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I realize there is already a thread on this subject, but I did not want to hijack it.
First, I can't stand going vs fast expo toss players; it makes me sick to think players would rely on such luck (relative positions on the map). Second, it's extremely hard to go against at far positions (for me, at least). This situation happens too irregularly to have sufficient practice against it, so I feel the person who is used to going 12-14 nexus will always have a big advantage, so it will be their "game to lose."
So, why create a new thread? My tvp opening is a little different than most, presenting different options to choose from after scouting the fast expo:
To the point: I get an academy at around 21 supply and open 1 factory. After scouting the 12-14 nexus, I have been getting stim and rallying marines/medics and tanks/vults to their natural. The problem is, as indicated, far positions: I feel as if I have to micro perfectly to win, and that is not a burden I want to continue to feel.
Since I don't get to practice versus this enough, and I hate feeling as if my next encounter versus this will be a loss and so on and so on, I need a new perspective on how to approach this problem.
The only things that come to mind for me are to try a 2 rax and 1 factory attack, or a 2 factory and 1 rax attack.
I want a strategy that involves killing them or gaining an adv (kiling the expo) -- I hate conceding that they will have an adv and just trying to minimize it by getting my expo asap.
Ideas or replays would be appreciated. And yes, I will always have a fast academy, so I feel that has to be utilized.
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i think the idea that you ALWAYS have to have a fast academy is wrong. if you scout and see the 12-14 nex, my biggest fear when playing toss is just a really well microed push. with M&Ms, if toss can rush dt's and waste terrans scans, it totally repels the attack.
when i play terran see this, i just rush my CC after 1fac or follow suit with CC after rax instead of getting that fac initially.
im not the best, but i believe sc revolves around your ability to adapt your build to suit fighting off opponents builds. if they are at far positions, you dont necessarily have to punish them right off the bat and can follow with a fast expo of your own.
this is just my two cents.
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I have conceded that they will have an adv and just expoed myself and won vs some "good" players. But, the point is, I don't agree with it. I think it's wrong and relies on them "losing the game." When you go fast comsat and get mines, dts are what you want them to go.
To me, disagreeing with fast comsat is like me disagreeing with you scouting your opponents' base every game. It's never a lot of fun wasting money on threats that don't or won't exist (static d), and ,ofc, not playing blindly is always easier. That's another issue though.
My only hope is that a stronger attack than what I'm currently using can be suggested. I'm not a micro player, so I feel I need a little room for error. Hopefully that is possible.
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have u tried bamboo rush?
*edit*
ive also seen a rush against 13 nex where terran sent M&M + 1-2 scvs for turrets followed by tanks to destroy nex/contain toss/ etc etc
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Idra would have 12 nexused if you played him i bet.
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O wow, I haven't tried the bamboo rush since Nostalgia was a used map. Nice mention, as it is only like the strongest tvp rush, but it has been so long I'm not sure I even remember exactly what it consist of. I will have to look for some gundam games and try to do this with the addition of m&m (maybe not get stim or something). Yeah, I have been doing the m&m with pure tanks, sometimes, but if the toss player micros well, it's very tricky. Just have had a hard time finding the right timing at far positions.
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On May 23 2009 09:07 SkepTicAL wrote:
Idra would have 12 nexused if you played him i bet.
Lol. And I'm sure that would have been 2 fold: 1) to spite me! 2) he is smart and realizes how imbalanced 12 nexus is.
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Well if it's something like colosseum you could scout cross-positions and/or scout after depot. Even if you did have some anti-12nex build, you want to know they're doing it as soon as possible anyway. Also it has the advantage of catching proxies.
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On May 23 2009 08:59 piratebay wrote:
have u tried bamboo rush?
*edit*
ive also seen a rush against 13 nex where terran sent M&M + 1-2 scvs for turrets followed by tanks to destroy nex/contain toss/ etc etc
This is vultures with mines+siege isnt it?
In which case i like to turret and bunker outside the choke while hitting the nexus.
it really owns throw in some supply depots to block and youre good to go :D
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if you dont bbs and protoss has a brain you have to play with a disadvantage, theres no way around it. any rush can be dealt with if they react properly and micro well.
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and do NOT 2 fac. double nex is a hard counter to 2 fac, it becomes ridiculously allin and their production kicks in before any kind of decent 2 fac hits.
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Bunker rush + proxy fact with mines while making your own expansion.
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As I said in the last thread, the fnatic.never 11/11 7 marine FD works wonders vs 13 Nex. Also the NaDa FD is good too.
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On May 23 2009 10:19 IdrA wrote:
and do NOT 2 fac. double nex is a hard counter to 2 fac, it becomes ridiculously allin and their production kicks in before any kind of decent 2 fac hits.
Didn't you respond with a 2 Factory build to Oystein's 12 Nexus in the first game in sc2gg-starleague or am I confusing something?
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I do an 8 marine / scv / 1 siege tank push with a bunker rush and siege mode research so i can contain them for awhile after taking the 2nex...then i put down 2CC and engin bay asap. Expect them to do some kind of all-in or cost effective tech (dt/reaver) and watch out for elevator shuttle tricks.
Most conventional Terran builds wont counter a 12 nex (all things being equal). A hard rush is the best solution imho, because 12 nex depends on you giving them time...sure you could try to chase their tech but that is playing right into their hands...unless you're Flash.
I'm sure dropship play or vulture play could pull off a win too but these are super all-in.
*if it's Colosseum or something, you should be the one doing a macro build anyway.
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Whatever you do, get mines asap. That's pretty much the most important thing. And your own expo.
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On May 23 2009 11:11 d1v wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 10:19 IdrA wrote:
and do NOT 2 fac. double nex is a hard counter to 2 fac, it becomes ridiculously allin and their production kicks in before any kind of decent 2 fac hits. Didn't you respond with a 2 Factory build to Oystein's 12 Nexus in the first game in sc2gg-starleague or am I confusing something?
andromedas double nex to the min only is an unusual situation, you can trap them up the ramp and siege everything from the low ground
if they do it on blue storm you can 2 fac with one proxied as well, though its not as strong.
but 99% of the time 2 fac is not a good counter.
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On May 23 2009 12:48 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 11:11 d1v wrote:On May 23 2009 10:19 IdrA wrote:
and do NOT 2 fac. double nex is a hard counter to 2 fac, it becomes ridiculously allin and their production kicks in before any kind of decent 2 fac hits. Didn't you respond with a 2 Factory build to Oystein's 12 Nexus in the first game in sc2gg-starleague or am I confusing something? andromedas double nex to the min only is an unusual situation, you can trap them up the ramp and siege everything from the low ground if they do it on blue storm you can 2 fac with one proxied as well, though its not as strong. but 99% of the time 2 fac is not a good counter.
Ok, thanks for the clarification, I think I see the difference. How do you deal with a 12 Nexus then? Like you did in Game 2 vs Oystein?
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if you're vs someone worse than you ya just fac cc and deal with the fact that you have to out play them
if theyre better than you its a really shitty situation, if you scout it late you basically just have to go fast exp and hope that they go fast reaver/dt and you defend it completely to make up a bit of the advantage. if you scout them fast you can do the 6-8 scv + rine/vulture bunker rush to kill the nexus, but if they just save their probes they still end up ahead.
its really quite ridiculous in general.
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EPT
