 2009 22:13 nayumi wrote:
Damn I hate Flash for robbing us off the 100 page of awesomeness ... Only if SKT had won the game, SKT fans would have made it 100 for sure ...
to KTR fans: IT'S YOUR DUTY NOW! DO IT! We still have the morning for the other half of the world to discuss.... but I don't know about discussing Flash's games though. Flash vs Fantasy looked like a low level game for me based on the LRs. It's been 2 days. The other half of the world sucks imo ...
Blame the games...hahaha..
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On November 08 2009 20:44 MrHoon wrote:
imo, flash and bisu will both drop their games
what a shitfest that would be
haha I knew this would happen
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flash won the ace match, though. thats good enough
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This was an amazing series! Games 1, 4, and 5 were especially awesome.
BTW: Is this the closest pre-match poll ever?
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On November 09 2009 21:41 Abyzou wrote:
I don't even understand why I like Fantasy.
Someone care to remind me?
As I recall he was supposed to be Boxer's prodigy. But I haven't seen him do something truly great in a long, long time, it feels like.
He's good at following order from Boxer & OOV, and somehow getting credits for their strategy. He falls apart when he goes against S-class that does something unorthodox. If Fantasy had Boxer's mind, he would be called Flash .
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just curious, is tempest on the ktf line up anymore?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img141.imageshack.us/i/moonglaive.png/)
![[image loading]](http://g.imageshack.us/img141/moonglaive.png/1/)
