EPT
[H] TVP going vs 12-14 nexus (fast expo) - Page 3
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Louder
United States2276 Posts
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Dr lowenstein PhD
9 Posts
I've seen substantially better players micro a BO to victory versus the BO's own hard counter. I could imagine a pro winning with 2 fact vs. 2 nex just to get the game over with quicker. Anyways, back to the thread at hand, four questions I'd like to raise. 1) what puts you more at an economic disadvantage as the Terran. Scouting earlier than normal every game to prevent the toss from getting away with a free advantage by going 12 nex, or allowing any toss to go ahead and 12 nex versus you and face the fact that you have to play slightly gimped every time you face this bo? 2) I've seen 12 nex being very goon heavy early on (on par with 2 gate goon with different timings.) Would a 2 fact/1fact build work better if you pushed out with siege first? or atleast push out with mines and siege well on its way. It seems plausible with how many rines one has to support the tanks. I've seen flash do this before with early game success. He eventually lost his advantage to a flank on the contain but that was only possible because of a well timed shuttle popping out right before the robo fell. 3) This question is for Idra or any other experienced enough player to know and not just speculate out his or her ass. How viable is a 14CC with good scv micro versus anything other than a double nex opening from a toss with good goon micro? 4) and finally, is 12 nex safe enough to be considered "standard"? | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On May 24 2009 21:29 Dr lowenstein PhD wrote: Except that Idra doesn't play against bad players. I've seen substantially better players micro a BO to victory versus the BO's own hard counter. I could imagine a pro winning with 2 fact vs. 2 nex just to get the game over with quicker. Anyways, back to the thread at hand, four questions I'd like to raise. 1) what puts you more at an economic disadvantage as the Terran. Scouting earlier than normal every game to prevent the toss from getting away with a free advantage by going 12 nex, or allowing any toss to go ahead and 12 nex versus you and face the fact that you have to play slightly gimped every time you face this bo? 2) I've seen 12 nex being very goon heavy early on (on par with 2 gate goon with different timings.) Would a 2 fact/1fact build work better if you pushed out with siege first? or atleast push out with mines and siege well on its way. It seems plausible with how many rines one has to support the tanks. I've seen flash do this before with early game success. He eventually lost his advantage to a flank on the contain but that was only possible because of a well timed shuttle popping out right before the robo fell. 3) This question is for Idra or any other experienced enough player to know and not just speculate out his or her ass. How viable is a 14CC with good scv micro versus anything other than a double nex opening from a toss with good goon micro? 4) and finally, is 12 nex safe enough to be considered "standard"? i dont see a 14cc ever being safe against toss unless a) he's terrible b) he 14nexs zealots are going to be shitting all over your scvs a long time before you have marines, as will goons. | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17726 Posts
I remember seeing idra trying the build on colosseum 2 vs stork. He lost to early pressure but think that was more being nervous on stage than the actual build being bad. | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
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FieryBalrog
United States1381 Posts
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4Servy
Netherlands1542 Posts
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tobi9999
United States1966 Posts
edit: personally i think the best way to counter this is to do some awesome probe killing harrassment while keeping up with your macro and expanding. that's the easiest way to get back into the game. | ||
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Sublimis
Sweden70 Posts
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
imagine how hard it is to defend really dedicated fast tech builds, like fastest possible dt drop or a reaver bulldog or something. now imagine trying to do that with 1.5(?) less tanks. but if you do block it the games over. they can 1 gate double exp immediately upon scouting, and tbh i never use 14 cc just cuz its so risky but i imagine that leaves a timing window if terran hits it perfectly, like the way hwasin played vs best (fast arb instead of a third nex, but same principle) on return of the king. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28665 Posts
rine+scv+vult beats small numbers of goons, probes cant help fight that much cuz they get raped by vults, get bunker going and you're good. you just can't bring so many scvs that he ends up advantaged from sending away probes and sacrificing nexus. | ||
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ketomai
United States2789 Posts
On May 23 2009 16:00 IdrA wrote: ..? so i saw luxury rape the piss out of strelok zvt is pretty easy right? Well, despite the level difference, it's not wrong to learn the correct response from a pro gamer right? Especially from light, who's a top tier terran. What I meant to say in my post was not that "14 nex is ez, just do what light did" but "here are some good replays that show a correct response". The replays were uploaded on rapidshare and are no longer available. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On May 25 2009 01:04 StylishVODs wrote: 14cc vs 14nex on colloseum is awesomeness:D But then you find out they 10/15 gated ...  | ||
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eX-Corgh
Russian Federation386 Posts
Usually I kill their nat and get a dropship for vult drop. I'm D+/C- iCCup. | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On May 25 2009 18:19 nevake wrote: Well, despite the level difference, it's not wrong to learn the correct response from a pro gamer right? Especially from light, who's a top tier terran. What I meant to say in my post was not that "14 nex is ez, just do what light did" but "here are some good replays that show a correct response". The replays were uploaded on rapidshare and are no longer available. the thing is light could have gone defensive 2 fac and outmacroed some random foreigner's double nexus, people will not be doing optimal strategies when theyre in a situation where the game doesnt matter and they know their opponent is really bad. | ||
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Dr lowenstein PhD
9 Posts
an example of this was bisu's bnet attack when he went 3 gate goon on python to finish off the game instead of the standard 2 gate + robo tech into 3gate goon. | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
On May 25 2009 20:07 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: But then you find out they 10/15 gated ... blah 14cc > 10/15 if you micro those SCVs. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
Wait youre not serious are you? Nahh, can't be. | ||
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Dr lowenstein PhD
9 Posts
played the game on FAST setting instead of FASTEST setting (easier on me to get the BOs perfect) so the times might be different, but the relative times of P and T are the same regardless of setting. double nex 2:25 2nd nex (starts warping in that is) 2:48 first gate 3:27 core 3:56 2nd gate 4:52 zealot pops out 5:40 2 goons pop out 6:28 2 goons pop out 7:01 goon range completes. 7:16 2 goons pop out 7:16 6 ranged goons, a zealot and a bunch of probes if necessary defend in regards to strong FD, 2:13 rax and gas 3:23 fact 3:43 1st rine pops out 4:31 machine shop 5:44 first tank pops out 6:10 8th rine pops out 6:29 second tank pops out time it took to get a tank from the nat ramp to the opponent's nat was 50sec 7:19 2 tanks 8 rines 1 vult (one on its way) 6 mines and 1 to 2 scvs attack Do note that i did not include time it takes to get to one's ramp for either P or T because it depends where you place your buildings. Generally though, this will make the gap between toss' defense and terran's attack marginally larger. conclusion: imo strong FD isn't enough; especially given that 4 ranged goons can easily snipe rines while the terran is pushing out. | ||
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