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I realize there is already a thread on this subject, but I did not want to hijack it.
First, I can't stand going vs fast expo toss players; it makes me sick to think players would rely on such luck (relative positions on the map). Second, it's extremely hard to go against at far positions (for me, at least). This situation happens too irregularly to have sufficient practice against it, so I feel the person who is used to going 12-14 nexus will always have a big advantage, so it will be their "game to lose."
So, why create a new thread? My tvp opening is a little different than most, presenting different options to choose from after scouting the fast expo:
To the point: I get an academy at around 21 supply and open 1 factory. After scouting the 12-14 nexus, I have been getting stim and rallying marines/medics and tanks/vults to their natural. The problem is, as indicated, far positions: I feel as if I have to micro perfectly to win, and that is not a burden I want to continue to feel.
Since I don't get to practice versus this enough, and I hate feeling as if my next encounter versus this will be a loss and so on and so on, I need a new perspective on how to approach this problem.
The only things that come to mind for me are to try a 2 rax and 1 factory attack, or a 2 factory and 1 rax attack.
I want a strategy that involves killing them or gaining an adv (kiling the expo) -- I hate conceding that they will have an adv and just trying to minimize it by getting my expo asap.
Ideas or replays would be appreciated. And yes, I will always have a fast academy, so I feel that has to be utilized.
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i think the idea that you ALWAYS have to have a fast academy is wrong. if you scout and see the 12-14 nex, my biggest fear when playing toss is just a really well microed push. with M&Ms, if toss can rush dt's and waste terrans scans, it totally repels the attack.
when i play terran see this, i just rush my CC after 1fac or follow suit with CC after rax instead of getting that fac initially.
im not the best, but i believe sc revolves around your ability to adapt your build to suit fighting off opponents builds. if they are at far positions, you dont necessarily have to punish them right off the bat and can follow with a fast expo of your own.
this is just my two cents.
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I have conceded that they will have an adv and just expoed myself and won vs some "good" players. But, the point is, I don't agree with it. I think it's wrong and relies on them "losing the game." When you go fast comsat and get mines, dts are what you want them to go.
To me, disagreeing with fast comsat is like me disagreeing with you scouting your opponents' base every game. It's never a lot of fun wasting money on threats that don't or won't exist (static d), and ,ofc, not playing blindly is always easier. That's another issue though.
My only hope is that a stronger attack than what I'm currently using can be suggested. I'm not a micro player, so I feel I need a little room for error. Hopefully that is possible.
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have u tried bamboo rush?
*edit*
ive also seen a rush against 13 nex where terran sent M&M + 1-2 scvs for turrets followed by tanks to destroy nex/contain toss/ etc etc
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Idra would have 12 nexused if you played him i bet.
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O wow, I haven't tried the bamboo rush since Nostalgia was a used map. Nice mention, as it is only like the strongest tvp rush, but it has been so long I'm not sure I even remember exactly what it consist of. I will have to look for some gundam games and try to do this with the addition of m&m (maybe not get stim or something). Yeah, I have been doing the m&m with pure tanks, sometimes, but if the toss player micros well, it's very tricky. Just have had a hard time finding the right timing at far positions.
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On May 23 2009 09:07 SkepTicAL wrote:
Idra would have 12 nexused if you played him i bet.
Lol. And I'm sure that would have been 2 fold: 1) to spite me! 2) he is smart and realizes how imbalanced 12 nexus is.
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Well if it's something like colosseum you could scout cross-positions and/or scout after depot. Even if you did have some anti-12nex build, you want to know they're doing it as soon as possible anyway. Also it has the advantage of catching proxies.
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On May 23 2009 08:59 piratebay wrote:
have u tried bamboo rush?
*edit*
ive also seen a rush against 13 nex where terran sent M&M + 1-2 scvs for turrets followed by tanks to destroy nex/contain toss/ etc etc
This is vultures with mines+siege isnt it?
In which case i like to turret and bunker outside the choke while hitting the nexus.
it really owns throw in some supply depots to block and youre good to go :D
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if you dont bbs and protoss has a brain you have to play with a disadvantage, theres no way around it. any rush can be dealt with if they react properly and micro well.
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and do NOT 2 fac. double nex is a hard counter to 2 fac, it becomes ridiculously allin and their production kicks in before any kind of decent 2 fac hits.
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Bunker rush + proxy fact with mines while making your own expansion.
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As I said in the last thread, the fnatic.never 11/11 7 marine FD works wonders vs 13 Nex. Also the NaDa FD is good too.
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On May 23 2009 10:19 IdrA wrote:
and do NOT 2 fac. double nex is a hard counter to 2 fac, it becomes ridiculously allin and their production kicks in before any kind of decent 2 fac hits.
Didn't you respond with a 2 Factory build to Oystein's 12 Nexus in the first game in sc2gg-starleague or am I confusing something?
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I do an 8 marine / scv / 1 siege tank push with a bunker rush and siege mode research so i can contain them for awhile after taking the 2nex...then i put down 2CC and engin bay asap. Expect them to do some kind of all-in or cost effective tech (dt/reaver) and watch out for elevator shuttle tricks.
Most conventional Terran builds wont counter a 12 nex (all things being equal). A hard rush is the best solution imho, because 12 nex depends on you giving them time...sure you could try to chase their tech but that is playing right into their hands...unless you're Flash.
I'm sure dropship play or vulture play could pull off a win too but these are super all-in.
*if it's Colosseum or something, you should be the one doing a macro build anyway.
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Whatever you do, get mines asap. That's pretty much the most important thing. And your own expo.
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On May 23 2009 11:11 d1v wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 10:19 IdrA wrote:
and do NOT 2 fac. double nex is a hard counter to 2 fac, it becomes ridiculously allin and their production kicks in before any kind of decent 2 fac hits. Didn't you respond with a 2 Factory build to Oystein's 12 Nexus in the first game in sc2gg-starleague or am I confusing something?
andromedas double nex to the min only is an unusual situation, you can trap them up the ramp and siege everything from the low ground
if they do it on blue storm you can 2 fac with one proxied as well, though its not as strong.
but 99% of the time 2 fac is not a good counter.
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On May 23 2009 12:48 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 11:11 d1v wrote:On May 23 2009 10:19 IdrA wrote:
and do NOT 2 fac. double nex is a hard counter to 2 fac, it becomes ridiculously allin and their production kicks in before any kind of decent 2 fac hits. Didn't you respond with a 2 Factory build to Oystein's 12 Nexus in the first game in sc2gg-starleague or am I confusing something? andromedas double nex to the min only is an unusual situation, you can trap them up the ramp and siege everything from the low ground if they do it on blue storm you can 2 fac with one proxied as well, though its not as strong. but 99% of the time 2 fac is not a good counter.
Ok, thanks for the clarification, I think I see the difference. How do you deal with a 12 Nexus then? Like you did in Game 2 vs Oystein?
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if you're vs someone worse than you ya just fac cc and deal with the fact that you have to out play them
if theyre better than you its a really shitty situation, if you scout it late you basically just have to go fast exp and hope that they go fast reaver/dt and you defend it completely to make up a bit of the advantage. if you scout them fast you can do the 6-8 scv + rine/vulture bunker rush to kill the nexus, but if they just save their probes they still end up ahead.
its really quite ridiculous in general.
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On May 23 2009 13:33 IdrA wrote:
if you're vs someone worse than you ya just fac cc and deal with the fact that you have to out play them
if theyre better than you its a really shitty situation, if you scout it late you basically just have to go fast exp and hope that they go fast reaver/dt and you defend it completely to make up a bit of the advantage. if you scout them fast you can do the 6-8 scv + rine/vulture bunker rush to kill the nexus, but if they just save their probes they still end up ahead.
its really quite ridiculous in general.
What about port builds? Punish the toss's later obs tech with mines in their base? This works kinda well vs 1gate zlot nexus that I see from time to time....should work with 12nex right?
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if you catch them off guard it can work but you have so few units relative to them that you basically have to get mines on top of their ramp with their entire army trapped outside to end up in good shape.
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There were some iccup reps that showed Light[alive] responding brilliantly to 14 nex (vs selector). Unfortunately, the reps aren't available anymore and I don't have them. If anyone has them, it shows the same response to 14 nex in 2 games, and in both games, light ruthlessly outmacro's the protoss, despite the start. It seemed like he did something along the lines of staying on 1 fact and getting a really quick 3rd followed by a timing push.
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A powerful build you should try is Stylish's Strong FD.
It gives you a 2-fac strength initial push (7-8 marines, 2 tanks with ur first vult following, a couple scvs) with slower reinforcements. If you properly micro this, you can more or less trade your first wave of units for the first wave of goons of a 2 gate.
Thus, this build seems advantageous to me for many reasons: 1- it comes out faster than a 2 fac, which allows you to hit before he has a chance to get as many units. 2- it has just about the power of the initial 2 fac attack on your first engagement. 3- your expo is not nearly as delayed as it is in a 2 fac, so it isn't an all in. I think the expo is about 30 seconds slower than on a regular FD, so it is actually a fairly fast expo considering the power it gives you.
you really should learn this build, as it is great against most FE builds (1 gate in particular).
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On May 23 2009 14:43 OMin wrote:
A powerful build you should try is Stylish's Strong FD.
It gives you a 2-fac strength initial push (7-8 marines, 2 tanks with ur first vult following, a couple scvs) with slower reinforcements. If you properly micro this, you can more or less trade your first wave of units for the first wave of goons of a 2 gate.
Thus, this build seems advantageous to me for many reasons: 1- it comes out faster than a 2 fac, which allows you to hit before he has a chance to get as many units. 2- it has just about the power of the initial 2 fac attack on your first engagement. 3- your expo is not nearly as delayed as it is in a 2 fac, so it isn't an all in. I think the expo is about 30 seconds slower than on a regular FD, so it is actually a fairly fast expo considering the power it gives you.
you really should learn this build, as it is great against most FE builds (1 gate in particular).
qft
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it was in a who is who iccup thread
the reps should be there
he contained toss with mines and took both his nat and the min only. Map was blue storm.
Replying to nevake's post
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On May 23 2009 14:43 OMin wrote:
A powerful build you should try is Stylish's Strong FD.
It gives you a 2-fac strength initial push (7-8 marines, 2 tanks with ur first vult following, a couple scvs) with slower reinforcements. If you properly micro this, you can more or less trade your first wave of units for the first wave of goons of a 2 gate.
Thus, this build seems advantageous to me for many reasons: 1- it comes out faster than a 2 fac, which allows you to hit before he has a chance to get as many units. 2- it has just about the power of the initial 2 fac attack on your first engagement. 3- your expo is not nearly as delayed as it is in a 2 fac, so it isn't an all in. I think the expo is about 30 seconds slower than on a regular FD, so it is actually a fairly fast expo considering the power it gives you.
you really should learn this build, as it is great against most FE builds (1 gate in particular).
its not stylish's, and its not good vs double nex. if protoss cuts a probe they have 6 goons a zealot and range when your attack gets there on a medium+ size map, meaning you're gonna do absolutely nothing.
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On May 23 2009 14:32 nevake wrote:
There were some iccup reps that showed Light[alive] responding brilliantly to 14 nex (vs selector). Unfortunately, the reps aren't available anymore and I don't have them. If anyone has them, it shows the same response to 14 nex in 2 games, and in both games, light ruthlessly outmacro's the protoss, despite the start. It seemed like he did something along the lines of staying on 1 fact and getting a really quick 3rd followed by a timing push.
..?
so i saw luxury rape the piss out of strelok
zvt is pretty easy right?
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On May 23 2009 15:59 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 14:43 OMin wrote:
A powerful build you should try is Stylish's Strong FD.
It gives you a 2-fac strength initial push (7-8 marines, 2 tanks with ur first vult following, a couple scvs) with slower reinforcements. If you properly micro this, you can more or less trade your first wave of units for the first wave of goons of a 2 gate.
Thus, this build seems advantageous to me for many reasons: 1- it comes out faster than a 2 fac, which allows you to hit before he has a chance to get as many units. 2- it has just about the power of the initial 2 fac attack on your first engagement. 3- your expo is not nearly as delayed as it is in a 2 fac, so it isn't an all in. I think the expo is about 30 seconds slower than on a regular FD, so it is actually a fairly fast expo considering the power it gives you.
you really should learn this build, as it is great against most FE builds (1 gate in particular). its not stylish's, and its not good vs double nex. if protoss cuts a probe they have 6 goons a zealot and range when your attack gets there on a medium+ size map, meaning you're gonna do absolutely nothing.
It has been working for me, I don't know about pro level though but I've seen progamers use this strat vs 14nexus aswell on maps without ramps usually.
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On May 23 2009 16:54 StylishVODs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 15:59 IdrA wrote:On May 23 2009 14:43 OMin wrote:
A powerful build you should try is Stylish's Strong FD.
It gives you a 2-fac strength initial push (7-8 marines, 2 tanks with ur first vult following, a couple scvs) with slower reinforcements. If you properly micro this, you can more or less trade your first wave of units for the first wave of goons of a 2 gate.
Thus, this build seems advantageous to me for many reasons: 1- it comes out faster than a 2 fac, which allows you to hit before he has a chance to get as many units. 2- it has just about the power of the initial 2 fac attack on your first engagement. 3- your expo is not nearly as delayed as it is in a 2 fac, so it isn't an all in. I think the expo is about 30 seconds slower than on a regular FD, so it is actually a fairly fast expo considering the power it gives you.
you really should learn this build, as it is great against most FE builds (1 gate in particular). its not stylish's, and its not good vs double nex. if protoss cuts a probe they have 6 goons a zealot and range when your attack gets there on a medium+ size map, meaning you're gonna do absolutely nothing. It has been working for me, I don't know about pro level though but I've seen progamers use this strat vs 14nexus aswell on maps without ramps usually.
you play bad players. flash has used it vs kal and reach. reach is reach, flash is flash(and reach still ended up in decent position), and kal was greedy so he got range and his 3rd round of goons late. which other pros have used it succesfully?
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is there a particular reason why we don't see 12nexus more in proleague/starleagues? it seems the pros outweigh the cons most of the time.
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On May 23 2009 17:13 Gliche wrote:
is there a particular reason why we don't see 12nexus more in proleague/starleagues? it seems the pros outweigh the cons most of the time.
because stork vs flash on katrina in osl finals is what happens when you get a reputation for it.
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On May 23 2009 17:31 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 17:13 Gliche wrote:
is there a particular reason why we don't see 12nexus more in proleague/starleagues? it seems the pros outweigh the cons most of the time. because stork vs flash on katrina in osl finals is what happens when you get a reputation for it.
Flash is such a crazy motherfucker
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I appreciate your insight, idra. Though, I fear you are confirming what I have suspected to be true, but I was holding out for a brighter outlook.
Versus players inferior to what you play against, the only thing I've had decent success with at far positions is a fake bunker rush (shouldn't be able to complete) to get them to take their probes off their nat expo to attack (slowing their eco adv), then following it up with a vulture(s) to feign a vulture and marine all-in counter. Then after the situation looks like you had to retreat due to them squelching your plans, I lay a few mines to a) keep them in the dark and still have to worry about a frontal assault with a siege tank follow up. b) to have knowledge of a counter attempt. Then I proceed with the plan: a vulture drop while expoing.
I'm curious if you ever use anything like this and if you still feel just going for your expo asap is a better alternative. The glaring negative to me is the strategy mentioned is obviously a deception strat, so if they are aware of it, or if you are playing the guy in a bo7 and he likes his 12 nexus, you are still going to have to rely on just taking your expo asap it seems.
After hearing your thoughts, the only last desperation strategy it seems for me to try would be to send my scouting scv to the middle of the map to make a proxy rax (after scouting fast expo) and rally my units to the proxy rax and eventually go with a 1 fac, 2 rax timing attack with stim and range.
Probably wishful thinking on my part and me being in denial over this, while you speak of facts, so I guess I will have to accept that and learn how to play better than all of my opponents, even when at a dis adv. If only skill could be taught 
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On May 23 2009 08:34 MachineHead wrote:
I realize there is already a thread on this subject, but I did not want to hijack it.
First, I can't stand going vs fast expo toss players; it makes me sick to think players would rely on such luck (relative positions on the map). Second, it's extremely hard to go against at far positions (for me, at least). This situation happens too irregularly to have sufficient practice against it, so I feel the person who is used to going 12-14 nexus will always have a big advantage, so it will be their "game to lose."
So, why create a new thread? My tvp opening is a little different than most, presenting different options to choose from after scouting the fast expo:
To the point: I get an academy at around 21 supply and open 1 factory. After scouting the 12-14 nexus, I have been getting stim and rallying marines/medics and tanks/vults to their natural. The problem is, as indicated, far positions: I feel as if I have to micro perfectly to win, and that is not a burden I want to continue to feel.
Since I don't get to practice versus this enough, and I hate feeling as if my next encounter versus this will be a loss and so on and so on, I need a new perspective on how to approach this problem.
The only things that come to mind for me are to try a 2 rax and 1 factory attack, or a 2 factory and 1 rax attack.
I want a strategy that involves killing them or gaining an adv (kiling the expo) -- I hate conceding that they will have an adv and just trying to minimize it by getting my expo asap.
Ideas or replays would be appreciated. And yes, I will always have a fast academy, so I feel that has to be utilized.
The reason you suck is that you arent using strategies that have been tweaked for years.
It's funny because you try to act professional and formal, which is good, but you dont know what youre talking about.
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On May 23 2009 22:14 MachineHead wrote:I appreciate your insight, idra. Though, I fear you are confirming what I have suspected to be true, but I was holding out for a brighter outlook. Versus players inferior to what you play against, the only thing I've had decent success with at far positions is a fake bunker rush (shouldn't be able to complete) to get them to take their probes off their nat expo to attack (slowing their eco adv), then following it up with a vulture(s) to feign a vulture and marine all-in counter. Then after the situation looks like you had to retreat due to them squelching your plans, I lay a few mines to a) keep them in the dark and still have to worry about a frontal assault with a siege tank follow up. b) to have knowledge of a counter attempt. Then I proceed with the plan: a vulture drop while expoing. I'm curious if you ever use anything like this and if you still feel just going for your expo asap is a better alternative. The glaring negative to me is the strategy mentioned is obviously a deception strat, so if they are aware of it, or if you are playing the guy in a bo7 and he likes his 12 nexus, you are still going to have to rely on just taking your expo asap it seems. After hearing your thoughts, the only last desperation strategy it seems for me to try would be to send my scouting scv to the middle of the map to make a proxy rax (after scouting fast expo) and rally my units to the proxy rax and eventually go with a 1 fac, 2 rax timing attack with stim and range. Probably wishful thinking on my part and me being in denial over this, while you speak of facts, so I guess I will have to accept that and learn how to play better than all of my opponents, even when at a dis adv. If only skill could be taught
God man...Fail. This is just full of fail. I was looking for a nicer way to say it, but seriously.
Go learn standard TvP builds please, then you can start learning how to deal with the different toss openings.
EDIT: fast acad...why?
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On May 23 2009 23:41 SoulMarine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 08:34 MachineHead wrote:
I realize there is already a thread on this subject, but I did not want to hijack it.
First, I can't stand going vs fast expo toss players; it makes me sick to think players would rely on such luck (relative positions on the map). Second, it's extremely hard to go against at far positions (for me, at least). This situation happens too irregularly to have sufficient practice against it, so I feel the person who is used to going 12-14 nexus will always have a big advantage, so it will be their "game to lose."
So, why create a new thread? My tvp opening is a little different than most, presenting different options to choose from after scouting the fast expo:
To the point: I get an academy at around 21 supply and open 1 factory. After scouting the 12-14 nexus, I have been getting stim and rallying marines/medics and tanks/vults to their natural. The problem is, as indicated, far positions: I feel as if I have to micro perfectly to win, and that is not a burden I want to continue to feel.
Since I don't get to practice versus this enough, and I hate feeling as if my next encounter versus this will be a loss and so on and so on, I need a new perspective on how to approach this problem.
The only things that come to mind for me are to try a 2 rax and 1 factory attack, or a 2 factory and 1 rax attack.
I want a strategy that involves killing them or gaining an adv (kiling the expo) -- I hate conceding that they will have an adv and just trying to minimize it by getting my expo asap.
Ideas or replays would be appreciated. And yes, I will always have a fast academy, so I feel that has to be utilized. The reason you suck is that you arent using strategies that have been tweaked for years. It's funny because you try to act professional and formal, which is good, but you dont know what youre talking about.
If I knew what I was talking about I probably wouldn't have to ask for help? I have watched a lot of games and I haven't seen anyone use a strategy that stops 14 nexus well (depends on the map), so why would I be inclined to make the same mistakes? If something is proven to be ineffective, then there is not much to lose by venturing away from it.
I think it is ridiculous that someone would go into a help thread and then say what you did, but... not bless me with your obviously vast and profound knowledge on the subject. You either have no point, or your point is to be an ass instead of being helpful which you lead me to believe you know a lot more than me.
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On May 24 2009 00:17 Piy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 22:14 MachineHead wrote:I appreciate your insight, idra. Though, I fear you are confirming what I have suspected to be true, but I was holding out for a brighter outlook. Versus players inferior to what you play against, the only thing I've had decent success with at far positions is a fake bunker rush (shouldn't be able to complete) to get them to take their probes off their nat expo to attack (slowing their eco adv), then following it up with a vulture(s) to feign a vulture and marine all-in counter. Then after the situation looks like you had to retreat due to them squelching your plans, I lay a few mines to a) keep them in the dark and still have to worry about a frontal assault with a siege tank follow up. b) to have knowledge of a counter attempt. Then I proceed with the plan: a vulture drop while expoing. I'm curious if you ever use anything like this and if you still feel just going for your expo asap is a better alternative. The glaring negative to me is the strategy mentioned is obviously a deception strat, so if they are aware of it, or if you are playing the guy in a bo7 and he likes his 12 nexus, you are still going to have to rely on just taking your expo asap it seems. After hearing your thoughts, the only last desperation strategy it seems for me to try would be to send my scouting scv to the middle of the map to make a proxy rax (after scouting fast expo) and rally my units to the proxy rax and eventually go with a 1 fac, 2 rax timing attack with stim and range. Probably wishful thinking on my part and me being in denial over this, while you speak of facts, so I guess I will have to accept that and learn how to play better than all of my opponents, even when at a dis adv. If only skill could be taught God man...Fail. This is just full of fail. I was looking for a nicer way to say it, but seriously. Go learn standard TvP builds please, then you can start learning how to deal with the different toss openings. EDIT: fast acad...why?
I made a help request regarding one specific situation, so why infer that my style is full of fail and that I must need to learn another way, as if I am not aware or experienced with other styles.
One strategy and 1 relative spawning location when doing that strategy gives me trouble. So I can only assume that you have no trouble versus any protoss strategies. Perhaps you could upload some replays that would be beneficial. Really, there is no sense in attacking anything when you can't provide a better alternative.
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Hey Idra,
How would you counter 12 nex presuming you scout it at a reasonable time? (maybe when the second gate and core is getting warped in?)
I'm not too sure what that time would be but I think you'll get what I'm asking.
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I have never gone above C+
I usually go for fact - port because rushing it out is reaally hard for me..
I make two dropships with tanks 2 vultures and four marines.. Idea is to drop off the vults at the edge of his base place mines and then just battle it off...
I usually win because I manage to get many probes and when he runs his units into his base to defend he loses alot more then me.
If there's an island I always drop an SCV there with my first dropship.
viable?
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I guess the real lesson in this thread is to 12 nex 100% vs Idra 
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Except that Idra doesn't play against bad players.
I've seen substantially better players micro a BO to victory versus the BO's own hard counter.
I could imagine a pro winning with 2 fact vs. 2 nex just to get the game over with quicker.
Anyways, back to the thread at hand, four questions I'd like to raise.
1) what puts you more at an economic disadvantage as the Terran. Scouting earlier than normal every game to prevent the toss from getting away with a free advantage by going 12 nex, or allowing any toss to go ahead and 12 nex versus you and face the fact that you have to play slightly gimped every time you face this bo?
2) I've seen 12 nex being very goon heavy early on (on par with 2 gate goon with different timings.)
Would a 2 fact/1fact build work better if you pushed out with siege first? or atleast push out with mines and siege well on its way. It seems plausible with how many rines one has to support the tanks. I've seen flash do this before with early game success. He eventually lost his advantage to a flank on the contain but that was only possible because of a well timed shuttle popping out right before the robo fell.
3) This question is for Idra or any other experienced enough player to know and not just speculate out his or her ass. How viable is a 14CC with good scv micro versus anything other than a double nex opening from a toss with good goon micro?
4) and finally, is 12 nex safe enough to be considered "standard"?
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On May 24 2009 21:29 Dr lowenstein PhD wrote:
Except that Idra doesn't play against bad players.
I've seen substantially better players micro a BO to victory versus the BO's own hard counter.
I could imagine a pro winning with 2 fact vs. 2 nex just to get the game over with quicker.
Anyways, back to the thread at hand, four questions I'd like to raise.
1) what puts you more at an economic disadvantage as the Terran. Scouting earlier than normal every game to prevent the toss from getting away with a free advantage by going 12 nex, or allowing any toss to go ahead and 12 nex versus you and face the fact that you have to play slightly gimped every time you face this bo?
2) I've seen 12 nex being very goon heavy early on (on par with 2 gate goon with different timings.)
Would a 2 fact/1fact build work better if you pushed out with siege first? or atleast push out with mines and siege well on its way. It seems plausible with how many rines one has to support the tanks. I've seen flash do this before with early game success. He eventually lost his advantage to a flank on the contain but that was only possible because of a well timed shuttle popping out right before the robo fell.
3) This question is for Idra or any other experienced enough player to know and not just speculate out his or her ass. How viable is a 14CC with good scv micro versus anything other than a double nex opening from a toss with good goon micro?
4) and finally, is 12 nex safe enough to be considered "standard"?
i dont see a 14cc ever being safe against toss unless
a) he's terrible
b) he 14nexs
zealots are going to be shitting all over your scvs a long time before you have marines, as will goons.
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ive seen 14 cc used by boxer once on longinus. It was the game where after he went to the army his first prelim msl match vs this toss. Its a famous game where he dropped a ghost in the walls behind toss's nat and nuked the toss's nexus. Boxer survived with barely any damage had to bring a few scvs to repair though.
I remember seeing idra trying the build on colosseum 2 vs stork. He lost to early pressure but think that was more being nervous on stage than the actual build being bad.
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14cc vs 14nex on colloseum is awesomeness:D
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14 cc on God's Garden TvP is a must !
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12 nex is a hard counter to 2 fact? Since when? The P has to rely on really good micro and even at the pro level people use 2 fact to punish fast nexus builds on close distances. On far distances, yea, its not good.
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2 fac doesnt beat 12 nex dude, they cut 1 round or if they are unsure of their micro 2 rounds of probes and got like 7 or 8 goons down the ramp with a pylon in front.
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you can just cut/pull some probes to kill off the 2fact and you'll be ahead. when I used to play terran, and the protoss 12nexus'd I'd do some 3fact complete all in(sometimes it worked), but it made me quit terran because they'd just get dts and I'd die.
edit: personally i think the best way to counter this is to do some awesome probe killing harrassment while keeping up with your macro and expanding. that's the easiest way to get back into the game.
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But in practice Protoss doesn't assume that Terran will go 2 factory and thus won't cut probes and actually will build a zealot or two in the beginning?
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14 cc is doable on really big maps, free loss vs any kind of center gate thing and whatnot of course, and not easy vs any zealot first builds.. and its really easy for protoss to abuse in general, but alot of that abuse is kinda risky.
imagine how hard it is to defend really dedicated fast tech builds, like fastest possible dt drop or a reaver bulldog or something. now imagine trying to do that with 1.5(?) less tanks. but if you do block it the games over. they can 1 gate double exp immediately upon scouting, and tbh i never use 14 cc just cuz its so risky but i imagine that leaves a timing window if terran hits it perfectly, like the way hwasin played vs best (fast arb instead of a third nex, but same principle) on return of the king.
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Norway28665 Posts
attacking with 1 rax rines, several scvs and 2 fact vult without addon has always seemed best to me. get addon after the first 4 vults or so, but you normally shouldnt need mines nor speed before that.
rine+scv+vult beats small numbers of goons, probes cant help fight that much cuz they get raped by vults, get bunker going and you're good. you just can't bring so many scvs that he ends up advantaged from sending away probes and sacrificing nexus.
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On May 23 2009 16:00 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 14:32 nevake wrote:
There were some iccup reps that showed Light[alive] responding brilliantly to 14 nex (vs selector). Unfortunately, the reps aren't available anymore and I don't have them. If anyone has them, it shows the same response to 14 nex in 2 games, and in both games, light ruthlessly outmacro's the protoss, despite the start. It seemed like he did something along the lines of staying on 1 fact and getting a really quick 3rd followed by a timing push. ..? so i saw luxury rape the piss out of strelok zvt is pretty easy right?
Well, despite the level difference, it's not wrong to learn the correct response from a pro gamer right? Especially from light, who's a top tier terran. What I meant to say in my post was not that "14 nex is ez, just do what light did" but "here are some good replays that show a correct response".
The replays were uploaded on rapidshare and are no longer available.
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On May 25 2009 01:04 StylishVODs wrote:
14cc vs 14nex on colloseum is awesomeness:D
But then you find out they 10/15 gated ...
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Russian Federation386 Posts
What I do when I see no gate expo is rush with 6-7 SCV all rines I have and vult rallied and continues to pump rine/vult.
Usually I kill their nat and get a dropship for vult drop. I'm D+/C- iCCup.
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On May 25 2009 18:19 nevake wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 16:00 IdrA wrote:On May 23 2009 14:32 nevake wrote:
There were some iccup reps that showed Light[alive] responding brilliantly to 14 nex (vs selector). Unfortunately, the reps aren't available anymore and I don't have them. If anyone has them, it shows the same response to 14 nex in 2 games, and in both games, light ruthlessly outmacro's the protoss, despite the start. It seemed like he did something along the lines of staying on 1 fact and getting a really quick 3rd followed by a timing push. ..? so i saw luxury rape the piss out of strelok zvt is pretty easy right? Well, despite the level difference, it's not wrong to learn the correct response from a pro gamer right? Especially from light, who's a top tier terran. What I meant to say in my post was not that "14 nex is ez, just do what light did" but "here are some good replays that show a correct response". The replays were uploaded on rapidshare and are no longer available.
the thing is light could have gone defensive 2 fac and outmacroed some random foreigner's double nexus, people will not be doing optimal strategies when theyre in a situation where the game doesnt matter and they know their opponent is really bad.
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true..
an example of this was bisu's bnet attack when he went 3 gate goon on python to finish off the game instead of the standard 2 gate + robo tech into 3gate goon.
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On May 25 2009 20:07 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2009 01:04 StylishVODs wrote:
14cc vs 14nex on colloseum is awesomeness:D But then you find out they 10/15 gated ...
blah 14cc > 10/15 if you micro those SCVs.
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Lol of course;)
Wait youre not serious are you?
Nahh, can't be.
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I checked the timings yesterday of both T and P on destination using a clock vs a comp.
played the game on FAST setting instead of FASTEST setting (easier on me to get the BOs perfect) so the times might be different, but the relative times of P and T are the same regardless of setting.
double nex
2:25 2nd nex (starts warping in that is)
2:48 first gate
3:27 core
3:56 2nd gate
4:52 zealot pops out
5:40 2 goons pop out
6:28 2 goons pop out
7:01 goon range completes.
7:16 2 goons pop out
7:16 6 ranged goons, a zealot and a bunch of probes if necessary defend
in regards to strong FD,
2:13 rax and gas
3:23 fact
3:43 1st rine pops out
4:31 machine shop
5:44 first tank pops out
6:10 8th rine pops out
6:29 second tank pops out
time it took to get a tank from the nat ramp to the opponent's nat was 50sec
7:19 2 tanks 8 rines 1 vult (one on its way) 6 mines and 1 to 2 scvs attack
Do note that i did not include time it takes to get to one's ramp for either P or T because it depends where you place your buildings. Generally though, this will make the gap between toss' defense and terran's attack marginally larger.
conclusion:
imo strong FD isn't enough; especially given that 4 ranged goons can easily snipe rines while the terran is pushing out.
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I often lose to bunker rush, like Idra did vs PJ on ESL.
Though not always.
When I was terran, my response was to usually skip tank, make 4 vultures and drop them on protoss base to abuse the lack of obs.
check a game of mTm- vs tcatseye in Luna.
http://reps.ru/replays.php?replay=comment&id=3656#
Unfortunately it wont dl. But maybe you can find it somewhere else.
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EPT
