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On May 23 2009 13:33 IdrA wrote:
if you're vs someone worse than you ya just fac cc and deal with the fact that you have to out play them
if theyre better than you its a really shitty situation, if you scout it late you basically just have to go fast exp and hope that they go fast reaver/dt and you defend it completely to make up a bit of the advantage. if you scout them fast you can do the 6-8 scv + rine/vulture bunker rush to kill the nexus, but if they just save their probes they still end up ahead.
its really quite ridiculous in general.
What about port builds? Punish the toss's later obs tech with mines in their base? This works kinda well vs 1gate zlot nexus that I see from time to time....should work with 12nex right?
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if you catch them off guard it can work but you have so few units relative to them that you basically have to get mines on top of their ramp with their entire army trapped outside to end up in good shape.
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There were some iccup reps that showed Light[alive] responding brilliantly to 14 nex (vs selector). Unfortunately, the reps aren't available anymore and I don't have them. If anyone has them, it shows the same response to 14 nex in 2 games, and in both games, light ruthlessly outmacro's the protoss, despite the start. It seemed like he did something along the lines of staying on 1 fact and getting a really quick 3rd followed by a timing push.
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A powerful build you should try is Stylish's Strong FD.
It gives you a 2-fac strength initial push (7-8 marines, 2 tanks with ur first vult following, a couple scvs) with slower reinforcements. If you properly micro this, you can more or less trade your first wave of units for the first wave of goons of a 2 gate.
Thus, this build seems advantageous to me for many reasons: 1- it comes out faster than a 2 fac, which allows you to hit before he has a chance to get as many units. 2- it has just about the power of the initial 2 fac attack on your first engagement. 3- your expo is not nearly as delayed as it is in a 2 fac, so it isn't an all in. I think the expo is about 30 seconds slower than on a regular FD, so it is actually a fairly fast expo considering the power it gives you.
you really should learn this build, as it is great against most FE builds (1 gate in particular).
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On May 23 2009 14:43 OMin wrote:
A powerful build you should try is Stylish's Strong FD.
It gives you a 2-fac strength initial push (7-8 marines, 2 tanks with ur first vult following, a couple scvs) with slower reinforcements. If you properly micro this, you can more or less trade your first wave of units for the first wave of goons of a 2 gate.
Thus, this build seems advantageous to me for many reasons: 1- it comes out faster than a 2 fac, which allows you to hit before he has a chance to get as many units. 2- it has just about the power of the initial 2 fac attack on your first engagement. 3- your expo is not nearly as delayed as it is in a 2 fac, so it isn't an all in. I think the expo is about 30 seconds slower than on a regular FD, so it is actually a fairly fast expo considering the power it gives you.
you really should learn this build, as it is great against most FE builds (1 gate in particular).
qft
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it was in a who is who iccup thread
the reps should be there
he contained toss with mines and took both his nat and the min only. Map was blue storm.
Replying to nevake's post
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On May 23 2009 14:43 OMin wrote:
A powerful build you should try is Stylish's Strong FD.
It gives you a 2-fac strength initial push (7-8 marines, 2 tanks with ur first vult following, a couple scvs) with slower reinforcements. If you properly micro this, you can more or less trade your first wave of units for the first wave of goons of a 2 gate.
Thus, this build seems advantageous to me for many reasons: 1- it comes out faster than a 2 fac, which allows you to hit before he has a chance to get as many units. 2- it has just about the power of the initial 2 fac attack on your first engagement. 3- your expo is not nearly as delayed as it is in a 2 fac, so it isn't an all in. I think the expo is about 30 seconds slower than on a regular FD, so it is actually a fairly fast expo considering the power it gives you.
you really should learn this build, as it is great against most FE builds (1 gate in particular).
its not stylish's, and its not good vs double nex. if protoss cuts a probe they have 6 goons a zealot and range when your attack gets there on a medium+ size map, meaning you're gonna do absolutely nothing.
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On May 23 2009 14:32 nevake wrote:
There were some iccup reps that showed Light[alive] responding brilliantly to 14 nex (vs selector). Unfortunately, the reps aren't available anymore and I don't have them. If anyone has them, it shows the same response to 14 nex in 2 games, and in both games, light ruthlessly outmacro's the protoss, despite the start. It seemed like he did something along the lines of staying on 1 fact and getting a really quick 3rd followed by a timing push.
..?
so i saw luxury rape the piss out of strelok
zvt is pretty easy right?
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On May 23 2009 15:59 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 14:43 OMin wrote:
A powerful build you should try is Stylish's Strong FD.
It gives you a 2-fac strength initial push (7-8 marines, 2 tanks with ur first vult following, a couple scvs) with slower reinforcements. If you properly micro this, you can more or less trade your first wave of units for the first wave of goons of a 2 gate.
Thus, this build seems advantageous to me for many reasons: 1- it comes out faster than a 2 fac, which allows you to hit before he has a chance to get as many units. 2- it has just about the power of the initial 2 fac attack on your first engagement. 3- your expo is not nearly as delayed as it is in a 2 fac, so it isn't an all in. I think the expo is about 30 seconds slower than on a regular FD, so it is actually a fairly fast expo considering the power it gives you.
you really should learn this build, as it is great against most FE builds (1 gate in particular). its not stylish's, and its not good vs double nex. if protoss cuts a probe they have 6 goons a zealot and range when your attack gets there on a medium+ size map, meaning you're gonna do absolutely nothing.
It has been working for me, I don't know about pro level though but I've seen progamers use this strat vs 14nexus aswell on maps without ramps usually.
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On May 23 2009 16:54 StylishVODs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 15:59 IdrA wrote:On May 23 2009 14:43 OMin wrote:
A powerful build you should try is Stylish's Strong FD.
It gives you a 2-fac strength initial push (7-8 marines, 2 tanks with ur first vult following, a couple scvs) with slower reinforcements. If you properly micro this, you can more or less trade your first wave of units for the first wave of goons of a 2 gate.
Thus, this build seems advantageous to me for many reasons: 1- it comes out faster than a 2 fac, which allows you to hit before he has a chance to get as many units. 2- it has just about the power of the initial 2 fac attack on your first engagement. 3- your expo is not nearly as delayed as it is in a 2 fac, so it isn't an all in. I think the expo is about 30 seconds slower than on a regular FD, so it is actually a fairly fast expo considering the power it gives you.
you really should learn this build, as it is great against most FE builds (1 gate in particular). its not stylish's, and its not good vs double nex. if protoss cuts a probe they have 6 goons a zealot and range when your attack gets there on a medium+ size map, meaning you're gonna do absolutely nothing. It has been working for me, I don't know about pro level though but I've seen progamers use this strat vs 14nexus aswell on maps without ramps usually.
you play bad players. flash has used it vs kal and reach. reach is reach, flash is flash(and reach still ended up in decent position), and kal was greedy so he got range and his 3rd round of goons late. which other pros have used it succesfully?
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is there a particular reason why we don't see 12nexus more in proleague/starleagues? it seems the pros outweigh the cons most of the time.
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On May 23 2009 17:13 Gliche wrote:
is there a particular reason why we don't see 12nexus more in proleague/starleagues? it seems the pros outweigh the cons most of the time.
because stork vs flash on katrina in osl finals is what happens when you get a reputation for it.
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On May 23 2009 17:31 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 17:13 Gliche wrote:
is there a particular reason why we don't see 12nexus more in proleague/starleagues? it seems the pros outweigh the cons most of the time. because stork vs flash on katrina in osl finals is what happens when you get a reputation for it.
Flash is such a crazy motherfucker
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I appreciate your insight, idra. Though, I fear you are confirming what I have suspected to be true, but I was holding out for a brighter outlook.
Versus players inferior to what you play against, the only thing I've had decent success with at far positions is a fake bunker rush (shouldn't be able to complete) to get them to take their probes off their nat expo to attack (slowing their eco adv), then following it up with a vulture(s) to feign a vulture and marine all-in counter. Then after the situation looks like you had to retreat due to them squelching your plans, I lay a few mines to a) keep them in the dark and still have to worry about a frontal assault with a siege tank follow up. b) to have knowledge of a counter attempt. Then I proceed with the plan: a vulture drop while expoing.
I'm curious if you ever use anything like this and if you still feel just going for your expo asap is a better alternative. The glaring negative to me is the strategy mentioned is obviously a deception strat, so if they are aware of it, or if you are playing the guy in a bo7 and he likes his 12 nexus, you are still going to have to rely on just taking your expo asap it seems.
After hearing your thoughts, the only last desperation strategy it seems for me to try would be to send my scouting scv to the middle of the map to make a proxy rax (after scouting fast expo) and rally my units to the proxy rax and eventually go with a 1 fac, 2 rax timing attack with stim and range.
Probably wishful thinking on my part and me being in denial over this, while you speak of facts, so I guess I will have to accept that and learn how to play better than all of my opponents, even when at a dis adv. If only skill could be taught 
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On May 23 2009 08:34 MachineHead wrote:
I realize there is already a thread on this subject, but I did not want to hijack it.
First, I can't stand going vs fast expo toss players; it makes me sick to think players would rely on such luck (relative positions on the map). Second, it's extremely hard to go against at far positions (for me, at least). This situation happens too irregularly to have sufficient practice against it, so I feel the person who is used to going 12-14 nexus will always have a big advantage, so it will be their "game to lose."
So, why create a new thread? My tvp opening is a little different than most, presenting different options to choose from after scouting the fast expo:
To the point: I get an academy at around 21 supply and open 1 factory. After scouting the 12-14 nexus, I have been getting stim and rallying marines/medics and tanks/vults to their natural. The problem is, as indicated, far positions: I feel as if I have to micro perfectly to win, and that is not a burden I want to continue to feel.
Since I don't get to practice versus this enough, and I hate feeling as if my next encounter versus this will be a loss and so on and so on, I need a new perspective on how to approach this problem.
The only things that come to mind for me are to try a 2 rax and 1 factory attack, or a 2 factory and 1 rax attack.
I want a strategy that involves killing them or gaining an adv (kiling the expo) -- I hate conceding that they will have an adv and just trying to minimize it by getting my expo asap.
Ideas or replays would be appreciated. And yes, I will always have a fast academy, so I feel that has to be utilized.
The reason you suck is that you arent using strategies that have been tweaked for years.
It's funny because you try to act professional and formal, which is good, but you dont know what youre talking about.
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On May 23 2009 22:14 MachineHead wrote:I appreciate your insight, idra. Though, I fear you are confirming what I have suspected to be true, but I was holding out for a brighter outlook. Versus players inferior to what you play against, the only thing I've had decent success with at far positions is a fake bunker rush (shouldn't be able to complete) to get them to take their probes off their nat expo to attack (slowing their eco adv), then following it up with a vulture(s) to feign a vulture and marine all-in counter. Then after the situation looks like you had to retreat due to them squelching your plans, I lay a few mines to a) keep them in the dark and still have to worry about a frontal assault with a siege tank follow up. b) to have knowledge of a counter attempt. Then I proceed with the plan: a vulture drop while expoing. I'm curious if you ever use anything like this and if you still feel just going for your expo asap is a better alternative. The glaring negative to me is the strategy mentioned is obviously a deception strat, so if they are aware of it, or if you are playing the guy in a bo7 and he likes his 12 nexus, you are still going to have to rely on just taking your expo asap it seems. After hearing your thoughts, the only last desperation strategy it seems for me to try would be to send my scouting scv to the middle of the map to make a proxy rax (after scouting fast expo) and rally my units to the proxy rax and eventually go with a 1 fac, 2 rax timing attack with stim and range. Probably wishful thinking on my part and me being in denial over this, while you speak of facts, so I guess I will have to accept that and learn how to play better than all of my opponents, even when at a dis adv. If only skill could be taught
God man...Fail. This is just full of fail. I was looking for a nicer way to say it, but seriously.
Go learn standard TvP builds please, then you can start learning how to deal with the different toss openings.
EDIT: fast acad...why?
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On May 23 2009 23:41 SoulMarine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 08:34 MachineHead wrote:
I realize there is already a thread on this subject, but I did not want to hijack it.
First, I can't stand going vs fast expo toss players; it makes me sick to think players would rely on such luck (relative positions on the map). Second, it's extremely hard to go against at far positions (for me, at least). This situation happens too irregularly to have sufficient practice against it, so I feel the person who is used to going 12-14 nexus will always have a big advantage, so it will be their "game to lose."
So, why create a new thread? My tvp opening is a little different than most, presenting different options to choose from after scouting the fast expo:
To the point: I get an academy at around 21 supply and open 1 factory. After scouting the 12-14 nexus, I have been getting stim and rallying marines/medics and tanks/vults to their natural. The problem is, as indicated, far positions: I feel as if I have to micro perfectly to win, and that is not a burden I want to continue to feel.
Since I don't get to practice versus this enough, and I hate feeling as if my next encounter versus this will be a loss and so on and so on, I need a new perspective on how to approach this problem.
The only things that come to mind for me are to try a 2 rax and 1 factory attack, or a 2 factory and 1 rax attack.
I want a strategy that involves killing them or gaining an adv (kiling the expo) -- I hate conceding that they will have an adv and just trying to minimize it by getting my expo asap.
Ideas or replays would be appreciated. And yes, I will always have a fast academy, so I feel that has to be utilized. The reason you suck is that you arent using strategies that have been tweaked for years. It's funny because you try to act professional and formal, which is good, but you dont know what youre talking about.
If I knew what I was talking about I probably wouldn't have to ask for help? I have watched a lot of games and I haven't seen anyone use a strategy that stops 14 nexus well (depends on the map), so why would I be inclined to make the same mistakes? If something is proven to be ineffective, then there is not much to lose by venturing away from it.
I think it is ridiculous that someone would go into a help thread and then say what you did, but... not bless me with your obviously vast and profound knowledge on the subject. You either have no point, or your point is to be an ass instead of being helpful which you lead me to believe you know a lot more than me.
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On May 24 2009 00:17 Piy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 22:14 MachineHead wrote:I appreciate your insight, idra. Though, I fear you are confirming what I have suspected to be true, but I was holding out for a brighter outlook. Versus players inferior to what you play against, the only thing I've had decent success with at far positions is a fake bunker rush (shouldn't be able to complete) to get them to take their probes off their nat expo to attack (slowing their eco adv), then following it up with a vulture(s) to feign a vulture and marine all-in counter. Then after the situation looks like you had to retreat due to them squelching your plans, I lay a few mines to a) keep them in the dark and still have to worry about a frontal assault with a siege tank follow up. b) to have knowledge of a counter attempt. Then I proceed with the plan: a vulture drop while expoing. I'm curious if you ever use anything like this and if you still feel just going for your expo asap is a better alternative. The glaring negative to me is the strategy mentioned is obviously a deception strat, so if they are aware of it, or if you are playing the guy in a bo7 and he likes his 12 nexus, you are still going to have to rely on just taking your expo asap it seems. After hearing your thoughts, the only last desperation strategy it seems for me to try would be to send my scouting scv to the middle of the map to make a proxy rax (after scouting fast expo) and rally my units to the proxy rax and eventually go with a 1 fac, 2 rax timing attack with stim and range. Probably wishful thinking on my part and me being in denial over this, while you speak of facts, so I guess I will have to accept that and learn how to play better than all of my opponents, even when at a dis adv. If only skill could be taught God man...Fail. This is just full of fail. I was looking for a nicer way to say it, but seriously. Go learn standard TvP builds please, then you can start learning how to deal with the different toss openings. EDIT: fast acad...why?
I made a help request regarding one specific situation, so why infer that my style is full of fail and that I must need to learn another way, as if I am not aware or experienced with other styles.
One strategy and 1 relative spawning location when doing that strategy gives me trouble. So I can only assume that you have no trouble versus any protoss strategies. Perhaps you could upload some replays that would be beneficial. Really, there is no sense in attacking anything when you can't provide a better alternative.
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Hey Idra,
How would you counter 12 nex presuming you scout it at a reasonable time? (maybe when the second gate and core is getting warped in?)
I'm not too sure what that time would be but I think you'll get what I'm asking.
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I have never gone above C+
I usually go for fact - port because rushing it out is reaally hard for me..
I make two dropships with tanks 2 vultures and four marines.. Idea is to drop off the vults at the edge of his base place mines and then just battle it off...
I usually win because I manage to get many probes and when he runs his units into his base to defend he loses alot more then me.
If there's an island I always drop an SCV there with my first dropship.
viable?
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EPT
