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Netherlands6142 Posts
The Poll-topic is now upThe brave do not fear the grave
Remember FF7? You could go into the Golden Saucer and play a vast scala of minigames accompanied by music that was way too happy for it's own good. You'd grit your teeth at your dumb Chocobo or sprain your fingers trying to out-arm-wrestle some puppet. However, there was one mini-game that sparked our particular interest. The one feat that would grant you Omnislash: The Arena.
In the Arena you would face 8 monsters, with your goal to kill them all. No problem for the mighty Cloud you say? Guess again, after each victory a random handicap would be assigned to your fighter. By the end your sword and shield would be broken, your magic depleted and crippled and worn you would face your final opponent - often only to having to bite the dust after half an hour of plowing through the first seven.
Now - imagine this scenario applied to Starcraft. A high-level player takes on a bunch of newbies, but after each victory one more handicap is added to his tally. We've seen the results in TL Attack "No tank vs Terran? T_T". Should be fun ey? Therefore, in this Special Event bespeckled off-season, we present: TL Arena.
On Sunday the 20th of Septmber - 21:00 CET (that's 12:00 PST, 15:00 EST and 4:00 KST on Monday 21st]) our first contestant will enter the Arena:
+ Show Spoiler +Shauni!
That's right - this brave Swede will be the first to try his might in the first edition of this event. You will probably know him from his stream. How far can this B-level Protoss make it?
Every round he will pick an opponent and a map on which to play his next game. The map pool will be: + Show Spoiler [Mappool] +- Andromeda
- Neo Medusa 2.0
- God's Garden
- Neo Harmony
- Tau Cross
- Gaia
- Roadrunner – One of the PL Draft maps
- TL submission - (HBR, Nostalgia, Fantasy II, Battle Royale or Bloodbath)
After each victory, random selection determines the next handicap:
+ Show Spoiler [Handicaps] +Upgrades- No attack ups
- No def ups
- No Zealot Leg upgrade
- No Dragoon Range upgrade
- No Psionic Storm
- No Forge ups
Units- Max units -40
- No Zealots
- No Observers
- Worker sac – From the 6 minute mark, 12 workers must be sent into the enemy every 3 minutes.
- Gateway cap – The maximum number of Gateways is reduced to 6.
- Assimilator cap – The maximum number of Assimilators is reduced to 1.
Other- Give vision – Player has to share vision with his opponent.
- No rally points – Player cannot use rally points outside his main base.
- No sounds – Sound is turned off
- W-mode – Player plays in Window-mode
- TL submission x3
The whole event will be commented by our very own LeperKahn and broadcasted on Livestream at the given date.
Anyway, let's get to the main question, as well as main purpose, of this OP:
How can YOU participate?
There are a couple of ways for you, TLers, to join in in this event:
Players
This is mainly a call for players. Do you want to try your might against a B level player? Do you think with a bit of help you might be able to take him down? Would you be comforted that your loss would help the rest of your team? Are you a bad player? Then sign up! Post in this topic and include your ICC name, your rank and your race. Provide a link to your account which finished C or lower last season and had a + Show Spoiler [minimum amount of games of] +
C : 90
C- : 70
D+: 50
D/D-: 40
The first 8 to sign up are granted a face-off versus Shauni. Of course, don't stop signing up after 8 as lag or not-showing-up will require back-up players.
Map and Handicap submission
You may have noticed we are still one map short to complete our mappack. Let us know what map you'd like to be incorporated into the Arena. Also, we're willing to implement a TL-submitted handicap into the handicap pool. Don't be afraid to get creative but try to keep things realistic. A poll will select the most fun, annoying, creative one and incorporate it into the event.
When we get closer to zero hour we’ll put polls up and announce the stream and iCC-channel. So, once more, this event will only work if we get enough people to subscribe. Please don't be afraid to enroll and help bring this titan down! We're definitely looking forward to this. See you there!
- Pholon and LeperKahn
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Punkbroodling
C
Zerg
Heartbreak Ridge plz!
handicap: no corsairs OR you must build 1 scout by x minute mark.
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This is a good idea, but please balance the handicaps; they're ridiculous (are they going to be compounded?) Some of them sound fun, but others are just saying: contestant, so a super awesome rush build or else you're going to lose because of the handicap. It sounds super fun, though. 
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Handicaps :
No scouting with probe
No more than 3 bases
Must build two of the same tech building before building the respective unit [2 cores before Dragoons are allowed. Two temp achieves before templer are allowed]
No air units
Bad macro - After the 5 minute mark, the player must keep his minerals above 1000
Must have double the amount of max food than current food until 100/200
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Netherlands4511 Posts
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Netherlands6142 Posts
On September 16 2009 01:53 ret wrote:
ESC.ret
a- zerg
go
I'll keep you in mind for next edition 
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United States10774 Posts
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United States12607 Posts
This is an awesome idea. Looking forward to it!
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United States4796 Posts
This is awesome. GL Shauni.
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D+ Terran, TSL-Alur (profile http://www.iccup.com/starcraft/gamingprofile/TSL-Alur.html)
(53 games played)
Handicap ideas:
- Not allowed to take natural expansion.
- Wait X seconds before starting to play.
- You may only build probes from the Nexus you start with.
- Link: All the buildings you build must be connected (touching one another), first pylon is built right by your first nexus and so on.
- Time trial: If you havent killed your opponent in X minutes you loose.
- Mass transfer: If you choose to transfer probes from one base to another, you must transfer them all.
- Hero unit: If a specific unit dies (first combat unit, first nexus, whatever) you loose.
- Lucky one: Shauni gets to choose which handicap he gets this time.
- Unlucky one: LeperKahn chooses the handicap Shauni gets this time.
- Shuffle: All handicaps are removed, and the same amount+1 new handicaps are added.
- Your opponents plays alongside an AI. (Glitching allowed)
- You cannot warp in buildings in your main.
- +1: Increases the "power" of one of the handicaps you already have. Example: The maximum number of Gateways is reduced to
6 4!
- Audio bugging: (Requires that Shauni is on vent with Leperkahn) Shauni has to answer questions, and do what he is told (unit sounds etc.)
- Let it be: You cannot enter your opponents half of the map until you're atleast at X population.
- Everytime you have a pair of dark/high templars you must merge them into Dark Archons/Archons.
Also, by TL submissions do you want a map made by a TL member or just a pro-map chosen by TL?
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
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lmao that funny as shit, but i think the worker sac thing is a littil too harsh. 12 probes every 3 min? thats alot of probes lol
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Netherlands6142 Posts
On September 16 2009 03:03 Alur wrote:D+ Terran, TSL-Alur (profile http://www.iccup.com/starcraft/gamingprofile/TSL-Alur.html)(53 games played) Handicap ideas: - Not allowed to take natural expansion.
- Wait X seconds before starting to play.
- You may only build probes from the Nexus you start with.
- Link: All the buildings you build must be connected (touching one another), first pylon is built right by your first nexus and so on.
- Time trial: If you havent killed your opponent in X minutes you loose.
- Mass transfer: If you choose to transfer probes from one base to another, you must transfer them all.
- Hero unit: If a specific unit dies (first combat unit, first nexus, whatever) you loose.
- Lucky one: Shauni gets to choose which handicap he gets this time.
- Unlucky one: LeperKahn chooses the handicap Shauni gets this time.
- Shuffle: All handicaps are removed, and the same amount+1 new handicaps are added.
- Your opponents plays alongside an AI. (Glitching allowed)
- You cannot warp in buildings in your main.
- +1: Increases the "power" of one of the handicaps you already have. Example: The maximum number of Gateways is reduced to
6 4!
- Audio bugging: (Requires that Shauni is on vent with Leperkahn) Shauni has to answer questions, and do what he is told (unit sounds etc.)
- Let it be: You cannot enter your opponents half of the map until you're atleast at X population.
- Everytime you have a pair of dark/high templars you must merge them into Dark Archons/Archons.
Also, by TL submissions do you want a map made by a TL member or just a pro-map chosen by TL?
Any map. If you wanna see a game on one of Kona's maps by all means vote it in. We'll have a poll for the final decision. Also, nice job on those handicaps n_n
edit: Oh you beat me once... will be looking forawrd to seeing you get stomped by Shauni >:3
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Scratch the no zealot rule
4pool auto wins
Scratch the no observer rule
Impossible to fight lurkers and DTs
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Katowice25012 Posts
This is a sweet idea, looks very entertaining
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Netherlands6142 Posts
On September 16 2009 03:18 frogmelter wrote:
Scratch the no observer rule
Impossible to fight lurkers and DTs
Pssh, he's allowed to MC an Ovie
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On September 16 2009 03:15 Pholon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2009 03:03 Alur wrote:D+ Terran, TSL-Alur (profile http://www.iccup.com/starcraft/gamingprofile/TSL-Alur.html)(53 games played) Handicap ideas: - Not allowed to take natural expansion.
- Wait X seconds before starting to play.
- You may only build probes from the Nexus you start with.
- Link: All the buildings you build must be connected (touching one another), first pylon is built right by your first nexus and so on.
- Time trial: If you havent killed your opponent in X minutes you loose.
- Mass transfer: If you choose to transfer probes from one base to another, you must transfer them all.
- Hero unit: If a specific unit dies (first combat unit, first nexus, whatever) you loose.
- Lucky one: Shauni gets to choose which handicap he gets this time.
- Unlucky one: LeperKahn chooses the handicap Shauni gets this time.
- Shuffle: All handicaps are removed, and the same amount+1 new handicaps are added.
- Your opponents plays alongside an AI. (Glitching allowed)
- You cannot warp in buildings in your main.
- +1: Increases the "power" of one of the handicaps you already have. Example: The maximum number of Gateways is reduced to
6 4!
- Audio bugging: (Requires that Shauni is on vent with Leperkahn) Shauni has to answer questions, and do what he is told (unit sounds etc.)
- Let it be: You cannot enter your opponents half of the map until you're atleast at X population.
- Everytime you have a pair of dark/high templars you must merge them into Dark Archons/Archons.
Also, by TL submissions do you want a map made by a TL member or just a pro-map chosen by TL? Any map. If you wanna see a game on one of Kona's maps by all means vote it in. We'll have a poll for the final decision. Also, nice job on those handicaps n_n edit: Oh you beat me once... will be looking forawrd to seeing you get stomped by Shauni >:3
You're going to make me play him first arent you?
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Looking forward to watching 
I'm too bad to be the player, but too high rank to be the noob.
Event sucks for me : [
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On September 16 2009 03:25 Pholon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2009 03:18 frogmelter wrote:
Scratch the no observer rule
Impossible to fight lurkers and DTs Pssh, he's allowed to MC an Ovie
Obviously he needs to bring a probe with him to setup cannons for detection.
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On September 16 2009 03:32 DrywMz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2009 03:25 Pholon wrote:On September 16 2009 03:18 frogmelter wrote:
Scratch the no observer rule
Impossible to fight lurkers and DTs Pssh, he's allowed to MC an Ovie Obviously he needs to bring a probe with him to setup cannons for detection.
Nope
He is going to splash trick every cloaked unit to death 
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What a great idea! I don't want to play though. Noone wants to see a 55 apm D protoss embarass himself.
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Netherlands4690 Posts
I'm a 2v2 player but I'd like to participate... I'm around d+/c-, I play 'random' or zerg if it is a must to pick a race.
Peeano is my iccup name...
I'll edit my post later (since I really have to go right now) with alll the needed links/info. If I don't have to bother editing, please let me know.
Edit:
ID: Peeano
http://www.iccup.com/starcraft/gamingprofile/Peeano.html
Race: Z
Rank 1v1: D
I only have a total of 33 1v1's played
Map: Nostalgia
Handicap: Not able to fight/attack with peons
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
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Nooooooooo! I have too few games. ;(
Anyway, best of luck to the contestants. I love the idea behind this and am looking forward to seeing how the participants fare.
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I love this idea!
No attack/def ups are a negligible handicap against like D/D+ players though.
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On September 16 2009 04:05 TheAntZ wrote:
I love this idea!
No attack/def ups are a negligible handicap against like D/D+ players though.
Having handicaps that arent all equally powerful makes it more exciting.
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United States7166 Posts
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Netherlands6142 Posts
Post your Z account please
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]-[eRo D Zerg
Handicap: cannot make air units
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On September 16 2009 04:56 Kenpachi wrote:
]-[eRo D Zerg
Handicap: cannot make air units
frogmelter said that on page 1
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Strayline D+ Zerg.
http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/strayline.html
I technically finished C- last season but I've never actually beaten anyone at that rank. I can beat D+ just reliably enough to get 100 points into C- every once in a while. Trust me I'm D+ lol
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l10f
United States3241 Posts
I didn't play enough games T____T
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Oh god I need to play more games then... I played like a combined 20 games at D level >.>
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FF7 is the game to play. It is even better than Starcraft.
+ Show Spoiler +And omnishlash was awesome, but it was even more funny to juse use defence on Sepiroth in the final battle and then u counter and kills him by doing 800 or so dmg xD
And omnishlash with mime materia, lol
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pripple
Finland1714 Posts
Nice idea! some of the handicaps are a bit harsh. t_t
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Can I commentate with you lep? D:
(PS - commentating alone on bad games is hard
it's hard even not alone)
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Netherlands4690 Posts
Edited my post on page 2.
Maybe my handicap idea could be useful one?
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Russian Federation5 Posts
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I just brainstormed some handicaps. Some are a bit complex, but I feel that most are intuitive and their effects more subtle than obvious, and that the extremely high element of chance to most will add to the suspense. I recommend auto-rollers to determine the things meant to be randomly determined. I would rather handicaps be in the vein of these than the really typical, no "goon range" type ones, although those have a place too. I suggest permitting a player one veto on a handicap, causing it to be randomly determined again.
I feel like there is a pretty good variance on the difficulty these would add.
No units with energy-
No HTs / Dark Archons/ Sairs/ Arbiters or shield batteries. HT are still allowed but only if they are merged into archons.
I like this but it's complex :
Traitors in the midst -
Player plays with shared vision on from beginning of the game. However, if they kill one of their own units of a randomly determined specific type, vision is unshared. (Could be anything from a probe to a zealot to a carrier/arbiter, and the unit must be killed by their own forces). The unit specified does not change from one game to another (so once they discover what it is, they can merely kill one every game).
I think this is a better way to handle the no obs :
Scouts-
Player has to build a scout for each observer they wish to make. This is the only way that unit's name makes sense anyways.
Some random ones :
Shuffle-
One spell is randomly disabled, the spell disabled changes every game. (So it could be mind control or hallucinate, OR it could be psi storm in pvz).
Fewer workers -
Player must kill one of their initial 4 mining units with the other 3 probes. (This is a pretty frequent handicap that coaches use on their pros, from what I understand).
Exponential chains -
No two abilities of the same type can be used in a row - so if they wish to use psi storm, they must use another ability (hallucinate, etc.) in between. Building scarabs/interceptors doesn't count as an ability, however merge archons does, as does recharge shields.
Stranded -
Player must play on mercury vs zerg. (A T player must play on Neo Requiem or Katrina vs P. Z players can figure out a really imba map for tvz).
Predetermined Build -
Player's build up to 15-20 supply will be chosen by TL participants. It must be a real build order, and will supplant any early game handicaps (so they will not for example have to sacrifice a worker at the start if they have drawn that). This handicap is temporary, only lasting one game. However, builds from the wrong matchup are permitted (so fast goon range vs Z is fine). Their opponent will not be informed of the build. The player may cancel actions they have taken during this phase after they reach 15 supply. Builds such as 7 gate are fine, however those will probably disadvantage their opponent.
Non sequential distance -
Player can not build bases sequentially, and must always leave one base's space between their mining bases. (So they can expand to their natural after their main has run dry). This is not to be enforced hyper critically, once the base has started to lose mining patches it is fine to expand.
Double edged sword -
Both players play in team melee style, and the High rank player is not allowed to communicate with his partner.
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this is an awesome idea, i'm glad that TL is putting together things to keep me entertained during the offseason
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Oh also, a suggestion for a handicap's name :
Play like Stork : No dragoon range.
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Handicap suggestions/ideas:
- no keyboard, or at least no hotkeys (since that's easy to check afterwards)
- time limit for victory
- has to kill off 1 or 2 own workers at start
- cannot scout opponent's bases
- must use specific spells (like... must attack with hallucinated units, must use d-webs, mind-control for protoss, must nuke or lockdown with terran, must spawn broodling with zerg, etc.)
- must have a kill on a worker
- must have a unit with more then x kills
- must keep chatting with an obs (like, random trivia or math questions in the meantime?)
sounds like fun, looking forward to "challenging" some non protoss pro once
edit: reading the thread, most of these have been already suggested:-p
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Here's my last handicap idea, I was somewhat reluctant about posting it, because it's clearly very abusable, but every set of handicaps needs these :
This one is probably overpoweringly bad, but every set of handicaps needs one :
Nony's doom : Player must attempt to utilize a strategy either from an [I] thread or one suggested within the strategy forum regarding the matchup. A quick review of the last few days shows ones as benign as two forge timing attacks, or as egregious as corsairs in pvt. The threads/strategies will be chosen by TL members, however the player may be offered a choice between two different strategies. (This is to prevent them from being forced to do things that are auto-loss)
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Trozz on ICCup.
I'm a C- player.
I mostly use Zerg.
http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/Trozz.html
As for handicaps,
I have some neat ideas.
I'll list a couple:
* Must manner pylon self and leave it there all game
* Must build a Scout before Robotics/Citadel
* Must build a Dark Archon before High Templar
* Must research shield upgrade before any other +1 upgrade
* NR20 (no attacking for 20 minutes)
* No attacking without Disruption Web
* No scouting with probes
* Must build 2 Forges immediately after building the first one
* Must have probes in main army (minimum 2 per minute passed)
* Pylons cannot be warped near expos until the Nexus is complete
* Must truthfully answer the first 3 questions an opponent asks (relating to the game)
* First Robotics must always be building shuttles (a second Robo is needed for obs/reavers)
* First Gateway must always be pumping out zealots
* First Starport must always be pumping out corsairs/scouts
* Must play like the Rock (1 base reaver into carriers)
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Osaka27125 Posts
Awesome idea, awesome event. Added to the calender so nobody has an excuse to miss it.
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Netherlands6142 Posts
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This will be fun to watch, especially with some of the handicaps being mega awesome.
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United States24579 Posts
Very cool but I kinda wish you had done the singups differently. Looking forward to this. Make sure to make it as close to the ff7 ambiance as you can XD
edit: handicap suggestion: lastshadow style altered map (edit unit hp, costs, etc... can do a ton with this)
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Someone should make a UMS of each map that randomly triggers one of the handicaps. This would also give variety such as cost to make buildings and units.
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can't wait for this to happen
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Wow, great idea. I'll definitely be watching this, it has so much potential to turn out awesome :D
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Wow, haha, very creative event.
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God id like to do this but the only time ive had higher than 70 games(RECORDED) was from 2 seasons ago. T_T
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After each victory you need to play the FF7 battle victory music. That would be l33t.
Great Idea, I'd be willing to play but it looks like too many people signed up so far. Anyways, here's my account if you have room for a D zerg.
http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/Athos[rA].html
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On September 16 2009 01:56 Pholon wrote:I'll keep you in mind for next edition
This just got awesome.
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What a cool idea. Shauni's such a good choice too. He would totally rape me even with the handicap but I'll signup! http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/Polarbulf.html C- Zerg last season. I'd prefer to play as Durak though if I'm chosen. I can prove Polarbulf is mine if that's a problem.
Ret for round 2 would also be epic.
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On September 16 2009 07:05 Trozz wrote:[...] http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/Trozz.html[...] * Must manner pylon self and leave it there all game * Must build a Scout before Robotics/Citadel * Must build a Dark Archon before High Templar * Must research shield upgrade before any other +1 upgrade * NR20 (no attacking for 20 minutes) * No attacking without Disruption Web * No scouting with probes * Must build 2 Forges immediately after building the first one * Must have probes in main army (minimum 2 per minute passed) * Pylons cannot be warped near expos until the Nexus is complete * Must truthfully answer the first 3 questions an opponent asks (relating to the game) * First Robotics must always be building shuttles (a second Robo is needed for obs/reavers) * First Gateway must always be pumping out zealots * First Starport must always be pumping out corsairs/scouts * Must play like the Rock (1 base reaver into carriers)
omg :X
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On September 16 2009 07:05 Trozz wrote:
As for handicaps,
I have some neat ideas.
I'll list a couple:
* Must manner pylon self and leave it there all game
* Must build a Scout before Robotics/Citadel
* Must build a Dark Archon before High Templar
* Must research shield upgrade before any other +1 upgrade
* NR20 (no attacking for 20 minutes)
* No attacking without Disruption Web
* No scouting with probes
* Must build 2 Forges immediately after building the first one
* Must have probes in main army (minimum 2 per minute passed)
* Pylons cannot be warped near expos until the Nexus is complete
* Must truthfully answer the first 3 questions an opponent asks (relating to the game)
* First Robotics must always be building shuttles (a second Robo is needed for obs/reavers)
* First Gateway must always be pumping out zealots
* First Starport must always be pumping out corsairs/scouts
* Must play like the Rock (1 base reaver into carriers)
noooooo...
this is the wrong way to do it! you guys should play this in UMS and add lots of weird triggers and stuff. for example:
- 1500 HP temple spawns in nat
- Opponent gets a dozen free zerglings every couple minutes
- Dragoons become even dumber (get randomly teleported when brought to middle)
- Pandabears in base block building placements
- Hostile sunkens camp the bridge on destinaion
- etc. . .
this could go on forever.
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What an amazing idea Pholon! (wow that video brings back some memories.)
So what does Omnislash equate to in Starcraft terms? Will it affect Shauni's Limit Break in any way?
Actually, I remember playing FF7 once on a speedrun and I didn't get omnislash, but when fighting Sephiroth at the end, I could use it. :O Does this mean that, even if he didn't compete in this TL Arena and you put Shauni up against Jaedong (the final boss, as it were), that he would be able to unleash 8 consecutive, devastating attacks for the win?
More on topic - I like the ideas for some of these handicaps, particularly the no-scouting ones. How about these:
- Can only double-expand. No single expos.
- Can't use hotkeys.
- Every pylon must be built twice (ie. one next to the other, at the same time).
- Can only defend expos with canons.
- One of the initial probes must be sent to the enemy base to be sacrificed.
- Every unit production building must be built outside of the main base.
- Can only use Zealots and Dragoons for the first 15 mins.
- Must warn the opponent before attacking any base (a bit like calling a hit in Kendo).
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On September 16 2009 01:45 Saracen wrote:This is a good idea, but please balance the handicaps; they're ridiculous (are they going to be compounded?) Some of them sound fun, but others are just saying: contestant, so a super awesome rush build or else you're going to lose because of the handicap. It sounds super fun, though.
Some of them are pretty brutal, but I think you are underestimating how much better shauni is than the people he's going to be playing. Plus, half the fun of watching this event is going to be seeing how shauni works around the handicap.
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is awesome32269 Posts
I just want to say this is an awesome idea. Handicaps may work oddly at the begining but im sure that with time you guys can get some "balanced" handicaps that are really fun!
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i was thinking of some good handicaps for zergs:
-no less than 1 larva at each hatchery at any time (if a hatchery ever has 0 larva at it he must forfeit)
-never have 3 larva at a hatchery
-cant upgrade overlords at all vs P
-no lurkers or mutas vs T (maybe just 1 at a time)
-no consume
-can only make 1 hatchery
-no lings
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Still can't get excited about this, Pholon :/
However, some ideas :D
- Have set things they must build at a given food.
- They must keep up a conversation with an observer, answering any questions he or she asks.
- Can only use workers made from the nexus at that expansion to mine from that exp. (no maynard)
- Must take bases from close to the opponent/middle of the map before those closesnt to them.
- Must kill every critter on the map before they can expand.
- Can only kill enemy workers with their own workers. (I wanna see some drone drops :D)
- Must get all the upgrades for a unit (not inc. weapons/shield) before the unit can be built.
- Mouse only.
Also I didn't read any of these posts but if someone hasn't mentioned - maybe the opponent should not know what handicaps the opponent has - this would hopefully stop it from being proxy cheese every single game.
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On September 16 2009 12:37 Ideas wrote:
-never have 3 larva at a hatchery
I guess all zergs lose instantly since we start with 3 larvae
But seriously
Not 3 at a hat? Not even the dong has that kind of macro
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How about a custom map (made by some decent map makers, and maybe chosen by vote) with mass imba for the gosu? (Eg....Battle Royale, but the gosu cant play zerg, whereas the challenger can)
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man, I must have spent 20 plus hours at the golden saucer trying to get omnislash...
great Idea for a show match.
On September 16 2009 01:53 ret wrote:
ESC.ret
a- zerg
go
your next ret! gogogogo
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omg this is gonna be so much fun!
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This is gonna be so sick
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Netherlands6142 Posts
Nice to see so many subscriptions going :D
Also, people, pleeeease keep in mind that I'm not gonna program any UMS maps for this. With 16 handicaps there are like, and I'm no math genius here, 16^7 possible combinations and I'm not gonna program each combination onto 8 maps, the last of which won't even be known until just before the event.
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worker SAC?
that is truly deserving of a roflomgftw
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On September 16 2009 16:10 Pholon wrote:
Nice to see so many subscriptions going :D
Also, people, pleeeease keep in mind that I'm not gonna program any UMS maps for this. With 16 handicaps there are like, and I'm no math genius here, 16^7 possible combinations and I'm not gonna program each combination onto 8 maps, the last of which won't even be known until just before the event.
If I remember correctly it is more like 16!/(16-8)! = 518 918 400. Which is actually a shitload of maps.
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some of the handicaps need to be "balanced." some are ridiculously challenging while others aren't. needs moar consistancy. In particular:
no psi storm/goon range. perhaps no psi storm PvT or no goon range PvZ instead? no goon range in PvT or PvP would be really really hard. same with no psi storm PvZ and to a lesser degree PvP.
worker sac is also ridiculously difficult. perhaps lower it to 6. 12 workers is just too much.
gateway cap should be 8.
assimilator cap is deadly PvZ. 2 PvZ 1 PvP PvT instead?
window mode is pretty silly and gimmicky, id remove that from the pool
no zealots is interesting, but completely imba in PvP on a 2 player map, since proxy gateway would be pretty much isntant win. perhaps no zealots after the 3 minute mark instead?
edit:
i like these ones
On September 16 2009 12:50 iCCup.deL wrote:
[list][*]Have set things they must build at a given food.
[*]They must keep up a conversation with an observer, answering any questions he or she asks.
[*]Must take bases from close to the opponent/middle of the map before those closesnt to them.
Also I didn't read any of these posts but if someone hasn't mentioned - maybe the opponent should not know what handicaps the opponent has - this would hopefully stop it from being proxy cheese every single game.
and i agree that the opponent shouldnt know what handicaps shauni has - but that'd be very difficult to uhold considering that the livestream channel will be public. i suppose we'd just have to rely on people fighting honorably
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On September 16 2009 19:25 lazz wrote:some of the handicaps need to be "balanced." some are ridiculously challenging while others aren't. needs moar consistancy. In particular: no psi storm/goon range. perhaps no psi storm PvT or no goon range PvZ instead? no goon range in PvT or PvP would be really really hard. same with no psi storm PvZ and to a lesser degree PvP. worker sac is also ridiculously difficult. perhaps lower it to 6. 12 workers is just too much. gateway cap should be 8. assimilator cap is deadly PvZ. 2 PvZ 1 PvP PvT instead? window mode is pretty silly and gimmicky, id remove that from the pool no zealots is interesting, but completely imba in PvP on a 2 player map, since proxy gateway would be pretty much isntant win. perhaps no zealots after the 3 minute mark instead? edit: i like these ones Show nested quote +On September 16 2009 12:50 iCCup.deL wrote:
[list][*]Have set things they must build at a given food.
[*]They must keep up a conversation with an observer, answering any questions he or she asks.
[*]Must take bases from close to the opponent/middle of the map before those closesnt to them.
Also I didn't read any of these posts but if someone hasn't mentioned - maybe the opponent should not know what handicaps the opponent has - this would hopefully stop it from being proxy cheese every single game. and i agree that the opponent shouldnt know what handicaps shauni has - but that'd be very difficult to uhold considering that the livestream channel will be public. i suppose we'd just have to rely on people fighting honorably
I disagree. The POINT of these caps is to make him play in an uncomfortable position... you can play 1 base PvZ as a way higher level than your opponent and still win easily. Worker sac I agree on, but again, you can just go 2 base carrier/arb to get around the gateway cap. There are so many strategies, it's just that the handicaps remove a lot of your options.
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
so when are you guys going to release who plays vs Shauni?
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I agree that having the handicaps hidden from the opponents would definitely be the best way to go. I was also wondering how you might reward those who guess what handicap Shauni has in that game, or how that might further punish him (ie. an extra handicap in the next game).
But, since there is a large possibility of people finding out, from live-stream viewers, what the handicap is, then it might not be such a good idea.
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This is a great idea!
As far as suggestions I agree with hiding the handicaps from the opponent if possible, but after several opponents it might be difficult to keep on the DL. Nerf some of handicaps too, 12 workers, 1 gas, maybe -1 gas, so 2 bases, 1 gas, 3 bases, 2 gas etc.
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great idea! this sounds like fun to watch.
what happens if shauni loses? he plays the next opponent with the same handicap? it's over?
also, for a handicaps
-expo nexus cannot be on the closest spot
-no shuttle
-no goon range
-2 only on gas
-no scouting probe until X time
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i dont think shauni or any foreigner can win against a C player with all these handicaps
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On September 16 2009 12:51 frogmelter wrote:I guess all zergs lose instantly since we start with 3 larvae But seriously Not 3 at a hat? Not even the dong has that kind of macro
actually it wouldnt be THAT hard for a pro if they do a 2hatch build all-in sorta build or something. actually I'd say JD even has a good chance of playing a drawn-out game vs a much weaker player doing this, usually pros intentionally save up larva instead of not having the macro for it.
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On September 16 2009 16:10 Pholon wrote:
Nice to see so many subscriptions going :D
Also, people, pleeeease keep in mind that I'm not gonna program any UMS maps for this. With 16 handicaps there are like, and I'm no math genius here, 16^7 possible combinations and I'm not gonna program each combination onto 8 maps, the last of which won't even be known until just before the event.
I'm not saying it would be easy, but it's not an unreasonable amount of work to program a map with an "referee" player slot who is able to turn the handicaps on or off by moving a unit on or off a beacon. That way you'd only have to program one map, not every possible combination (which is 2^16). It would probably still be more work to make and to test than anyone would be willing to do for this, though.
Doing it for 8 different maps would be pretty unreasonable though.
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On September 17 2009 03:51 Gustav_Wind wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2009 16:10 Pholon wrote:
Nice to see so many subscriptions going :D
Also, people, pleeeease keep in mind that I'm not gonna program any UMS maps for this. With 16 handicaps there are like, and I'm no math genius here, 16^7 possible combinations and I'm not gonna program each combination onto 8 maps, the last of which won't even be known until just before the event. I'm not saying it would be easy, but it's not an unreasonable amount of work to program a map with an "referee" player slot who is able to turn the handicaps on or off by moving a unit on or off a beacon. That way you'd only have to program one map, not every possible combination (which is 2^16). It would probably still be more work to make and to test than anyone would be willing to do for this, though. Doing it for 8 different maps would be pretty unreasonable though.
I'd say that's pretty reasonable what Gustav's talking about. Of course this is not a necessity for the first TL Arena. But it would form a good foundation for an orderly event. Anyway, I am not experienced with map editors other than Blizzard's one. Would it be possible to either copy the triggers from one map to another with a certain editor, or copy the terrain to a map with fully functioning triggers? This would reduce the amount of work to primarily a single working map with triggers, one set for each handicap.
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these are some pretty ridiculous handicaps.
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leomon
Canada169 Posts
Some of these handicaps are just INSANE, while others are alot more fair
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Really cool idea, but I can see Shauni (or whoever the contestant happens to be in the following weeks) playing according to reflex and habit and forgetting the occasional restriction once they pile up.
Not only is the UMS concept pretty unfeasible in terms of sheer workload, some of those restrictions can't even be incorporated into triggers.
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-build one of every unit before you kill a unit mining
-build an additional nexus next to every expand you take :D
-no shuttles
-every unit used to attack a building must be invisible (mass arbiters :D)
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On September 17 2009 06:49 bumatlarge wrote:
-build one of every unit before you kill a unit mining
-build an additional nexus next to every expand you take :D
-no shuttles
-every unit used to attack a building must be invisible (mass arbiters :D)
sorry but that last one is just dumb, suicide recall into terrans base, arbiter dies there goes the game because you cant attack. also discourges all pressure and stuff of that effect.(i.e making the game exciting)
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NOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooooooo
this sounds like so much fun, I'd love to participate in it or at least watch it live..
unfortunately I'm on vacation in korea during that time :/
You people better record this!
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Regarding the super-insane handicaps, if you go by FF7 analogy, I believe there were some that were more or less death sentences too. It just might bring about some weird games where the superior player has to make things up as he goes along. Otherwise, what's the fun in having random handicaps?
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Windowed mode is a handicap?
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Shauni! I hope you win it all!
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this sounds sick
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Handicap: player must use mouse only
handicap: player must set all scroll speeds to lowest
Handicap: player must give opponent a head-start of 10 seconds.
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On September 17 2009 15:44 nttea wrote:
Handicap: player must use mouse only
handicap: player must set all scroll speeds to lowest
Handicap: player must give opponent a head-start of 10 seconds.
loool I love the mouse only one
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Just some handicaps i've thought of
Player is not allowed to use any hotkeys
Player is has to keep below X apm
Player cannot worker scout the entire game
Player cannot build a Templar Archives
Around every minute, opponent can ask player a Yes No question about the game and player has to respond truthfally
omnom goons: for every 3 dragoons that are made, 1 must be fed to the opposing player the entire game.
Player may only attack buildings using air units. exemption made for buildings that can attack ground units.
Player may not make cannons the entire game
Player may make a maximum of 4 different type of attacking units the entire game
Player is not allowed to take his natural expo for first 10 mins
Player cannot worker transfer for any reason.
Player must recite, through game chat,the entire lyrics to the song Bohemian Rhapsody by Queen before being allowed to split workers.
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just gone back a few pages and seen i've repeated//reworded alot already mentioned but if you notice any copies then consider them quoted for awesomeness.
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I already used to use my mouse scroll on lowest for a long time... now I use it near lowest D:
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to late to give his name ?
plasir
D- \ D : T player
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Will you guys be handling lubricants to the victims?
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On September 17 2009 16:01 XeliN wrote:
Player must recite, through game chat,the entire lyrics to the song Bohemian Rhapsody by Queen before being allowed to split workers.
LOL!
"Easy come, easy go / Little high, little... oh crap! Lings!!"
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Sick handicaps. It is an interesting idea, but we need to find race specific handicaps if we do anything that is not about economy. Also C level opponents are not to be underestimated. They will abuse the handicaps like hell and I think Shauni will not win a single game with any handicap listed under "Units". Having 8 levels of handicaps is also difficult to achieve, so the levels should be the players imo.
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On September 18 2009 01:32 50bani wrote:
Sick handicaps. It is an interesting idea, but we need to find race specific handicaps if we do anything that is not about economy. Also C level opponents are not to be underestimated. They will abuse the handicaps like hell and I think Shauni will not win a single game with any handicap listed under "Units". Having 8 levels of handicaps is also difficult to achieve, so the levels should be the players imo.
If the levels were only players this would just be the bashing arena, which would be no fun. I suppose you could use C range players in the start, and move down towards D and D- as the handicaps stack up though.
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Netherlands6142 Posts
Any more map suggestions?
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Korhal of Ceres, Dhalia of jungle, Neo Forbidden Zone
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On September 18 2009 02:07 Alur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2009 01:32 50bani wrote:
Sick handicaps. It is an interesting idea, but we need to find race specific handicaps if we do anything that is not about economy. Also C level opponents are not to be underestimated. They will abuse the handicaps like hell and I think Shauni will not win a single game with any handicap listed under "Units". Having 8 levels of handicaps is also difficult to achieve, so the levels should be the players imo. If the levels were only players this would just be the bashing arena, which would be no fun. I suppose you could use C range players in the start, and move down towards D and D- as the handicaps stack up though.
I think letting them pick like in the current system works best, as it adds the factor of ego into the equation - if they think they can beat a C player with 8 of those handicaps, all the better for them to try. If they play really cautiously and just pick D- players every time they'll be somewhat mocked for a while.
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handicaps....
.must destroy a gateway to move out with main army
.must long distance mine (just minerals) from main base (gas is normal tho)
.must get a tatoo of TL.net or lose by default
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Write TL with units on the map before being able to produce arbiters/carriers
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I like the original handicaps except worker sac because its harder to "judge". W-mode sounds bad since you can mess with the resolution anyway.
Anyway, kickass idea.
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This is the best idea ever. Well, maybe not quite, but I thoroughly approve.
A couple more handicap ideas (although so many have been mentioned already I'm probably duplicating):
Big Game Hunter: Must kill all critters before destroying any enemy buildings (aka Bob_the_Newt challenge?)
5-Year Plan: First non-worker unit built must be a scout (or for other races, valk or queen?)
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I want to advocate resources for Shauni:
1. Reject handicap - if he gets a handicap he thinks he can't handle, he has the option of shuffling for another...up to _ times
2. Spare life: if he loses, he loses a life, and he starts with _ lives and loses when it goes down to 0.
3. Thumbs-down on handicap: before the first game, he gets a chance to thumbs-down 2-3 of the handicaps in the lottery so that they will never come up. They can be replaced with other handicaps from the TL submissions that are prepared in advance, or simply removed.
4. Thumbs-down on map: choose 1 or 2 maps and have them removed from the map pool. Replace with maps prepared in advance or TL submissions prepared in advance.
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Will these videos be posted on youtube? I would really love to see them in case I can't catch it in person.
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Netherlands6142 Posts
On September 19 2009 12:41 EEEE1234 wrote:
I want to advocate resources for Shauni:
1. Reject handicap - if he gets a handicap he thinks he can't handle, he has the option of shuffling for another...up to _ times
2. Spare life: if he loses, he loses a life, and he starts with _ lives and loses when it goes down to 0.
3. Thumbs-down on handicap: before the first game, he gets a chance to thumbs-down 2-3 of the handicaps in the lottery so that they will never come up. They can be replaced with other handicaps from the TL submissions that are prepared in advance, or simply removed.
4. Thumbs-down on map: choose 1 or 2 maps and have them removed from the map pool. Replace with maps prepared in advance or TL submissions prepared in advance.
Why are you helping him D:
On September 19 2009 14:51 TwirlingFern wrote:
Will these videos be posted on youtube? I would really love to see them in case I can't catch it in person.
Yes we'll try to make it available to those who can't be there live.
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On September 19 2009 12:41 EEEE1234 wrote:
I want to advocate resources for Shauni:
1. Reject handicap - if he gets a handicap he thinks he can't handle, he has the option of shuffling for another...up to _ times
2. Spare life: if he loses, he loses a life, and he starts with _ lives and loses when it goes down to 0.
3. Thumbs-down on handicap: before the first game, he gets a chance to thumbs-down 2-3 of the handicaps in the lottery so that they will never come up. They can be replaced with other handicaps from the TL submissions that are prepared in advance, or simply removed.
4. Thumbs-down on map: choose 1 or 2 maps and have them removed from the map pool. Replace with maps prepared in advance or TL submissions prepared in advance.
Good call and seconded
As cool as some of these handicaps sound, some of them are just plain impossible to win with
Losing in the second round would be pretty lame [Imagine worker sac, and only one gas... how is anyone supposed to macro?]
Having such handicaps will force him to all in every game if he wants to have a chance at all, and games with cheese and cheese are not very entertaining
Lives are a good idea too. One loss and it is over? This is a pretty exciting event IMO. It would be lame if he just lost in the first round because of some impossible handicap. Cause I really don't see /any/ way to beat any race without observers. The zealot and goon ball will have to move super slowly for fear of mines while being melted by a fuckton of tanks, and lurkers are nearly invincible [only killable by two storms]. The protoss units will just have to tank all the damage and hope to destroy everything while getting hit by the lurkers. As for PvP, a few dark templers blocking the chokes to an expo basically secure it permanently, except for drops that can be taken care of with a few more DTs. A game without observers would be very cloaked unit central, and more like a UMS game than actual SC.
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poor shauni 
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will this event be streamed live?
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United States24579 Posts
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
Pholon if you need me I'm here
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Game 1. Shauni VS Never_Nal(T) on Andromeda
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chat screen disabled? why is the chat screen even there if its disabled.. waste of space :S
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I think Battle Royale would be fitting map.
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WTF. Zergsoul is protoss...
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hahah Leperkahns idea of similar maps is hilarious
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For the love please have the commentators make the volumes not so uneven.
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current handicaps
no storm
6 gateways
no sound (playing vs d terran with all three right now)
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shauni rapes terran with dts.
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its gg, and there're only 4 players left for shauni to curbstomp.
and the next handicap is...
NO OBSERVERS!
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looks like we won't see shauni raped by 2 hatch lurkers yet. another pvp is up.
handicaps:
no sound
no storm
no observers
maximum of 6 gateways
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the poor protoss victim fails to go dts and gets cannon bumfucked.
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I have a headache because of the difference in volume.
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once again shauni emerges triumphant from the D- masses. next up:
NO RALLY POINTS
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Please send a consolation prize Tissue like in the game. =)
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the challenger?
a stalwart TERRAN! on fantasy!
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On September 21 2009 05:41 tyreek wrote:
I have a headache because of the difference in volume.
Yeah, someone needs to tweak the volume on the various people talking on the stream. I didn't even realize there was more than one person there.
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shauni rapes the terran to death. will we ever see a stop to this monster?
will thomas ever be handicapped enough to fall? we'll find out as the final handicap is...
...
NO ZEALOTS!
OH SHIT
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the final handicaps, as shauni faces a zerg on neo harmony, are:
1. hes drunk
2. 6 gates max
3. no observers
4. no sound
5. no storm
6. no rallies
7. no zealots
no zeals + no storm for pvz?
glhf
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On September 21 2009 06:10 cunninglinguists wrote:
the final handicaps, as shauni faces a zerg TERRAN on neo harmony, are:
1. hes drunk
2. 6 gates max
3. no observers
4. no sound
5. no storm
6. no rallies
7. no zealots
no zeals + no storm for pvz?
glhf
EDIT: azerg TERRAN on neo harmony Chupung Reyoung
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is the stream video working for anyone?
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pripple
Finland1714 Posts
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(...)
no zeals + no storm for pvz?
(...)
reaver + sair / goon+reaver
But TvP it is even worse - only choice mid-late game would be carriers. Combine this with no observers to counter wraiths, gl.
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On September 21 2009 06:10 cunninglinguists wrote:
the final handicaps, as shauni faces a zerg on neo harmony, are:
1. hes drunk
2. 6 gates max
3. no observers
4. no sound
5. no storm
6. no rallies
7. no zealots
no zeals + no storm for pvz?
glhf
So he's basically  Rock?
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shauni's large army of only dts and dragoons has been recalled to the nat of the terran.
On September 21 2009 06:24 SonuvBob wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2009 06:10 cunninglinguists wrote:
the final handicaps, as shauni faces a zerg on neo harmony, are:
1. hes drunk
2. 6 gates max
3. no observers
4. no sound
5. no storm
6. no rallies
7. no zealots
no zeals + no storm for pvz?
glhf So he's basically Rock?
lol
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lol, iamdisco blames alcohol for his loss.
gg
shauni prevails.
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pripple
Finland1714 Posts
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I missed this.
I gotta wait for VOD.
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Yeah, this is his final person.
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is the VOD going to be avaliable at youtube like the chill vs combat-ex series? casue i cant watch anything in livestream T_T
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I don't see how you can win against any half-decent zerg without observer or storm.
Edit: ok, now I know.
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I cant believe he won with all thoese handicaps. sick
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Lol, how did he win with all those handicaps? :D D- players or what?
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Last games were quite awesome, can't believe he won with all those handicaps :p
Looking forward for next go
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On September 21 2009 07:05 Holgerius wrote:
Lol, how did he win with all those handicaps? :D D- players or what?
Obviously around D level :p
I think i might have had a chance at the very end since i'm a genuine D @ 75 apm and crap multitasking .. but i bet other guys expected to win aswell :D
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i wish we could have seen something truly unique, such as allied ai or worker sacrifice.
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pripple
Finland1714 Posts
thanks for this event, was fun to watch, congrats to Shauni!
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On September 21 2009 07:18 cunninglinguists wrote:
i wish we could have seen something truly unique, such as allied ai or worker sacrifice.
Minesweeping with mass dts was something you don't see every day...
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Yeah it went easier than I thought, but I think most of them were D+/C-. The main handicap for me wasn't any of the handicaps for themselves, it was being forced to think about them all the time. As an example, I usually spam rally points for gates a lot, so when it's not allowed anymore I have consciously make every action instead of unconsciously like I'm used to. It makes me a lot slower than usual and not as focused. Improvising strats without certain units isn't difficult at all with my experience...
Even though the games might not have been the best, thanks for watching guys...
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On September 21 2009 07:22 Pyrthas wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2009 07:18 cunninglinguists wrote:
i wish we could have seen something truly unique, such as allied ai or worker sacrifice. Minesweeping with mass dts was something you don't see every day...
yeah but it happens. but when's the last time you saw 12 of a player's workers run to the opponent's base every 3 minutes?
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Great event, hope to see part 2 soon. But here are a few things to look for:
- Make sure you have all the maps
- If you're doing double comentating make sure that both of you are loud enough
- If you choose Ret as next challenger plz force him somehow to stream himself. Double Vision would be great =)
- Maybe rebuild the randomize map in 8 steps:
first trigger for step 1 (easy) - no sound, no upgrades etc.
step 2 (more challanging) - no ralleys etc.
step 3 even harder etc.
.
.
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up to trigger 8 (ultra hard) - Ally AI, first worker kill etc.
- to make it more exiting let player with higher ranks play the last games
Nevertheless, I fully enjoyed it
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If ret's next, we need more zerg-specific handicaps. Hmm... some of the ones Ideas posted are good, like the no less than one larva or no ovie ups.
More suggestions:
-no muta stacking w/ larva or ovie.
-must have at least one drone building at all times
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On September 21 2009 07:58 cakemanofdoom wrote:
If ret's next, we need more zerg-specific handicaps. Hmm... some of the ones Ideas posted are good, like the no less than one larva or no ovie ups.
More suggestions:
-no muta stacking w/ larva or ovie.
-must have at least one drone building at all times
Another idea: every hatchery has to be at a mining base (i.e. every hatchery has to be for mineral gathering purposes, max 1 per expansion area)
Or, no more than one building morphing at a time
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if the next contestant is a zerg:
1. can't evolve beyond lair tech
2. no zergling speed
3. no muta stacking
4. must use hydras in all three matchups (would make for some dope zvz)
5. no swarm
6. limit of 5 hatcheries
if the next contestant is a terran:
1. no siege mode in any matchup
2. no medics
3. no charon boosters
4. no scans
5. no stim
6. no vult speed
7. no mines
8. no bunkers
9. no dropships
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handicap for terran should be "must use ghosts"
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I hope the ondemand/ youtube gets put up soon, it was pretty fun.
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are the results and handicaps posted somewhere? i couldn't find it in either thread
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Handicaps for Zerg.
No Overlord Speed.
A Hatchery Cap.
Extractor Cap.
No Ling Speed.
No Adrenal Glands.
No Control Groups.
No carapace/melee/ranged/spire ups.
Any hatches have to be upgraded to hives at different bases before they can get mined to.
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How about no OL scouting?
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Netherlands6142 Posts
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What about a wildcard handicap of 'offrace'? :D
Would clear all other handicaps that had been drawn up to that point but they must offrace for the remainder of the tourney.
Could be good and get it midway or towards the end or it could happen at the start and they'd have to offrace as well as have handicaps
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On September 21 2009 17:49 iCCup.deL wrote:What about a wildcard handicap of 'offrace'? :D Would clear all other handicaps that had been drawn up to that point but they must offrace for the remainder of the tourney. Could be good and get it midway or towards the end or it could happen at the start and they'd have to offrace as well as have handicaps
Its a good idea, but many people have high level offraces, while others dont play their offraces at all so it'd be too big of a disadvantage. Also most of the handicaps are race specific it seemed
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/4136/tlarena.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/167_Fantasy%20II.jpg)
